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The NBA's GOAT -- MJ? Lebron? The Field?

Patrick Bateman

By Patrick Bateman
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BurntOrangeBlooded15

BurntOrangeBlooded15 1564

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Jordan and LBJ on the court are interchangeable.  LBJ will have the stats where MJ has the rings.  Where things differ for me is the little things that surround it or are off the court.  

LBJ, KD, Steph, Kyrie, Kobe, etc all have shoe deals because of MJ. No one in the world could re-release the same exact shoe every year and people spend 300+ on em. There are football and baseball teams/players wearing a basketball logo on their shit.  LBJ logo isn’t doing that.  

 The game is played the way it is today because of the flair and showman type of style MJ brought.  Hell LBJ wears 23 because of Jordan (just like any kid that played ball from the 80s on). Every kid that can dunk with some athleticism tries to dunk from the FT line.  Why? Jordan did. 

LBJ is a top 3 player ever.  Not the GOAT though.  

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Kermit

Kermit 3128

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18 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Mj wasn't A bitch tho

Yes he was. He did many bitchesque things, but unlike Lebron he was a cold-blooded killer and was worshipped for it. MJ had the benefits of no social media, different athlete expectations, and groupies that kept their mouth shut. He really is the Last Unicorn. His faults have been swept away. I do think he stands alone as far as the pinnacle of NBA supremacy goes, but he was a horrible human being. All the shit Tiger gets now, who do you think he learned it from? 

Lebron would earn major points from me if he called a player a fucking midget in the flow of the game and dared him to shoot it. Or maybe if he acted human. Everything for Lebron is so analytical. 

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Post Oak

Post Oak 20183

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I don't hear the stories of players or coaches telling other players not to piss LBJ off.  

I definitely remember hearing that when teams played MJ.  

I'm not saying teams don't fear Lebron I'm saying that people were scared of Michael.  

I think that matters. I don't know how much but some.  

He ruined Mugsy and fucked up Clyde.

 

Team MJ for life

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52-80

52-80 19077

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1 hour ago, Kermit said:

Yes he was. He did many bitchesque things, but unlike Lebron he was a cold-blooded killer and was worshipped for it. MJ had the benefits of no social media, different athlete expectations, and groupies that kept their mouth shut. He really is the Last Unicorn. His faults have been swept away. I do think he stands alone as far as the pinnacle of NBA supremacy goes, but he was a horrible human being. All the shit Tiger gets now, who do you think he learned it from? 

Lebron would earn major points from me if he called a player a fucking midget in the flow of the game and dared him to shoot it. Or maybe if he acted human. Everything for Lebron is so analytical. 

he's an asshole, but he's not a bitch.

lebron... not an asshole, but total bitch

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UTDD

UTDD 362

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This is such a difficult topic without getting really into the weeds in what factors are meaningful to one evaluating this kind of thing.  I just would say for simplicity that LeBron James is the most overall gifted basketball player I have ever seen, but MJ has had the greatest career in NBA history when you consider his overall metrics, accolades, stats, and most critically, his mind.  My Top 3 on the Mount Rushmore of basketball in how I would define GOAT personally is #1 MJ, # 2 LeBron James, and #3 Kareem.  Having said that, LeBron could end up with a peak pretty comparable to MJ and longevity comparable to Kareem which would be very impressive even if he ends up with only three titles.  If LeBron was somehow blessed with the almost psychopathic drive of MJ or Kobe Bryant (Kobe's a great player but far inferior to these two others overall) and his skill set, that would have been something to see.   

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immortal13

immortal13 4059

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19 hours ago, Kermit said:

Yes he was. He did many bitchesque things, but unlike Lebron he was a cold-blooded killer and was worshipped for it. MJ had the benefits of no social media, different athlete expectations, and groupies that kept their mouth shut. He really is the Last Unicorn. His faults have been swept away. I do think he stands alone as far as the pinnacle of NBA supremacy goes, but he was a horrible human being. All the shit Tiger gets now, who do you think he learned it from? 

