LBGTQ

[Anastasis 23481]

21 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

My ideology is based on the experts at the APA, and the AMA, as well as dozens of studies, all of which I have linked here in this thread. 

And you ignore all the position statements that contradict your pre-determined ideological position. You have not cited any studies in this thread that withstand even a bottom of the barrel level of critique.  You post links to studies that you don't even understand in terms of their level of evidence, limitations, or validity. 

14 minutes ago, troph said:

our feigned academic concern deserves 0% weight compared to my right to treatment.

I think that adults should be able to do whatever they want in terms of ingesting substances, as long as it has no direct impact on others.

15 minutes ago, troph said:

Your feigned academic concern deserves 0% weight compared to the rights of parents to control the care for their kids.

I think that parents should be able to direct care for their own children. Even if I disagree with it. 

16 minutes ago, troph said:

The only thing you say is no treatment across the board

This is not true. 

17 minutes ago, troph said:

override doctors and parents and patients because you’re not satisfied.

also not true. 

17 minutes ago, troph said:

I’d be glad to discuss the science with someone who isn’t a conservative ideologue. So yeah take your cloak of concern and fuck right off.

Probably also not true. 

 

 

[Anastasis 23481]

On 3/2/2023 at 8:37 PM, Anastasis said:

I am not particularly uncomfortable with people seeking treatment. And to be honest, I don't really personally care if some parent desperate to give relief to their child decides to administer puberty blockers and chase that with exogenous hormones. I can understand that in certain situations where other alternatives have been exhausted, people will cling to anything representing a glimmer of hope. OTOH, I am very uncomfortable with people strongly stating that the clinical research evidence is clear and demonstrates x, y, and z benefits with A and B medications when it does nothing of the sort. That is medical misinformation. I know that I will hear all types of rhetoric about why this case is different than all the others, why the well designed research studies are not tenable, and that anyone who points out the reality of the evidence is a fascist right winger [or whatever] nonsense. I get that. Doesn't change the evidence.  

I guess I just have to repeat myself in the face of outright misrepresentation. 

[Willfully Horn 8046]

18 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

You have not cited any studies in this thread that withstand even a bottom of the barrel level of critique

As I have previously stated, I will accept the dozens of named experts who, in peer reviewed studies, have convinced the American Psychological Association and the American Medical Association. All you offer is:

 

[Anastasis 23481]

3 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

As I have previously stated, I will accept the dozens of named experts who, in peer reviewed studies, have convinced the American Psychological Association and the American Medical Association. All you offer is:

 

I understand that you will just keep pointing to the American medical establishment without an ounce of critical or contextual reflection.

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2023/04/05/what-america-has-got-wrong-about-gender-medicine?

What America has got wrong about gender medicine

Too many doctors have suspended their professional judgment

For many Americans, the great tragedy of trans rights is the story of how Republican governors and state legislatures are stigmatising some of society’s most put-upon people—all too often in a cynical search for votes. This newspaper shares their dismay at these vicious tactics. In a free society it is not the government’s place to tell adults how to live and dress, which pronouns to use, or what to do with their bodies.

However, nestled within that first tragedy appears to be a second—this time a tragedy of good intentions. On different sides of the Atlantic, medical experts have weighed the evidence for the treatment of gender-dysphoric children and teenagers, those who feel intense discomfort with their biological sex. This treatment is life-changing and can lead to infertility. Broadly speaking, the consensus in America is that medical intervention and gender affirmation are beneficial and should be more accessible. Across Europe several countries now believe that the evidence is lacking and such interventions should be used sparingly and need further study. The Europeans are right.

[Willfully Horn 8046]

5 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I understand that you will just keep pointing to the American medical establishment without an ounce of critical or contextual reflection.

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2023/04/05/what-america-has-got-wrong-about-gender-medicine?

What America has got wrong about gender medicine

Too many doctors have suspended their professional judgment

For many Americans, the great tragedy of trans rights is the story of how Republican governors and state legislatures are stigmatising some of society’s most put-upon people—all too often in a cynical search for votes. This newspaper shares their dismay at these vicious tactics. In a free society it is not the government’s place to tell adults how to live and dress, which pronouns to use, or what to do with their bodies.

