LBGTQ

[Anastasis 23274]

Just now, Sawbonz said:

See above. She never mentions need for high quality evidence. That’s all you. Good luck with that.

I sincerely wish it wasn't. But ideology over methodology seems to be on course to cross the finish line first. 

[Sawbonz 27109]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

I sincerely wish it wasn't. But ideology over methodology seems to be on course to cross the finish line first. 

Except that’s not what’s going on here. Keep saying it though. It seems to be all you have

[Anastasis 23274]

1 minute ago, Sawbonz said:

Except that’s not what’s going on here. Keep saying it though. It seems to be all you have

No, that it is exactly what is going on here.

[Sawbonz 27109]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

No, that it is exactly what is going on here.

There is ideology getting in the way of reasoned thought. It’s just not where you think it is

[Anastasis 23274]

7 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

There is ideology getting in the way of reasoned thought. It’s just not where you think it is

Another tripehorn paraphrase. 

[Sawbonz 27109]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Another tripehorn paraphrase. 

you still haven’t linked a high level study showing pharmacotherapy doesn’t help with gender dysphoria in young people. Does that help you understand the difference?

[Anastasis 23274]

1 minute ago, Sawbonz said:

you still haven’t linked a high level study showing pharmacotherapy doesn’t help with gender dysphoria in young people. Does that help you understand the difference?

Not at all. We are going recursive again, but this is not how any of this works. You have totally confused the role of the null hypothesis. 

[Sawbonz 27109]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

Not at all. We are going recursive again, but this is not how any of this works. You have totally confused the role of the null hypothesis. 

No…

 

You don’t understand clinical practice. And that’s ok I guess. You are not a clinician

Edited February 6, 2023 by Sawbonz

[hayden_horn 11348]

yeesh.

is anyone else masturbating?

keep going yall i'm almost there

[Anastasis 23274]

5 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

You don’t understand clinical practice. And that’s ok I guess. You are not a clinician

Another legit triplehorn paraphrase. Didn't realize that you sawbones and psychs were out on the same evidence island. 

[TwiceHorn 30956]

A big thing here is that a whole lot of this gender dysphoria thing is of a physiopsychological nature, meaning it responds in part to psychotherapy and in part to or with adjunct medical treatment, e.g. prescription of drugs.

Medicine and pharmacology haven't quite worked out the kinks on physiopsychological things, to say the least, so treatment remains to a large degree an heuristic and empirical thing.

And, that seems to mean that we're going to have to trust the expert practitioners to a larger degree than in relation to other conditions.

My experience with addiction has had a huge influence over me in things like this.  First, it has taught me the wide variety of human experience and a larger degree of empathy with same.  Second, if anyone seems a little too "certain" about matters physiopsychological, or even just plain psychological, they're probably wrong.

[safe sex 11621]

We already refer patients to psychotherapy, but with the trans-affirming resources/providers becoming increasingly more rare throughout Texas, most patients are looking at a wait time of 6-10 months. That's just peachy with their mental health.

Hmmm, is Ana actually so intransigent about this issue because almost all of the primary pharmacological treatments used by trans patients are available in generic form? A mystery.

[Anastasis 23274]

29 minutes ago, safe sex said:

Hmmm, is Ana actually so intransigent about this issue because almost all of the primary pharmacological treatments used by trans patients are available in generic form? A mystery.

LOL. I have no relevant potential conflicts of interest to report, particularly not any financial ones. 

Now you? 

 

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by Anastasis

[Willfully Horn 7909]

2 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Not everything is about you Willfully.  But please tell us all more about narcissists. 

Okay. Basic premise is valid. 
 

Have you interacted with others on this thread, whose posts you deemed inaccurate to the point of spreading disinformation? If so, I missed those.

3 hours ago, Anastasis said:

I only had to read the abstract to realize that you are citing a survey study you absolute dolt. 

Again, I admit this isn’t my area of expertise. Surveys, that examine 13,000+ people, and reach the conclusion: “Findings support a relationship between access to GAHT and lower rates of depression and suicidality among transgender and nonbinary youth” are untrustworthy, because?
 