Lebron would earn major points from me if he called a player a fucking midget in the flow of the game and dared him to shoot it. Or maybe if he acted human. Everything for Lebron is so analytical. 

Jordan never proclaimed himself the greatest player of all time. He never had to. Lebron making such a ridiculous statement like that is just proof of his insecurity and that he is not the GOAT. One shitty championship for Cleveland did not earn him that title. What a self-aggrandizing douche

Edited by immortal13
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d2o

d2o 1602

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19 hours ago, BurntOrangeBlooded15 said:

Jordan and LBJ on the court are interchangeable.  LBJ will have the stats where MJ has the rings.  Where things differ for me is the little things that surround it or are off the court.  

LBJ, KD, Steph, Kyrie, Kobe, etc all have shoe deals because of MJ. No one in the world could re-release the same exact shoe every year and people spend 300+ on em. There are football and baseball teams/players wearing a basketball logo on their shit.  LBJ logo isn’t doing that.  

 The game is played the way it is today because of the flair and showman type of style MJ brought.  Hell LBJ wears 23 because of Jordan (just like any kid that played ball from the 80s on). Every kid that can dunk with some athleticism tries to dunk from the FT line.  Why? Jordan did. 

LBJ is a top 3 player ever.  Not the GOAT though.  

Its funny how people say stuff like this like MJ was some complete revolution and use it as proof that he was the best.   MJ built off those that came before him just like the guys today built off MJ.    Why did MJ jump from the FT line?   Cause Doc did.   MJ had a shoe deal cause Doc did.   He took it to the next level much like today's guys have taken and improved on things he did.

I think it can be debated that either Magic, Cap, MJ or LBJ could be the GOAT.    I don't think there is a definitive way to prove that any of them are.   It depends on what you are looking for.

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SwanderedTalent

SwanderedTalent 5761

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I'm looking for a dude who works his way through the Celtics, Pistons, and Lakers dynasties and then establishes his own, superior dynasty rather than saying "my team is full of spares, I'm going to go Lucky Pierre and join my friend's team so I can win one and stop the media and fans from saying hurtful things about me."

Different era, different type of man. 

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Pam Cummings

Pam Cummings 9564

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On 6/17/2018 at 10:12 PM, Patrick Bateman said:

That was an interesting game..... Nobody on the Bulls really showed up and it's also during the escalation of ugly ball for the NBA.  Jordan's global popularity simply drove the ratings as such.  Nobody on the Bulls scored more than 8 points besides Kukoc (15).  Scottie?  8 points in 26 listless minutes.  Kevin Love laughs at Scottie that game.  Rodman?  7 points, 8 rebounds.  Not terrible but not exactly making a huge difference.  The game was so fucking ugly back then.  Bulls won with 87 points.  Jordan accounted almost 54% of his team's points and only had 1 turnover.  1 turnover on 55% USG?  

Really the game sort of sucked in the 90's.  A lot of guys (including myself) grew up in the 90's so there's a lot of rosy retrospection but for about 15 years, NBA basketball was a beating.  The pace in that game was a disgusting 76.3.  Compare that with the 90.7 of the last Finals.  Jordan had a whopping 55.1 USG%.  What?  The two teams together put up 131 FGA.  Last game of this season?  173.  Both teams combined to be 6-20 from 3 in 98'.  Last game of this season, Steph Curry alone was 7-15 from 3.  The two teams this year shot 65 3's. 

It's almost not the same sport.  It was like watching smash mouth I formation Big Ten football vs the wide open spread offenses of today.  In a lot of ways, Jordan was the ultimate unicorn, but bad for the game because there were so many pale comparisons and ugly copycats.  The modern era of ISO basketball from wings (not Oscar Robertson) is ushered in on account of the stupidity of the rules in the 90's and Jordan's unique ISO greatness.  He was a miracle and in some ways folks don't want to face, a curse for the league.... Everyone wanted to be like Mike.  Nobody ever could....

