The NBA's GOAT -- MJ? Lebron? The Field?

[JimTom 119]

Jordan is GOAT.  No doubt.

#1 - he doesn't lose in the finals.

#2 - he makes everyone around him better.

#3 - he doesn't wear a purse

Edited June 5, 2018 by JimTom

[immortal13 4,059]

Jordan had style and grace that Lebron could never touch. He changed the game. Lebron just bulldozes his way to the rim, pushing off or running through defenders. Compared to Jordan, Lebron's game is ugly. 

I will give Lebron credit for becoming a deadly outside shooter in his later years, better than Jordan. But for some reason he sucks at the free throw stripe

[Catdaddyhorn 3,444]

1 hour ago, Thatguy said:

   This is where I disagree. Jordan had his WTF games too. A few examples. Jordan's game 3 vs the 87 Celts he played exactly like James Harden going 9 for 30. Everyone remembers the 63 game in 86 but forgot about the 18 or 19 game right after that. 10-29 Harden game vs the Pistons. When they had the Pistons on the ropes 2-1 in 89 with the chance to go up 3-1 Jordan came out and had a 5-15 stinker. Game 5 they were tied 2-2 with a chance to get control of the series Jordan went a mysterious 4-8 from the field. That series spawned a book.

    It's funny how we block out any subpar games Jordan ever had, while simultaneously punishing James for it. All the early exits in the playoff. The James Harden "gunner" moments where he shot his team out of games. The fact that they did lose to Shaq and Penny. All erased out of the history books. To be honest, all of those years Jordan was pretty lost until Jackson came along. However, we will never give Jackson any credit for that at all.

You might want to scroll up to the post where I mentioned the number of subpar playoff games for both Jordan & Lebron. 

To once again sum up the totals

Lebron: # of playoff gms with 15 or fewer points = 12

Jordan: # of playoff gms with 15 or fewer points = 1

Lebron: # of playoff gms with 20 or fewer points = 31

Jordan: # of playoff gms with 20 or fewer points = 8

[Catdaddyhorn 3,444]

1 hour ago, d2o said:

You do realize LBJ is the same size as both Oak and Mase?    They wouldn't just be wailing on LBJ without taking some punishment of their own and after a while they would think twice about hitting him.  

LBJ wouldn't be near as big as he is if he was born 20 years earlier and I imagine Oak and Mase would've been different players if they were born 20 years later.  I really don't understand the purpose of making discussion points like the one above.  None of us know what these players would've done in different eras and the idea that Lebron becomes the player he his without some evolution of the game taking place (something Jordan clearly contributed to)  is ridiculous. They all step on the ladders the players before them built to become the players they are.  Greatness is determined by how you fair against your contemporaries,  not by what you "would've" done if you were somehow magically transported to a different era.

[Robin Masters 122]

A few points. People love to compare Jordan with an absolute trash lineup in his first year or two of playoffs, going against the fucking 1980s' Boston Celtics, and Detroit Bad Boys, both multiple championship winning legendary teams, to Lebron shitting the bed in a finals well into his career. WTF.

Jordan retired the 2nd time with 6 championships a year from now in Lebron age. He was still high flying, levitating, spinning, gravity defying. Maybe he lost a smidge but it didn't show. Who else has done that? Vince Carter was washed up long ago athletically. Kobe maybe, but he was never as skilled with his athleticism. You just don't see guys with Jordans explosive athleticism sustain it for as long. Now when he came back the last time with the Wizards it was gone and he was down to just above average NBA player. I also don't think people realize how hard it is to retire, go off and play another sport, and then come ALL THE WAY back to the top of the game. Not just pretty, good, not one of the best, but undeniably the best player.

That stat about #1 draft picks played with, wtf.

How about all time NBA top 50 teammates? Jordan had Pippen every year. Lebron had Dwayne Wade. Maybe Kyrie gets there but not yet.

How about all time top 50s you played against in the finals.

Jordan played finals against Magic, Worthy(some dropping him from newer top 50 list), Barkley, Drexler, Stockton, Malone, and Payton. 

