The NBA's GOAT -- MJ? Lebron? The Field?

[Patrick Bateman 3903]

Creating this so we can clear out some of the BS in the Finals thread.  I get it, it's fun to discuss it and this should give everyone a singular place to see what's been said throughout the years.  Obviously the predominant discussion is has Lebron passed Michael as the best player in NBA history?  Of course..... what if MJ isn't the best player in NBA history in the first place?  

Here's an article that came out last year about Lebron vs MJ and evaluating their games through the same number of games.  It would be folly not to contextualize the NBA is a much different landscape then it was for almost every player before 1995.  Almost every player, NBA ready or not, went to school for a number of years, usually 3.  Next, there was a window to go straight to the NBA before they instituted the one and done rule, which is idiotic.  

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/21318089/where-michael-jordan-lebron-james-stack-1072nd-career-game

MJ And LeBron: By The Numbers

MJ		LEBRON
* Regular-season only
15	Seasons	15
706-366 (.659)	Record	716-356 (.668)
41,011	Career minutes	41,688
32,292 (4th)	Career points	29,105 (7th)
30.1	Points per game	27.2
6.2	Rebounds per game	7.3
5.3	Assists per game	7.1
0.8	Blocks per game	0.8
2.3	Steals per game	1.6
31	50-point games	11
28	Triple-doubles	56

MJ And LeBron: The Accolades

MJ		LEBRON
5	MVP awards	4
6	NBA Finals MVP	3
11	All-NBA selections	13
1	Defensive Player of the Year	0
9	All-Defense selections	6
1984-85	Rookie of the Year	2003-04
4	ESPY Best NBA Player	6
1	ESPY Best Male Athlete	3

 

No. 1 Overall Picks As Teammates

MJ	LEBRON
Kwame Brown (2001-03)	Joe Smith (2007-08, 2008-09)
	Shaquille O'Neal (2009-10)
	Greg Oden (2013-14)
	Kyrie Irving (2014-17)
	Andrew Bogut (2016-17)
	Derrick Rose (2017-18)

Perhaps this is a good place to begin..... Or maybe it's someone like Kareem?  Or Wilt?

 

Edited June 5, 2018 by Patrick Bateman

[Catdaddyhorn 3444]

For me it's a matter of highs vs the lows.  MJ & Lebron have similar highs,  however Lebron's lows are too frequent and far too low to matchup positively against Jordan.  Jordan had 1 playoff gm of 15 or fewer points, conversely Lebron has 12. Jordan had playoff 8 gms of 20 or fewer and Lebron has 31. 

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=career&year_min=1985&year_max=2003&is_playoffs=Y&age_min=0&age_max=99&season_start=1&season_end=-1&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&player_id=jordami01&c1stat=pts&c1comp=lt&c1val=15&order_by=pts

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=career&year_min=1985&year_max=2003&is_playoffs=Y&age_min=0&age_max=99&season_start=1&season_end=-1&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&player_id=jordami01&c1stat=pts&c1comp=lt&c1val=15&order_by=pts

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=game&year_min=2004&year_max=2018&is_playoffs=Y&age_min=0&age_max=99&season_start=1&season_end=-1&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&player_id=jamesle01&c1stat=pts&c1comp=lt&c1val=20&order_by=pts

 

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=career&year_min=2004&year_max=2018&is_playoffs=Y&age_min=0&age_max=99&season_start=1&season_end=-1&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&player_id=jamesle01&c1stat=pts&c1comp=lt&c1val=15&order_by=pts

 

[ChiTownDoc 21095]

1 hour ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Creating this so we can clear out some of the BS in the Finals thread.  I get it, it's fun to discuss it and this should give everyone a singular place to see what's been said throughout the years.  Obviously the predominant discussion is has Lebron passed Michael as the best player in NBA history?  Of course..... what if MJ isn't the best player in NBA history in the first place?  

Here's an article that came out last year about Lebron vs MJ and evaluating their games through the same number of games.  It would be folly not to contextualize the NBA is a much different landscape then it was for almost every player before 1995.  Almost every player, NBA ready or not, went to school for a number of years, usually 3.  Next, there was a window to go straight to the NBA before they instituted the one and done rule, which is idiotic.  

