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The NBA's GOAT -- MJ? Lebron? The Field?

Patrick Bateman

By Patrick Bateman
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immortal13

immortal13 4059

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Posted
2 minutes ago, Pam Cummings said:

No, you hate lebron. That has nothing to do with anything he has done on a basketball court.

Yes I do, you shitstain. I freely admit I don't like Lebron. Are you dense? And it is for a lot of reasons and they ALL have to do with what he has done on the court. What other reasons would I have? 

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Pam Cummings

Pam Cummings 9564

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2 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

Yes I do, you shitstain. I freely admit I don't like Lebron. Are you dense? And it is for a lot of reasons and they ALL have to do with what he has done on the court. What other reasons would I have? 

No they don't. You say dumb shit like "he's arrogant, he's an asshole, he's entitled". Shut up. You'd be the exact same way if you were having your dick sucked on a national stage from the time you were 16. Which is incredible really because no athlete in history has ever lived up to more hype than lebron.

 

I get hating lebron if he's crushed your team over the years. I've always hated Durant since he was in OKC because i'm a Spurs fan and they always beat us. Then the move to GS made it that much easier. But i don't pretend that he isn't an all timer. I can appreciate what he does.

 

People like you are just miserable.

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immortal13

immortal13 4059

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8 minutes ago, Pam Cummings said:

No they don't. You say dumb shit like "he's arrogant, he's an asshole, he's entitled". Shut up. You'd be the exact same way if you were having your dick sucked on a national stage from the time you were 16. Which is incredible really because no athlete in history has ever lived up to more hype than lebron.

 

I get hating lebron if he's crushed your team over the years. I've always hated Durant since he was in OKC because i'm a Spurs fan and they always beat us. Then the move to GS made it that much easier. But i don't pretend that he isn't an all timer. I can appreciate what he does.

 

People like you are just miserable.

Fuck off. Why do you give a fuck what players I do or don't like or what my reasons are? What fucking difference does it make to you? His actions after the game friday are a perfectly good example of why I think Lebron is a douche. ...."I broke my own hand and I kept it a secret, but now I gotta wear this cast. I don't know why there isn't any obvious swelling.....derp derp." And dumb shits like you eat it up....lulz

So stupid that you justify your hate for Durant. This is a goddamn Texas message board, cunt. 

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PittsburghTiger

PittsburghTiger 6137

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Interesting stat:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_per_g_career_p.html

Career points per game in the playoffs.

 

Rank Player PPG
1. Michael Jordan* 33.45
2. Allen Iverson* 29.73
3. Jerry West* 29.13
4. LeBron James 28.92
5. Kevin Durant 28.79
6. Rick Barry* 27.33
7. Elgin Baylor* 27.04
8. George Gervin* 26.46
9. Stephen Curry 26.09
10. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.90
11. Kobe Bryant 25.64
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Brew

Brew 3045

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6 hours ago, immortal13 said:

Fuck off. Why do you give a fuck what players I do or don't like or what my reasons are? What fucking difference does it make to you? His actions after the game friday are a perfectly good example of why I think Lebron is a douche. ...."I broke my own hand and I kept it a secret, but now I gotta wear this cast. I don't know why there isn't any obvious swelling.....derp derp." And dumb shits like you eat it up....lulz

So stupid that you justify your hate for Durant. This is a goddamn Texas message board, cunt. 

I would imagine he gives a fuck because it is somewhat tired at this point. No different than the knob slobbers are tired. However, your complete disregard for how good a player he is and also the fact that you beat that dead horse in every thread puts you above the knob slobbers on the annoying list.

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immortal13

immortal13 4059

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46 minutes ago, Brew said:

I would imagine he gives a fuck because it is somewhat tired at this point. No different than the knob slobbers are tired. However, your complete disregard for how good a player he is and also the fact that you beat that dead horse in every thread puts you above the knob slobbers on the annoying list.