Lebron played finals against, Dirk, Curry, Durant, Duncan. (Probably can add Westbrook and Harden to top 50, Westbrook especially)

Lebron has got screwed on several MVP votes. It's sorta his fault, not because he makes it look easy, but because like this year, Cleveland looked like dog shit most of the year. That's on him, but he also has to save something to get through the playoffs, so he can't go out and do 40/10/7 all season, lead Cleveland to a #1 seed and have anything left.

Like someone else said, Jordans game was aesthetically better. When a 6'6" guard blows past another guard, gets inside and either just dunks right over a 7 footer, or flies, hangs, hangs, hangs, everyone else drops, hangs, and gets the shot off, it's beautiful. Or when a 6'6" guy gets a big on him in a switch and he backs them down then hits the smooth turn around over them, it is beautiful.

When a 6'8" guy throws a smaller player out of the way with a forearm that would be a foul call against most of the league,, then goes in and runs over a guy slightly bigger than him, it's not as pretty even if both get you two points. I do give Lebron credit, he is so tough to stop once he gets going on a drive, and he has developed some crazy angles he can hit shots from near the rim. I really thought in the 2016 finals he looked done. He had lost a step, his jumper sucked so people could play off him. And he turned it around that series. And since then has looked better than ever.

Finally Lebron often doesn't carry himself like a champion. Yes you can find footage of Bird, Magic, Jordan protesting a call, but you don't see them walking all over refusing to give up the ball, looking like they are about to cry, running at the refs, hands out, are you crazy, etc. every friggen play, and jawing with the refs the whole game. Partly that's on the refs. If you had tried that shit in the 80s and 90s you would have been teed up and you would learn to STFU and show respect. Still, Bird Magic Jordan carried themselves like champions. They just got madder and madder, and fuck you I'm going to beat your team, your crowd, the refs, and whatever else you got. Lebron has been around forever, and he still acts fucking shocked that Curry is gonna get a call at home. He has a lot of Draymonds bitchassedness about him, just with a helluva lot more skill and history to back it up.

 

[texaslong 678]

1 hour ago, immortal13 said:

He pushes off almost every time he drives to the rim

Yup. When the strongest guy on the court is also allowed to push and throw people off its almost not fair. He’s kinda gotten into that drop your head and bulldoze your way to the basket type game.  I will say his shot has improved and over the last couple of years, and he’s starting to develope a killer mentality that Jordan had most of his career. 

[Rockethorn1978 6,061]

For me it's always been the way MJ took his level to another stratosphere in the Finals. He averaged 41ppg, 8.3rpg, 6.5astts in the 1993 Finals and his only finals under 30ppg was in 1995/96. Other than that he was routinely in the 30's with 35ppg against the Blazers. Where as LBJ has had like two finals over 30, One Finals with the Heat he averaged 17ppg and on here he some act like he is dragging wheelchair bball players around. 

MJ is supposedly to have better "teams" yet always was dropping high averages when it mattered most in the Finals. LBJ hasn't always done that.

[Patrick Bateman 3,903]

This should add fuel to the fire.....

Does Lebron Make His Teammates Better?

Quote

There actually are several members of the current Cavaliers roster who have been better than they were in previous stops. Jose Calderon and Jeff Green have performed well on minimum-salary contracts this season, Larry Nance Jr. played at the highest level of his career after coming over from the L.A. Lakers, both Smith and Kyle Korver improved after midseason trades, and Tristan Thompson developed into a key player after James signed in Cleveland.

Despite those examples, on average these new James teammates -- weighted by minutes played -- have performed 6.3 percent worse than forecast.... 

If we look at the new James teammates who have beaten expectations in Cleveland, it's almost exclusively players with low usage rates. Just one of the nine to match or beat their projections (Smith) was forecast for above-average usage, and their average projected usage rate was 15.8 percent.

Have fun....

[ChiTownDoc 21,098]

2 hours ago, d2o said:

Yeah, you guys talk about how he delivers punishment now to defenders you don't think he could do more if he wanted/need to?     Especially if he knew guys were trying to hurt him?

I’m sure he would hurt the enforcers.  And the enforcers would hurt him.  That’s a net loss for LBJ and his team.  You can’t just wreck people today like you could then.  The Jordan rules.  Read.  

