The NBA's GOAT -- MJ? Lebron? The Field?

[d2o 1602]

Not exactly sure why so many of you in TX hate him but I'm not here for the bad mouthing of the great Isiah Lord Thomas III

Edited January 3, 2019 by d2o

[NowThis 931]

my all time starting 5.  Each player must be adept at passing, most important item. 

Jordan, Lebron, Bird, Kareem, Tim Duncan. 

[Goo Punch 4275]

all time starting five: 

Magic

MJ

Bron

Duncan

Hakeem

in discussion for GOAT-

Magic

MJ

Kareem

LeBron

Russell 

[alincoln 2364]

Lot of posters here must have missed the 2011 Finals.

[NowThis 931]

btw, what is the All Star format this year?  Lebron vs. Curry isn't possible anymore so will it be KI vs. Bron?

[Goo Punch 4275]

oh yeah, i didn't even remember the whole breaking up the conferences thing. that'll make things a lot loren interesting.

 

also, i'm hoping that a couple of the young flyers in the league can revive the dunk contest this year as well. 

[UTDD 362]

On ‎1‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 7:09 PM, longhornmatt said:

I would take Lebron over Bird, but a prime Larry Bird was pretty amazing.  It’s not an indefensible take.

Jordan still scored around 30 a game on a good FG% and won titles every year in the late 90s when he was way past his athletic prime and the style of play was murderball.  I know it’s an unprovable hypothetical, but I’m convinced a 1991 Michael Jordan would average 40 a game in today’s league.  Yeah, athletes get bigger, stronger, faster in each new generation, but if James Harden can get anywhere on the court he wants and to the FT line at will, I’m pretty sure MJ could deal with the level of modern athleticism.

I don't consider it indefensible either, Bird was a spectacular player.  If you consider Bird a SF (he would more likely be a PF today) I would easily have him at # 2 behind LeBron.  I have Durant at # 3 all-time at that position, and he's a superior scorer to both Bird and LeBron, but Bird's passing (very elite like LeBron) and rebounding were fantastic too and Bird was no slouch at scoring obviously.  I wonder how Bird would fare (at least offensively) in today's game.

[UTDD 362]

4 hours ago, NowThis said:

my all time starting 5.  Each player must be adept at passing, most important item. 

Jordan, Lebron, Bird, Kareem, Tim Duncan. 

That's a pretty good team.  I'd tweak slightly for today's game:

PG - Magic Johnson

SG - MJ

SF - LeBron James

PF - Bird (really tough to not include Duncan)

C - Kareem (very very tough to not seriously consider Hakeem)

[immortal13 4059]

Lebron loses points in the GOAT debate for being a bitch and never participating in the dunk contest

[Mileslong 4714]

 

Wilt Chamberlain is my vote for the best ever. He is the best athlete to ever play the game. He excelled at many sports. The fact you guys aren’t even including him in your list of top ten is so laughable it’s unreal.

 

Chamberlain is the only player to score 100 points in a single NBA game,

 

Only player to average more than 40 and 50 points in a season.

 

He won seven scoring, eleven rebounding, nine field goal percentage titles and led the league in assists once.

 

Chamberlain is the only player in NBA history to average at least 30 points and 20 rebounds per game in a season, which he accomplished seven times.

 

He is also the only player to average at least 30 points and 20 rebounds per game over the entire course of his NBA career.

 

Chamberlain had a successful won two NBA championships, four regular-season Most Valuable Player awards, the Rookie of the Year award, one NBA Finals MVP award, and was selected to 13 All-Star Games and ten All-NBA First and Second teams.

 

He was so dominant that he forced the NBA to change rules because of him. They had to widen the lane because with his reach he could post up anyone and just finger roll into the basket from outside the lane! Teams started just packing in the lane to stop him so they widened it.

 

He forced the NBA to adopt goal tending because he blocked so many shots it became unfair.

 

He forced the NBA to make a new rule that you couldn’t leap from the free throw line because he started jumping from the line and finger rolling in free throws.

 

He forced the NBA to quit letting you jump up when taking the ball out of bounds. He could jump so high no one could stop him from leaping up and passing uninstructed.

 

IHe could pick a silver dollar off the top of the backboard. In his first varsity game at Kansas he scored 52 points and grabbed 31 rebounds.

