Oven/range - what do I want

[Baboontyme 2810]

We are redoing the kitchen. I have no idea what I want. Gas I presume. I was hoping for a hood or some kind of ventilation as we will be putting it on an exterior wall. Overhead hood? Down draft? What about the oven, should I be looking at convection/air fryer type stuff?

We are going for a solid medium upper vibe, nothing too crazy. I cook but nothing crazy. I don't carry my passion for cooking and experimenting with BBQ indoors. Occasionally I like to cook on the cast iron indoors. I bake some pies occasionally but honestly most of what else I use the oven for is too keep BBQ warm or to warm up pizza for the kids if it won't fit in the air fryer. I like to cook pizza but prob going to get an Ooni type oven at some point. 

I am trying to design the wall layout so hooded vent or no vent is important at this stage so I can figure out if we want cabinets above or if that isn't going to be possible. 

Any advice from you surly assholes? Thanks in advance. 

[Not that Bob 736]

I was disappointed in Viking. Never worked 100% properly, which I expected for that price point. Going with Wolf now. Too early to tell. Gas cook top and electric oven is what all the salesmen and designers say, hell if I know why. My experience is that top vent works better. Downdraft tends to pull the heat away from the burner plus cooking odors/smoke come from the top of the pot, not the bottom. Get as much draft as you can. I suggest the Suck Master 5000. Seriously Vent-a-Hood with dual fans is good. 

[Brew 3049]

We have a gas cooktop with a down draft and then electric wall ovens. We are going to a single unit Wolf gas cooktop with a griddle and electric ovens with an overhead vent also. I don’t like the downdraft for the reasons mentioned above plus it is loud compared to overhead. We looked at the gas and electric oven options and decided to go electric for what we use. Prepare to spend a small fortune. Our appliances in our remodel are more than I ever expected to pay.

[CooterBrown 18007]

Gas cook top and electric oven is what all the salesmen and designers say, hell if I know why.

Electric ovens have much more even heating than gas. If you’re baking a lot, it’s way superior to gas.

[royiv 9302]

I'll jump in to agree with everyone else that has said dual fuel and overhead vent. Go as big as you can afford. Don't get some dinky 30" range. It makes your kitchen look like an apartment. I've now owned two houses with Thermador appliances and have had zero complaints.

[Baboontyme 2810]

Thanks for the input. I like the idea of going with 36 as opposed to 30. I will take a look at some of these brands. 

[HouTex 1867]

My last three homes had Viking, Thermador, and now Miele gas range or cook tops.  The Viking range top was superior to the Thermador range top.  The Miele cooktop looks puny compared to the larger range tops but it kicks ass.  The Germans make some good stuff.  We have a Miele double oven/microwave and we love it.  

[horn4life 3760]

Unfortunately for my lowly 1978 built ranch a 36 nch too too much space.  So I went with a double oven lowly 30 range 😉

So this advice is more if you stay with the 30 inch footprint. You want a double oven range.  Simply as you will be able to use the smaller much more efficient oven for most of your cooking.  But you will praise the Lord when you host a meal like Thanksgiving or just a big party.  Of course my wife wanted duel fuel, so I had to run both Gas line and 220 to the new location of range.   I went back and forth on a hood versus a microwave hood, but went for a higher end convection microwave hood instead of just a vent because of economy of space.  We rarely use the convection feature but that gives us the potential of 3 ovens when we entertain.  And it has come up more than once to use all three.

But mainly the double oven range.  I will say that I bitched about the electric oven.  But it is supposed to hold the temp more accurately for baking, but some of the feature like the "Sabbath Mode" allows you to put something in the oven and have it start and stop while you are gone, or start in middle of night.  

When you are shopping double oven ranges pay attention to the cubic feet.  As you want as large an oven as possible.  I would also make sure it has convection, simply as it's great for breads and meats.  Gas cooktop is the shit, but if you wanted to go electric the new induction cook tops respond like gas.  Good luck but if you don't go with a double oven you will regret it.

GE double oven best buy

 

Edited August 5, 2022 by horn4life

[Not that Bob 736]

Addendum: My Viking had a griddle. Used it exactly one time. It stunk up the house and was a bitch to clean. Get an outdoors griddle. 