 

Edited June 5, 2018 by ChiTownDoc

[ChiTownDoc 21,098]

I keep laughing at the line ‘after a while they’d think twice before hitting him.’   Bro, Mase didn’t think.  Ever.  You remember Mase right?  Lol

[Bill Brasky 1,439]

Bill Russell 

[Catdaddyhorn 3,444]

1 hour ago, Rockethorn1978 said:

For me it's always been the way MJ took his level to another stratosphere in the Finals. He averaged 41ppg, 8.3rpg, 6.5astts in the 1993 Finals and his only finals under 30ppg was in 1995/96. Other than that he was routinely in the 30's with 35ppg against the Blazers. Where as LBJ has had like two finals over 30, One Finals with the Heat he averaged 17ppg and on here he some act like he is dragging wheelchair bball players around. 

MJ is supposedly to have better "teams" yet always was dropping high averages when it mattered most in the Finals. LBJ hasn't always done that.

Jordan supposedly had better teams yet no teammate on those teams other than Pippen averaged more than 8ppg during those Finals/playoffs.

[Mole 4,320]

7 hours ago, 52-80 said:

Would Jordan really have beaten the Rockets in both gap years though?  You gotta give him 1...but cant assume both.

In 92-93 season Hakeem was beating him head to head. 

Those bulls took WCF over knicks and championship over the suns. 

93-94 rockets took down the suns and knicks (compositionally the same team as before).  

Those 2 years of Olajuwon was also his peak, at 29 years old (a few weeks off from MJ, btw).  

I dont think it was a given that Jordan wouldve won 8 straight.  And Having a 6-2 on his resume wouldve taken the shine off the seemingly flawless finals record

I wouldn't give him either year, but the gap years add to the popular mythology of him. Somehow we write off his return year as not even happening. I'd say 6-2 on his resume would be better than 6-0 though. This also assumes that he even makes the Finals those two years, which I think is unlikely considering he played and didn't make it the second year. I think part of the retirement was fatigue of the three-peat. Honestly, had he stayed, I don't know if the second three-peat even would have happened.

We're underestimating how much it takes to have such sustained success. Other than 50s/60s Celtics, no one has done it. Jordan took a year and a half off. That makes Lebron's current Finals run all the more impressive to me.

While we should hold Lebron's 2011 Finals against him, keep in mind that Jordan was losing to the Pistons at the same age. We tend to forget that Jordan couldn't win the big one at one point.

[Reynolds Woodcock 4,658]

It's not as fun, but I am of the view that it is impossible to do GOAT rankings across eras in sports given the changes in training, rules, styles of play, etc. I think the better approach is to have a Mt. Rushmore of sorts that includes the GOAT of each era. So the arguments really become Russell/Wilt, Kareem, Magic/Bird, MJ, Shaq/Kobe/Duncan , LeBron. Sure, if prime Bill Russell was dropped into this NBA finals he might not even be a top 5 player, but that isn't a fair or worthwhile comparison. But Russell was as great if not greater than MJ in comparison to his peers and LeBron in comparison to his peers. 

 

[Patrick Bateman 3,903]

37 minutes ago, Mole said:

I wouldn't give him either year, but the gap years add to the popular mythology of him. Somehow we write off his return year as not even happening. I'd say 6-2 on his resume would be better than 6-0 though. This also assumes that he even makes the Finals those two years, which I think is unlikely considering he played and didn't make it the second year. I think part of the retirement was fatigue of the three-peat. Honestly, had he stayed, I don't know if the second three-peat even would have happened.

We're underestimating how much it takes to have such sustained success. Other than 50s/60s Celtics, no one has done it. Jordan took a year and a half off. That makes Lebron's current Finals run all the more impressive to me.

While we should hold Lebron's 2011 Finals against him, keep in mind that Jordan was losing to the Pistons at the same age. We tend to forget that Jordan couldn't win the big one at one point.

Interestingly enough, if Jordan never comes back for those 17 games (it wasn't half a season) and watch Shaq destroy the Bulls weak front court, the 2nd threepeat may have never happened.  Folks forget but the Bulls lost Horace Grant in FA to the Magic before the season.  John Paxson, Stacy King, Cartwright, etc all gone.  Players got old quickly back then.  94-95 was a huge transition year for the Bulls and frankly, they sort of sucked until Michael came back and gave them hope.  They were a middling 34-31 team who probably was looking at a 6 or 7 seed and first round exit playing Kukoc at the 4.  After stumbling out of the gate with his comeback and going 1-2 in the first 3 games, the Bulls went 12-2 down the stretch to get the 5th seed.  Interestingly enough, they may have been better suited as the 6 seed.  They would have been in the Knicks/Pacers bracket and those teams were pretty old and near the end. 