Lebron's his own unicorn.  You can appreciate both of them..... their similarities and their differences....

 

Great post right here.....90s ball was absolutely ugly, just dreadful....full of absolute stiffs who would never make it in the league today....

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SwanderedTalent

SwanderedTalent 5761

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3 hours ago, Pam Cummings said:

Celtics and Pistons beat him up until they got old, and Magic got AIDs....

 

How about a guy who wins a professional sports title in Cleveland pretty much on his own tho

yeah cause Chicago was fucking Titletown when MJ got there

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Pam Cummings

Pam Cummings 9564

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1 hour ago, SwanderedTalent said:

yeah cause Chicago was fucking Titletown when MJ got there

They had the Bears, but yeah definitely would still be 0fer in basketball if not for Jumpman.

 

That said, Chicago is a nice American city and Cleveland sucks and nobody wants to go there.

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Patrick Bateman

Patrick Bateman 3903

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2 hours ago, Pam Cummings said:

They had the Bears, but yeah definitely would still be 0fer in basketball if not for Jumpman.

 

That said, Chicago is a nice American city and Cleveland sucks and nobody wants to go there.

Nada for the Cubs and White Sox at that time too..... Not sure about the Blackhawks, but assume they had won some titles.  So basically, 1 championship in the city for the big 3 sports for like 30 years.

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Goo Punch

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i don't care if people want to try and deny it, players wanted to win more back then. period. not even an argument. yeah, the game was not as refined as it is now, and players were less skilled- but they also weren't worried about how many followers they had on snapface, they didn't have a brand or an image to portray and protect, they just really really really wanted to win.

Winning > everything up until the 2000's. You still have your Iversons, your Kobes- your MVP level players who would put themselves through hell and back if it meant winning (yes I know Iverson never actually won a title, but fanny if he didn't put everything on the line in the name of winning), but the league used to be full of guys like that, and MJ was not only the best player, he was the best winner when that's what the league was all about. Like i've said, these people were borderline sociopathic- there's nothing Michael Jordan wouldn't do to beat you; same goes for Zeke, Chuck, Karl Malone- hell even Larry and Dr J boxed. Like it or not LeBron and hissoxial activist, family man persona don't have that insane hunger that guys from MJ's era had. It's a real thing, and it definitely separates the two of them in my mind. 

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Bozo_Casanova

Bozo_Casanova 26273

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I think Kobe had a lot of the same ultra competitive traits as MJ. If you took Kobe's spirit and put it with LeBrons athleticism and skill you would probably have the goat.

To me this is the definitive argument. James is the best player of his generation, the most gifted physical specimen I’ve ever seen on a a basketball court, and a top ten all time player, but you can’t call yourself the GOAT when you aren’t even the man on your own team at times in your career.

 

He lacks killer instinct. It’s probably a good thing for him personally.

 

Guys I put ahead of LeBron:

Magic

Jordan

Kareem

Bird

 

 

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Pam Cummings

Pam Cummings 9564

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6 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

i don't care if people want to try and deny it, players wanted to win more back then. period. not even an argument. yeah, the game was not as refined as it is now, and players were less skilled- but they also weren't worried about how many followers they had on snapface, they didn't have a brand or an image to portray and protect, they just really really really wanted to win.

Winning > everything up until the 2000's. You still have your Iversons, your Kobes- your MVP level players who would put themselves through hell and back if it meant winning (yes I know Iverson never actually won a title, but fanny if he didn't put everything on the line in the name of winning), but the league used to be full of guys like that, and MJ was not only the best player, he was the best winner when that's what the league was all about. Like i've said, these people were borderline sociopathic- there's nothing Michael Jordan wouldn't do to beat you; same goes for Zeke, Chuck, Karl Malone- hell even Larry and Dr J boxed. Like it or not LeBron and hissoxial activist, family man persona don't have that insane hunger that guys from MJ's era had. It's a real thing, and it definitely separates the two of them in my mind. 

