I sorta liked Pink Floyd... but Fuck Roger Waters' political dumbassery!

[hayden_horn 11360]

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

 

[WhatTheBuck 28713]

2 hours ago, Goredho said:

He didn't just leave the band, he first made it an autocracy, and thus made it to where he, Gilmour and Richard Wright could never really work together again.  From most accounts not Roger Waters, he was the destructive force that led to the end of their best lineup.

He was also the creative genius behind their most successful era both musically and commercially. Sure he had an ego. Most successful people do. Gilmour had one too. So did Lennon and McCartney. So did Page and Plant. So did Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young. So did Slick and Balin and everyone else in the Airplane. So did Nicks and Buckingham and everyone else in Fleetwood Mac.

Sometimes conflict results in great art. Sometimes one asshole who demands perfection pisses off everyone else but it yields truly great works in the process.

It is what it is. If I had to choose between Floyd producing that amazing 4-album run of Dark Side, Wish You Were Here, Animals, and The Wall, and eventually breaking up, or not producing those albums and sticking together but never producing anything better than Division Bell, I’ll take the former. Heck, in the latter case we may never have even heard of them. 

[Fastbreak 3959]

Russia won the war in Europe. To think otherwise is wearing red, white and blues glasses.

The war started on Sept 1, 1939 because Germany (and most people forget Russia) attacked Poland. This was after they annexed territory including the Sudetenland.

The war ended with Russia in control of Poland, the Sudetenland, more than a third of Germany and some other European prizes; Hungary, Romania, etc.

[956 Worldwide 34444]

12 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

 

This motherfucker Chris Hedges was a host for RT until it went off the air in the U.S. He’s literally is a paid shill for Putin and you’re posting him here as if he has something to say. 

[Goredho 17349]

7 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

If I had to choose between Floyd producing that amazing 4-album run of Dark Side, Wish You Were Here, Animals, and The Wall, and eventually breaking up, or not producing those albums and sticking together but never producing anything better than Division Bell, I’ll take the former. Heck, in the latter case we may never have even heard of them. 

I don’t disagree with you.  Pink Floyd was Waters, Gilmore, Mason and whoever the drummer was.  Some people get off on the early Syd Barrett stuff, but I don’t care for most of it.  The stuff after Waters left was just a weak facsimile.

But within the context of those four, Waters wound up not getting along with the other three.  Had he been a bit less of a prick about everything, maybe we could have had more fantastic albums from the creative collective that was PF.  Albums on par Meddle, DSOTM and Wish You Were Here.  Or maybe that group had just run it’s course.  The Final Cut was also a weak facsimile, IMO.

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

34 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

This motherfucker Chris Hedges was a host for RT until it went off the air in the U.S. He’s literally is a paid shill for Putin and you’re posting him here as if he has something to say. 

Excellent rebuttal!

[washparkhorn 9935]

35 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

This motherfucker Chris Hedges was a host for RT until it went off the air in the U.S. He’s literally is a paid shill for Putin and you’re posting him here as if he has something to say. 

While working as a host for RT, Hedges publicly condemned Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. 

“. . . This provocation, which includes establishing a NATO missile base 100 miles from Russia's border, was foolish and highly irresponsible. It never made geopolitical sense.

This does not, however, excuse the invasion of Ukraine. Yes, the Russians were baited. But they reacted by pulling the trigger. This is a crime. Their crime.

Let us pray for a ceasefire. Let us work for a return to diplomacy and sanity, a moratorium on arms shipments to Ukraine and the withdrawal of Russian troops from the country. Let us hope for an end to war before we stumble into a nuclear holocaust that devours us all.”

https://web.archive.org/web/20220512145234/https://www.salon.com/2022/03/01/is-the-greatest-evil-was-baited-into-this--but-thats-no-excuse/

[956 Worldwide 34444]

1 minute ago, washparkhorn said:

While working as a host for RT, Hedges publicly condemned Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. 