Regardless, after watching Shaq and Grant lay waste to their front court, the Bulls with Jordan's encouragement (or so the story goes) got bigger and nastier..... hence, the come back with bench Bad Boys Edwards, Salley, and of course..... The Worm.  Transitioned Kukoc back to super sub and challenged Longely to get tougher.  Now, those two old Bad Boys didn't do much on the court, but they added toughness and set a tone..... as the story goes.  The destroyed the Magic in the rematch, but let's not forget that Horace Grant was hurt with an elbow injury.  A huge blow to the Magic..... Injuries and avoidance of them are usually a factor in any championship team.  Ho Grant wasn't what he once was but he killed them the year before with his 18 footers.  Don't think it would have mattered, that was the 72 win team, but still interesting to note.

[Mole 4,320]

So player Jordan was a better GM than Lebron?

[immortal13 4,059]

Jordan would have never lost to the Dallas Mavericks in 2011

[Thatguy 8,492]

5 hours ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

You might want to scroll up to the post where I mentioned the number of subpar playoff games for both Jordan & Lebron. 

To once again sum up the totals

Lebron: # of playoff gms with 15 or fewer points = 12

Jordan: # of playoff gms with 15 or fewer points = 1

Lebron: # of playoff gms with 20 or fewer points = 31

Jordan: # of playoff gms with 20 or fewer points = 8

Brother, you are only posting low scoring games. You can hurt your team just as bad by shooting them out of games ala Westbrook or Harden. We acknowledge that with them, but not Jordan. 

[Thatguy 8,492]

6 hours ago, immortal13 said:

Did you just use Mark Jackson to make your point? Lmao

Mark Jackson was one of the best postup guards in the game, so yes I did use that. But you would know that if you watched. 

[Thatguy 8,492]

6 hours ago, ChiTownDoc said:

That’s not where hand checking really comes into play.  Bigs with slower releases have become good outside shooters.  That was much harder getting checked out on the perimeter.  Bron would have had a harder time developing his outside shot in that era.  And he’s a locomotive but they would have hammered his ass inside with what would be flagrant fouls today.  

Anthony Mason and Oak didnt give a fuck.

 With all due respect Doc while there was a lot of tomfoolery in that era I go back and rewatch games all the time and I don't see it being as physical as we remember it being on a play to play basis. 

[ChiTownDoc 21,098]

2 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

 With all due respect Doc while there was a lot of tomfoolery in that era I go back and rewatch games all the time and I don't see it being as physical as we remember it being on a play to play basis. 

Play to play I agree.  But there were very hard fouls which didn’t get fined or techs etc. Bron would be great in any era. I’m saying he’s number 2 for now and whoever brought up the distinction between best player vs GOAT...I follow that line of thinking. Bron is amazing.  Don’t get me wrong on that. 

[immortal13 4,059]

Michael Jordan never had to proclaim that he was the greatest player in the world. It was just a known fact.

 

[Catdaddyhorn 3,444]

For what it's worth, I enjoy Lebron's style of over Jordan's. Of course I was a Magic guy during the early part of the Jordan era so my natural inclination is to prefer those sorts of players over the Jordan/Kobe/Domonique nothing but buckets style of domination. Too bad Lebron wants to be the GM and the coach too. He'd do well in a Philadelphia, Golden St, or even mid 00s Phoenix Suns style of play. And I'm pretty certain David Blatt would've eventually worked towards that style of play if he were given the authority to do what he wanted. I would've liked to see Lebron play for a coach he respected to see what sorts of heights he would've reached. His current mode of having to be the conductor of every aspect of any org he joins is stifling his greatness. 

Edited June 6, 2018 by Catdaddyhorn

[immortal13 4,059]

 

[Mole 4,320]

4 hours ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

Too bad Lebron wants to be the GM and the coach too.

 

This is a valid point and a point against Lebron. Jordan didn't win until Phil. 