 

He ran the 100-yard dash in 10.9 seconds, shot-putted 56 feet, triple jumped more than 50 feet, and won the high jump in the Big Eight track and field championships three straight years.

 

[52-80 19085]

He sounds a lot like Bill Brasky

[d2o 1602]

5 hours ago, NowThis said:

btw, what is the All Star format this year?  Lebron vs. Curry isn't possible anymore so will it be KI vs. Bron?

its the top vote getter in each conference

so either LBJ/Curry vs Freak

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Mileslong said:

 

Wilt Chamberlain is my vote for the best ever. He is the best athlete to ever play the game. He excelled at many sports. The fact you guys aren’t even including him in your list of top ten is so laughable it’s unreal.

 

Chamberlain is the only player to score 100 points in a single NBA game,

 

Only player to average more than 40 and 50 points in a season.

 

He won seven scoring, eleven rebounding, nine field goal percentage titles and led the league in assists once.

 

Chamberlain is the only player in NBA history to average at least 30 points and 20 rebounds per game in a season, which he accomplished seven times.

 

He is also the only player to average at least 30 points and 20 rebounds per game over the entire course of his NBA career.

 

Chamberlain had a successful won two NBA championships, four regular-season Most Valuable Player awards, the Rookie of the Year award, one NBA Finals MVP award, and was selected to 13 All-Star Games and ten All-NBA First and Second teams.

 

He was so dominant that he forced the NBA to change rules because of him. They had to widen the lane because with his reach he could post up anyone and just finger roll into the basket from outside the lane! Teams started just packing in the lane to stop him so they widened it.

 

He forced the NBA to adopt goal tending because he blocked so many shots it became unfair.

 

He forced the NBA to make a new rule that you couldn’t leap from the free throw line because he started jumping from the line and finger rolling in free throws.

 

He forced the NBA to quit letting you jump up when taking the ball out of bounds. He could jump so high no one could stop him from leaping up and passing uninstructed.

 

IHe could pick a silver dollar off the top of the backboard. In his first varsity game at Kansas he scored 52 points and grabbed 31 rebounds.

 

He ran the 100-yard dash in 10.9 seconds, shot-putted 56 feet, triple jumped more than 50 feet, and won the high jump in the Big Eight track and field championships three straight years.

 

The thing that makes Jordan better in my book versus Chaimberlain and LeBron is the competition that he played against while being so dominant.

Want to compare the other greats of the eras?  Both other players will run out of bullets way the fuck before Jordan.

Edited January 4, 2019 by slorch

[VolenteHawk 495]

1 hour ago, slorch said:

The thing that makes Jordan better in my book versus Chaimberlain and LeBron is the competition that he played against while being so dominant.

Want to compare the other greats of the eras?  Both other players will run out of bullets way the fuck before Jordan.

Maybe but history is going to look back fondly on LeBron dominating a finals against a team that had Westbrook,  Durant, and Harden on it.

Im a Kansas guy, so I’m supposed to drive the Wilt train...but I just can’t do it. His counting stats are a perfect storm of insane pace of the era, nobody being able to shoot, and most teams having to guard him with a guy that would be selling insurance in even the 80s NBA. It’s not even clear he was better than Russell, and nobody but trolling haters would “yeah but” Jordan or LeBron with another player from their era. Wilt can simultaneously be an athletic freak that caused rule changes and not quite be the best player of all time.

[52-80 19085]

9 minutes ago, VolenteHawk said:

Maybe but history is going to look back fondly on LeBron dominating a finals against a team that had Westbrook,  Durant, and Harden on it.

The 2011 MIA 3-some were in their prime, having started the league in 2003

OKC only had KD going into his peak, as it was the 4th season for Westbrook, and only the 3rd for Harden, who was still coming off the bench that year

[VolenteHawk 495]

4 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

The 2011 MIA 3-some were in their prime, having started the league in 2003

OKC only had KD going into his peak, as it was the 4th season for Westbrook, and only the 3rd for Harden, who was still coming off the bench that year

I don’t know that that matters so much in say 20 years when we’re comparing skins on the wall, that’s the point I was referring to. History isn’t written on LeBron’s “bullets” in that debate, because most are still playing.