If winning didnt matter, lebron wouldnt have left cleveland and durant wouldn't have left okc. 

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aggie08

aggie08 21415

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34 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

i don't care if people want to try and deny it, players wanted to win more back then. period. not even an argument. yeah, the game was not as refined as it is now, and players were less skilled- but they also weren't worried about how many followers they had on snapface, they didn't have a brand or an image to portray and protect, they just really really really wanted to win.

Winning > everything up until the 2000's. You still have your Iversons, your Kobes- your MVP level players who would put themselves through hell and back if it meant winning (yes I know Iverson never actually won a title, but fanny if he didn't put everything on the line in the name of winning), but the league used to be full of guys like that, and MJ was not only the best player, he was the best winner when that's what the league was all about. Like i've said, these people were borderline sociopathic- there's nothing Michael Jordan wouldn't do to beat you; same goes for Zeke, Chuck, Karl Malone- hell even Larry and Dr J boxed. Like it or not LeBron and hissoxial activist, family man persona don't have that insane hunger that guys from MJ's era had. It's a real thing, and it definitely separates the two of them in my mind. 

Yeah, I just don't buy into all that. Guys today train on their craft non-stop, work tirelessly on the margins of the game in the hopes that it will make them 2% more effective/efficient, sleep in hyperbaric champers, eat specially designed diets, swear off hard alcohol for the entire season, go to sleep at 8pm, etc. The guys who already have an established name and a big contract don't need to do all this, but they do anyway. The constant brand pushing and social media presence can be annoying, but I don't care how many smiles and daps are exchanged: LeBron and Steph want to destroy the other in June. KD wants to shoot right in your eye, knowing you can't stop him, and stare at you backpedaling down the court.

You mention AI, who I also love...if he was REALLY dedicated to winning, maybe he would have attended a few more practices, known what the inside of a weight room looked like, and not stayed out drinking until 4am most nights. Maybe that would have been enough to get him over the hump. There's more to wanting to win than projecting animosity towards your opponent.

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Mole

Mole 4320

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19 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

What?

The singlemindedness that gives Jordan that extra push above Lebron also made everyone around him miserable. His greatness came at the expense of his goodness.

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Goo Punch

Goo Punch 4275

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34 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Yeah, I just don't buy into all that. Guys today train on their craft non-stop, work tirelessly on the margins of the game in the hopes that it will make them 2% more effective/efficient, sleep in hyperbaric champers, eat specially designed diets, swear off hard alcohol for the entire season, go to sleep at 8pm, etc. The guys who already have an established name and a big contract don't need to do all this, but they do anyway. The constant brand pushing and social media presence can be annoying, but I don't care how many smiles and daps are exchanged: LeBron and Steph want to destroy the other in June. KD wants to shoot right in your eye, knowing you can't stop him, and stare at you backpedaling down the court.

You mention AI, who I also love...if he was REALLY dedicated to winning, maybe he would have attended a few more practices, known what the inside of a weight room looked like, and not stayed out drinking until 4am most nights. Maybe that would have been enough to get him over the hump. There's more to wanting to win than projecting animosity towards your opponent.

exercising and eating right are not what i'm talking about. i'm talking about a manic, deep seeded desire to win above all. and frankly i don't think it's even remotely close nowadays, which makes perfect sense. the guys who played in the 80's and 90's grew up in a time when the NBA was about 1/100th as large/successful/important as it is today. and because of that being an nba player was only a fraction of as glamorous as it is today. winning was simply everything. you weren't playing for a $30m/yr contract, the game wasn't being watched by hundreds of millions of people worldwide- the ultimate achievement was winning. 