However, nestled within that first tragedy appears to be a second—this time a tragedy of good intentions. On different sides of the Atlantic, medical experts have weighed the evidence for the treatment of gender-dysphoric children and teenagers, those who feel intense discomfort with their biological sex. This treatment is life-changing and can lead to infertility. Broadly speaking, the consensus in America is that medical intervention and gender affirmation are beneficial and should be more accessible. Across Europe several countries now believe that the evidence is lacking and such interventions should be used sparingly and need further study. The Europeans are right.

Your article is paywalled. 
 

We have been down this road before. The contention  is rooted in long termed efficacy. The criticism you espouse points to societal pushback, and the deleterious effects of that downpressing on mental health outcomes, and not on the effects of medical intervention on those outcomes.

Gaslighting.

[Anastasis 23481]

7 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

We have been down this road before. The contention  is rooted in long termed efficacy. The criticism you espouse points to societal pushback, and the deleterious effects of that downpressing on mental health outcomes, and not on the effects of medical intervention on those outcomes.

Gibberish. 

[Willfully Horn 8046]

Then let me longcat for you.

These studies examine mental health outcomes for medial transition patients. In the short term, medical intervention is remarkably effective at improving mental states for those involved. Which is viewed as effective treatment. Over time, however, societal pushback, ie disapproval, rejection, targeting, degrades those same mental health outcomes. Which some view as non effective treatment. Because medical transition treats an ndividual, not a society.

 Interestingly, this societal disapproval quickly changes to societal support with minimal effort. More information leads to greater acceptance. 

To my understanding, filtering out negative mental health outcomes as a result of societal disapproval, is the difference of opinion cited in your truncated link.

Certainly, the Economist is not considering the very low rate of detransition in coming to its lede.

[Anastasis 23481]

 

7 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

In the short term, medical intervention is remarkably effective at improving mental states for those involved. Which is viewed as effective treatment. Over time, however, societal pushback, ie disapproval, rejection, targeting, degrades those same mental health outcomes. Which some view as non effective treatment. Because medical transition treats an ndividual, not a society.

 

Your intended audience must be total idiots, because this is just more gibberish. 

[Anastasis 23481]

Or maybe you are just a chatbot, cause that looks like some dumb shit I would expect to read after a GPT prompt. 

[Willfully Horn 8046]

Thought you’d be better with words. My mistake.

[South Austin 52568]

Good enough for two threads.

[troph 24905]

At least those who flat out say they want my people legislated out of existence are intellectually honest. They allow a very easy and clear consideration for those on the sidelines wondering. 
 

the smarter cloak room opponents - and Ana is one of them - the smarter kind - oppose with sophistication, whataboutism, calls for objectivity without consideration of the other side, use both sides arguments when cornered and other trickery to hide a simple motivation - similar legislative opposition to our freedom. 
 

tell me you think I’m crazy and the laws should exclude me from society and from existence and I can simply say no. Play the disingenuous games you play and you get a fuck off. A fuck all the way off because you are more dangerous than any others because you require openness from your opponent but never reciprocate such openness in said discussions. 
 

Simply put in Star Wars lingo… 

Edited August 18, 2023 by troph

[troph 24905]

And the saddest parts about this debate are the loss of humans and the loss to society as a whole.
 

 trans teens and young adults do kill themselves for lack of support. They run away, live on the streets, prostitute themselves, to claw for freedom. It’s gotten a lot better but it’s still bad if you aren’t lucky. Society was amazing for a few years now it’s awful again. We’ve always been here, hell when I was a young adult in my 20s the underground scene of grown ass “men” with a secret stash of cross dressing stuff in their attic was impressive. Dozens of message boards like this with us. Those “men” had no way to express themselves and easily a small but impressive percentage of them were actually trans - like me. Thousands who couldn’t, wouldn’t and sadly shouldn’t transition. Some with support most completely in secret. Miserable people. I was one.

but once we can overcome and just be us, we end up unlocking a whole experience that is worthy of attention. I could write a book on misogyny and what it looks like in a before and after sort of way. With humor, colorful poignant stories and communicate in ways that everyone would have the “ah ha” moment and the women could say “I told you so”. In addition our level of self reflection and self understanding would make the AA crowd blush with envy. Our ability to read cues and the room are usually off the charts because our lives depend on it. We effectively have a 6th or even 7th sense developed out of necessity.  we have so much to offer women on how to handle a room full of men, men how to interact with women successfully, and we are generally wickedly smart. Society would greatly benefit from allowing us a welcomed seat at the table. Instead as a class we are tying to raise our average income up from under $20k per year and find reliable health care.