 

[Eskimohorn 5613]

Maybe but history is going to look back fondly on LeBron dominating a finals against a team that had Westbrook,  Durant, and Harden on it.
Im a Kansas guy, so I’m supposed to drive the Wilt train...but I just can’t do it. His counting stats are a perfect storm of insane pace of the era, nobody being able to shoot, and most teams having to guard him with a guy that would be selling insurance in even the 80s NBA. It’s not even clear he was better than Russell, and nobody but trolling haters would “yeah but” Jordan or LeBron with another player from their era. Wilt can simultaneously be an athletic freak that caused rule changes and not quite be the best player of all time.

Wilt’s performances in the playoffs were pedestrian. And he couldnt shoot free throws. Both him and Shaq were detrimental to their teams down the stretch.

[d2o 1602]

6 hours ago, VolenteHawk said:

I don’t know that that matters so much in say 20 years when we’re comparing skins on the wall, that’s the point I was referring to. History isn’t written on LeBron’s “bullets” in that debate, because most are still playing.

 

Has another team ever had 3 MVPs?   That will be an interesting nugget as time goes on.

[aggie08 21430]

7 hours ago, Eskimohorn said:

 

Wilt’s performances in the playoffs were pedestrian. And he couldnt shoot free throws. Both him and Shaq were detrimental to their teams down the stretch.

 

Yeah, I know all the excuses: "It's a team game"; "He didn't get to the Lakers until he was past his physical prime"; "The Celtics of that era were as close to unbeatable as it comes."

I get all that.....but the best player in NBA history HAS to have more than two titles to his name. Especially as a literal giant among completely outmatched "little" (like 6'8") men. His only peer (Russell) got the best of him time and time again, and is maybe the greatest leader and team player the sport has ever known.

The questions about Wilt's drive and motivations are valid (and legendary).

[aggie08 21430]

20 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

I get all that.....but the best player in NBA history HAS to have more than two titles to his name.

I also realize that I'm being a giant hypocrite here because I'm the first to point out how much luck (namely where you're drafted or where you end up) plays a part in legacy and greatness. And players like Wilt didn't have nearly the freedom that they do today.

Dominique probably has an entirely different legacy if he and Larry Bird switched places for the bulk of their careers. MJ isn't MJ if he's drafted by the Bullets instead of the Bulls. LeBron likely doesn't have a single ring had he never left Cleveland, and no one would have him in the GOAT conversation, stats be damned.

So it's reasonable to wonder, had Wilt found his way onto the Celtics instead of Russell during that era, would he have the ridiculous stats AND almost two handfuls of rings. 

I just personally think that there's more to team success than the overall collection of talent, and Russell still would have gotten the better of him in other circumstances.

Edited January 4, 2019 by aggie08

[immortal13 4059]

Lebron said he is the greatest player of all time so it must surely be true

[UTDD 362]

On ‎1‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 8:11 AM, 52-80 said:

The 2011 MIA 3-some were in their prime, having started the league in 2003

OKC only had KD going into his peak, as it was the 4th season for Westbrook, and only the 3rd for Harden, who was still coming off the bench that year

Totally agree logically but in 20 years casual fans will not even consider this much at all but more observant NBA people (by far a much much smaller minority) will understand this fact.  

[UTDD 362]

On ‎1‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 7:58 AM, VolenteHawk said:

Maybe but history is going to look back fondly on LeBron dominating a finals against a team that had Westbrook,  Durant, and Harden on it.

Im a Kansas guy, so I’m supposed to drive the Wilt train...but I just can’t do it. His counting stats are a perfect storm of insane pace of the era, nobody being able to shoot, and most teams having to guard him with a guy that would be selling insurance in even the 80s NBA. It’s not even clear he was better than Russell, and nobody but trolling haters would “yeah but” Jordan or LeBron with another player from their era. Wilt can simultaneously be an athletic freak that caused rule changes and not quite be the best player of all time.

I'm with you here a lot even though I think Wilt is easily a Top 10 player of all-time, but probably not in my Top 3-4.  I think it is very difficult to compare eras so easily, but one thing you can try and do is compare amongst peers, and I have hard time having him so easily over Russell as it's very debatable to me either way depending on what one believes is most important in defining greatness and/or "better" in one's eyes.  I have no problem saying that in my opinion MJ is the best of his era and LeBron of this era, but much harder with me for Wilt/Russell.