and the thing is, this isn't necessarily some wonderful virtue that makes "the good old days" better than today, it's just the order of things- every generation that comes along is more primadonna-ish than the last one, and certainly a part of that has come from the game becoming more and more about skills and specialists than gritty, tough, all-around okay guys who will play balls out every night. it's a good thing. 

but with all of that said the current generation absolutely 100% does not look at winning the way that guys who played 20+ years ago did. you make it to the league, you get a fat check, you live a nice life, and you did your job. yes, some players do still pour their blood, sweat, and tears into the game, but again we're talking about the guys at the very top of the mountain here- I have images in my head of guys like LeBron, KD, Russell, etc wilting at the end of playoff losses, showing poor body language, not going all out for loose balls, giving up on plays that don't go well- they get disheartened and don't fight like their lives depend on it, which for better or worse is how a lot of guys- including the greats- played the game in the 20th century. 

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Goo Punch

Goo Punch 4275

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also, when it comes to mental toughness, you'll never convince me in a million years that today's crop of stars is in the same galaxy as guys like MJ, Larry, Magic, Zeke, Chuck, Pippen, Malone, Oakley, Payton, etc- stars of the game who were fucking ruthless people. i'm sure it may have been different had they grown up in the internet age, but they didn't, and because of that these mfer's were absolutely ruthless. kobe is the last of that kind and he's gone now. those days are done. 

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52-80

52-80 19077

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12 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

. the guys who played in the 80's and 90's grew up in a time when the NBA was about 1/100th as large/successful/important as it is today. and because of that being an nba player was only a fraction of as glamorous as it is today. winning was simply everything. you weren't playing for a $30m/yr contract, the game wasn't being watched by hundreds of millions of people worldwide- the ultimate achievement was winning.

 

 

What is this fake news history?  Is the 80s/90s NBA supposed to be like 1950s football, played by mailmen and garbage workers? 

 

Gary Payton started his career in 1990 with a rookie contract worth adjustment-inflated 4M per year.  Trae Young, DeAaron Fox, are earning about 5-8M/year. 

 

The top 4 pro leagues have always been top 4 and players just want to win as bad today.  This stupid history revision makes it sound like 90s NBA was a backwater sideact

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Eskimohorn

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I would take Lebron over Bird, but a prime Larry Bird was pretty amazing.  It’s not an indefensible take.
Jordan still scored around 30 a game on a good FG% and won titles every year in the late 90s when he was way past his athletic prime and the style of play was murderball.  I know it’s an unprovable hypothetical, but I’m convinced a 1991 Michael Jordan would average 40 a game in today’s league.  Yeah, athletes get bigger, stronger, faster in each new generation, but if James Harden can get anywhere on the court he wants and to the FT line at will, I’m pretty sure MJ could deal with the level of modern athleticism.


Jordan in a league without hand checking, hard fouls, packed lanes and with even better fitness would be ridiculous.
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d2o

d2o 1602

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12 hours ago, longhornmatt said:

I would take Lebron over Bird, but a prime Larry Bird was pretty amazing.  It’s not an indefensible take.

Jordan still scored around 30 a game on a good FG% and won titles every year in the late 90s when he was way past his athletic prime and the style of play was murderball.  I know it’s an unprovable hypothetical, but I’m convinced a 1991 Michael Jordan would average 40 a game in today’s league.  Yeah, athletes get bigger, stronger, faster in each new generation, but if James Harden can get anywhere on the court he wants and to the FT line at will, I’m pretty sure MJ could deal with the level of modern athleticism.

You say that like Harden is some sort of athletic slob.  He is an incredible athlete.

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NowThis

NowThis 931

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9 hours ago, Eskimohorn said:

 


Jordan in a league without hand checking, hard fouls, packed lanes and with even better fitness would be ridiculous.