Wrong. I never said he wasn't a great player, ever.

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Eskimohorn

Eskimohorn 5612

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Losers cant be the best. Lebron has feasted on a historically weak Eastern Conference. This the reason why his teams get to the Finals and mostly lose to superior Western Conference opponents. Most years only 2-3 east teams would even make the west playoffs in this era. The Celtics and 76ers will catch up soon. Why Lebron will jump ship.

Jordan had no weaknesses in his game. Lebron has improved his shooting skills but is still inconsistent. Jordan could not be guarded by a single defender, ever. He rarely had off days. Put George or Leonard on James and Bron shoots 40%. His best offense is barreling into the lane and hoping the refs bail him out. It’s why he bitches so much. He’s a bully.

There’s not a single Lebron championship team that would beat a Jordan championship team. Pippen, Jordan, Rodman, Ron Harper and Kukoc could totally deal with anything they had to offer. And that’s not even handicapping for modern S&C.

This whole thread is a joke.

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Hornius Emeritus

Hornius Emeritus 12413

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, Eskimohorn said:



Jordan had no weaknesses in his game. Lebron has improved his shooting skills but is still inconsistent. 

 

?????  Lebron has hit at least 60% of his two point attempts in five different seasons, including the last two. Jordan's best season was .553.
 

Edited by Hornius Emeritus
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Bozo_Casanova

Bozo_Casanova 26273

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Jordan could not be guarded by a single defender, ever. 

 

its not like he completely shut him down, but Rolando Blackman could hang with 23.  Jordan specifically has talked about Joe Dumars doing the best job guarding him 1:1, how he had his worst night against Jeff Malone of the Bullets (IIRC), but that the guy who he looked forward to playing the most because of the challenge was Rolando Blackman. Blackman was the toughest to play for Jordan.

 

He most looked forward to playing the guy who challenged him the most. That’s a champion mentality.

 

 

 

 

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Goo Punch

Goo Punch 4275

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Another big difference: LeBron has and has always had a bunch of teammates who fawn over him; guys who just look up at him and admire how amazing he is; everyone is deferential. Not so in the 80’s and 90’s with Jordan and his teammates. You think Charles Oakley, and Scottie Pippen, and Dennis Rodman, and Horace Grant, and Steve Kerr were all like, “OMG Michael Jordan”? Hell no. Hell, LeBron even has a bunch of foes who just publicly fawn over him sometimes. MJ’s foes were a bunch of hard, old school 80’s cats who were like, “Man fuck Michael Jordan I’ll punch him in his nose when I see him.” And to me, this hurts LeBron. This feeds into his need to worry about his image. MJ was worried about beating whatever was in front of him.

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Eskimohorn

Eskimohorn 5612

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?????  Lebron has hit at least 60% of his two point attempts in five different seasons, including the last two. Jordan's best season was .553.
 


Barreling through the lane through tanking Eastern Conference teams doesn’t make up for inconsistent jump shooting and turnovers from his iso sets. He’s not as skilled as Jordan. His shot leaves him at times. He’s guardable.

Jordan was crap in your pants, better guard him with the entire team. You could hold him, knock him down, he’d keep coming. He’d go over, under, around you. And he was nearly always effective because he was highly skilled and did not rely on his athleticism.

With respect to James, he’s so good there’s not a position for him to be the best at (but small forward, for sure). But had he been in the Western Conference against Lakers, Mavs, Spurs, Warriors he’d not be in this conversation.
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Hornius Emeritus

Hornius Emeritus 12413

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1 hour ago, Eskimohorn said:

 


Barreling through the lane through tanking Eastern Conference teams doesn’t make up for inconsistent jump shooting and turnovers from his iso sets.

 

 

Being that Lebron's field goal percentage is higher than MJ's was, this is clearly disputable.