[UTDD 362]

For basketball nerds only, but one person's take on some GOAT discussion.  I don't agree with some of the conclusions and how it was put together, but it was still a lot of work and much more well though out than I expected when I first starting reading it.  I agreed with his first three though I have them in a different order, and I really agree with how high he placed Hakeem and Duncan, who are usually lower on most GOAT lists as I personally think they are slightly underrated for GOAT.

http://www.backpicks.com/tag/all-time-basketball-players/

[sheeeit 129]

Jordan is best ever, imo.  2 deep starting all great team:

 

Magic, Curry

MJ, Kobe

Lebron, Bird, KD

Duncan, Barkley

Kareem, Hakeem, Wilt

[NowThis 931]

On 1/26/2019 at 1:43 PM, UTDD said:

For basketball nerds only, but one person's take on some GOAT discussion.  I don't agree with some of the conclusions and how it was put together, but it was still a lot of work and much more well though out than I expected when I first starting reading it.  I agreed with his first three though I have them in a different order, and I really agree with how high he placed Hakeem and Duncan, who are usually lower on most GOAT lists as I personally think they are slightly underrated for GOAT.

http://www.backpicks.com/tag/all-time-basketball-players/

longevity has it's place -- MLK

but Dirk over Bird? I guess playing forever is a measure, but can't agree with THAT. 

[Vic Mackey 46934]

Yeah as much as I love Dirk, he's not better than Bird.

[aggie08 21430]

1 hour ago, sheeeit said:

Jordan is best ever, imo.  2 deep starting all great team:

 

Magic, Curry

MJ, Kobe

Lebron, Bird, KD

Duncan, Barkley

Kareem, Hakeem, Wilt

Not bad.  Maybe I'd consider swapping Russell for Wilt, but that's about it.

This is why I always laugh when Kobe fans get all bent out of shape when someone says that he's not in the Top 10.  The NBA's Top 9 is insane...almost impenetrable.  In some order:

MJ

LeBron

Magic

Bird

Kareem

Duncan

Hakeem

Russell

Wilt

 

That tenth spot can only be one of KD, The Logo, Shaq, Kobe, Oscar, a couple of other guys that I'm probably spacing on.  There's no shame at all in being #13, or whatever.

I agree with you that Steph is now the 2nd best point guard in NBA history (he's past Isiah, and I tend to think Oscar is a bit overrated), and he'll be lucky to crack the top 20.

[d2o 1602]

1 hour ago, aggie08 said:

Not bad.  Maybe I'd consider swapping Russell for Wilt, but that's about it.

This is why I always laugh when Kobe fans get all bent out of shape when someone says that he's not in the Top 10.  The NBA's Top 9 is insane...almost impenetrable.  In some order:

MJ

LeBron

Magic

Bird

Kareem

Duncan

Hakeem

Russell

Wilt

 

That tenth spot can only be one of KD, The Logo, Shaq, Kobe, Oscar, a couple of other guys that I'm probably spacing on.  There's no shame at all in being #13, or whatever.

I agree with you that Steph is now the 2nd best point guard in NBA history (he's past Isiah, and I tend to think Oscar is a bit overrated), and he'll be lucky to crack the top 20.

I'd prolly put KG over Barkley.

[UTDD 362]

6 hours ago, NowThis said:

longevity has it's place -- MLK

but Dirk over Bird? I guess playing forever is a measure, but can't agree with THAT. 

I'm a Mavs homer to the end but I agree with you too.

[UTDD 362]

5 hours ago, aggie08 said:

Not bad.  Maybe I'd consider swapping Russell for Wilt, but that's about it.

This is why I always laugh when Kobe fans get all bent out of shape when someone says that he's not in the Top 10.  The NBA's Top 9 is insane...almost impenetrable.  In some order:

MJ

LeBron

Magic

Bird

Kareem

Duncan

Hakeem

Russell

Wilt

 

That tenth spot can only be one of KD, The Logo, Shaq, Kobe, Oscar, a couple of other guys that I'm probably spacing on.  There's no shame at all in being #13, or whatever.