“. . . This provocation, which includes establishing a NATO missile base 100 miles from Russia's border, was foolish and highly irresponsible. It never made geopolitical sense.

This does not, however, excuse the invasion of Ukraine. Yes, the Russians were baited. But they reacted by pulling the trigger. This is a crime. Their crime.

Let us pray for a ceasefire. Let us work for a return to diplomacy and sanity, a moratorium on arms shipments to Ukraine and the withdrawal of Russian troops from the country. Let us hope for an end to war before we stumble into a nuclear holocaust that devours us all.”

https://web.archive.org/web/20220512145234/https://www.salon.com/2022/03/01/is-the-greatest-evil-was-baited-into-this--but-thats-no-excuse/

Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014.  Hedges can eat a dick, all the evidence was there. 

7 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

Excellent rebuttal!

“Why won’t you ENGAGE with the Putin propagandists on his MERITS” 

Edited August 8, 2022 by 956 Worldwide

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

3 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014.  Hedges can eat a dick, all the evidence was there. 

“Why won’t you ENGAGE with the Putin propagandists on his MERITS” 

 

Is Chomsky a Putin propagandist?  

As to Hedges:

Quote

 

GT: Did RT tell you what to do? In which media do you feel you can speak out the truth more? 

Hedges: I denounced Putin's invasion of Ukraine. RT went dark 6 days later. I can't imagine Moscow would have looked at that very favorably on my denunciation, but I will say, at least for those 6 days, they never said a word. They were certainly aware of it. Complete editorial control was the condition that I kind of set down when RT approached me about doing the TeleSur show on RT. I initially said no, but they promised editorial freedom and they were true to their word.

 

Quote

 

GT: The entire archive of six years of your show On Contact for RT America has just been removed by YouTube. You believed it was done supposedly "in the name of censoring Russian propaganda." Can you further elaborate?

Hedges: They know it is not Russian propaganda. We rarely mentioned Russia or Putin, and the few times we did it was not in flattering terms. It's much more pernicious than that. RT gave a platform to a critic such as myself. We know from the director of the national intelligence report, as well as the testimony that Clapper gave before Congress, why they didn't like RT. It was a show that gave a voice to critics of the United States ruling class and the US empire. They knew I was not disseminating Russian propaganda, unless critiquing the ills of American society serves Russia's interest. To an extent it does. That's of course why RT gave me a show. But in a functioning democracy with a free press, that is the precise role of the press. We're not propagandists. The government has enough propagandists.

 

 

But go ahead and disregard everything he has to say.  Go Merica. Go CIA.  We were always at war with Eurasia.

 

[chainsaw 9838]

The world tour china thing sent me down this interesting rabbit hole

https://blog.levelmusic.com/what-every-artist-needs-to-know-before-touring-china/

Quote

In 2017, the Ministry of Culture squashed a Justin Bieber concert on the grounds of “bad behavior,” following his recent arrest for drunk driving, berating a portrait of former U.S. president Bill Clinton, and accounts of public urination. In 2018 citing similar “bad behavior,” China banned hip hop music and tattoos from national TV entirely. While artists aligned with either are often looked upon with greater scrutiny, enforcement of the ban has been inconsistent, and since then, many rappers such as Smokepurpp, Joey Bada$$, and Rae Sremmurd have played China scot-free.

Even if content censorship was straightforward, other requirements for a performance visa are ever-changing and may differ depending on the region, the artist’s country of origin, or even superfluous factors like time of year, current events, or other concerts happening at the same time. Working with a seasoned and reliable promoter or representative is a must for navigating the process, which is referred to as baopi (报批), meaning “report for approval.”

It’s typical for a festival promoter seeking to obtain an event permit to ask an independent American artist on the bill to provide:

• Setlist and .mp3 files (exactly as they will be performed on stage)
• Transcripts of all lyrics (including Mandarin language translations)
• Live performance video footage for each song 
• 3 music videos
• Biography (translated)
• Show/tour history for the last 2 years

After this information is sent to the Ministry of Culture, the government reviews and conducts its own additional research. This process can take anywhere from a few weeks to several months, and filing fees are not refundable for rejected applications. Artists and promoters must wait until approval is granted before announcing and promoting shows, which can sometimes fall within days of the performance.

