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The NBA's GOAT -- MJ? Lebron? The Field?

Patrick Bateman

By Patrick Bateman
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GabrielsHorn

GabrielsHorn 2186

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12 hours ago, Mole said:

It's most definitely a mark against Lebron, but in fairness, MJ was losing in the conference finals at the same age.

That was also against an all time team, the defending NBA champions, and MJ averaged 32/7/6. Lebron went 18/7/7 against the Mavs, which while I love that team, were not an all-time great team. 

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ajax

ajax 2622

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Kobe isn't in this conversation and I wasn't a fan while he was playing but the more I learn about him the more I like him.

Imagine Lebron's physique and game paired with Kobe's assassin mentality. That combo would be ubstoppable. 

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Brothahorn

Brothahorn 10087

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"Oh, absolutely. I mean, listen, not only from a brotherhood aspect and what we know about one another, and also from an experience factor," James said Thursday, according to ASAP Sports. "I believe that he would have been very, very good for us in the postseason. He's a guy that's kind of built for the postseason at this point in his career, who lives for the moment.

"So definitely, definitely think about that. It seems so long ago that he was even a part of this ball club, but definitely think about it from time to time."


Now he's missing DWade.

Don't remember the GOAT pining for Horace Grant.
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Orca of Peace

Orca of Peace 109

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13 hours ago, Brothahorn said:

 


Now he's missing DWade.

Don't remember the GOAT pining for Horace Grant.

 

Cavs really should have retained DWade. Was DWade unhappy, did he want to leave? I know Cavs wanted to go with the youth movement, but he has had manyh good games with Miami and had a lot left. 

Could Bron and CP3 end up in Miami? I think the Heat is a top 3 possibility. 

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Patrick Bateman

Patrick Bateman 3933

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1 hour ago, Orca of Peace said:

Cavs really should have retained DWade. Was DWade unhappy, did he want to leave? I know Cavs wanted to go with the youth movement, but he has had manyh good games with Miami and had a lot left. 

Could Bron and CP3 end up in Miami? I think the Heat is a top 3 possibility. 

He wasn't effective with the minutes he was given and was going to lose most of them.  They gave him the option to go or they would work to trade him to Miami.  He chose to go home.

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Orca of Peace

Orca of Peace 109

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2 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

He wasn't effective with the minutes he was given and was going to lose most of them.  They gave him the option to go or they would work to trade him to Miami.  He chose to go home.

doesn't sound like an option to Miami when they would trade him anyway 

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Brothahorn

Brothahorn 10087

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20 points in 3 quarters of work is quitting.....gotcha. You guys expect him to get 50 every time he walks on the court.

Seriously? He won't even shoot anymore. Just standing around. Look at his body language.  

My bad he got a layup. 22 pts. Yeah he really left it all on the court.

 

 

 

 

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Thatguy

Thatguy 8872

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3 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

Seriously? He won't even shoot anymore. Just standing around. Look at his body language.  

My bad he got a layup. 22 pts. Yeah he really left it all on the court.

 

 

 

 

   They were down 22 when he walked back in the game with 9 minutes left from resting since the 3rd qtr. Don't be that dude.

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Brothahorn

Brothahorn 10087

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   They were down 22 when he walked back in the game with 9 minutes left from resting since the 3rd qtr. Don't be that dude.
Take your own advice and recognize the truth. No matter the score, you can't quit. He quit, like I said he would.

You can appreciate his greatness, while acknowledging the shortcomings. Don't have to be a fanboy.
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Thatguy

Thatguy 8872

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3 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

Take your own advice and recognize the truth. No matter the score, you can't quit. He quit, like I said he would.

You can appreciate his greatness, while acknowledging the shortcomings. Don't have to be a fanboy.

   They were down 22. No chance to come back from that in 9 minutes. You want him diving on the floor? Don't be that guy.

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PilotsError

PilotsError 2321

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"Oh, absolutely. I mean, listen, not only from a brotherhood aspect and what we know about one another, and also from an experience factor," James said Thursday, according to ASAP Sports. "I believe that he would have been very, very good for us in the postseason. He's a guy that's kind of built for the postseason at this point in his career, who lives for the moment.

"So definitely, definitely think about that. It seems so long ago that he was even a part of this ball club, but definitely think about it from time to time."


Now he's missing DWade.

Don't remember the GOAT pining for Horace Grant.Another piece of evidence players are shit GMs.
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Goo Punch

Goo Punch 4275

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Posted on May 28 when this board was completely overrun with LEBRON 4 GOAT fever:

I agree that LeBron is the best basketball player in history, but here’s my thing about his newly-found GOAT status- if the Cavs lose the Finals 4-1 to a less-than-100% team from the West, will you still be able to confidently go around calling him the GOAT? For me he’s the best ever right now, but I’m waiting to see how his career plays out before I call him the GOAT. As unlikely as it seems he may have already won his last title, and if that’s the case, then it’s MJ > Bron, Magic, Kareem, Russell etc for GOAT.

 
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Deej

Deej 76930

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The the supposed GOAT goes and does something stupid to cost him and his team. That was a dumber move than JR's play to end regulation. Maybe he should have focused that anger towards kicking ass in overtime?

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freyguy

freyguy 4293

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5 hours ago, Orca of Peace said:

Bron was playing with a broken hand in games 2-4, injured by smashing a blackboard after Game 1 in frustration. That explains all his shots were close and low scoring. They still almost won game 3..hmmm. 

tenor.gif

giphy.gif

FearlessNarrowAmoeba.gif

 

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Patrick Bateman

Patrick Bateman 3933

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5 hours ago, Orca of Peace said:

Bron was playing with a broken hand in games 2-4, injured by smashing a blackboard after Game 1 in frustration. That explains all his shots were close and low scoring. They still almost won game 3..hmmm. 

