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Mo Horn

By Mo Horn
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troph
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Colorado making a hard sell for us. Not sure the NIL package they’ll offer but the official visit was off the charts.        

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36 years ago I was 11. One fall afternoon walking home from school, I took a slight detour and found myself standing under a bridge smoking a cigarette I stole from my neighbors parents. It was a Bens

Pancho
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Welp, if you see a viral video going around of a Black guy in a "Hook 'Em Horns" Nike t-shirt yelling at the radical conservative protestors at the Art Institute of Chicago today who were "protesting"

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Don Johnson

Don Johnson 4852

Posted
Posted
11 hours ago, Willfully Horn said:

Red state Montana isn’t completely fucked. The ruling reinforces the need for an Amendment guaranteeing the right to privacy. (I know that my statement presupposes that Amendments still mean something).

 

“Earlier today, the Montana Supreme Court ruled that SB 99, a 2023 Montana law that categorically bans life-saving gender-affirming care for transgender youth, is unconstitutional under the Montana state constitution’s privacy clause, which prohibits government intrusion on private medical decisions.”

 

https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/montana-supreme-court-rules-in-favor-of-families-doctors-blocks-ban-on-healthcare-for-transgender-youth

UK goes the opposite way

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/uk-ban-puberty-blockers-transgender-young-people/

Quote

 

The United Kingdom indefinitely extended a ban on puberty blockers for people younger than 18, barring medication prescriptions used to treat gender dysphoria, the government announced this week. There will be exemptions for people who choose to participate in a clinical trial aiming to study the safety and effectiveness of puberty suppression, which is set to begin next year. Young people already prescribed puberty blockers are allowed to continue taking them, the government said.

Britain's health secretary, Wes Streeting, announced the decision Wednesday. He cited guidance from an independent panel that suggested prescribing puberty blockers to young people carries an "unacceptable risk" and recommended indefinite restrictions "while work is done to ensure the safety" of those treatments.

"Children's healthcare must always be evidence-led," Streeting said in a statement. "The independent expert Commission on Human Medicines found that the current prescribing and care pathway for gender dysphoria and incongruence presents an unacceptable safety risk for children and young people."

 

 

 

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Willfully Horn

Willfully Horn 8284

Posted
Posted
7 hours ago, Don Johnson said:

UK goes the opposite way

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/uk-ban-puberty-blockers-transgender-young-people/

 

 

As this subject has been discussed, ad naseum, I will spoiler the Mayo Clinic’s statement on the negative effects of hormone blockers. (Hint, “unacceptable risk” is both subjective and unsupported). The UK panel is political bullshit. 
 

Spoiler

What are the possible side effects and complications?

Possible side effects of GnRH analogue treatment include:

  • Swelling at the site of the shot.
  • Weight gain.
  • Hot flashes.
  • Headaches.
  • Mood changes.

Use of GnRH analogues also might have long-term effects on:

 
  • Growth spurts.
  • Bone growth.
  • Bone density.
  • Fertility, depending on when the medicine is started.

If individuals assigned male at birth begin using GnRH analogues early in puberty, they might not develop enough skin on the penis and scrotum to be able to have some types of gender-affirming surgeries later in life. But other surgery approaches usually are available.

Those who take GnRH analogues typically have their height checked every few months. Yearly bone density and bone age tests may be advised. To support bone health, youth taking puberty blockers may need to take calcium and vitamin D supplements.

It's important to stay on schedule with all medical appointments. Between appointments, contact a member of the health care team if any changes cause concern.

 

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Dutchrudder

Dutchrudder 11247

Posted
Posted
On 12/13/2024 at 3:49 PM, Willfully Horn said:

As this subject has been discussed, ad naseum, I will spoiler the Mayo Clinic’s statement on the negative effects of hormone blockers. (Hint, “unacceptable risk” is both subjective and unsupported). The UK panel is political bullshit. 
 

  Hide contents

 

What are the possible side effects and complications?

Possible side effects of GnRH analogue treatment include:

  • Swelling at the site of the shot.
  • Weight gain.
  • Hot flashes.
  • Headaches.
  • Mood changes.

Use of GnRH analogues also might have long-term effects on:

 
  • Growth spurts.
  • Bone growth.
  • Bone density.
  • Fertility, depending on when the medicine is started.

If individuals assigned male at birth begin using GnRH analogues early in puberty, they might not develop enough skin on the penis and scrotum to be able to have some types of gender-affirming surgeries later in life. But other surgery approaches usually are available.