I agree with you that Steph is now the 2nd best point guard in NBA history (he's past Isiah, and I tend to think Oscar is a bit overrated), and he'll be lucky to crack the top 20.

That list is definitely my top 9 as well in a different order here and there, and I'd have Shaq tenth.  I think KD will end up kind of close but not in the Top ten (11-15) and I think Curry could crack the Top 15 or so.  My Mount Rushmore four would be MJ, LeBron, Kareem, and Russell.

[Horn80 6075]

Bill Russell

[CBT 1281]

Of course Bird is over Dirk. But putting KG or Barkley over Dirk is insane. 

[Reynolds Woodcock 4668]

17 hours ago, aggie08 said:

Not bad.  Maybe I'd consider swapping Russell for Wilt, but that's about it.

This is why I always laugh when Kobe fans get all bent out of shape when someone says that he's not in the Top 10.  The NBA's Top 9 is insane...almost impenetrable.  In some order:

MJ

LeBron

Magic

Bird

Kareem

Duncan

Hakeem

Russell

Wilt

 

That tenth spot can only be one of KD, The Logo, Shaq, Kobe, Oscar, a couple of other guys that I'm probably spacing on.  There's no shame at all in being #13, or whatever.

I agree with you that Steph is now the 2nd best point guard in NBA history (he's past Isiah, and I tend to think Oscar is a bit overrated), and he'll be lucky to crack the top 20.

I love the topic. I think the top 8 is unassailable. In some order: MJ, LBJ, Kareem, Russel, Magic, Wilt, Duncan and Bird. 9-12 is really, really tough to me.  Take your pick between Hakeem, Logo, Shaq, Kobe, Oscar, and KD. I think either Dirk and Moses Malone are right behind those guys at 15/16. 

[sheeeit 129]

2 hours ago, Reynolds Woodcock said:

I love the topic. I think the top 8 is unassailable. In some order: MJ, LBJ, Kareem, Russel, Magic, Wilt, Duncan and Bird. 9-12 is really, really tough to me.  Take your pick between Hakeem, Logo, Shaq, Kobe, Oscar, and KD. I think either Dirk and Moses Malone are right behind those guys at 15/16. 

Love the topic also.  My only question is on Russel.  I feel like every other guy on the list would dominate in any era.  They could all score.  I do not think Russel would be great in the modern era.  He was just too limited offensively and he was not nearly as athletic as the rest of the list.  Every other guy on that list you could feed the ball to late and they would deliver.  Not Russel.  Certainly one of the very best in his era, but not in my top 20 all time.  I also think KD will get into the conversation of top 10.

[d2o 1602]

1 hour ago, sheeeit said:

Love the topic also.  My only question is on Russel.  I feel like every other guy on the list would dominate in any era.  They could all score.  I do not think Russel would be great in the modern era.  He was just too limited offensively and he was not nearly as athletic as the rest of the list.  Every other guy on that list you could feed the ball to late and they would deliver.  Not Russel.  Certainly one of the very best in his era, but not in my top 20 all time.  I also think KD will get into the conversation of top 10.

Whoa!  Full stop.

 

 

 

 

[sheeeit 129]

17 minutes ago, d2o said:

Whoa!  Full stop.

 

 

 

 

LOL  Yes bad term by me.  Athletic is not what I meant.  Not sure the right word.  Skilled?  Basically he was just a very poor shooter.   Not a guy a team could lean on down the stretch offensively.  All the other guys on the list were great defenders as well as the first option on offense and all had the ability to score consistently in the 4th quarter.  In an era that had massive scoring (like 118/game and almost 150 possessions per game versus 100 or so now) Russell only averaged about 12 pts per game after they widened the lane.  He literally only made 3-4 shots a game that were not dunks or free throws.  The other guys on the list averaged that many in the 4th quarter alone.  

 

Bottom line, if you could take any player on the list in their absolute prime to start your team with in todays era, very very few would pick Russell.

[Murfdogg21 4412]

MJ would probably be better playing against the competition and more importantly the rules/foul calls today than in his era. LBJ might (probably would) have performed worse in 80s era. MJ wins. 

 

Drafting a mythical all time team and getting LBJ at #2 is nothing to be sad about for fanboy GM. 