[dcbc 14480]

I was fairly set against spending extra for convection when we had to replace our in-wall oven/microwave combo last year.  But thanks to supply chain issues, we were in a take what you can get situation and opted for a convection oven/microwave-speed oven combo.  It has more features than I have been able to use yet, but baked potatoes on the convection setting may be worth the upcharge in the long run.

[HouTex 1867]

1 hour ago, Not that Bob said:

Addendum: My Viking had a griddle. Used it exactly one time. It stunk up the house and was a bitch to clean. Get an outdoors griddle. 

I liked my Viking griddle and used it all the time.  It developed a nice patina.  

[Brew 3049]

13 hours ago, CooterBrown said:

 

Electric ovens have much more even heating than gas. If you’re baking a lot, it’s way superior to gas.

 

Everything I read when researching said gas was superior for baking because of the moisture level in a gas oven. It all depends on what you’re cooking I’m sure but temp control on the higher end units is supposedly better than electric. I don’t like the taste on my gas grill, so I went electric even though I’m sure the oven burns cleaner.

We went with a 48 inch range. I would also look at a stand alone cooktop and dual wall ovens if you’re getting down in the smaller range sizes. I prefer that setup which we currently have, but it wasn’t worth the discussion once it was agreed we could go to a 48 inch setup.

On the griddle, I wanted the indoor one for pancakes, eggs, other simple things. Plus, I didn’t want the grill insert or the extra burners above 5-6, so griddle it was. Extra burners would be more important if space was an issue.

 

[Pato del Muerto 52492]

Without getting into brands- I’d say gas stove top and electric double convection oven if they are separate. If one unit, gas range and electric convection oven. 
 

the primary benefit to gas range is the heat is immediately on and immediately off. No heat up and cool down times.  Heat up usually isn’t a big deal but it’s nice, but the big thing is when you turn off the burner the heat goes away other than a little residual heat from the grates. But the cooking stops without having to move the pot/pan. 
 

the oven- electric is usually a more even heat and easier for the thermal controller to work with, to maintain a more level temperature.  Convection is basically just a fan to circulate the air so the heat is always evenly distributed.  Helps cook things 10-20% quicker.  Double oven if you can because it’s easier when cooking two things at one time that need different temps. 
 

I like the look of a big stainless hood over the range but that’s just me. 

Edited August 5, 2022 by Pato del Muerto

[dcbc 14480]

4 hours ago, Brew said:

Everything I read when researching said gas was superior for baking because of the moisture level in a gas oven

Our new convection oven has a steam function.  So there's that.  As far as heating, it's been very even, and the warm setting at 145 F has been a dramatic improvement over our old oven.  Easier when the element is under the oven floor.

[Not that Bob 736]

4 hours ago, HouTex said:

I liked my Viking griddle and used it all the time.  It developed a nice patina.  

When it comes to odors in the house I am, admittedly, persnickety.

I had dreams of my son bringing home his college friends and me cooking burgers on the griddle. Nope. 

[dcbc 14480]

4 hours ago, Pato del Muerto said:

the primary benefit to gas range is the heat is immediately on and immediately off. No heat up and cool down times.  Heat up usually isn’t a big deal but it’s nice, but the big thing is when you turn off the burner the heat goes away other than a little residual heat from the grates. But the cooking stops without having to move the pot/pan. 

If there already is a gas line there or if it's easy/reasonably expensive to run one, I'd probably go that route.  In our case, running gas to the cooktop was an additional $4K (and this wasn't a total kitchen remodel where we really wanted to tear things up.  Induction will do everything you describe above.  Gas still has the advantage of being able to bang the pots and pans around on the cast iron grates and you can get good char on roasting a pepper, but otherwise, induction is extremely efficient and has the control advantages of gas.  You have to be careful with the glasstop (we put sil-pats under our cookware), but it's also really easy to clean.

Edited August 5, 2022 by dcbc

[Pato del Muerto 52492]

12 minutes ago, dcbc said:

If there already is a gas line there or if it's easy/reasonably expensive to run one, I'd probably go that route.  In our case, running gas to the cooktop was an additional $4K (and this wasn't a total kitchen remodel where we really wanted to tear things up.  Induction will do everything you describe above.  Gas still has the advantage of being able to bang the pots and pans around on the cast iron grates and you can get good char on roasting a pepper, but otherwise, induction is extremely efficient and has the control advantages of gas.  You have to be careful with the glasstop (we put sil-pats under our cookware), but it's also really easy to clean.

is induction the one that you can/can’t use certain pots and pans if they’re not ferrous?