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/21318089/where-michael-jordan-lebron-james-stack-1072nd-career-game

MJ And LeBron: By The Numbers

MJ		LEBRON
* Regular-season only
15	Seasons	15
706-366 (.659)	Record	716-356 (.668)
41,011	Career minutes	41,688
32,292 (4th)	Career points	29,105 (7th)
30.1	Points per game	27.2
6.2	Rebounds per game	7.3
5.3	Assists per game	7.1
0.8	Blocks per game	0.8
2.3	Steals per game	1.6
31	50-point games	11
28	Triple-doubles	56

MJ And LeBron: The Accolades

MJ		LEBRON
5	MVP awards	4
6	NBA Finals MVP	3
11	All-NBA selections	13
1	Defensive Player of the Year	0
9	All-Defense selections	6
1984-85	Rookie of the Year	2003-04
4	ESPY Best NBA Player	6
1	ESPY Best Male Athlete	3

 

No. 1 Overall Picks As Teammates

MJ	LEBRON
Kwame Brown (2001-03)	Joe Smith (2007-08, 2008-09)
	Shaquille O'Neal (2009-10)
	Greg Oden (2013-14)
	Kyrie Irving (2014-17)
	Andrew Bogut (2016-17)
	Derrick Rose (2017-18)

Perhaps this is a good place to begin..... Or maybe it's someone like Kareem?  Or Wilt?

 

OP, how old are you?  You give ESPY's some sort of credence?  JFC 

NO, just NO to any Espy shit elevating anyone over anyone else.  Forget that they didn't exist for most of Jordan's career, even if they did, they shouldn't be used as any barometer of anything, ever.  Got Damn. 

Edited June 5, 2018 by ChiTownDoc
Apologies to OP if he just copied that off ESPN site, Fuck ESPN in that case.

[d2o 1602]

Pts are the only thing that matter?   Especially considering that scoring isn't LBJ's best skill its kinda silly to use that as the only criteria.   I'm betting you could probably do that same post for rebs and asts and show the opposite.

[d2o 1602]

2 minutes ago, ChiTownDoc said:

OP, how old are you?  You give ESPY's some sort of credence?  JFC 

NO, just NO to any Espy shit elevating anyone over anyone else.  Forget that they didn't exist for most of Jordan's career, even if they did, they shouldn't be used as any barometer of anything, ever.  Got Damn. 

I don't think he or even ESPYs used that award to make a determination.   ESPN is always throw their awards in something like that.    No one with any sense pays attention to it.

[Vic Mackey 46926]

58 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

For me it's a matter of highs vs the lows.  MJ & Lebron have similar highs,  however Lebron's lows are too frequent and far too low to matchup positively against Jordan.  Jordan had 1 playoff gm of 15 or fewer points, conversely Lebron has 12. Jordan had playoff 8 gms of 20 or fewer and Lebron has 31. 

 

Lows like getting swept in the 1st round? 

[Patrick Bateman 3903]

3 minutes ago, ChiTownDoc said:

OP, how old are you?  You give ESPY's some sort of credence?  JFC 

NO, just NO to any Espy shit elevating anyone over anyone else.  Forget that they didn't exist for most of Jordan's career, even if they did, they shouldn't be used as any barometer of anything, ever.  Got Damn. 

Uhm..... it's in the article, dumbass.  I don't give a fuck about Espys.  How are are you?  Do you understand how the fucking internet works.  

[ChiTownDoc 21095]

1 minute ago, d2o said:

I don't think he or even ESPYs used that award to make a determination.   ESPN is always throw their awards in something like that.    No one with any sense pays attention to it.

Got it.  Apologies.  

 

Anyways, MJ for now.  LBJ is gonna make it a real debate by the end though.  Likely has 5 years of prime/near prime ball left.  Scary what he's gonna end up with stats/awards wise...

[ChiTownDoc 21095]

2 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Uhm..... it's in the article, dumbass.  I don't give a fuck about Espys.  How are are you?  Do you understand how the fucking internet works.  

LOL, relax.  I apologized.  I hate ESPN.  That is all. 

[d2o 1602]

3 minutes ago, ChiTownDoc said:

Got it.  Apologies.  