[aggie08 21430]

On 2/5/2019 at 12:46 PM, sheeeit said:

LOL  Yes bad term by me.  Athletic is not what I meant.  Not sure the right word.  Skilled?  Basically he was just a very poor shooter.   Not a guy a team could lean on down the stretch offensively.  All the other guys on the list were great defenders as well as the first option on offense and all had the ability to score consistently in the 4th quarter.  In an era that had massive scoring (like 118/game and almost 150 possessions per game versus 100 or so now) Russell only averaged about 12 pts per game after they widened the lane.  He literally only made 3-4 shots a game that were not dunks or free throws.  The other guys on the list averaged that many in the 4th quarter alone.  

 

Bottom line, if you could take any player on the list in their absolute prime to start your team with in todays era, very very few would pick Russell.

Yeah, that would be the only argument against Russell: every other player in the Top 10ish players is an offensive force, and, let's face it, offense is just more important than defense.

But, at some point, you have to factor is intangibles, leadership, drive, etc.  From all the stories, Bill's teammates would have laid down in traffic if he asked them to.

[d2o 1602]

57 minutes ago, Murfdogg21 said:

MJ would probably be better playing against the competition and more importantly the rules/foul calls today than in his era. LBJ might (probably would) have performed worse in 80s era. MJ wins. 

 

Drafting a mythical all time team and getting LBJ at #2 is nothing to be sad about for fanboy GM. 

Why do you think this?

[NowThis 931]

John M'Fn Stockton totally dominating Michael Jordan.  Stockton is GOAT 

 

[Beau Vine 53998]

 

[Beau Vine 53998]

Gary Payton still has pieces of John Stockton in his poops.

[NowThis 931]

1 hour ago, Beau Vine said:

Gary Payton still has pieces of John Stockton in his poops.

Stockton > Payton.   Stockton is the nba all time leader in steals, while GP was overrated as the Glove.  That little white guy, despite a league of quick long freaks, by far has the most steals.  Amazing. 

[Beau Vine 53998]

There is literally no more overrated way to measure defense than to look at steals.

In fact, the two most overrated stats in basketball are steals and assists, which is pretty much all Stockton. 

[Hate 20103]

 

Best thing was that he told his teammates he was going to do it before the game. It’s funny, I hated Bird and those Celtics when I was growing up, but I’ve come to really like them the more I’ve watched and read about them. I even like Kevin McHale although I had started to soften on him after his appearances on Cheers.

[NowThis 931]

37 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

There is literally no more overrated way to measure defense than to look at steals.

In fact, the two most overrated stats in basketball are steals and assists, which is pretty much all Stockton. 

anyone can say that about any stat.  Steals do prevent a bucket though. 

[Beau Vine 53998]

The all-time NBA leader in steals made All-Defensive 1st team *ZERO* times in his career.  Payton -- 9 times

 

[aggie08 21430]

1 hour ago, NowThis said:

anyone can say that about any stat.  Steals do prevent a bucket though. 

Allen Iverson routinely led the league in steals, and Steph Curry led the league in one of his MVP years.

AI was a horrendous defender, and people roll their eyes every time that I try to defend Steph as even an average defender. Steals primarily show basketball IQ and a willingness to gamble; both are nice skills to have, but not always indicative of a lockdown defender.

That's not to say that Stockton isn't great and tough as nails, but players feared his dirty little tricks more than his actual defensive acumen. 

[NowThis 931]

43 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Allen Iverson routinely led the league in steals, and Steph Curry led the league in one of his MVP years.

AI was a horrendous defender, and people roll their eyes every time that I try to defend Steph as even an average defender. Steals primarily show basketball IQ and a willingness to gamble; both are nice skills to have, but not always indicative of a lockdown defender.

That's not to say that Stockton isn't great and tough as nails, but players feared his dirty little tricks more than his actual defensive acumen. 

steals don't mean a person is a bad defender, it's always a positive. To compare Stockton to bad defenders isn't a good analogy. With him, a steal was almost always a 4 point swing given that he had an open court most of the time, back when big guys were not fast.  Dude was fundamentally pure, not fast, not quick, can't jump, played forever, able to keep his team with Jordan with almost no talent except Malone. He's truly incredible.