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Declassified: How 1 Navy pilot shot down 4 ACTUAL Rooskies (and maybe 6) in a single 30 minute dogfight in Korea

AUS-97HORN

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AUS-97HORN

AUS-97HORN 11798

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So... holy shit, I was about to post the original article I got this from  until the article itself sent me to an even MORE detailed version of the events where it turns out that Lt Williams ended up ALONE vs 7 fucking Soviet Union MIGs  and when it was all over with, Williams limped back to his carrier, and only 1 MIG returned to base

Lt. Royce Williams 1 vs 7 Dogfight over Korea 8 planes enter, 2 leave for home

 

The Newspaper article that gives much more detail of the specific mission

amrica+fuckyeah.jpg?format=750w

 

Now THIS sounds like it should be made into a freaking movie.    a THIRTY MINUTE DOGFIGHT!!!!! “Before that, the longest one was five minutes,” (making this one officially the longest dogfight ever)

We dont make too many movies about Korea... Americans dont like being reminded of war where almost 37,000 died in a tie.

The Navy doesnt hadn't done much dogfighting in Korea (that was left to the Air Force), and this was one of the few incidents where a Navy pilot had an aerial victory.

How crazy to be Lt. Williams: you pants and splash 4 actual Soviet Union MIG-15's while piloting an inferior aircraft to the MIGs, your plane is shot to shit, you barely make it back to your carrier... and rather than being able to celebrate almost becoming an Ace in 1 day, your Admiral tells you the event is now classified and you cant talk about it ever again. 

Even though he had  3 confirmed and 1 probable, he was given credit for 1 MiG and awarded the Silver Star.  Now an effort is being made to get him a CMOH.

 

Quote

On Nov. 18, 1952, during the Korean War, Navy Lt. Royce Williams, along with three other pilots from his fighter squadron, VF-781, launched from the USS Oriskany into the stormy skies over the Sea of Japan. There were more than 250,000 sorties flown by the Navy during the conflict, but the ensuing engagement would end in one of the great feats of aerial combat, even if it was covered up for decades due to the tense political environment of the Cold War. 

On this mission, Williams squared off against seven pilots from the Soviet Air Force, flying one of the most advanced jet fighters of the time, and walked away with three confirmed kills and one probable that was later confirmed.

Comparable to the U.S. Air Force F-86, the MiGs outclassed Williams’ Panther in speed, maneuverability, climb rate, and the weapons range. While the Navy had scored some early kills against the MiGs, their mission had switched to one of mostly ground attack

It was then that the national security implications of the encounter began to take hold. While Soviet volunteers were known to be flying in Korea, Williams had engaged the actual Soviet Air Force. Furthermore, his flight had been made aware of the Soviet jets based on intelligence from a small detachment from the National Security Agency — then less than a year old — operating on one of the other ships in the task force. 

Williams was informed by Navy Adm. Robert Briscoe, commander of Naval Forces Far East, that while it was confirmed he had shot down three and possibly four MiGs, he was not to discuss the engagement with anyone, ever. 

Which is what Williams did. Through the rest of his career — another 23 years including 110 missions in Vietnam — the only official record of the engagement was Williams’ one confirmed kill and a Silver Star. Two of the other pilots in Williams’ flight that day also received credit for downing enemy aircraft.

[AUS-97 Note] considering that there were only 4 fucking American planes, and 2  RTB'd right as the engagement happened, and William's wingman  "broke away and safely returned to the fleet", Williams was the only pilot left in the sky and unless his wingman bagged a MIG before he left, Williams is the only other guy who could have shot down the 5 or 6 lost MIGs- Also - WTF man, you abandoned your fucking wingman????[/AUS-97 Note]

 

 

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AUS-97HORN

AUS-97HORN 11798

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and "ACTUAL" is highlighted because while yes, Americans had been up against "Volunteer" Russian pilots flying for N Korea or China, these 7 MIGs were actual Soviet Union planes that took off from Russia and were official Russian aircraft, which is why it was kept classified because of the implication of America fighting Russia directly without any "buffer"

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31489

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An unbelievable feat.  Also, a data point that maybe Russia has sucked militarily all along, despite some theoretical advantages.

ETA:  I'm reading some British cold war thrillers ala Clancy, but not as good, where there's a war with Russia and they're fighting NATO to a stalemate with huge losses, so far, mostly in naval and air engagements.  I'm not sure when they were written, but I'm finding some of the Russian "superiority" to be rather incredible, given recent events.

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Dutch

Dutch 4472

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27 minutes ago, Grade of D as in David said:

Korea kill ratio was 12 to 1. In Vietnam it dropped to 3 to 1.

 

Tom Cruise Sunglasses GIF by Paramount Movies

Looks like that in Vietnam our pilots become dependent on missiles.  Lost some of their dogfighting skills.  If only there was a school that could teach air combat maneuvering.

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AUS-97HORN

AUS-97HORN 11798

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40 minutes ago, HouTex said:

OP, Korea wasn’t a tie.  The UN (mostly US) successfully repelled the invading forces.  The goal was never to gain territory in North Korea.  

 

26 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

And, technically, it isn't over yet...

 

y'all motherfuckers need to rewatch Sgt Major Choozhoo and Gunny Highway.  they ended up with, 1 win, 1 loss and 1 tie.   their words not mine.