I have a flat cooktop now (no gas to the house) but it behaves like a regular electric element. 

[TwiceHorn 31457]

We've had GE Monogram, electric oven, micro/convection, and gas range.

I don't think it's very functionally different from their Profile line, but looks a little more beefy and commercial (and I guess is).

Very pleased.  Would/will buy again.

One thing we did was opt for a black glass surround on the range, thinking it might be easier to keep than stainless.  I don't think it is, really.  But it looks cool.

[dcbc 14480]

11 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

is induction the one that you can/can’t use certain pots and pans if they’re not ferrous?

I have a flat cooktop now (no gas to the house) but it behaves like a regular electric element. 

Yeah.  Induction HOBs are magnetic.  So they heat the pan directly, as opposed to a radiant element on a glass cooktop, which heats underneath the glass.  You need to have magnetic pans.  We didn't, but we got some good tri-ply pans for a few hundred bucks and our cast iron and carbon steel stuff works fine.  The only thing I can't use is this old, 1960s, cast aluminum omelet pan.  You can buy magnetic discs to use as adapters, but I haven't bothered.  Control is instantaneous.  You can link two of them for a griddle, a smaller back burner has a melt setting for chocolate and the like, which works as advertised.  The big burner will get water boiling in a hurry.  There's a buzz that goes along with it, but you get used to it like the hiss of gas.  We have those spoon drawers under ours, which I open when doing long cooks.  There is a fan on there that keeps everything cool.  So I like to open those to ventilate better.  One other perk, it does not heat up the kitchen.

Edited August 5, 2022 by dcbc

[dcbc 14480]

1 minute ago, TwiceHorn said:

We've had GE Monogram, electric oven, micro/convection, and gas range.

I don't think it's very functionally different from their Profile line, but looks a little more beefy and commercial (and I guess is).

Very pleased.  Would/will buy again.

One thing we did was opt for a black glass surround on the range, thinking it might be easier to keep than stainless.  I don't think it is, really.  But it looks cool.

We bought ours when it was almost impossible to find things in stock last years.  I wanted the GE Profile stuff, but we ended up with LG.  I just hope it lasts (but I'm dubious).  Functionalitywise, it's fantastic.

[CooterBrown 18007]

Everything I read when researching said gas was superior for baking because of the moisture level in a gas oven.

You can just spray a dozen squirts from a spray bottle into the oven right when you put your bread in. You’re supposed to do that anyway for any bread you want to develop a crisp crust like a baguette. For soft breads, like hamburger buns, you don’t want that humidity in the oven.

[deadshank 24652]

Have Wolf dual-fuel NG range / electric oven.  Works as advertised. 

Pro tip: spend the money for a separate Wolf steam oven.  Throw your microwave it the trash.  You’ll thank me later. 

[Not that Bob 736]

Please expand on the steam oven comment. I have heard good things, but have no experience.

[deadshank 24652]

2 hours ago, Not that Bob said:

Please expand on the steam oven comment. I have heard good things, but have no experience.

They’re awesome.  Great (best) for baking bread type dishes,  re-heating with convection / steam feature can take week old pizza and leftover rice and turn it into brand new quality, blanching vegetables is a jiff, etc.  

Remarkable ovens. 

[52-80 19151]

I rarely use the oven but imagine you can put a bowl/tray of water in it and it works the same. Water boils at 212F so surely anything you cook will drive steam from the water. 
 

Stoves personally I think gas is king, but barring that induction is 2nd best.  With gas no fragility of induction surface to think about. You can scrub and clean the gas grates without fear of marring the large mirrored surface. 
 

At least compared to electric ceramic, the induction surface itself isn’t heated as high (magnetism conducts heat directly to the cooking vessel, instead of through)…so shit that runs off the vessel wont bake into the surface. 
 

Theres also a cool effect where you can place a thin layer of e.g. newspaper between the surface and the heating will still be effective. The paper catches splatters and such. 

[deadshank 24652]

15 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

I rarely use the oven but imagine you can put a bowl/tray of water in it and it works the same. Water boils at 212F so surely anything you cook will drive steam from the water. 
 

 

How cheap of a bastard are you?