 

Anyways, MJ for now.  LBJ is gonna make it a real debate by the end though.  Likely has 5 years of prime/near prime ball left.  Scary what he's gonna end up with stats/awards wise...

There will be some that never will admit that LBJ is better.    Many more that won't switch until after LBJ retires.   I do think that if he retires as the all time leading scorer while also being the only player to have 10k rebs and 10k asts he will be the GOAT for me regardless of if he wins another title.

[Thatguy 8492]

5 minutes ago, d2o said:

There will be some that never will admit that LBJ is better.    Many more that won't switch until after LBJ retires.   I do think that if he retires as the all time leading scorer while also being the only player to have 10k rebs and 10k asts he will be the GOAT for me regardless of if he wins another title.

  

 

1 hour ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

For me it's a matter of highs vs the lows.  MJ & Lebron have similar highs,  however Lebron's lows are too frequent and far too low to matchup positively against Jordan.  Jordan had 1 playoff gm of 15 or fewer points, conversely Lebron has 12. Jordan had playoff 8 gms of 20 or fewer and Lebron has 31. 

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=career&year_min=1985&year_max=2003&is_playoffs=Y&age_min=0&age_max=99&season_start=1&season_end=-1&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&player_id=jordami01&c1stat=pts&c1comp=lt&c1val=15&order_by=pts

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=career&year_min=1985&year_max=2003&is_playoffs=Y&age_min=0&age_max=99&season_start=1&season_end=-1&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&player_id=jordami01&c1stat=pts&c1comp=lt&c1val=15&order_by=pts

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=game&year_min=2004&year_max=2018&is_playoffs=Y&age_min=0&age_max=99&season_start=1&season_end=-1&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&player_id=jamesle01&c1stat=pts&c1comp=lt&c1val=20&order_by=pts

 

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=career&year_min=2004&year_max=2018&is_playoffs=Y&age_min=0&age_max=99&season_start=1&season_end=-1&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&player_id=jamesle01&c1stat=pts&c1comp=lt&c1val=15&order_by=pts

 

    You have to take in account how the game was played back in the 80's and 90's. That era was a no zone, one-on-one era. This era, with all it's zones, is the era of outside shooters. So early in Lebron's career he struggled with his jumper, and teams would just wall him off from the rim and go under any picks. Early 30's Lebron has developed a jumpshot, as most vets do, and you cannot leave him open anymore.

[Catdaddyhorn 3444]

37 minutes ago, d2o said:

Pts are the only thing that matter?   Especially considering that scoring isn't LBJ's best skill its kinda silly to use that as the only criteria.   I'm betting you could probably do that same post for rebs and asts and show the opposite.

There are far too many instances of the 2011 finals where Lebeon not only doesn't score but he didnt impact playoff games at all.  In the 2011 finals he scored something ridiculous like 11 total 4th qtr points in the six 4th qtrs combined.  He had a similar wtf performance in the last game of the 2010 eastern conference finals as well.  Admittedly he seems to have gotten over this failing of late,  but this isn't a shallow criticism under the guise of diminishing Lebron. One could argue that his highs actually surpass Jordan with the way he stuffs nearly every category of the game,  but  there's no doubt that Lebron has several examples where you're left wondering what's wrong with him.  

Edited June 5, 2018 by Catdaddyhorn

[ChiTownDoc 21095]

26 minutes ago, d2o said:

There will be some that never will admit that LBJ is better.    Many more that won't switch until after LBJ retires.   I do think that if he retires as the all time leading scorer while also being the only player to have 10k rebs and 10k asts he will be the GOAT for me regardless of if he wins another title.

Yep. I think we’ll see most people have to admit over the entire career Bron is GOAT.  The numbers will be overwhelming.  But peak Jordan run beats LBJ.  

 

I’ve become a big LBJ fan last few years so I think I’m somewhat objective.  

Edited June 5, 2018 by ChiTownDoc

[Goo Punch 4275]

LeBron is the best player ever, but MJ is still the greatest of all time. Bron still has time to catch him though.

[52-80 19070]

All star game MVPs and Olympic medals...terrible metrics with which to judge greatness.