[BoomMF 1,398]

Phil didn't win until Jordan. Fify

 

Jordan took some pretty starkly talented teams to the finals and won. Convinced the world that BJ Armstrong was a legit spot holder. Had a guy on his team named Bill Wennington that looked like a guy named Bill Wennington. What did Pippen average, like 17 points a game? Is that markedly better than Love's 15?

 

Yet even those Bulls, filled with way too many Bills to be considered dangerous, were feared like no other in their time.

 

 

[Thatguy 8,492]

7 hours ago, BoomMF said:

Phil didn't win until Jordan. Fify

 

Jordan took some pretty starkly talented teams to the finals and won. Convinced the world that BJ Armstrong was a legit spot holder. Had a guy on his team named Bill Wennington that looked like a guy named Bill Wennington. What did Pippen average, like 17 points a game? Is that markedly better than Love's 15?

 

Yet even those Bulls, filled with way too many Bills to be considered dangerous, were feared like no other in their time.

 

 

Were they playing 4 All Stars? No. They were playing teams with a bunch of Wennington's but THEIR two All Stars weren't as good as Scotty, Jordan, and Grant. Also, your point about Phil might be true if Phil didn't win right away in Chicago and then turn around and do the same damn thing in LA.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Thatguy

[PittsburghTiger 6,137]

22 hours ago, Reynolds Woodcock said:

It's not as fun, but I am of the view that it is impossible to do GOAT rankings across eras in sports given the changes in training, rules, styles of play, etc. I think the better approach is to have a Mt. Rushmore of sorts that includes the GOAT of each era. So the arguments really become Russell/Wilt, Kareem, Magic/Bird, MJ, Shaq/Kobe/Duncan , LeBron. Sure, if prime Bill Russell was dropped into this NBA finals he might not even be a top 5 player, but that isn't a fair or worthwhile comparison. But Russell was as great if not greater than MJ in comparison to his peers and LeBron in comparison to his peers. 

 

That's pretty much how I look at this as well. Think about Wilt with today's level of training, nutrition, medical care, etc. Didn't Wilt average 30+ ppg and 20+ rpg? That guy was a physical marvel.

How about Kareem with better medical care for his migraine headaches? Bill Russell was an amazing athlete, 22 rpg. Just imagine his frame with LeBron's training and nutrition. That's not saying LeBron is not great. But things have progressed so much in 50 years that it really is impossible to just compare players from different generations.  

I reckon the best way is to look at championships and how they led their teams. Russell won nine titles in a row, right? It's still fun to debate.

But it's also silly.

Edited June 6, 2018 by PittsburghTiger

[Underdog 28,443]

8 hours ago, BoomMF said:

Phil didn't win until Jordan. Fify

No.  He was correct.  Same with Shaq and Kobe, they didn't win until Phil. 

[immortal13 4,059]

 

Edited June 6, 2018 by immortal13

[Mole 4,320]

8 hours ago, BoomMF said:

What did Pippen average, like 17 points a game? Is that markedly better than Love's 15?

 

I'll go out on a limb and say that Pippen's 17 a game is a bit better than Love's 15. Chuck Daly called Scottie the second best player on the Dream Team.

[PittsburghTiger 6,137]

 

[immortal13 4,059]

More superior!

[52-80 19,077]

It's Bird.  or Eddie Jones.

[Patrick Bateman 3,903]

1 hour ago, PittsburghTiger said:

Didn't Wilt average 30+ pig and 20+ rpg? That guy was a physical marvel.

How about Kareem with better medical care for his migraine headaches? Bill Russell was an amazing athlete, 22 rpg. Just imagine his frame with LeBron's training and nutrition. That's not saying LeBron is not great. But things have progressed so much in 50 years that it really is impossible to just compare players from different generations.  

I reckon the best way is to look at championships and how they led their teams. Russell won nine titles in a row, right? It's still fun to debate.

But it's also silly.

Wilt did average 30 - 22 - 4.4 for his career.  Arguably his best season, he averaged 50 points and 25.7 rebounds on .506 FG%.  They didn't keep track of blocks or steals back then but by most estimates he probably averaged at least 10 blocks a game.  The most amazing thing?  He started all 80 games and averaged.... averaged, 48.5 minutes per game.  He played every minute of almost every game (was tossed in one game) including OT's.  His team lost in 7 to the Celtics, who had 6 Hall of Famers on their roster....