What is not disputable is that, over the course of his career, Lebron has taken almost 2.5 times as many three point attempts per game as Jordan did. The last two years Lebron has hit nearly 55% of his field goal attempts while talking almost three times as many threes per game as Jordan did.  So, while he's shooting a higher field goal percentage than MJ did, a significantly higher percentage of his shots are three pointers.

Anyway, the question is immaterial, since Wilt is the greatest player of all time. MJ and Lebron are vying for second. 

 

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Eskimohorn

Eskimohorn 5612

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Being that Lebron's field goal percentage is higher than MJ's was, this is clearly disputable.

What is not disputable is that, over the course of his career, Lebron has taken almost 2.5 times as many three point attempts per game as Jordan did. The last two years Lebron has hit nearly 55% of his field goal attempts while talking almost three times as many threes per game as Jordan did.  So, while he's shooting a higher field goal percentage than MJ did, a significantly higher percentage of his shots are three pointers.

Anyway, the question is immaterial, since Wilt is the greatest player of all time. MJ and Lebron are vying for second. 

 


Lebron’s got holes in his games. He can be defended and is less effective against superior competition than Jordan. Lebron also can struggle at the line.

Wilt was a 51% free throw shooter and scored eight points less per game in the playoffs than the regular season. He can’t be the GOAT. Again, once he played against real competition (guys over 6’6), he wilted.
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Hornius Emeritus

Hornius Emeritus 12413

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45 minutes ago, Eskimohorn said:

Wilt was a 51% free throw shooter and scored eight points less per game in the playoffs than the regular season. He can’t be the GOAT. Again, once he played against real competition (guys over 6’6), he wilted.

 

 

That's just horseshit. in 94 games, Wilt averaged 29.9 points and 28.2 rebounds per game vs. 6'9"  Bill Russell, perhaps the greatest defensive player of all time. 

 

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HookEm

HookEm 2442

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2 hours ago, Hornius Emeritus said:

 

That's just horseshit. in 94 games, Wilt averaged 29.9 points and 28.2 rebounds per game vs. 6'9"  Bill Russell, perhaps the greatest defensive player of all time. 

 

What was the outcome of most of those games?

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HookEm

HookEm 2442

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1 hour ago, Hornius Emeritus said:

This would be a relevant point in a thread about the greatest teams of all time.

Sounds like the kind of excuses people used to make about Russell Westbrook.  They were basically the same player.

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aggie08

aggie08 21415

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Posted (edited)

A little wood to stoke the fire, here are the 50 greatest individual postseasons (from a statistical perspective) in modern NBA History:

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23651740/ranking-50-greatest-individual-postseasons-modern-nba-history

The dudes with multiple appearances on the list are the usual suspects:

LeBron - 8 times (#2, 8,10,16, 20, 27, 33, 48)

MJ - 7 times (#1, 5, 17, 23, 25, 31, 45)

Duncan - 4 times (#3, 13, 26, 36)

Shaq - 3 times (#4, 6, 14)

Hakeem - 3 times (#7, 34, 37)

Bird - 3 times (#11, 12, 24)

Magic - 3 times (#19, 29, 30)

Kobe - 3 times (#22, 38, 43)

KD - 3 times (#39, 42, 44)

Steph - 2 times (#21, 28)

Pippen - 2 times (#35, 40)

Edited by aggie08
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Catdaddyhorn

Catdaddyhorn 3444

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

Can you imagine Jordan ever being a little bitch sidekick like this?

 

You mean the Jordan who brought the dude who beat him out for the high school varsity team to his Hall of Fame induction ceremony for the expressed purpose of holding the ultimate scoreboard over him? That guy? You're asking if that particular Jordan is a bitch?

Edited by Catdaddyhorn
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Don Johnson

Don Johnson 4745

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45 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

You mean the Jordan who brought the dude who beat him out for the high school varsity team to his Hall of Fame induction ceremony for the expressed purpose of holding the ultimate scoreboard over him? That guy? You're asking if that particular Jordan is a bitch?