Those who take GnRH analogues typically have their height checked every few months. Yearly bone density and bone age tests may be advised. To support bone health, youth taking puberty blockers may need to take calcium and vitamin D supplements.

It's important to stay on schedule with all medical appointments. Between appointments, contact a member of the health care team if any changes cause concern.

 

Can you imagine if that list of side effects were the limit for approving drugs as "safe"?  We would never see another medicine advertised on TV again in our lives. 

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DixonHur

DixonHur 11970

Posted
Posted
On 12/12/2024 at 12:30 PM, Mo Horn said:

Fuck you Nancy

The tragedy here, as I see it, is not the argument as to whether or not being transgender is a a mental illness, which it likely is, but rather that the term "mental illness" has been weaponized.  

As someone who battles mental illness daily, I find it disheartening that we still live in a world that stigmatizes mental health as being different and/or worse that physical illness.

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 107012

Posted
Posted
We have to protect the children! 
...except from gun violence and touchy feely pastors. Our hands are tied.

And from childhood diseases. Don’t forget that. VACCINES ARE THA DEBIL!

Conservatives are the worst people at ROI in human history.

Goal: WE MUST PROTECT CHILDREN!

Things that they do not care about in that respect that impact huge numbers of kids: gun violence, institutionalized pedophilia in religion, having good public education, free school lunches, vaccines, functioning foster care systems and CPS, WIC programs, readily available prenatal care, readily available OB-GYN care for deliveries of babies….and dear God we can keep going.

Things they do care about….which impact a tiny handful of kids: drag shows and hormone therapy for trans kids.

If it makes functionally no difference in the well being of children, it’s the most important issue in the world. If it actually matters to the lives of millions upon millions of children…they actively oppose it.

Dumbest. Timeline. Ever.
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Pancho

Pancho 46372

Posted
Posted

I just don’t get it with radical republicans such as Anastasias when he says leave the children alone. Does he understand what gender affirming care actually is? Does he think doctors are performing surgeries on children?

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troph

troph 25247

Posted
Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, DixonHur said:

The tragedy here, as I see it, is not the argument as to whether or not being transgender is a a mental illness, which it likely is, but rather that the term "mental illness" has been weaponized.  

As someone who battles mental illness daily, I find it disheartening that we still live in a world that stigmatizes mental health as being different and/or worse that physical illness.

I’d like to give you a big fuck you to this post but then it would likely prove your point. I do not accept the mental illness label for the reasons you’ve stated. Heck I even have temporary mental health issues from  Covid that I would rather refer to as a mild brain injury - which I believe is accurate. Mental illness is a label I refuse to accept. I do however understand that I have a hormone disorder and take estrogen to correct it, beautifully I might add. One of the most effective treatments with the least amount of unintended side effects of any medication I’ve ever taken. 
 

so no fuck you but given the stigma no I can’t accept I have a mental illness. 

Edited by troph
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Anastasis

Anastasis 23717

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Pancho said:

Huh?

(And I should know better considering…)

I was responding to someone calling me a piece of shit for posting "UK made a pretty easy evidence based decision. It was discussed on this thread months ago, but the US medical establishment has gone rogue." 

 

18 minutes ago, troph said:

I’d like to give you a big fuck you to this post but then it would likely prove your point. I do not accept the mental illness label for the reasons you’ve stated. Heck I even have temporary mental health issues from  Covid that I would rather refer to as a mild brain injury - which I believe is accurate. Mental illness is a label I refuse to accept. I do however understand that I have a hormone disorder and take estrogen to correct it, beautifully I might add. One of the most effective treatments with the least amount of unintended side effects of any medication I’ve ever taken. 
 

so no fuck you but given the stigma no I can’t accept I have a mental illness. 

Yeah, your response is only making his point more clear. 

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Anastasis

Anastasis 23717

Posted
Posted
29 minutes ago, Pancho said:

I just don’t get it with radical republicans such as Anastasias when he says leave the children alone. Does he understand what gender affirming care actually is? Does he think doctors are performing surgeries on children?

You can read the thread if you want to understand my position on the issue. If you need me to landmark a post for you where the relevant exchange begins, I can do so. 

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DixonHur

DixonHur 11970

Posted
Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, troph said:

I’d like to give you a big fuck you to this post but then it would likely prove your point. I do not accept the mental illness label for the reasons you’ve stated. Heck I even have temporary mental health issues from  Covid that I would rather refer to as a mild brain injury - which I believe is accurate. Mental illness is a label I refuse to accept. I do however understand that I have a hormone disorder and take estrogen to correct it, beautifully I might add. One of the most effective treatments with the least amount of unintended side effects of any medication I’ve ever taken. 
 

so no fuck you but given the stigma no I can’t accept I have a mental illness. 