The process, which seemed to only apply to large-scale performances, has been recently enforced on club and live-house shows with as little as 300 attendees. This can be a huge financial burden for independent artists or small-time promoters who face similar application fees but much smaller profit margins.

As recent as spring of 2019, an independent American artist playing 300-700 capacity rooms across China was asked to pay as much as 8,000 RMB (~$1,200 USD) in baopi fees for one show in a 500 capacity room in Beijing. Even with a sold-out show, earnings wouldn’t have been enough to cover application fees, let alone the promoter’s basic expenses. While many artists and promoters of smaller shows skip this process entirely, it’s becoming a risk that fewer are willing to take.

 

[956 Worldwide 34444]

Chomsky is also a dumbfuck on this issue, who is being interviewed by a Putin propagandist. . There’s right and wrong here and if you’re still spouting the line about it being NATO’s fault you haven’t been paying attention to oh…anything the Russians actually do or say.

[washparkhorn 9935]

8 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014.  

https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy 

[jimmyjazz 45560]

but but but NATO!

Crimony.

[956 Worldwide 34444]

Russia gets to take Crimea by force because of Toria Nuland’s phone calls. 
 

Like I said, this sort of verbal diarrhea is a good litmus test on whether you’re a thoughtful progressive that stands against imperialism and oppression, or if you’re a porridge-brained tankie with no setting but “blame America.” 
 

 

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

29 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Chomsky is also a dumbfuck on this issue,

Ah, well that's all I needed then.  Carry on. 

[WhatTheBuck 28713]

1 hour ago, Goredho said:

I don’t disagree with you.  Pink Floyd was Waters, Gilmore, Mason and whoever the drummer was.  Some people get off on the early Syd Barrett stuff, but I don’t care for most of it.  The stuff after Waters left was just a weak facsimile.

But within the context of those four, Waters wound up not getting along with the other three.  Had he been a bit less of a prick about everything, maybe we could have had more fantastic albums from the creative collective that was PF.  Albums on par Meddle, DSOTM and Wish You Were Here.  Or maybe that group had just run it’s course.  The Final Cut was also a weak facsimile, IMO.

Nick Mason played drums. Rick Wright played keys. They along with Barrett and Waters were the original members. I like the stuff from the Syd Barrett era, back when they were more pop-influenced. I like the heavy, improvisational, psychedelic stuff that really gets out there. I like everything up through The Wall and that’s where my collection ends. I used to own Final Cut, Division Bell, and Pulse but my CD collection was stolen in 1990 and I never replaced those. 

[956 Worldwide 34444]

13 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

Ah, well that's all I needed then.  Carry on. 

Noam Chomsky is a 93 year old linguistic theorist.  As far as I know, while he studied how language “works,” that doesn’t extend to actually speaking or understanding say— Russian or Ukrainian.  I am unaware of any serious inquiry he’s made into the history of those two nations, or modern Russian security policy and military doctrine, or Ukrainian politics, culture, and security, or any related field. 
 

So serious question, which is more likely

- Noam Chomsky, 93 year old linguist, has made himself deeply informed and understanding of post-Soviet security policy and the roots of Russian behavior and has formed a serious, informed opinion.

- Noam Chomsky has allowed his long-held political beliefs to inform the position he has taken on this issue and is no more authoritative than any other intelligent 93 year old with deep political beliefs. 
 

The second serious question is why it’s so hard for western leftists to question a 93 year old linguist. 

[washparkhorn 9935]

Chomsky on Russian invasion of Ukraine:

Russia’s invasion of Ukraine took much of the world by surprise. It is an unprovoked and unjustified attack that will go down in history as one of the major war crimes of the 21st century, argues Noam Chomsky in the exclusive interview for Truthout that follows.
 