 

It’s infuriating, sad and pathetic.  We are super heros that are misunderstood and targeted by society for extermination because we somehow threaten those who believe in ancient religions. Fml. 

Edited August 18, 2023 by troph

[Bojack 2081]

1 hour ago, troph said:

A fuck all the way off because you are more dangerous than any others because you require openness from your opponent but never reciprocate such openness in said discussions. 
 

You really captured the essence of it right here. He's never very open about his own views. He's just here to scrutinize the views of others.

 

[MissingInAction 25172]

[Anastasis 23481]

1 hour ago, troph said:

the smarter cloak room opponents - and Ana is one of them - the smarter kind - oppose with sophistication, whataboutism, calls for objectivity without consideration of the other side, use both sides arguments when cornered and other trickery to hide a simple motivation - similar legislative opposition to our freedom. 
 

tell me you think I’m crazy and the laws should exclude me from society and from existence and I can simply say no.

I don't think that you should be excluded from society and I don't think that you should be exterminated. I am not sure how either of those accusations are logically related to my position regarding the evidence base, or lack thereof, supporting the use of hormone treatment broadly for GD among youth. You are understandably personally passionate about this topic. And I know that you are well-intentioned in that, based on your own lived experience, you want children that are suffering to experience the relief that hormonal treatment and transitioning has given you. But in terms of medical science, your individual experience is not universally transferable. The epidemiology and profile of children and adolescents presenting with GD has substantially shifted over the last decade. The shifts at presentation are throwing up red flags among specialists in other countries....countries that are among the most inclusive to the trans community. Denmark, Sweden, Finland, etc. etc. throwing up the flag and reassessing their approach to treatment in the context of the background epidemiology. The result is that the American approach is more and more an outlier from the rest of the western world, and the lack of grounding in EBM more and more obvious. 

 

 

27 minutes ago, Bojack said:

You really captured the essence of it right here. He's never very open about his own views. He's just here to scrutinize the views of others.

I think that I have been quite open on my views regarding hormonal treatments in children and adolescents. If there is some specific curiosity you have that has been unfulfilled, shoot away.  I bet I can address it by simply quoting one of my previous posts. 

[MissingInAction 25172]

On 8/17/2023 at 3:51 PM, 'stache said:

Well, they're being replaced by Californians who think their governor is requiring litterboxes in classrooms for trans-species students. The think $40K per year and a balsa wood stick house in Katy is really the American Dream. I would say, comparing the UCal and Cal State systems to Texas' systems tells you where each shows how much each place values intelligence. 

[atomheartbevo 89778]

11 hours ago, MissingInAction said:

Don't forget, the Nazi in the white shirt and tie shoved a dildo up his ass while live-streaming to show that he wasn't gay.

NTTIAWWT

[cactusflinthead 27601]

Killed because she had a rainbow flag outside her store

[troph 24905]

Mother fucker. 😡 

[Biff Tannen 45712]

On 8/18/2023 at 5:12 PM, MissingInAction said:

Can you expound upon this rebuttal beyond a gif?

[MissingInAction 25172]

15 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Can you expound upon this rebuttal beyond a gif?

No.

[atomheartbevo 89778]

Shitheads in Austin doing their best to make sure eligible teens vote next year

https://www.kxan.com/news/local/protesters-stood-outside-austin-high-school-with-anti-lgbtq-abortion-messages/

Quote

As students were released from McCallum High School Tuesday afternoon, the district confirms roughly eight protesters stood outside with anti-LGBTQ and anti-abortion signs. 

“The protesters were on the sidewalk but were blocking the buses, so they were asked to move,” a spokesperson for AISD said. “Austin ISD Police officers were on-site to ensure everyone’s safety, and the protesters left after about an hour.”