I simply refuse to bow to the stigma.

My brain chemistry is abnormal, but that doesn't make me any less of a person.  Just las someone with cancer or a disability isn't any less of a person.  We're just not "normal", by which I just mean outside the meaty part of the bell curve.  And that's ok.  In fact, I like not being normal.

But back to the topic at hand.  From the outside looking in, it seems that both dysphoria and dysmorphia stem from chemical imbalances in the brain.  I think, with no specific knowledge or scientific training, that hormone therapy treats the symptoms, not the root cause.  

That doesn't mean I don't think it's a viable option, or that I think transgenderism is wrong.  I just don't think it's root is physical.

Happy to be proven wrong.

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troph

troph 25247

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

I simply refuse to bow to the stigma.

My brain chemistry is abnormal, but that doesn't make me any less of a person.  Just las someone with cancer or a disability isn't any less of a person.  We're just not "normal", by which I just mean outside the meaty part of the bell curve.  And that's ok.  In fact, I like not being normal.

But back to the topic at hand.  From the outside looking in, it seems that both dysphoria and dysmorphia stem from chemical imbalances in the brain.  I think, with no specific knowledge or scientific training, that hormone therapy treats the symptoms, not the root cause.  

That doesn't mean I don't think it's a viable option, or that I think transgenderism is wrong.  I just don't think it's root is physical.

Happy to be proven wrong.

Well the assumption that the cure would be to be ok with your biological sex is not going to sit well with any trans person. In fact the number one way to know your trans in the face of all the hate and persecution is to look the mirror every time you take estrogen (or testosterone) and ask, do I really want this med? it’s not even a close call, fuck yeah I want that med.

from a hormone perspective - sure a lot is brain chemistry, but there are a 1000 cascading effects of hormone therapy that extend far beyond mental state and in the end what we will likely find is that the “root” cause of transness is not a brain chemical imbalance per se but a few steps deeper to a genetic (not necessarily hereditary) misfiring that impacts nearly every cell in your body. XX and XY are only the very beginning of what sex and gender is and isn’t. From that genetic starting point there are hundreds if not thousands of biological processes that dictate sex and gender.  So in short, transness is likely to prove to be even more foundational than brain chemistry. 

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RomaVicta

RomaVicta 30624

Posted
Posted
On 12/12/2024 at 1:11 PM, safe sex said:

I've mentioned it before, but there is a not insignificant portion of the queer community that would love to dump the Ts, so to speak. I would not be surprised if this starts to take off more.

It's the American Way!

On another front, I still hear nothing about Christian Nationalism on NPR when the professors and geniuses are only interested in discussing the small percentage of voters who switched to Trump. It's a forest for the trees world out there. 

Christian Nationalists hate gays and strong women making their own choices. The movement has turned women against women tapping into very Christ-like fear and hate. 

And just about no discussion of this tidal force in US politics. Christian hate is way outside the lazy template of an increasingly timid Fourth Estate. 

We'll see if they catch on when states, likely led by Texas, pass laws forbidding suspected homosexuals from teaching in public schools or working in pediatrics.

 

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Willfully Horn

Willfully Horn 8284

Posted
Posted
17 hours ago, Anastasis said:

UK made a pretty easy evidence based decision. It was discussed on this thread months ago, but the US medical establishment has gone rogue. 

No,  they made a political decision, which was not supported by the Cass Review. Further, the Cass Review is seriously flawed. This, too, has been discussed upthread.

For instance, the Review is premised on the assumption that expertise in the field of transgender care makes for bias. No where else does this political slant interfere with evaluating medical research.

You are disingenuous, I suspect that is common among narcissists, which is shown in how you misrepresent the Review, and the credence you give the two people, commissioned by Review, from York University, to evaluate the existing evidence on transgender care. These two people in no way say the US medical community has gone rogue. Whether or not those two folks are identified by name, I don’t know. Many of the authors of the Cass Review are unidentified.

Your most egregious misrepresentation if the Cass Review is to claim it supports a ban on medical care for transgendered kids. It does not.

ISpoiler has the details.

Spoiler

 Unfortunately, the Review
repeatedly misuses data and violates its own evidentiary standards by resting many conclusions
on speculation. Many of its statements and the conduct of the York SRs reveal profound
misunderstandings of the evidence base and the clinical issues at hand. The Review also subverts
widely accepted processes for development of clinical recommendations and repeats spurious,
debunked claims about transgender identity and gender dysphoria. These errors conflict with
well-established norms of clinical research and evidence-based healthcare. Further, these errors
raise serious concern about the scientific integrity of critical elements of the report’s process
and recommendations.