[Da Fino 2781]

I've got a Miele steam oven in the wall. We use it all the time. Really great for reheating previously smoked then frozen brisket and ribs. Did that twice this weekend when we had guests over and the resulting food taste perfect. Our range is a 48" Miele with double ovens. One is a speed oven and microwave, the other is just a traditional oven that rarely gets used. The bottom has a warming tray that we actually use a lot. Got rid of our microwave and toaster oven, so the counters all look tidy. Would not change a thing. 

[52-80 19151]

22 minutes ago, deadshank said:

How cheap of a bastard are you?

Ill giveya a steamer for free

[horn4life 3760]

On 8/5/2022 at 6:01 PM, Not that Bob said:

When it comes to odors in the house I am, admittedly, persnickety.

I had dreams of my son bringing home his college friends and me cooking burgers on the griddle. Nope. 

The griddle smelled because it was the first time you used it.  Cook a bunch of sausage o

 

On 8/5/2022 at 6:06 PM, dcbc said:

If there already is a gas line there or if it's easy/reasonably expensive to run one, I'd probably go that route.  In our case, running gas to the cooktop was an additional $4K (and this wasn't a total kitchen remodel where we really wanted to tear things up.  Induction will do everything you describe above.  Gas still has the advantage of being able to bang the pots and pans around on the cast iron grates and you can get good char on roasting a pepper, but otherwise, induction is extremely efficient and has the control advantages of gas.  You have to be careful with the glasstop (we put sil-pats under our cookware), but it's also really easy to clean.

(we put sil-pats under our cookware).      ... good idea.

[Jkwellborn 6697]

I wanted a gas cooktop and an electric double wall oven with convection. I don’t use the second oven much and I wish I had gone with a 6 burner cook too. Don’t put the oven by the cooktop if you go in the wall.

[Tailgate 3021]

I love the griddle in the middle of my stove top. I don’t need six burners. I use it all the time.

All gas. No breakers.

Edited August 13, 2022 by Tailgate

[Okie State 3818]

In the middle of a renovation right now and we went with a Blue Star 36" gas range and 30" electric wall oven. Getting a 42" Vent-a-Hood insert over the range. Downdrafts suck in my experience. Time will tell on reliability, but really looking forward to this setup.

We have a Miele induction cooktop for sale if anyone wants it.

[Chewbacca 7777]

In the middle of a renovation right now and we went with a Blue Star 36" gas range and 30" electric wall oven. Getting a 42" Vent-a-Hood insert over the range. Downdrafts suck in my experience. Time will tell on reliability, but really looking forward to this setup.

We have a Miele induction cooktop for sale if anyone wants it.

What made you go gas and get rid of the induction?

[Okie State 3818]

What made you go gas and get rid of the induction?

We've always liked gas. Feel like you have better control over the heat plus no need to be careful banging around cast iron or other pans. The induction was there when we bought the house so it was the first time we've used one. It's fine. Far superior to regular electric tops, but still seems to cook weird. Maybe there's just an extended learning curve. It also makes a buzzing noise which is apparently normal? It boils water amazingly fast...almost impossibly fast. Also probably safer around kids. Overall it was nice, but just not for us. I think it's like a $4K unit.

[Chewbacca 7777]

We've always liked gas. Feel like you have better control over the heat plus no need to be careful banging around cast iron or other pans. The induction was there when we bought the house so it was the first time we've used one. It's fine. Far superior to regular electric tops, but still seems to cook weird. Maybe there's just an extended learning curve. It also makes a buzzing noise which is apparently normal? It boils water amazingly fast...almost impossibly fast. Also probably safer around kids. Overall it was nice, but just not for us. I think it's like a $4K unit.

Good to hear. We're working with an architect to remodel our mountain house and I've been kicking that one back and forth. I love gas, but the trend seems to be moving towards induction. We'll likely go gas, though.

[Okie State 3818]

Good to hear. We're working with an architect to remodel our mountain house and I've been kicking that one back and forth. I love gas, but the trend seems to be moving towards induction. We'll likely go gas, though.

Basically every appliance place pushed induction so I'm sure people do like them. We would have been fine with it, but there's just something about gas that isn't replaceable.

Maybe see if you can find one to cook on though and decide for yourself.