 

And for that reason, Eddie Jones is the greatest basketballer of all time.

 

[Mole 4319]

2 hours ago, ChiTownDoc said:

Yep. I think we’ll see most people have to admit over the entire career Bron is GOAT.  The numbers will be overwhelming.  But peak Jordan run beats LBJ.  

1

It depends on what you mean by peak. It isn't just numbers. By the end, Lebron will probably end up having spent more time as the best player in the league than Jordan. He might have already passed him there. When did Lebron pass Kobe? When did Jordan pass Magic?

They've had pretty similar careers in a number of ways. They both made a statistical leap at 23 and couldn't win the big one until 27. They also both went bald.

Lebron couldn't pull off the three-peat. I think we underestimate how hard it actually is to do that and what a feat it is that Jordan did it twice.  On the other hand, I think in many minds, maybe not so much on a Texas-centric board, those twoish years Jordan missed are considered years that he should have won, so it's almost like he won 6 straight. This, of course, is ridiculous, but it plays into the Jordan mythology. Along the same thought, I think we don't fully appreciate what it takes to make 8 straight Finals. 

I'm inclined to say he's barely not quite there yet based on body of work, but he'll likely get there. In terms of awe-inspiring games and moments, I'm inclined to give it to Lebron now. In game 1 he was nearly 60/40/90 with 51/8/8. Did Jordan ever touch that in the Finals? He had a less efficient 55/8/4 against the Suns. Both are pretty insane. He also never had anything like Lebron's 2011 Finals.

[52-80 19070]

Would Jordan really have beaten the Rockets in both gap years though?  You gotta give him 1...but cant assume both.

In 92-93 season Hakeem was beating him head to head. 

Those bulls took WCF over knicks and championship over the suns. 

93-94 rockets took down the suns and knicks (compositionally the same team as before).  

Those 2 years of Olajuwon was also his peak, at 29 years old (a few weeks off from MJ, btw).  

I dont think it was a given that Jordan wouldve won 8 straight.  And Having a 6-2 on his resume wouldve taken the shine off the seemingly flawless finals record

[ChiTownDoc 21095]

1 hour ago, 52-80 said:

Would Jordan really have beaten the Rockets in both gap years though?  You gotta give him 1...but cant assume both.

In 92-93 season Hakeem was beating him head to head. 

Those bulls took WCF over knicks and championship over the suns. 

93-94 rockets took down the suns and knicks (compositionally the same team as before).  

Those 2 years of Olajuwon was also his peak, at 29 years old (a few weeks off from MJ, btw).  

I dont think it was a given that Jordan wouldve won 8 straight.  And Having a 6-2 on his resume wouldve taken the shine off the seemingly flawless finals record

While you can’t give him the wins those years you also can’t give him the losses. 

 

What made him GOAT was his pathological drive to win.  That’s why most teams can’t 3pete.  It takes an absurd will to not get complacent.  

And Mole I don’t mean peak by stats, I mean all the repeats while making the shot etc.  He felt unbeatable in a way I haven’t seen with LBJ.  

[ChickenSandwich 9798]

Seen both careers in full. It’s MJ and that’s not an insult to a Bron. A huge part of Brons game is his carnival like size/athletiscim. Jordan is to Bron as Hakeem is to Shaq. The freaks may end up with the numbers but the formers were more talented/better players. 

[ChiTownDoc 21095]

2 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Seen both careers in full. It’s MJ and that’s not an insult to a Bron. A huge part of Brons game is his carnival like size/athletiscim. Jordan is to Bron as Hakeem is to Shaq. The freaks may end up with the numbers but the formers were more talented/better players. 

Yep.  Size/strength.   

[Brothahorn 10085]

There are far too many instances of the 2011 finals where Lebeon not only doesn't score but he didnt impact playoff games at all.  In the 2011 finals he scored something ridiculous like 11 total 4th qtr points in the six 4th qtrs combined.  He had a similar wtf performance in the last game of the 2010 eastern conference finals as well.  Admittedly he seems to have gotten over this failing of late,  but this isn't a shallow criticism under the guise of diminishing Lebron. One could argue that his highs actually surpass Jordan with the way he stuffs nearly every category of the game,  but  there's no doubt that Lebron has several examples where you're left wondering what's wrong with him.  