 

https://law.yale.edu/sites/default/files/documents/integrity-project_cass-response.pdf

 

 

 

17 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Just leave the kids alone please. 

How about give children the medical care they need. 

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Willfully Horn

Willfully Horn 8284

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 12/14/2024 at 9:59 PM, Dutchrudder said:

Can you imagine if that list of side effects were the limit for approving drugs as "safe"?  We would never see another medicine advertised on TV again in our lives. 

These side effects are no where near the worst side effects that medicines can develop. Think about those medicines for dementia, they are linked to death. Still on the market,

Loss of bone density is more than concerning, I agree. The other side effects are less concerning.

Fwiw, the loss of bone density is more common among patients born male. We ought respect the decision trans women make, for many trans women loss of bone is no impediment to their desired outcome.

 

Edited by Willfully Horn
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Willfully Horn

Willfully Horn 8284

Posted
Posted
17 hours ago, DixonHur said:The tragedy here, as I see it, is not the argument as to whether or not being transgender is a a mental illness, which it likely is, but rather that the term "mental illness" has been weaponized.  

As someone who battles mental illness daily, I find it disheartening that we still live in a world that stigmatizes mental health as being different and/or worse that physical illness.

Can a human being he both mentally ill AND possess all the components of mental wellness? I do not think so, and so I have questions about your post.

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Anastasis

Anastasis 23717

Posted
Posted
27 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

in no way say the US medical community has gone rogue

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/23/science/puberty-blockers-olson-kennedy.html

U.S. Study on Puberty Blockers Goes Unpublished Because of Politics, Doctor Says

The leader of the long-running study said that the drugs did not improve mental health in children with gender distress and that the finding might be weaponized by opponents of the care.

 

 

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Willfully Horn

Willfully Horn 8284

Posted
Posted
15 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/23/science/puberty-blockers-olson-kennedy.html

U.S. Study on Puberty Blockers Goes Unpublished Because of Politics, Doctor Says

The leader of the long-running study said that the drugs did not improve mental health in children with gender distress and that the finding might be weaponized by opponents of the care.

 

 

Again, discussed. The primary obstacle to long term mental health improvement is society, and its antipathy to trans folks. For folks receiving gender affirming care, the short term results, which are documented as very positive, erode from the sand filled winds of societal opprobrium.

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wildcat09

wildcat09 29600

Posted
Posted
On 12/15/2024 at 9:43 AM, Pancho said:

I just don’t get it with radical republicans such as Anastasias when he says leave the children alone. Does he understand what gender affirming care actually is? Does he think doctors are performing surgeries on children?

This was about a different topic, but it's basically the same explanation:

Quote

I think the most charitable take of Ana’s view on this is that he sees them all as whores who deserve that risk, either because they had sex knowing the risk of pregnancy or for those who were raped, because Eve ate the forbidden fruit and now all women are condemned by her.

Of course he’ll pretend that he doesn’t believe anything like that, he’s a special snowflake who holds very artisanal archconservative religious beliefs that don’t align with those of other archconservative religious believers on anything that might be the immediate topic of discussion. He’s like a woke inquisitor, basically.

 

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troph

troph 25247

Posted
Posted (edited)

My cardiologist who is actually a scientist, super curious, runs studies, a Covid expert, the chair of internal medicine at a medical school AND a Christian went on a tirade against culture, morality policing, fascists, Christian nationalists, and his own community for failing my people. Basically said what I said about how XX and XY is just the very very beginning and that sex and gender is a highly complex and ongoing biological process, even cellular process. He said the medical and scientific communities have failed trans people by failing to be curious and to explain to the broader public. He then went on a tirade against Christians saying “we” should have picked up the slack and defended and protected trans people.

This was in response to “I hope it’s ok” when he was treating me for post covid syndrome when I explained why I was on HRT. 

it was also really amazing when he said he had a soft spot for my story (I reached out by email over Thanksgiving and he had me fully tested, diagnosed and in treatment for micro cardiovascular dysfunction within a week!!). He said he found a lot of similarities between us. Both highly driven, successful, people first, choosing a different professional path than what our talent might have allowed (he chooses to run a small independent practice like me instead of being beholden to larger corporate interests). He basically spent 20 mins acknowledging I’m pretty fucking amazing AND trans. 

it was refreshing. 

truthfully, the unwillingness of broader society to allow for trans people to be ordinary, exceptional, even mediocre or worse but it have nothing to do with transness is probably the most distressing part of the whole thing. For most everything is boiled down to “but trans” which is why hiding in plain sight - and the stress that causes - is the only real acceptable path for a semi normal life. It’s fucking stupid. Depressing and bullshit, but my cardiologist did give a glimmer of what could be. Sigh.