[Pato del Muerto 52492]

18 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

2 hours ago, Okie State said:

We've always liked gas. Feel like you have better control over the heat plus no need to be careful banging around cast iron or other pans. The induction was there when we bought the house so it was the first time we've used one. It's fine. Far superior to regular electric tops, but still seems to cook weird. Maybe there's just an extended learning curve. It also makes a buzzing noise which is apparently normal? It boils water amazingly fast...almost impossibly fast. Also probably safer around kids. Overall it was nice, but just not for us. I think it's like a $4K unit.

Good to hear. We're working with an architect to remodel our mountain house and I've been kicking that one back and forth. I love gas, but the trend seems to be moving towards induction. We'll likely go gas, though.

Does the mountain home have natural gas plumbed, or would it be a propane tank?  Ive never thought to compare natural gas delivered by the city to propane in a home kitchen. Should work just like a propane grill I guess. 

[Chewbacca 7777]

10 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Does the mountain home have natural gas plumbed, or would it be a propane tank?  Ive never thought to compare natural gas delivered by the city to propane in a home kitchen. Should work just like a propane grill I guess. 

We have gas in the street.  Not connected currently, but it's an easy thing to do.

[HouTex 1867]

9 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Does the mountain home have natural gas plumbed, or would it be a propane tank?  Ive never thought to compare natural gas delivered by the city to propane in a home kitchen. Should work just like a propane grill I guess. 

Propane burns hotter than natural gas--a good thing for cooking.  But maybe the design of the indoor range will compensate--not sure.  I can say that my Bull natural gas outdoor grill did not get nearly as hot as my propane grill.

[Okie State 3818]

The Blue Star model we bought comes in either NG or LP. I assume the difference is just the burner orifice. My understanding is that you can drill out the orifice on an LP grill to get the equivalent BTUs out of NG. I haven't actually tried it though.

Getting off topic I guess.

[TeeDubya 3362]

I have Jenn Air 6 burner gas cooktop, and dual GE Profile electric ovens.  Zero complaints.

 

[Texzilla58 4735]

I am a contrarian, having been in the appliance business forever and a bit of a cook. I have sold a ton of expensive Wolf and Viking ranges and similar thru the years, many of them to homeowners who basically want them for style and generally just lay a pizza box on them.

Appliances are tools. They are only useful as you use them; if you’re not a cook or hate to clean consider something simpler.

I am a huge fan of induction. Especially with kids as the surface doesn’t get hot. It’s fast. No open flame. For most families, even those that cook a lot, induction is the perfect surface. There is induction capable cookware out there even in the 10 piece $99 stuff so it’s no big deal.

I am not a fan of gas unless you have a need to install a wok burner that can get sun level of BTUs. I worked in restaurants breaking down ranges every night. I don’t want to do it at home. The cleaning is what really turns me away from it.

If your family is hectic, I believe glass top electric is practical, easy to clean, and simple. They cook fine for 90% of families.

For an oven I like electric convection. Not gas.

So in a perfect kitchen for me I want a six burner induction range top, a two burner high BTU gas cooktop that can also grill, dual 36” electric convection oven, a high power updraft smooth surface vent hood vented straight outside (cooktops on islands are impractical) a over range microwave mounted eyelevel but not over the cook tops, a huge 48” pro reefer, an under cabinet ice maker. Two dishwashers.

[hornbri 1398]

3 hours ago, Chewbacca said:

6 hours ago, Okie State said:

We've always liked gas. Feel like you have better control over the heat plus no need to be careful banging around cast iron or other pans. The induction was there when we bought the house so it was the first time we've used one. It's fine. Far superior to regular electric tops, but still seems to cook weird. Maybe there's just an extended learning curve. It also makes a buzzing noise which is apparently normal? It boils water amazingly fast...almost impossibly fast. Also probably safer around kids. Overall it was nice, but just not for us. I think it's like a $4K unit.

Good to hear. We're working with an architect to remodel our mountain house and I've been kicking that one back and forth. I love gas, but the trend seems to be moving towards induction. We'll likely go gas, though.

We are redoing the kitchen in our home and have settled on a gas range with a griddle (we have propane currently). We looked hard at induction but in the end I love to cook on the gas product more.  