And that's why I say you have to look at his whole body of work. There have been playoff games, where he didn't show up or shut it down(quit) when he got discouraged. How can you claim to be the greatest at anything when you will quit on the game/your team?

And mark my words, it will definitely happen again. Maybe in the current finals.

And while the final run is impressive, he still has a losing record. That matters, too.

And name all the formidable teams from the East that LeBron has faced in his finals run. Boston's Big 3 and who else? Indy?(lmao).

[Catdaddyhorn 3444]

12 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

And that's why I say you have to look at his whole body of work. There have been playoff games, where he didn't show up or shut it down(quit) when he got discouraged. How can you claim to be the greatest at anything when you will quit on the game/your team?

And mark my words, it will definitely happen again. Maybe in the current finals.

And while the final run is impressive, he still has a losing record. That matters, too.

And name all the formidable teams from the East that LeBron has faced in his finals run. Boston's Big 3 and who else? Indy?(lmao).

Given the video currently going around showing the end of regulation in game 1, some would argue he essentially quit there before OT. I think he scored maybe 1 basket in all of OT. Now I dont begrudge him a completely human reaction to an indefensible blunder by a teammate,  but as a person who watched Jordan I'm not sure Jordan would allow himself that human reaction when the game was still in doubt.  

Edited June 5, 2018 by Catdaddyhorn

[d2o 1602]

1 hour ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Seen both careers in full. It’s MJ and that’s not an insult to a Bron. A huge part of Brons game is his carnival like size/athletiscim. Jordan is to Bron as Hakeem is to Shaq. The freaks may end up with the numbers but the formers were more talented/better players. 

If you are gonna say this then you have to recognize the MJ was a 2000s athlete in the 80s.   He as VASTLY athletically superior to everyone he played against particularly earlier in his career.   Or you have to recognize that Bron has a HUGE amount of skill.   I mean his greatest skill (passing/hoops IQ) is not based on athleticism.

[52-80 19070]

MJ's game is just prettier though, aesthetically. 

[immortal13 4059]

8 hours ago, d2o said:

There will be some that never will admit that LBJ is better.    Many more that won't switch until after LBJ retires.   I do think that if he retires as the all time leading scorer while also being the only player to have 10k rebs and 10k asts he will be the GOAT for me regardless of if he wins another title.

Are you trying to base the GOAT time based on scoring total? Lmao you realize Jordan played 4 years of college ball, right? 

 

My bad, I forgot I was talking to a total fucking moron

[Hate 20103]

Jordan also retired "early".  There is no doubt he could have played at an AS level had he returned after the 98 championship, and there is no way the Bulls wouldn't have been one of the favorites.  You can blame that on Jerry Reinsdorf and Jerry Krause. 

[immortal13 4059]

8 hours ago, Thatguy said:

  

 

    You have to take in account how the game was played back in the 80's and 90's. That era was a no zone, one-on-one era. This era, with all it's zones, is the era of outside shooters. So early in Lebron's career he struggled with his jumper, and teams would just wall him off from the rim and go under any picks. Early 30's Lebron has developed a jumpshot, as most vets do, and you cannot leave him open anymore.

Wall him off the rim? Lulz. 

Jordan played in the era of when defender were allowed to hand check the ball handler. So your argument makes no sense. Jordan would have gone absolutley nuts scoring-wise in today's game.

[immortal13 4059]

2 minutes ago, Hate said:

Jordan also retired "early".  There is no doubt he could have played at an AS level had he returned after the 98 championship, and there is no way the Bulls wouldn't have been one of the favorites.  You can blame that on Jerry Reinsdorf and Jerry Krause. 

Right, if you added 6 years of his average to MJ's scoring total, it would never be touched. 

[Thatguy 8492]

8 hours ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

There are far too many instances of the 2011 finals where Lebeon not only doesn't score but he didnt impact playoff games at all.  In the 2011 finals he scored something ridiculous like 11 total 4th qtr points in the six 4th qtrs combined.  He had a similar wtf performance in the last game of the 2010 eastern conference finals as well.  Admittedly he seems to have gotten over this failing of late,  but this isn't a shallow criticism under the guise of diminishing Lebron. One could argue that his highs actually surpass Jordan with the way he stuffs nearly every category of the game,  but  there's no doubt that Lebron has several examples where you're left wondering what's wrong with him.  