Political considerations, such as those cited by Russian President Vladimir Putin, cannot be used as arguments to justify the launching of an invasion against a sovereign nation.

In the face of this horrific invasion, though, the U.S. must choose urgent diplomacy over military escalation, as the latter could constitute a “death warrant for the species, with no victors,” Chomsky says.
 

https://truthout.org/articles/noam-chomsky-us-military-escalation-against-russia-would-have-no-victors/

[jimmyjazz 45560]

1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

porridge-brained tankie

OK, that one is going in the file for future use.

[washparkhorn 9935]

Tankie - ultra leftist slur for Stalinists. (Tanks rolling into Czechslovakia). 

[G650 14107]

21 hours ago, Goredho said:

Waters is an ego maniac capable of musical greatness who killed my favorite band.

So yeah, fuck him.

This about sums it up.

[G650 14107]

2 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Nick Mason played drums. Rick Wright played keys. They along with Barrett and Waters were the original members. I like the stuff from the Syd Barrett era, back when they were more pop-influenced. I like the heavy, improvisational, psychedelic stuff that really gets out there. I like everything up through The Wall and that’s where my collection ends. I used to own Final Cut, Division Bell, and Pulse but my CD collection was stolen in 1990 and I never replaced those. 

The Final Cut was interesting but flawed. Momentary has a couple of decent songs. The Division Bell was very meh

 

Pulse was a magnificent set of performances though, it set the standard at the time for live albums

[WhatTheBuck 28713]

17 hours ago, G650 said:

The Final Cut was interesting but flawed. Momentary has a couple of decent songs. The Division Bell was very meh

Pulse was a magnificent set of performances though, it set the standard at the time for live albums

Shoot, I forgot about Momentary Lapse Of Reason. Just to correct the record, that was the post-Waters Floyd album I owned. I never bought Division Bell. (Fool me once...) All I heard of that was what got played on the radio and what was performed in concert. Nothing suggested I should go buy the album.

The Final Cut had some good tracks. It was basically a Roger Waters solo album. Rick Wright didn’t appear on it and he wasn’t even speaking to Roger by that point. Mason’s and Gilmour’s participation was limited. It wasn’t all that bad but it was a far cry from their earlier catalog. And as someone who prefers to listen to whole albums it eventually just wound up sitting on my shelf collecting dust before it was stolen.

Since the break-in I’ve owned The Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking. I also owned some live boots of both Roger Waters and post-Waters Floyd shows. They’re more fun to attend than to listen to on recording, especially when you’ve got full band options to choose from instead. I have a respectable little collection of live Floyd boots from The Wall and before.

I’ve seen hundreds and hundreds of concerts in my life and I’m pretty much all full up. I’d go see King Crimson if they came to town but that’s about the only band who could drag me out of the house. Roger Waters is playing here tomorrow night and I’m staying home. My last concert, though, was Roger Waters The Wall in 2010 and that was as fine a show as I’ve ever seen. Totally mind blowing.

Regarding Pulse setting a standard, that was released in 1995. I’m going to guess that you never heard Without A Net by the Grateful Dead, recorded in ‘89 and released in ‘90. (Floyd never had anything on the Dead when it came to live recording technology.) Or Frank Zappa’s two double disc albums from his ‘88 tour, The Best Band You Never Heard In Your Life and Make A Jazz Noise Here, released in ‘91. Those are three stellar live albums. And they all jam. Also, Waters has nothing on Zappa when it comes to being political. Hell, Frank has a song titled “Dickie’s Such An Asshole (it doesn’t appear on either of those albums). He even appeared before members of Congress and took on Tipper Gore and the PMRC.

And he performed with Pink Floyd.

 

[Dahobbs 17447]

On 8/8/2022 at 11:53 AM, TexArcher said:

I mean, that's pretty much what they're taught.  The Allies were losing until Pearl Harbor, then we got involved and stormed the beach at Normandy, liberated France, and the Allies won.