 

[wildcat09 29376]

On 8/19/2023 at 7:36 PM, cactusflinthead said:

Killed because she had a rainbow flag outside her store

Just like all of the trauma inflicted on pregnant women since Roe was overturned, Ana thinks this is good but will pretend he doesn't.

[troph 24905]

he's still the fourth most prolific poster in the LGBTQ thread. All of it opposition.

[Anastasis 23481]

1 hour ago, troph said:

All of it opposition.

Virtually all of them related to discussion of the evidence base for hormonal treatment of children and young adolescents, and contrasting the various european position statements with the American ones. Which is basically the same thing as wanting to shoot people flying a pride flag to death. 

Edited August 23, 2023 by Anastasis

[nbmishoid 962]

Well, Ana, consider the Tuskegee saga.  At some point the marginalized community began to not recognize the so called objectivity and authority of the oppressing group.  Stick to your knitting, so to speak. 

[Anastasis 23481]

8 minutes ago, nbmishoid said:

Well, Ana, consider the Tuskegee saga.  At some point the marginalized community began to not recognize the so called objectivity and authority of the oppressing group.  Stick to your knitting, so to speak. 

I am not sure that your reference makes the point that you think that you are making. But it is certainly interesting to consider the lessons of Tuskegee wrt biomedical research ethics and concepts such as informed consent in the context of this discussion. Maybe we can also work in a discussion of the history of lobotomy treatment and Nobel prizes as well. 

['stache 21838]

Oklahoma state superintendent of schools is on a culture war and yesterday posted an altered tik tok of a local school librarian claiming it is proof of "woke indoctrination" (I only saw a still shot and its a lady holding books in the library wearing a pride shirt). Today a fucking elementary school gets a bomb threat with the phrase "we will bomb every school until woke indoctrination stops." A bomb threat. Against elementary school kids. Based on "woke" mania. The man is a fucking terrorist. All of you using that term are terrorists. People are different, just get the fuck over it already! JFC, gaining votes by conduct that results in kids facing bomb threats. Just another day of the culture wars I guess, gotta get those votes! Who cares if a few kids die. (The OKC bombing was actually quite similar, right wing nutjob, killed dozens of toddlers, we all acted like it was an aberration, yet here we are). 

Edited August 23, 2023 by 'stache

[nbmishoid 962]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

I am not sure that your reference makes the point that you think that you are making. But it is certainly interesting to consider the lessons of Tuskegee wrt biomedical research ethics and concepts such as informed consent in the context of this discussion. Maybe we can also work in a discussion of the history of lobotomy treatment and Nobel prizes as well. 

Ana,

‘And that’s fair.   But, what I’m mostly asking you to consider is the marginalized group’s point of view, in response to “oppressing groups” perceived representatives. From this third party’s view, it seems your credibility with this marginalized group, hereabouts, is low.  And generally getting lower.  Please think about why.

‘Thanks

[Anastasis 23481]

47 minutes ago, nbmishoid said:

But, what I’m mostly asking you to consider is the marginalized group’s point of view

I think that I am giving it the appropriate weighting in terms of evaluating the medical evidence objectively. 

[Anastasis 23481]

48 minutes ago, nbmishoid said:

it seems your credibility with this marginalized group, hereabouts, is low.  And generally getting lower.  Please think about why.

Because I am pushing back on over extended assessments of the evidence, in line with the exact same conclusions from medical bodies overseas. 

Counting on YGIFS to post and keep me out of the top three posters on the thread. 

[YGIFS 19452]

No way man, you’re on a roll.  
 

Between the mandatory hormonal treatment of children and the millions of abducted kids found in underground tunnels, I have dialed back the posting back a lot and am just here to learn.  

[South Austin 52568]

So is McCallum High School the city's bastion for gayness and liberal ideology?  Dickheads have been protesting LGTBQ and abortion rights outside McCallum the last couple days as the students were dismissed for the day.  My daughter (who's gay and a McCallum senior) can let this kind of bullshit slide off her.  But really, a high school? 