   This is where I disagree. Jordan had his WTF games too. A few examples. Jordan's game 3 vs the 87 Celts he played exactly like James Harden going 9 for 30. Everyone remembers the 63 game in 86 but forgot about the 18 or 19 game right after that. 10-29 Harden game vs the Pistons. When they had the Pistons on the ropes 2-1 in 89 with the chance to go up 3-1 Jordan came out and had a 5-15 stinker. Game 5 they were tied 2-2 with a chance to get control of the series Jordan went a mysterious 4-8 from the field. That series spawned a book.

    It's funny how we block out any subpar games Jordan ever had, while simultaneously punishing James for it. All the early exits in the playoff. The James Harden "gunner" moments where he shot his team out of games. The fact that they did lose to Shaq and Penny. All erased out of the history books. To be honest, all of those years Jordan was pretty lost until Jackson came along. However, we will never give Jackson any credit for that at all.

[Thatguy 8492]

30 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

Are you trying to base the GOAT time based on scoring total? Lmao you realize Jordan played 4 years of college ball, right? 

 

My bad, I forgot I was talking to a total fucking moron

Jordan did not play 4 years of college ball.

[immortal13 4059]

2 hours ago, ChiTownDoc said:

While you can’t give him the wins those years you also can’t give him the losses. 

 

What made him GOAT was his pathological drive to win.  That’s why most teams can’t 3pete.  It takes an absurd will to not get complacent.  

And Mole I don’t mean peak by stats, I mean all the repeats while making the shot etc.  He felt unbeatable in a way I haven’t seen with LBJ.  

Exactly. He never quit like LJ has done a few times

[RollLeft 5039]

Jordan is the/a 10 time scoring leader  AND a 9 time NBA All-Defensive Team AND Defensive Player of the Year in 87.  So put aside the fact that Lebron has yet to match Jordans number of rings (or how, threepeating twice) Lebron has yet to reach the level of game individually Jordan did.  BOTH sides of MJ's game reached the pinnacle.  Until that happens, imo, there really isn't a debate Jordan is the GOAT.  Also isn't this Lebron's 15th NBA Season?  Jordan did all his work all in 15.    

[immortal13 4059]

2 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

Jordan did not play 4 years of college ball.

My bad he played 3, including a National Championship.

 

Advantage: Jordan

[Dutchrudder 11104]

6 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

LeBron is the best player ever, but MJ is still the greatest of all time. Bron still has time to catch him though.

I like this distinction. I think "best player" has more to do with utility to a team to win games, whereas "greatness" has more to do with overall legacy, career accolades and aesthetics. Nobody is touching MJ in any of those 3 categories.

The only real knock on MJ is that he "retired" early for shady reasons. Had he actually won one or both of those 94-96 seasons or even 99, it would be no question at all.  But he didn't, he went and played fucking baseball of all things, and retired early again in 99. Kind of hard to overlook all that, when he could have had a chance at a 4 or 9-peat. 

[immortal13 4059]

1 hour ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

Given the video currently going around showing the end of regulation in game 1, some would argue he essentially quit there before OT. I think he scored maybe 1 basket in all of OT. Now I dont begrudge him a completely human reaction to an indefensible blunder by a teammate,  but as a person who watched Jordan I'm not sure Jordan would allow himself that human reaction when the game was still in doubt.  

/thread

That moment stood out to me as well. It was obvious he was defeated before the OT ever started. Lebron was consumed with blaming everyone else (though I agree Lue's head was up his ass), instead on focusing on the task at hand. Jordan would NEVER have done that. He would've simply done whatever he needed to do for his team to win. 

[Thatguy 8492]

27 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

Wall him off the rim? Lulz. 

Jordan played in the era of when defender were allowed to hand check the ball handler. So your argument makes no sense. Jordan would have gone absolutley nuts scoring-wise in today's game.

   I can tell you never played basketball.