 

and in all actuality it sure as fuck was a tie.  The original charter of the UN was to repel the N Korean's out of S Korea.  That was accomplished at either the end of Sept or beginning of Oct 1950  *IF*  MacArthur had followed the charter - maybe taken a small amount of strategic high ground territory a few miles North of the original 38th parallel border, and STOPPED.  That would have been a clear victory.

Instead MacArthur assumed that because he had theoretical access to a lot of tactical Nukes (with the Presidents approval), he could always nuke China and Russia if they invaded, so he went full fucking Aggy and charged into N Korea just as winter was beginning with the intent of capturing all of NK (which was NOT part of the charter) and just assumed that Russia and China would just sit back while predominately American forces eliminated NK and were going to stop their forces literally bordering their countries.

He exceeded the charter, ignored all intelligence that China had crossed the Yalu... and then acted shocked when we got our asses handed to us in the middle of one of the worst winters in Korea's history.   we then retreated and spent the better part of 3 more years going back and forth on the peninsula and ending within a few miles of the 38th parallel.

 

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Upgrayedd

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40 minutes ago, AUS-97HORN said:

 

 

y'all motherfuckers need to rewatch Sgt Major Choozhoo and Gunny Highway.  they ended up with, 1 win, 1 loss and 1 tie.   their words not mine.

 

and in all actuality it sure as fuck was a tie.  The original charter of the UN was to repel the N Korean's out of S Korea.  That was accomplished at either the end of Sept or beginning of Oct 1950  *IF*  MacArthur had followed the charter - maybe taken a small amount of strategic high ground territory a few miles North of the original 38th parallel border, and STOPPED.  That would have been a clear victory.

Instead MacArthur assumed that because he had theoretical access to a lot of tactical Nukes (with the Presidents approval), he could always nuke China and Russia if they invaded, so he went full fucking Aggy and charged into N Korea just as winter was beginning with the intent of capturing all of NK (which was NOT part of the charter) and just assumed that Russia and China would just sit back while predominately American forces eliminated NK and were going to stop their forces literally bordering their countries.

He exceeded the charter, ignored all intelligence that China had crossed the Yalu... and then acted shocked when we got our asses handed to us in the middle of one of the worst winters in Korea's history.   we then retreated and spent the better part of 3 more years going back and forth on the peninsula and ending within a few miles of the 38th parallel.

 

f205355e-1aa4-4553-ac38-44c56f582467_tex

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1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

An unbelievable feat.  Also, a data point that maybe Russia has sucked militarily all along, despite some theoretical advantages.

ETA:  I'm reading some British cold war thrillers ala Clancy, but not as good, where there's a war with Russia and they're fighting NATO to a stalemate with huge losses, so far, mostly in naval and air engagements.  I'm not sure when they were written, but I'm finding some of the Russian "superiority" to be rather incredible, given recent events.

How old are you( not fucking with you)

At the height of the Cold War, Clancy's sweet spot, perception was that while US might have been slightly ahead technologically, that the Russians would overwhelm us with numbers.

 

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Eskimohorn

Eskimohorn 5635

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y'all motherfuckers need to rewatch Sgt Major Choozhoo and Gunny Highway.  they ended up with, 1 win, 1 loss and 1 tie.   their words not mine.
 
and in all actuality it sure as fuck was a tie.  The original charter of the UN was to repel the N Korean's out of S Korea.  That was accomplished at either the end of Sept or beginning of Oct 1950  *IF*  MacArthur had followed the charter - maybe taken a small amount of strategic high ground territory a few miles North of the original 38th parallel border, and STOPPED.  That would have been a clear victory.
Instead MacArthur assumed that because he had theoretical access to a lot of tactical Nukes (with the Presidents approval), he could always nuke China and Russia if they invaded, so he went full fucking Aggy and charged into N Korea just as winter was beginning with the intent of capturing all of NK (which was NOT part of the charter) and just assumed that Russia and China would just sit back while predominately American forces eliminated NK and were going to stop their forces literally bordering their countries.
He exceeded the charter, ignored all intelligence that China had crossed the Yalu... and then acted shocked when we got our asses handed to us in the middle of one of the worst winters in Korea's history.   we then retreated and spent the better part of 3 more years going back and forth on the peninsula and ending within a few miles of the 38th parallel.
 

Maybe Truman wasnt such a pussywimp. Seems like MacArthur got his ass handed to him.
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TwiceHorn

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31 minutes ago, slorch said:

How old are you( not fucking with you)

At the height of the Cold War, Clancy's sweet spot, perception was that while US might have been slightly ahead technologically, that the Russians would overwhelm us with numbers.

 

56. That isn't the premise of the books I am reading.  Its Brit authored stuff, but the rooskies are winning air and sea engagements by tech and tactics.  I just looked, the books were written in 1988.

Of course, under the soviets, the tech may have been maintained and trained. 

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Wulaw Horn

Wulaw Horn 19076

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9 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

56. That isn't the premise of the books I am reading.  Its Brit authored stuff, but the rooskies are winning air and sea engagements by tech and tactics.  I just looked, the books were written in 1988.

Of course, under the soviets, the tech may have been maintained and trained. 

They weren’t. 
30 years from now we will see that modern day China was equally inept. 

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