Protestors carrying anti-LGBTQ and anti-abortion signs disrupt dismissal at McCallum High School

Edited August 24, 2023 by South Austin

[troph 24905]

9 minutes ago, South Austin said:

So is McCallum High School the city's bastion for gayness and liberal ideology?  Dickheads have been protesting LGTBQ and abortion rights outside McCallum the last couple days as the students were dismissed for the day.  My daughter (who's gay and a McCallum senior) can let this kind of bullshit slide off her.  But really, a high school? 

Protestors carrying anti-LGBTQ and anti-abortion signs disrupt dismissal at McCallum High School

with the support I know she's getting at home and probably a great friend group it's not hard to know why it doesn't get to her, but it gets to her.  I know you know that, but hate is hate. inoculating some from it with support is exactly what we should do, but it's still there.

[Sawbonz 27584]

1 hour ago, South Austin said:

So is McCallum High School the city's bastion for gayness and liberal ideology?  Dickheads have been protesting LGTBQ and abortion rights outside McCallum the last couple days as the students were dismissed for the day.  My daughter (who's gay and a McCallum senior) can let this kind of bullshit slide off her.  But really, a high school? 

Protestors carrying anti-LGBTQ and anti-abortion signs disrupt dismissal at McCallum High School

They’ve apparently been out in force on the west mall yelling slurs at students who I guess they think look “gay” and telling them they are going to hell. Back in my day the student radicals would have been in their faces shouting right back. Probably afraid those nut jobs will shoot them if they do that

[Sawbonz 27584]

Old fat white guys standing in 100 + degree heat to harass kids. Losers

[troph 24905]

16 hours ago, nbmishoid said:

Ana,

‘And that’s fair.   But, what I’m mostly asking you to consider is the marginalized group’s point of view, in response to “oppressing groups” perceived representatives. From this third party’s view, it seems your credibility with this marginalized group, hereabouts, is low.  And generally getting lower.  Please think about why.

‘Thanks

I've explained that the "we should halt all treatment until there is more science to support it" argument has a loooooooooong history with the trans community. there was and still effectively is nearly zero money in trans research.  any time an article is published in favor of treatment it is ridiculed as not robust enough and then the argument comes out again, "we should halt all treatment until there is more science to support it" and then the same thing happens, no one puts any money into it and detractors rinse and repeat.

look, being trans is a mixed bag of blessings and curses, that's just the reality we live in. there is social pressure to conform and biological pressure not to conform. until recently (modern history) there has not be any medical based treatments at all. now we have some, they are far from perfect but for those that are trans and have support, medical transition works. that simply isn't going to be up for any cisgender scientist to say otherwise.  there are hundreds of thousands of trans people that will tell you you can have their meds when you peel them out of our cold dead hands.  in fact, on the exceedingly rare times I've second guessed myself, the one thing that is crystal fucking clear, there is zero chance, absolutely zero chance I'm stopping my estrogen. It's a miracle drug, and hundreds of thousands of trans people - of all ages - will confirm exactly what I'm saying.

side note, far from perfect hasn't stopped other psychiatric/pharmacological treatments for mental health concerns. and I'm far more comfortable taking estrogen than I am any number of anxiety or depression meds.  I'd love more science for trans people, that would be awesome and we could continue to improve treatments and outcomes like we do with everything else.

so, the opposition can straight up attempt to legislate us out of existence or they can block treatment with the age old approach of saying "we should halt all treatment until there is more science to support it." It's the same thing to me, except one is much more dangerous imo than the other because I think society as a whole will soundly reject the former and not understand the intent of the latter. 

yes I know ana says, he's only concerned about the kids (the exceedingly rare cisgender kid that is confused and takes blockers or cross-sex hormones), but that's because there isn't really a way to articulate his opposition generally without it being clear to everyone he's really in the first group.  once we halt treatment for kids then we can move on to adults.  don't believe me, look at the proposed legislation.

so yeah.... troll.

 

[smoky 840]

RE: the McCallum protesters, in our weekly email from the principal (LASA), she said they were professional protesters whose goal was to provoke people into physically responding so they can sue.

She said they recently won a multi million dollar suit against the LAPD for not protecting them during their protest.

She's a fantastic leader and communicator and we're lucky to have her.