 

MJ would average 43 these days since he would beat the dude off the dribble and have a clear path to dunk

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VolenteHawk

VolenteHawk 495

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16 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

but with all of that said the current generation absolutely 100% does not look at winning the way that guys who played 20+ years ago did. you make it to the league, you get a fat check, you live a nice life, and you did your job. yes, some players do still pour their blood, sweat, and tears into the game, but again we're talking about the guys at the very top of the mountain here- I have images in my head of guys like LeBron, KD, Russell, etc wilting at the end of playoff losses, showing poor body language, not going all out for loose balls, giving up on plays that don't go well- they get disheartened and don't fight like their lives depend on it, which for better or worse is how a lot of guys- including the greats- played the game in the 20th century. 

Disheartened? Poor body language? That’s all pretty subjective.  Objectively...Scottie Pippen quite literally quit on his team and refused to go back into a game. Allen Iverson is more famous for skipped practices than he is for dragging a dogshit team to the finals.

I think you underestimate the sacrifices modern NBA players make in the name of winning, and you have more nostalgia for the 90s era competitiveness than those guys deserve. It reminds me of the Kobe apologists who tried to hang their hat on how clutch he was until we figured out how to measure “close and late” performance and LeBron’s numbers murdered the argument.

 

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d2o

d2o 1602

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2 hours ago, VolenteHawk said:

Disheartened? Poor body language? That’s all pretty subjective.  Objectively...Scottie Pippen quite literally quit on his team and refused to go back into a game. Allen Iverson is more famous for skipped practices than he is for dragging a dogshit team to the finals.

I think you underestimate the sacrifices modern NBA players make in the name of winning, and you have more nostalgia for the 90s era competitiveness than those guys deserve. It reminds me of the Kobe apologists who tried to hang their hat on how clutch he was until we figured out how to measure “close and late” performance and LeBron’s numbers murdered the argument.

 

A lot of people mistake hard fouls and dirty play for "wanting to win more"   Plus everything was better when were kids and those guys were our heroes.   

Looking at today's players with adult eyes we see somethings differently.   Especially when you add in the crazy exposure we have to the guys now.  We know all types of intimate personal details about guys today that we had no idea about from the guys back then.   Many of those details are cited as reasons for not liking/respecting guys today.

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Vic Mackey

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20 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

exercising and eating right are not what i'm talking about. i'm talking about a manic, deep seeded desire to win above all. and frankly i don't think it's even remotely close nowadays, which makes perfect sense. the guys who played in the 80's and 90's grew up in a time when the NBA was about 1/100th as large/successful/important as it is today. and because of that being an nba player was only a fraction of as glamorous as it is today. winning was simply everything. you weren't playing for a $30m/yr contract, the game wasn't being watched by hundreds of millions of people worldwide- the ultimate achievement was winning. 

 

You are way off base here. You act like the NBA was some local intramural league in that era. It was extremely popular in that time frame. It just didn't have social media and 24/7 reporting like it does today.

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immortal13

immortal13 4059

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27 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

You are way off base here. You act like the NBA was some local intramural league in that era. It was extremely popular in that time frame. It just didn't have social media and 24/7 reporting like it does today.

He doesn't know what he is talking about as usual. The NBA was huge back then but Jordan created a hysteria that had never been there before. I remember in jr high every kid had Jordan posters/pictures lining their lockers. 

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Mole

Mole 4320

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Regarding the issue of decreased pay and increased desire to win, read Jim Bouton’s Ball Four. Sure it was a different sport, but the money was worse than 80s NBA and Bouton describes pretending to look upset after losses when all he wanted to do was “beaver hunt.”

People are people and they always get distracted.

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immortal13

immortal13 4059

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1 hour ago, Mole said:

Regarding the issue of decreased pay and increased desire to win, read Jim Bouton’s Ball Four. Sure it was a different sport, but the money was worse than 80s NBA and Bouton describes pretending to look upset after losses when all he wanted to do was “beaver hunt.”

People are people and they always get distracted.

So you are saying professional athletes use their wealth and fame to score high quality pussy?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No wai!!!

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