Jordan is a huge, petty asshole.  No one is surprised by that.

But can you see him following a shit talking Isaiah around.... "yeah, yeah, what he said."

Was a pretty beta moment for LBJ.  Not to mention that Dirk clowned them a few days alter.

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HookEm

HookEm 2442

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14 hours ago, Hornius Emeritus said:

 

So Bill Russell is the greatest player of all time, being that he won 9 championships?

 

He is certainly more relevant to the conversation than Wilt Chamberlain.  Oh, and Bill Russell has 11 championships (and 5 MVPs vs. Wilt's 4).

And let's not act like Wilt didn't also play with some decent players.  He won nothing playing alongside Paul Arizin (Hall of Fame).  And he only won 2 rings playing with freaking Jerry West, Elgin Baylor and Gail Goodrich.

Wilt was a modern day Dwight Howard.

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PittsburghTiger

PittsburghTiger 6137

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5 hours ago, HookEm said:

He is certainly more relevant to the conversation than Wilt Chamberlain.  Oh, and Bill Russell has 11 championships (and 5 MVPs vs. Wilt's 4).

And let's not act like Wilt didn't also play with some decent players.  He won nothing playing alongside Paul Arizin (Hall of Fame).  And he only won 2 rings playing with freaking Jerry West, Elgin Baylor and Gail Goodrich.

Wilt was a modern day Dwight Howard.

I'd say that is a bit harsh.

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Bozo_Casanova

Bozo_Casanova 26273

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Jordan is a huge, petty asshole.  No one is surprised by that.
But can you see him following a shit talking Isaiah around.... "yeah, yeah, what he said."
Was a pretty beta moment for LBJ.  Not to mention that Dirk clowned them a few days alter.

But that’s kind of my point about LeBron. Those Miami teams were Wade’s, regardless of the fact that LeBron was usually the high scorer. As much as I can’t stand Wade, Wade was the guy, and if you aren’t the guy you aren’t the GOAT.
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HookEm

HookEm 2442

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Maybe the first year they were Wade's teams.  Maybe.  But that is ultimately why they lost... because there was no clear alpha dog.  It wasn't until LeBron took over that they really started dominating.

It is interesting to look at LeBron's vs. Wade's Playoffs Usage in the 4 years in Miami:

  • 2012: LeBron 26.9% - Wade 30.4% - Delta (-3.5)
  • 2013: LeBron 33.4% - Wade 29.9% - Delta 3.5
  • 2014: LeBron 29.2% - Wade 25.3% - Delta 3.9
  • 2015: LeBron 31.6% - Wade 27.4% - Delta 4.2

In the first year, it was clearly Wade's team.  By the 2nd year it was definitely LeBron's team and his usage vs. Wade's grew every single year until he ultimately left Miami.

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PittsburghTiger

PittsburghTiger 6137

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2 hours ago, HookEm said:

Maybe the first year they were Wade's teams.  Maybe.  But that is ultimately why they lost... because there was no clear alpha dog.  It wasn't until LeBron took over that they really started dominating.

It is interesting to look at LeBron's vs. Wade's Playoffs Usage in the 4 years in Miami:

  • 2012: LeBron 26.9% - Wade 30.4% - Delta (-3.5)
  • 2013: LeBron 33.4% - Wade 29.9% - Delta 3.5
  • 2014: LeBron 29.2% - Wade 25.3% - Delta 3.9
  • 2015: LeBron 31.6% - Wade 27.4% - Delta 4.2

In the first year, it was clearly Wade's team.  By the 2nd year it was definitely LeBron's team and his usage vs. Wade's grew every single year until he ultimately left Miami.

I'm not doubting these numbers at all but what does it actually mean? What does usage mean?

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HookEm

HookEm 2442

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For me, it means that LeBron was involved in fewer plays that year because he was deferring to Wade when it really mattered in the playoffs.  In fact, that was the main narrative in the first half of LeBron's career - he would routinely pass the ball on the most important plays of the game.  Sometimes it worked out and sometimes it didn't.  