She also added this, which seems appropriate for Cloak Room:

What I need from you:  Please take a few minutes today to talk with your student about the difference between what this small group of men are doing (I believe there are around 8) and traditional protests.  I have a very strong belief in the right of assembly and our right to protest.  I have a similar strong belief that two people who are on the complete opposite sides of an issue, even a sensitive issue, can come together and have civil discourse such that both leave better understanding the reasoning behind the other’s argument/point of view.  Peaceful public protest is a remarkable thing in this country.  We can find solidarity and make our beliefs known to those in power.  However, this is not the goal of the organization that was in Austin last week.  Their goal is to say the most hateful things they can think of to goad students (and parents) into a confrontation for the purposes of suing. 

Bottom line – if we see them near campus, we ignore them.  No matter what awful things they say – we don’t give them what they want – attention.  By turning our backs on them and ignoring them, we win. 

[safe sex 11746]

Nm it's too hot

Edited August 27, 2023 by safe sex

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

RE: the McCallum protesters, in our weekly email from the principal (LASA), she said they were professional protesters whose goal was to provoke people into physically responding so they can sue.

She said they recently won a multi million dollar suit against the LAPD for not protecting them during their protest.

She's a fantastic leader and communicator and we're lucky to have her.

She also added this, which seems appropriate for Cloak Room:

What I need from you:  Please take a few minutes today to talk with your student about the difference between what this small group of men are doing (I believe there are around 8) and traditional protests.  I have a very strong belief in the right of assembly and our right to protest.  I have a similar strong belief that two people who are on the complete opposite sides of an issue, even a sensitive issue, can come together and have civil discourse such that both leave better understanding the reasoning behind the other’s argument/point of view.  Peaceful public protest is a remarkable thing in this country.  We can find solidarity and make our beliefs known to those in power.  However, this is not the goal of the organization that was in Austin last week.  Their goal is to say the most hateful things they can think of to goad students (and parents) into a confrontation for the purposes of suing. 

Bottom line – if we see them near campus, we ignore them.  No matter what awful things they say – we don’t give them what they want – attention.  By turning our backs on them and ignoring them, we win. 

If someone was so inclined, they could leave their cell phone at home, obtain a high powered BB gun (one of those German ones), set up 2-3 blocks away on a roof or in some cover, and have some fun with those pieces of shit. Just sayin.

[hookemATL 11838]

12 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

 

If someone was so inclined, they could leave their cell phone at home, obtain a high powered BB gun (one of those German ones), set up 2-3 blocks away on a roof or in some cover, and have some fun with those pieces of shit. Just sayin.

 

What about just drive by and pelt them with water balloons filled with piss and shit?

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

What about just drive by and pelt them with water balloons filled with piss and shit?

I like your moxie. But that is how you catch an assault charge.

[Brisketexan 105275]

You get the band’s tuba players to come outside and drown them out with the loudest, most obnoxious clown music they can play. Without taking a break. Mock them, perfectly legally. Just get in their faces, stand dead still, and make the tubas blare non stop.

[Neonmoon 38130]

2 hours ago, Patricio Swayze said:

 

If someone was so inclined, they could leave their cell phone at home, obtain a high powered BB gun (one of those German ones), set up 2-3 blocks away on a roof or in some cover, and have some fun with those pieces of shit. Just sayin.

 

Depending on one’s inclination, it’s entirely within the realm of possibility to follow said protestors to their place of residence, and get creative with some pliers and a blowtorch 

if one were so inclined 

[troph 24905]

Proof Jesus is a queerbird. Showing his rainbow flag tonight. 

[atomheartbevo 89778]

3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

You get the band’s tuba players to come outside and drown them out with the loudest, most obnoxious clown music they can play. Without taking a break. Mock them, perfectly legally. Just get in their faces, stand dead still, and make the tubas blare non stop.

It’s McCallum, I’m sure they could do a good Curb Your Enthusiasm theme.

[South Austin 52568]

17 hours ago, Patricio Swayze said:

If someone was so inclined, they could leave their cell phone at home, obtain a high powered BB gun (one of those German ones), set up 2-3 blocks away on a roof or in some cover, and have some fun with those pieces of shit. Just sayin.

 

[troph 24905]

I don’t support violence of any kind, but some high quality heckling would be very nice. 

[Restless Native 315]

Does anybody have any idea why they chose McCallum? Is it more of this library book bullshit?