 

Lesson 1 -In the 80's and 90's there were two rules that helped make guys like Jordan and Barkley's careers. The first was illegal defense. In that era you had to be within 5 feet of the man you were guarding. That mean that when Jackson would throw it in to Jordan in that 15 foot postup in their triangle offense, all they had to do was take all the other offensive players to the weak side out by the 3 point line and all the defenders had to come with them. It didn't matter if you were Wennington and couldn't shoot. Your man just couldn't hang out around the rim waiting for Jordan to make a move. You had to either be on your man or come the full distance to double. Any hesitation in the middle would draw an illegal defense call. Now you can stand wherever you want, as long as it's not in the paint for longer than 3 seconds. So the Tristan Thompson's of the world have nowhere to hide like they did in that era. That is why there is so much 3 point shooting in this era. Because it's harder to get to the rim with the allowance of zone defenses.

  Lesson 2- There was no 5 second rule when posting guys up. You could post a guy up, clear out the side, and then spend the entire shot clock backing him close to the basket. Mark Jackson and Barkley extended their careers quite a few years by doing this. That rule went out the door as well. Now any extended time backing a guy down and you get the call.

  People always bring up hand checking, as if it was some other worldly defense. As if 6'8 250lb LBJ would struggle with a hand check.

[Thatguy 8492]

6 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

/thread

That moment stood out to me as well. It was obvious he was defeated before the OT ever started. Lebron was consumed with blaming everyone else (though I agree Lue's head was up his ass), instead on focusing on the task at hand. Jordan would NEVER have done that. He would've simply done whatever he needed to do for his team to win. 

   It's like you never saw Jordan play, only heard about Jordan's heroics second hand or saw highlights. The 63 game vs the Celts. Jordan didn't take a shot in the last OT until 1:37 left and only only scored 4 in the period, but Lebron is the only one that did that right?

[TommyGufano 6021]

20 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

/thread

That moment stood out to me as well. It was obvious he was defeated before the OT ever started. Lebron was consumed with blaming everyone else (though I agree Lue's head was up his ass), instead on focusing on the task at hand. Jordan would NEVER have done that. He would've simply done whatever he needed to do for his team to win. 

 

 

I'd love a breakdown of MJ's winning body language in last minute and a description of how he simply does what Bulls needed for the W

[ChiTownDoc 21095]

28 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

  People always bring up hand checking, as if it was some other worldly defense. As if 6'8 250lb LBJ would struggle with a hand check.

That’s not where hand checking really comes into play.  Bigs with slower releases have become good outside shooters.  That was much harder getting checked out on the perimeter.  Bron would have had a harder time developing his outside shot in that era.  And he’s a locomotive but they would have hammered his ass inside with what would be flagrant fouls today.  

Anthony Mason and Oak didnt give a fuck.

Edited June 5, 2018 by ChiTownDoc

[d2o 1602]

21 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

Are you trying to base the GOAT time based on scoring total? Lmao you realize Jordan played 4 years of college ball, right? 

 

My bad, I forgot I was talking to a total fucking moron

Its against my better judgement that I do this but its pretty fucking amazing for you call me a moron while showing a complete lack of reading comprehension.   That's rich.

 

To your stupid ass point.  Where did I say GOAT was based solely on scoring total?  I said that fact along with others along with his other stats, accolades and accomplishments.

More importantly the CURRENT SCORING LEADER WENT TO COLLEGE FOR 4 YEARS!!!!   What the fuck does MJ going to college for 4 yrs have to do with LBJ getting to the #1 spot?

STFU when grown folks are talking.   You clearly lack the ability to have a rational conversation concern this topic which is why you are on ignore.    Now back to it.

[immortal13 4059]

1 minute ago, d2o said:

Its against my better judgement that I do this but its pretty fucking amazing for you call me a moron while showing a complete lack of reading comprehension.   That's rich.

 

To your stupid ass point.  Where did I say GOAT was based solely on scoring total?  I said that fact along with others along with his other stats, accolades and accomplishments.

More importantly the CURRENT SCORING LEADER WENT TO COLLEGE FOR 4 YEARS!!!!   What the fuck does MJ going to college for 4 yrs have to do with LBJ getting to the #1 spot?