Nevermind that the Soviets lost something like 27 million young men, forced the Nazis back, and eventually took Berlin.  

There is no question that the Allies lose without the Soviets.  And it's probably not even very close.

 

22 hours ago, Fastbreak said:

Russia won the war in Europe. To think otherwise is wearing red, white and blues glasses.

The war started on Sept 1, 1939 because Germany (and most people forget Russia) attacked Poland. This was after they annexed territory including the Sudetenland.

The war ended with Russia in control of Poland, the Sudetenland, more than a third of Germany and some other European prizes; Hungary, Romania, etc.

The Soviet Union loses without material support from the other Allies. Without the USSR, the other Allies would have found it very difficult to get a foothold in Europe. That said, if the US continued to ramp up, I suspect it would have eventually overwhelmed Germany (the scale of difference in material/weapon production between the two is almost unfathomable). I just don't know the folks at home were ever going to go along with the amount of sacrifice necessary for that to happen.  

[G650 14107]

43 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Shoot, I forgot about Momentary Lapse Of Reason. Just to correct the record, that was the post-Waters Floyd album I owned. I never bought Division Bell. (Fool me once...) All I heard of that was what got played on the radio and what was performed in concert. Nothing suggested I should go buy the album.

The Final Cut had some good tracks. It was basically a Roger Waters solo album. Rick Wright didn’t appear on it and he wasn’t even speaking to Roger by that point. Mason’s and Gilmour’s participation was limited. It wasn’t all that bad but it was a far cry from their earlier catalog. And as someone who prefers to listen to whole albums it eventually just wound up sitting on my shelf collecting dust before it was stolen.

Since the break-in I’ve owned The Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking. I also owned some live boots of both Roger Waters and post-Waters Floyd shows. They’re more fun to attend than to listen to on recording, especially when you’ve got full band options to choose from instead. I have a respectable little collection of live Floyd boots from The Wall and before.

I’ve seen hundreds and hundreds of concerts in my life and I’m pretty much all full up. I’d go see King Crimson if they came to town but that’s about the only band who could drag me out of the house. Roger Waters is playing here tomorrow night and I’m staying home. My last concert, though, was Roger Waters The Wall in 2010 and that was as fine a show as I’ve ever seen. Totally mind blowing.

Regarding Pulse setting a standard, that was released in 1995. I’m going to guess that you never heard Without A Net by the Grateful Dead, recorded in ‘89 and released in ‘90. (Floyd never had anything on the Dead when it came to live recording technology.) Or Frank Zappa’s two double disc albums from his ‘88 tour, The Best Band You Never Heard In Your Life and Make A Jazz Noise Here, released in ‘91. Those are three stellar live albums. And they all jam. Also, Waters has nothing on Zappa when it comes to being political. Hell, Frank has a song titled “Dickie’s Such An Asshole (it doesn’t appear on either of those albums). He even appeared before members of Congress and took on Tipper Gore and the PMRC.

And he performed with Pink Floyd.

 

Oh I have heard them all any many more. Great stuff, I grew up on Zappa from my mom and Floyd from my dad. Loved the Dead in HS.  I would pretty much rate Pulse my favorite live album of all time though. I wore the CD out.

 

The Final Cut wasn't a great album or anything, it just had some bangers on it. Not Now John is one of my favorite Floyd songs.

 

In high school, my first band was called Rolling Waters, which was a mash up of the Rolling Stones and Roger Waters. We used to play a game with the Wall where we would say two numbers, the first was the track number, the second the lyric in that track, and you would have to spit out the appropriate word. Incredibly dorky upon hindsight, but hey we reallly liked Pink Floyd.

[Serak The Preparer 3424]

23 hours ago, washparkhorn said:

Chomsky on Russian invasion of Ukraine:

Russia’s invasion of Ukraine took much of the world by surprise. It is an unprovoked and unjustified attack that will go down in history as one of the major war crimes of the 21st century, argues Noam Chomsky in the exclusive interview for Truthout that follows.
 