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Anastasis

Anastasis 23717

Posted
Posted (edited)

  

20 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

This was about a different topic, but it's basically the same explanation:

 

LOL. I am perfectly happy to let the objective reader go back through this thread and assess which arguments are influenced by metaphysical ideology and unwavering dogmatism, and which are influenced by the principles of evidence-based medicine.

Edited by Anastasis
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Anastasis

Anastasis 23717

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, safe sex said:

Has the French medical establishment gone completely rogue too??! Their version of the Cass report has been published

Damn, did they also suppress the publication of publicly funded research because they didn't like the results?

It's an opinion paper cloaked as a consensus document. Literally the lowest grade of medical evidence.  

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Anastasis

Anastasis 23717

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, royiv said:
11 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Anastasis is a piece of shit.

Who knew that the practice of evidence based medicine was so controversial? None of y'all whined when I was shitting on ivermectin and lobotomies. 

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Willfully Horn

Willfully Horn 8284

Posted
Posted
31 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Biological sciences are hard, apparently. 

When it is included in a political agenda, it is difficult.

The Cass review you promote made the assumption that expertise equated to bias, a novel, and political, decision. Nor was the review evaluated by peers before publication.  I have already linked the Yale critique, which you ignored.

https://law.yale.edu/sites/default/files/documents/integrity-project_cass-response.pdf

The Society for Evidence Based Gender Medicine seem to like what Yale had to say, and here are their comments, which include: “the Cass Review “repeatedly misuses data and violates its own evidentiary standards,” was “rife with misapplications of the scientific method,”

Ah, politics. 

https://segm.org/Cass_Integrity_Project_Yale#:~:text=The paper%2C written by Meredithe,rife with misapplications of the

 

 

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Anastasis

Anastasis 23717

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

When it is included in a political agenda, it is difficult.

The Cass review you promote made the assumption that expertise equated to bias, a novel, and political, decision. Nor was the review evaluated by peers before publication.  I have already linked the Yale critique, which you ignored.

https://law.yale.edu/sites/default/files/documents/integrity-project_cass-response.pdf

The Society for Evidence Based Gender Medicine seem to like what Yale had to say, and here are their comments, which include: “the Cass Review “repeatedly misuses data and violates its own evidentiary standards,” was “rife with misapplications of the scientific method,”

Ah, politics. 

https://segm.org/Cass_Integrity_Project_Yale#:~:text=The paper%2C written by Meredithe,rife with misapplications of the

 

 

What a dolt. I think that everyone should read the link that you just cited. Jesus you are so out of your depth, you just linked a SEGM article and don't even understand their position nor specific argument. You scan like a proof texter. 

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Willfully Horn

Willfully Horn 8284

Posted
Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

What a dolt. I think that everyone should read the link that you just cited. Jesus you are so out of your depth, you just linked a SEGM article and don't even understand their position nor specific argument. You scan like a proof texter. 

Yep. I was wrong about the intent of the SEGM piece.

Our smoked salmon, though, held most of my attention. It turned out great. Mea culpa.

Edited by Willfully Horn
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Anastasis

Anastasis 23717

Posted
Posted
27 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

Yep. I was wrong about the intent of the SEGM piece.

Our smoked salmon, though, held most of my attention. It turned out great. Mea culpa.

You do your cause more harm than good when you get over your skis. Stick to salmon. It's a pretty forgiving piece of fish and doesn't require much precision. 

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Willfully Horn

Willfully Horn 8284

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

You do your cause more harm than good when you get over your skis. Stick to salmon. It's a pretty forgiving piece of fish and doesn't require much precision. 

So pompous.

But, while smoked salmon is a family craving on Christmas, (with Wholly Bagels,) we do eat salmon almost monthly. And, on those circumstances, we consume salmon raw.

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 32106

Posted
Posted
On 12/15/2024 at 10:19 AM, DixonHur said:

I just don't think it's root is physical.

Well, here's the thing on that.  Brain chemistry that isn't quite right is every bit as physical as a pancreas that doesn't work right, or some cells that start to mutate and divide into cancer.

Sure, it's not a broken leg or skull, but there are lots of diseases that involve a malfunctioning body part with no external cause.

So, with the stigma, you're part of the way there, but there's no valid reason to even apply "mental" to the illness.

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