 

[GabrielsHorn 2,142]

19 hours ago, immortal13 said:

Jordan would have never lost to the Dallas Mavericks in 2011

To me, that series leaves such a poor mark on Lebron's legacy. It was incredible watching him be so timid. If MJ ever had Barea on him, he would have destroyed him in the post. 

[Vic Mackey 46,930]

[Patrick Bateman 3,903]

3 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

Ha..... engaging MJ's mortal enemy on the subject isn't instructive at all.  Ask Paul Pierce about Lebron's place on the subject.  Those are just dudes with big egos holding grudges.  At least ask IT about how he enjoyed the Dream Team...... oh, wait. 

 

 

[Mitch Cumsteen 18,523]

To me the thing that sets Jordan apart was his pathological need to win. It was borderline unhealthy. Lebron is just as good of a player, he checks every possible box you could want, but I honestly believe that MJ was deranged. Kobe tried to emulate that (and pretty much everything else that MJ did), but he never really got there. MJ was really fucked up. I mean, go look at his HoF speech. It's the most petty thing you could imagine. He was a sick fuck. And he was the greatest basketball player I've ever seen. 

[immortal13 4,059]

1 hour ago, Vic Mackey said:

Lulz.....Isaiah Thomas is a clown

[Vic Mackey 46,930]

3 hours ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Ha..... engaging MJ's mortal enemy on the subject isn't instructive at all.  Ask Paul Pierce about Lebron's place on the subject.  Those are just dudes with big egos holding grudges.  At least ask IT about how he enjoyed the Dream Team...... oh, wait. 

 

 

Oh that's right. When the narrative doesn't fit your stance, then it's some agenda they have. But let's post all the quotes about Jordan being better than Lebron. Because those are all genuine. And those are all correct.

[Patrick Bateman 3,903]

31 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

Oh that's right. When the narrative doesn't fit your stance, then it's some agenda they have. But let's post all the quotes about Jordan being better than Lebron. Because those are all genuine. And those are all correct.

Ah.... so that's your stance?  Fair enough.  Alright, go find all the posts I have in this thread with quotes about Jordan being better than Lebron...... Ready.... Go.

 

And for those keeping score at home, I gave an example of another player in Paul Pierce as someone who's subjectivity in the matter probably can be take with a large grain of salt.... against Lebron.

 

Edited June 6, 2018 by Patrick Bateman

[kingkoopa6 8,312]

let me see how lebron plays baseball and golf and ill decide.

[immortal13 4,059]

1 hour ago, Vic Mackey said:

Oh that's right. When the narrative doesn't fit your stance, then it's some agenda they have. But let's post all the quotes about Jordan being better than Lebron. Because those are all genuine. And those are all correct.

Are you even old enough to remember Jordan when he was playing?

[Goo Punch 4,275]

1 hour ago, Vic Mackey said:

Oh that's right. When the narrative doesn't fit your stance, then it's some agenda they have. But let's post all the quotes about Jordan being better than Lebron. Because those are all genuine. And those are all correct.

Posting Isaiah Thomas’s thoughts on MJ is like posting the most die-hard OU fan’s thoughts on Vince Young- when he says that Jason White was clearly better you should neither be surprised nor should you put any stock into it. Don’t act like Zeke is some normal, unbiased dude in this matter.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Goo Punch

[Deej 76,531]

If Lebron had Jordan's intensity, it wouldn't even be close. Unfortunately, he seems to let things get in his head at times. He should be unstoppable, but he stops himself. He's the most physically gifted and talented player I've ever seen, but Jordan was the greatest. 

Edited June 7, 2018 by Deej

[immortal13 4,059]

This thread needs a poll

[Underdog 28,443]

2 hours ago, kingkoopa6 said:

let me see how lebron plays baseball and golf and ill decide.

Or  HoF speech. 

[PittsburghTiger 6,137]

1 hour ago, immortal13 said:

This thread needs a poll

Or a montage.

[Mole 4,320]

8 hours ago, GabrielsHorn said:

To me, that series leaves such a poor mark on Lebron's legacy. It was incredible watching him be so timid. If MJ ever had Barea on him, he would have destroyed him in the post. 

It's most definitely a mark against Lebron, but in fairness, MJ was losing in the conference finals at the same age.