Political considerations, such as those cited by Russian President Vladimir Putin, cannot be used as arguments to justify the launching of an invasion against a sovereign nation.

In the face of this horrific invasion, though, the U.S. must choose urgent diplomacy over military escalation, as the latter could constitute a “death warrant for the species, with no victors,” Chomsky says.
 

https://truthout.org/articles/noam-chomsky-us-military-escalation-against-russia-would-have-no-victors/

I do not think Chomsky is an idiot by any means but this is a great example of an idiotic statement, that "the U.S. must choose urgent diplomacy over military escalation". @MC Fresh Breath, can you think of even a faintly plausible diplomatic policy / action that results in Russia ceasing the invasion and killing Ukrainians? Or is the correct response to allow this to happen? I can actually understand a POV that says we shouldn't intervene and allow Russia to invade (I don't agree, but I understand), but how would that be "urgent diplomacy"? What does that even mean? 

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

15 minutes ago, Serak The Preparer said:

I do not think Chomsky is an idiot by any means but this is a great example of an idiotic statement, that "the U.S. must choose urgent diplomacy over military escalation". @MC Fresh Breath, can you think of even a faintly plausible diplomatic policy / action that results in Russia ceasing the invasion and killing Ukrainians? Or is the correct response to allow this to happen? I can actually understand a POV that says we shouldn't intervene and allow Russia to invade (I don't agree, but I understand), but how would that be "urgent diplomacy"? What does that even mean? 

I think of you as a sincere poster, so I'll respond to you, although you may find it disappointing. The "urgent diplomacy" line in that article I believe came from the interviewer.  This is a decent summary, I believe of Chomsky's thoughts on the matter:

https://scheerpost.com/2022/06/17/noam-chomsky-in-ukraine-diplomacy-has-been-ruled-out/

Entire thing worth a read. Esp for the background. 

Quote

 

So, criminality and stupidity on the Kremlin side, severe provocation on the U.S. side. That’s the background that has led to this. Can we try to bring this horror to an end? Or should we try to perpetuate it? Those are the choices.

There’s only one way to bring it to an end. That’s diplomacy. Now, diplomacy, by definition, means both sides accept it. They don’t like it, but they accept it as the least bad option. It would offer Putin some kind of escape hatch. That’s one possibility. The other is just to drag it out and see how much everybody will suffer, how many Ukrainians will die, how much Russia will suffer, how many millions of people will starve to death in Asia and Africa, how much we’ll proceed toward heating the environment to the point where there will be no possibility for a livable human existence. Those are the options. Well, with near 100% unanimity, the United States and most of Europe want to pick the no-diplomacy option. It’s explicit. We have to keep going to hurt Russia.

 

I think the correct 'response' is too late.  However, could there have been provocations prior (detailed better in that article than I could do myself) that perhaps should not have taken place?  I can't answer your question as to exactly what that diplomacy would look like, but what I think doesn't really matter.   As Chomsky points out, we won't choose it.  We will choose  war. We will keep the machine churning

 

Quote

The excuse: the claim that we have to defend ourselves from this paper tiger, so militarily incompetent it can’t move a couple of miles beyond its border without collapse. So, with a monstrous military budget, we have to severely harm ourselves and endanger the world, wasting enormous resources that will be necessary if we’re going to deal with the severe existential crises we face. Meanwhile, we pour taxpayer funds into the pockets of the fossil-fuel producers so that they can continue to destroy the world as quickly as possible. That’s what we’re witnessing with the vast expansion of both fossil-fuel production and military expenditures. There are people who are happy about this. Go to the executive offices of Lockheed Martin, ExxonMobil, they’re ecstatic. It’s a bonanza for them. They’re even being given credit for it. Now, they’re being lauded for saving civilization by destroying the possibility for life on Earth. Forget the Global South. If you imagine some extraterrestrials, if they existed, they’d think we were all totally insane. And they’d be right.