Outside of his first year in the NBA, Michael Jordan never had a usage lower than 32.9% in the playoffs and never had a usage even close to approaching LeBron's 26.9% in 2012.  It shows that Jordan carried more of a load in his titles than LeBron did. 

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Bozo_Casanova

Bozo_Casanova 26273

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Posted
Maybe the first year they were Wade's teams.  Maybe.  But that is ultimately why they lost... because there was no clear alpha dog.  It wasn't until LeBron took over that they really started dominating.
It is interesting to look at LeBron's vs. Wade's Playoffs Usage in the 4 years in Miami:
  • 2012: LeBron 26.9% - Wade 30.4% - Delta (-3.5)
  • 2013: LeBron 33.4% - Wade 29.9% - Delta 3.5
  • 2014: LeBron 29.2% - Wade 25.3% - Delta 3.9
  • 2015: LeBron 31.6% - Wade 27.4% - Delta 4.2
In the first year, it was clearly Wade's team.  By the 2nd year it was definitely LeBron's team and his usage vs. Wade's grew every single year until he ultimately left Miami.

Usage? Please. That was Wade’s team the whole time. LeBron was his gunner.
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Patrick Bateman

Patrick Bateman 3903

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Guess I don't understand the whole Lebron/D Wade thing here..... It's similar to the current GSW situation except the difference in talent was larger.  DWade may have been the face of the franchise in Miami because he had already delivered a ship and was/is beloved.  However, Lebron was by far the best player on the team and controlled the action when needed most (except in the first playoff run notably).  In 2011, in the Finals, Lebron's USG% was 3rd on the team..... below DWade and Bosh.  Crazy!  But the rest of the tenure, Lebron was by far the best player and engine which propelled them towards winning.

 

 

 

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Goo Punch

Goo Punch 4275

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Guess I don't understand the whole Lebron/D Wade thing here..... It's similar to the current GSW situation except the difference in talent was larger.  DWade may have been the face of the franchise in Miami because he had already delivered a ship and was/is beloved.  However, Lebron was by far the best player on the team and controlled the action when needed most (except in the first playoff run notably).  In 2011, in the Finals, Lebron's USG% was 3rd on the team..... below DWade and Bosh.  Crazy!  But the rest of the tenure, Lebron was by far the best player and engine which propelled them towards winning.

 

 

 

Well as far as my point goes, I don't recall Jordan ever referring to Pippen as Batman or peanut butter. <-- Weirdest sentence ever, but I still have a point. LeBron *insisted* that he was D Wade's sidekick and was adamant about it. Kind of hard to be the greatest player who ever lived when 2/3 of your rings came as a sidekick.

Edited by Goo Punch
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Thatguy

Thatguy 8492

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11 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

Well as far as my point goes, I don't recall Jordan ever referring to Pippen as Batman or peanut butter. <-- Weirdest sentence ever, but I still have a point. LeBron *insisted* that he was D Wade's sidekick and was adamant about it. Kind of hard to be the greatest player who ever lived when 2/3 of your rings came as a sidekick.

sidekick.........right.............

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Thatguy

Thatguy 8492

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20 hours ago, HookEm said:

For me, it means that LeBron was involved in fewer plays that year because he was deferring to Wade when it really mattered in the playoffs.  In fact, that was the main narrative in the first half of LeBron's career - he would routinely pass the ball on the most important plays of the game.  Sometimes it worked out and sometimes it didn't.  

Outside of his first year in the NBA, Michael Jordan never had a usage lower than 32.9% in the playoffs and never had a usage even close to approaching LeBron's 26.9% in 2012.  It shows that Jordan carried more of a load in his titles than LeBron did. 

   He routinely passed the ball when he was the only player worth a damn with the Cavs.........right........that's how you score 25 straight points to close out the Pistons en route to a finals trip.

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