Wasn't a broken hand.... he described it as like a broken hand but MRI indicated it was simply a badly bruised hand.  Still, it was his shooting hand and certainly affected his jump shot but that's on him.

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Goo Punch

Goo Punch 4275

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He doesn’t have that sociopathic quality that many greats have, that Jordan had, that Kobe had. I don’t know that he’s more concerned with his image than he is with winning, but I’d say that the ratio is less than ideal when talking GOAT. 

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Bozo_Casanova

Bozo_Casanova 26567

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He doesn’t have that sociopathic quality that many greats have, that Jordan had, that Kobe had. I don’t know that he’s more concerned with his image than he is with winning, but I’d say that the ratio is less than ideal when talking GOAT. 

and for that reason I put LeBron in the same category as Kareem and Wilt Chamberlain, which is still pretty great.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Slade

Slade 263

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32 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

He doesn’t have that sociopathic quality that many greats have, that Jordan had, that Kobe had. I don’t know that he’s more concerned with his image than he is with winning, but I’d say that the ratio is less than ideal when talking GOAT. 

Jordan hated losing more than he liked winning. Kobe was also built the same way, an insane level of competitiveness.

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Patrick Bateman

Patrick Bateman 3933

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On 6/5/2018 at 9:48 AM, Thatguy said:

   It's like you never saw Jordan play, only heard about Jordan's heroics second hand or saw highlights. The 63 game vs the Celts. Jordan didn't take a shot in the last OT until 1:37 left and only only scored 4 in the period, but Lebron is the only one that did that right?

Just saw this and it's not really that important but most of this is incorrect and the context is poor.  He actually took the first shot of the 2OT after a Corzine turnover, a 5 foot bunny he misses I'm sure he wishes he had back.  Otherwise, Woolridge scores a layup on Bird, Woolridge also turns the ball over with a terrible forced shot on a break.  MJ gets an assist taken away from him when the call a travel on a PNR that Corzine makes.  Doubtful they make that call these days.  After that, Jordan scores twice on back to back possessions and then has a 16 footer rim out on him.  Parish puts it away with a 9 footer PNR from Bird and that's it.  8 seconds left and down by 4, they double MJ and Bulls get it into Woolridge who puts up an airball 3.  

He's 2-4 in the 2nd OT with a rebound and an assist taken away.  The Bulls only had like 9 possessions as both teams were milking the clock.  He also made his first shot closer to 1:50 but not a huge deal.  Basically 5 possessions out of 9 went thru Jordan where he was 2-4 and had an assist waive off. 2 turnovers by Corzine.  Woolridge, their 2nd best player had the another 3 but he sort of sucked.  9-27 in the game for 24 points.  Not a big deal, the Bulls were woeful back then and the 86' Celtics are considered one of the 5 best teams ever.  Footage if anyone cares:

 

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Bozo_Casanova

Bozo_Casanova 26567

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There's also a larger context - Jordan was in his 3rd professional season in 1986 and hadn't peaked either physically or as a player. He probably peaked as a wining team basketball player well past his physical prime, after his return from baseball in the 95-96 season. 

Anyway- For what it's worth, LeBron James is the only NBA player ever to be swept twice in the finals. Ever.   BUT

Quote

To be fair to James, the fact that he’s made the finals enough times to get swept twice actually says more about his dominance of the Association than it does anything about his failings as a player. This year was James’ eighth—eighth!—straight finals appearance, and ninth overall. 

He's a great player. But he's not in the same class as Magic, Jordan or Bird. 

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Deej

Deej 76930

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5 hours ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

The GOAT was Magic and 1a was Jordan. LeBron is certainly the most gifted player I’ve ever seen and certainly an all time great, but he’s not competitive or transcendent at the key moments in the same way as those in the conversation of the “greatest”.

Magic and Bird were guys that would spend the offseason working on their weaknesses and adding to their game. I've never seen two guys play basketball like they did. It's stunning to go back and watch the effort they put in. 

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On 6/5/2018 at 8:27 AM, 52-80 said:

MJ's game is just prettier though, aesthetically. 

Not just that, but his competitive nature/ killer instinct was legendary.  MJ would have fucking killed JR Smith the other night... with laser beams from his eyes.

I think LeBron might be a better teammate, but fear( of letting your leader down) can be one hell of a motivator too.

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Bozo_Casanova

Bozo_Casanova 26567

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Not just that, but his competitive nature/ killer instinct was legendary.  MJ would have fucking killed JR Smith the other night... with laser beams from his eyes.
I think LeBron might be a better teammate, but fear( of letting your leader down) can be one hell of a motivator too.
but that situation doesn’t happen with Bird, Magic and Jordan. It’s a cliche but it’s true: they made their teammates better.
Bird and Magic would have made sure JR Smith (and everyone else) knew what to do, and Jordan simply would have gotten the ball.
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F250

F250 28823

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1 hour ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

but that situation doesn’t happen with Bird, Magic and Jordan. It’s a cliche but it’s true: they made their teammates better.
Bird and Magic would have made sure JR Smith (and everyone else) knew what to do, and Jordan simply would have gotten the ball.

I had this exact conversation with my teenagers, who think LeBron is the GOAT. Jordan willed his teammates to be better. The JR Smith thing just wouldn't happen under MJ. The man was a brutal field general that mandated excellence.

 

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Bozo_Casanova

Bozo_Casanova 26567

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So wait. Lebron isn't the goat because he lost this one series?

No, but this series provides several illustrations of why and how he’s not.

 

And that’s not an insult. He’s the best of his era- a historically elite, top 10, all time great. He’s just not at the Magic,Jordan,Bird level.

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