 

[washparkhorn 9935]

23 minutes ago, Serak The Preparer said:

can you think of even a faintly plausible diplomatic policy / action that results in Russia ceasing the invasion and killing Ukrainians?

Revive the intermediate nuclear missile ban;

Remove the nuke missiles from Poland with Russia removing same intermediate range missiles away from NATO nations;

Putin-Biden Summit and agree Ukraine shall be neutral;

Put Nord Stream 2 into operation. 

War is failure. 

I come to this view as a member of a career military family. Think of those in harm’a way, first and always. 

[Dahobbs 17447]

9 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

I think of you as a sincere poster, so I'll respond to you, although you may find it disappointing. The "urgent diplomacy" line in that article I believe came from the interviewer.  This is a decent summary, I believe of Chomsky's thoughts on the matter:

https://scheerpost.com/2022/06/17/noam-chomsky-in-ukraine-diplomacy-has-been-ruled-out/

Entire thing worth a read. Esp for the background. 

I think the correct 'response' is too late.  However, could there have been provocations prior (detailed better in that article than I could do myself) that perhaps should not have taken place?  I can't answer your question as to exactly what that diplomacy would look like, but what I think doesn't really matter.   As Chomsky points out, we won't choose it.  We will choose  war. We will keep the machine churning

 

 

Again, this completely ignores Russia's choices. This western centric view of the world is complete bullshit.  Russia isn't going to choose peace. Russia isn't going to choose de-escalation. And, frankly, the idea that it was western provocations that started this whole thing has been completely blown up by Russia's own incongruent statements regarding the reason(s) for its attack. 

[Dahobbs 17447]

5 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Revive the intermediate nuclear missile ban;

Remove the nuke missiles from Poland with Russia removing same intermediate range missiles away from NATO nations;

Putin-Biden Summit and agree Ukraine shall be neutral;

Put Nord Stream 2 into operation. 

War is failure. 

I come to this view as a member of a career military family. Think of those in harm’a way, first and always. 

Russia wouldn't agree to any of this so it is a pointless proposal. Or, Russia would agree to this and insist demilitarization of Ukraine as well. Then it would attack Ukraine under the guise of Ukraine violating the agreement. Peace at all cost is also failure. 

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

8 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Again, this completely ignores Russia's choices. This western centric view of the world is complete bullshit.  Russia isn't going to choose peace. Russia isn't going to choose de-escalation. And, frankly, the idea that it was western provocations that started this whole thing has been completely blown up by Russia's own incongruent statements regarding the reason(s) for its attack. 

Nope.  Did not ignore Russia's choices.  But it is strange that you're accusing myself ( and Chomksy?) of a Western centric view and then the rest of your paragraph gives a very Western centric take on the entire affair.  

What is the alternative to some form of diplomacy that we are not even attempting?  To, as former ambassador Chas Freeman puts it "fight Russia down to the last Ukrainian?"  

 

[Serak The Preparer 3424]

4 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

Nope.  Did not ignore Russia's choices.  But it is strange that you're accusing myself ( and Chomksy?) of a Western centric view and then the rest of your paragraph gives a very Western centric take on the entire affair.  

What is the alternative to some form of diplomacy that we are not even attempting?  To, as former ambassador Chas Freeman puts it "fight Russia down to the last Ukrainian?"  

 

Thank you for the article referenced above. I haven't read it yet but will.

I am not an expert on Russian affairs but do tend to believe that this is very little we could have done that would have changed Russia's action predating and leading to either the current or the 2014 invasions. But, let's say we could have and failed.

Your quote from Freeman implies that there is a now an option in which Russia does not fight to the last Ukrainian. At this point we have two primary options: diplomatic means (which I would argue is the same as do nothing, given the lack of any result) or assist the Ukrainians. Maybe doing nothing results in fewer Ukrainians, I don't know, but if it results in fewer deaths it is only because they have conquered another people. I don't see how that is any less a failure of diplomacy. 