STFU when grown folks are talking.   You clearly lack the ability to have a rational conversation concern this topic which is why you are on ignore.    Now back to it.

You made that the main point of your post, dumbass. 

[d2o 1602]

1 minute ago, ChiTownDoc said:

That’s not where hand checking really comes into play.  Bigs with slower releases have become good outside shooters.  That was much harder getting checked out in the perimeter.  Bron would have had a harder time developing his outside shot in that era.  And he’s a locomotive but they would have hammered his ass inside with what would be flagrant fouls today.  

Anthony Mason and Oak didnt give a fuck.

You do realize LBJ is the same size as both Oak and Mase?    They wouldn't just be wailing on LBJ without taking some punishment of their own and after a while they would think twice about hitting him.  

[immortal13 4059]

31 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

   I can tell you never played basketball.

 

Lesson 1 -In the 80's and 90's there were two rules that helped make guys like Jordan and Barkley's careers. The first was illegal defense. In that era you had to be within 5 feet of the man you were guarding. That mean that when Jackson would throw it in to Jordan in that 15 foot postup in their triangle offense, all they had to do was take all the other offensive players to the weak side out by the 3 point line and all the defenders had to come with them. It didn't matter if you were Wennington and couldn't shoot. Your man just couldn't hang out around the rim waiting for Jordan to make a move. You had to either be on your man or come the full distance to double. Any hesitation in the middle would draw an illegal defense call. Now you can stand wherever you want, as long as it's not in the paint for longer than 3 seconds. So the Tristan Thompson's of the world have nowhere to hide like they did in that era. That is why there is so much 3 point shooting in this era. Because it's harder to get to the rim with the allowance of zone defenses.

  Lesson 2- There was no 5 second rule when posting guys up. You could post a guy up, clear out the side, and then spend the entire shot clock backing him close to the basket. Mark Jackson and Barkley extended their careers quite a few years by doing this. That rule went out the door as well. Now any extended time backing a guy down and you get the call.

  People always bring up hand checking, as if it was some other worldly defense. As if 6'8 250lb LBJ would struggle with a hand check.

Did you just use Mark Jackson to make your point? Lmao

[d2o 1602]

2 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

You made that the main point of your post, dumbass. 

Clearly the software you use to read posts to you isn't well.   Its obvious you cannot read.

[immortal13 4059]

 

1 minute ago, d2o said:

Clearly the software you use to read posts to you isn't well.   Its obvious you cannot read.

I thought I was on your ignore list? Lol

Edited June 5, 2018 by immortal13
Living in D2Os head

[ChiTownDoc 21095]

4 minutes ago, d2o said:

You do realize LBJ is the same size as both Oak and Mase?    They wouldn't just be wailing on LBJ without taking some punishment of their own and after a while they would think twice about hitting him.  

Oh I’m sure LBJ is even bigger but when you’re in the air with the ball somebody without much size can completely wipe you out.  

[d2o 1602]

2 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

 

I thought I was on your ignore list? Lol

Translation:   Please stop making points for which I have no rational response.

[d2o 1602]

Just now, ChiTownDoc said:

Oh I’m sure LBJ is even bigger but when you’re in the air with the ball somebody without much size can completely wipe you out.  

Yeah, you guys talk about how he delivers punishment now to defenders you don't think he could do more if he wanted/need to?     Especially if he knew guys were trying to hurt him?

[immortal13 4059]

22 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

   It's like you never saw Jordan play, only heard about Jordan's heroics second hand or saw highlights. The 63 game vs the Celts. Jordan didn't take a shot in the last OT until 1:37 left and only only scored 4 in the period, but Lebron is the only one that did that right?

A personal attack on my age....lol. Is that all you got P?  I'm old enough to know what I'm talking about, so you can stop worrying about that. Not only am ai old enough, I've seen him play live. 

I'm just having a blast seeing all the Lebron dick suckers like you all in a rage because Lebrons is about to fail again. It's hilarious

[immortal13 4059]

4 minutes ago, d2o said:

Yeah, you guys talk about how he delivers punishment now to defenders you don't think he could do more if he wanted/need to?     Especially if he knew guys were trying to hurt him?

He pushes off almost every time he drives to the rim