[Chewbacca 7777]

What brands do people like out there?  We've got a gas Wolf range at home and really like it.  Not sure it's worth the premium we paid for it, though.  We cook every day, so it will get heavy use.  Looking for either a double oven range (preferred) or a single oven range with a separate wall oven.  Definitely want 2 ovens, though.  I would prefer something like this.  Doesn't necessarily have to be Wolf, but I want that level of quality.  Probably want dual fuel to get electric ovens, I think.  Want convection on both.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Chewbacca

[hornbri 1398]

32 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

What brands do people like out there?  We've got a gas Wolf range at home and really like it.  Not sure it's worth the premium we paid for it, though.  We cook every day, so it will get heavy use.  Looking for either a double oven range (preferred) or a single oven range with a separate wall oven.  Definitely want 2 ovens, though.  I would prefer something like this.  Doesn't necessarily have to be Wolf, but I want that level of quality.  Probably want dual fuel to get electric ovens, I think.  Want convection on both.

We currently have a Wolf, but are going with a Thermador for this remodel. I think those two are about on the same level. We ordered a version that has both a large convention oven and a smaller steam oven. 

The Wolf has worked great and no issues.

[Chewbacca 7777]

Just now, hornbri said:

We currently have a Wolf, but are going with a Thermador for this remodel. I think those two are about on the same level. We ordered a version that has both a large convention oven and a smaller steam oven. 

The Wolf has worked great and no issues.

WHy did you go with Thermador?  What did it offer that swayed the decision?

[TwiceHorn 31457]

Our builder told us 10 years ago that Thermador was not what it used to be, since being bought out by Bosch.

My Mom had Thermador cooktop and ovens and loved them.  But this was 30+ years ago, and they lasted that long.

Our builder actually recommended GE Monogram as being pretty high-value, functional, restaurant-style stuff comparable to Wolf or Viking.  We've been quite pleased with all of it.

One really cool thing that I haven't seen anywhere else:  our ovens have racks on rollers.  You can roll the rack out with a bigass dutch oven or turkey or something else large/heavy and just easily pick it right up without having to reach in and slide.

Jenn-Air and Kitchen Aid are Whirlpool brands.  When we built our house, we kind of thought they'd just become a "label" and lose some of their "cachet" and maybe weren't what they used to be, like Thermador (I don't think Kitchen Aid really has any cachet outside dishwashers and stand mixers, but has become a prestige brand for everything).  It appears, though, that Jenn-Air has remained pretty autonomous among Whirlpool divisions and continues to make pretty good stuff.

Edited August 17, 2022 by TwiceHorn

[hornbri 1398]

10 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

WHy did you go with Thermador?  What did it offer that swayed the decision?

A few things.

The Thermador had the largest oven in the range/stove top combos we saw at 5.7 cu. ft. Rather then 2 ovens of the same size we wanted one really large oven and then the smaller steam oven. 

BTUs - the wolf 6 burners were 1 - 9k, 2- 15k, 2 -18k and 1 - 20k. The Thermador is 2 - 12.5k. 1 - 15k, 2 - 18k, 1 - 22k. More BTUs = more Power 

 

[Chewbacca 7777]

17 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Our builder told us 10 years ago that Thermador was not what it used to be, since being bought out by Bosch.

My Mom had Thermador cooktop and ovens and loved them.  But this was 30+ years ago, and they lasted that long.

Our builder actually recommended GE Monogram as being pretty high-value, functional, restaurant-style stuff comparable to Wolf or Viking.  We've been quite pleased with all of it.

One really cool thing that I haven't seen anywhere else:  our ovens have racks on rollers.  You can roll the rack out with a bigass dutch oven or turkey or something else large/heavy and just easily pick it right up without having to reach in and slide.

Jenn-Air and Kitchen Aid are Whirlpool brands.  When we built our house, we kind of thought they'd just become a "label" and lose some of their "cachet" and maybe weren't what they used to be, like Thermador (I don't think Kitchen Aid really has any cachet outside dishwashers and stand mixers, but has become a prestige brand for everything).  It appears, though, that Jenn-Air has remained pretty autonomous among Whirlpool divisions and continues to make pretty good stuff.

We have Jenn-Air ovens and dishwasher and they have been great.  No complaints there, but the only reason I have them is they were 50% off due to a business relationship I had at the time.  No longer have that hookup.

[Okie State 3818]

Back when we were looking it seems like Thermador had some decent package prices. Wolf/Subzero/Cove were more expensive. Both had significant supply chain delays.