[Dahobbs 17447]

8 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

Nope.  Did not ignore Russia's choices.  But it is strange that you're accusing myself ( and Chomksy?) of a Western centric view and then the rest of your paragraph gives a very Western centric take on the entire affair.  

How was my paragraph western centric? I don't think the cause of the war can be understood by looking at the actions of the west. And I don't think the west has a say in how long Ukrainians fight. If they want to negotiate, that's fine with me. If they want to be part of Russia, also fine with me. The problem of course is that Ukrainians don't want those things. And I'm perfectly fine with the US giving the Ukrainians pretty much whatever they want so that they have an actual say in what happens to their country. 

Quote

What is the alternative to some form of diplomacy that we are not even attempting?  To, as former ambassador Chas Freeman puts it "fight Russia down to the last Ukrainian?"  

It is up to the US or the rest of the west to negotiate the fate of Ukraine and Ukrainians.  

[Dahobbs 17447]

6 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

How was my paragraph western centric? I don't think the cause of the war can be understood by looking at the actions of the west. And I don't think the west has a say in how long Ukrainians fight. If they want to negotiate, that's fine with me. If they want to be part of Russia, also fine with me. The problem of course is that Ukrainians don't want those things. And I'm perfectly fine with the US giving the Ukrainians pretty much whatever they want so that they have an actual say in what happens to their country. 

It is up to the US or the rest of the west to negotiate the fate of Ukraine and Ukrainians.  

That last sentence should have said the opposite. "It isn't up to the US or the rest of the west"

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

3 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

How was my paragraph western centric? I don't think the cause of the war can be understood by looking at the actions of the west. And I don't think the west has a say in how long Ukrainians fight. If they want to negotiate, that's fine with me. If they want to be part of Russia, also fine with me. The problem of course is that Ukrainians don't want those things. And I'm perfectly fine with the US giving the Ukrainians pretty much whatever they want so that they have an actual say in what happens to their country. 

It is up to the US or the rest of the west to negotiate the fate of Ukraine and Ukrainians.  

The dismissal of Russia and diplomatic attempts seemed very Western thought to me.  I didn't mean it as a slight.  

@Serak The Preparer I hope I haven't presented myself as an expert.  I do enjoy reading expert thoughts that don't always align (such as Chomsky) with the majority of thought in this country.  

[Dahobbs 17447]

4 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

The dismissal of Russia and diplomatic attempts seemed very Western thought to me.  I didn't mean it as a slight.  

@Serak The Preparer I hope I haven't presented myself as an expert.  I do enjoy reading expert thoughts that don't always align (such as Chomsky) with the majority of thought in this country.  

I've studied Russia and Eastern Europe pretty extensively. I genuinely love Slavic culture. I'm not dismissing diplomatic efforts because I'm American and think Russians are always the bad guys. I'm dismissing them because the suggested diplomatic efforts fail to consider what is actually driving Russia's and Ukraine's actions, instead replacing them with western motivations and thought processes.  

Edited August 9, 2022 by Dahobbs

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

another one I read recently that I enjoyed.  its a long read

www.currentaffairs.org/2022/04/noam-chomsky-on-how-to-prevent-world-war-iii

you may not agree with everything in it, but its a good representation of the overall world view.

2 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

I've studied Russia and Eastern Europe pretty extensively. I genuinely love Slavic culture. I'm not dismissing diplomatic efforts because I'm American and think Russians are always the bad guys. I'm dismissing them because the suggested diplomatic efforts fail to consider what is actually driving Russia's and Ukraine's actions, instead replacing them with western motivations and thought processes.  

Fair enough. Again, apologies for any perceived slight.  

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by MC Fresh Breath

[Pods 7530]

Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014. The US and EU responded with negotiations and diplomacy for 8 years. Putin perceived that as weakness and invaded the rest of Ukraine in response.

Appeasement does not work. You don't negotiate with a bully, you punch them in the fucking nose. Putin will never stop, until he is stopped by force. 

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Pods