And a layman who doesn’t understand the distinction is an absolute dolt, exactly why? 
 

Your insecurities were obvious to me a long time ago.  Recently, I learned they are indicative of narcissism. I am undisturbed when learning I am wrong, as it is a part of learning, and then attempt to make amends, if necessary. I admit that if I have mischaracterized you, I have done wrong by you. The proof is in your hands. I will carefully consider your explanation as to why I am a dolt.

[Willfully Horn 7909]

In support of folks, who, like myself, read this survey ( which evaluated 13000+ individuals) and assumed it was meeting a higher standard of evaluation that @Anastasis recognizes,) consider these findings:

 

A recent study based on the 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey found that transgender adults who received pubertal blockers as adolescents had significantly lower lifetime suicidal ideation compared to those who desired but did not receive it 
 

The first study followed 47 transgender youth and found that mean levels of suicidality significantly decreased from 1.11 before starting GAHT to .27 when assessed approximately 1 year after beginning GAHT [

[7]]. The second study of 128 transgender youth found small to moderate improvements in self-reported depressive symptoms (d = .44) [

[15]]. The third study examined 50 transgender youth at two 6-month intervals following the start of ExcEpts:

and found significant decreases in depression as measured by the Center for Epidemiologic Studies Depression Scale 

These findings extend previous cross-sectional research conducted with transgender and nonbinary adults and provide support for a significant relationship between access to GAHT and lower depression and suicidality among transgender and nonbinary youth. Among the full sample and those under age 18, receipt of GAHT was associated with significantly lower odds of experiencing symptoms of depression in the previous 2 weeks. Although our study is not able to determine temporal patterns, it is unlikely that many transgender and nonbinary youth began GAHT subsequent to this 2-week time frame. 

 

. High rates of depression, suicidal ideation, and suicide attempts among transgender youth are sometimes used by antitransgender politicians and activists to erroneously suggest that transgender identity is a mental health condition that can be treated through counseling and conversion efforts [

[27]]. These individuals ignore the impacts of gender dysphoria and minority stress [

[28]] and suggest that GAHT is not necessary if transgender youth can be counseled into accepting their sex assigned at birth. The findings of this study demonstrate that GAHT could be a potential mechanism by which mental health and suicide disparities among transgender and nonbinary youth may begin to decrease. Furthermore, existing evidence suggests that regret is low for gender-affirming care interventions, with one study of 55 transgender adults who had received gender-affirming care as adolescents finding that not one experienced regret [

[29]].
 

Unfortunately, efforts to legally restrict gender-affirming care for transgender and nonbinary youth may negatively impact mental health through two separate but linked pathways. The first is by directly prohibiting medication that many of these youth rely on to reduce feelings of gender dysphoria. The second is by increasing minority stress through negative public attention and harmful rhetoric debating the rights of transgender and nonbinary youth to live their lives authentically. As such, efforts to address the mental health of transgender and nonbinary youth must also acknowledge and address the cumulative risk that antitransgender political statements and legislative efforts may have on their well-being.

 

 

Of course, our self proclaimed, and totally not narcissistically motivated, though given to demeaning rhetoric, expert is soon to explain why these medical researchers are only acceptable to dolts as trustworthy sources. 

Edited to point out that the R tactic of fucking shit up and then pointing at fucked up shit to validate their claims is applicable. Just saying.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Willfully Horn

[Willfully Horn 7909]

In hind view, @Anastasis declamations against the poster might detract from the survey’s findings. To whit:

 

A recent study based on the 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey found that transgender adults who received pubertal blockers as adolescents had significantly lower lifetime suicidal ideation compared to those who desired but did not receive it 
 

The first study followed 47 transgender youth and found that mean levels of suicidality significantly decreased from 1.11 before starting GAHT to .27 when assessed approximately 1 year after beginning GAHT [

[7]]. The second study of 128 transgender youth found small to moderate improvements in self-reported depressive symptoms (d = .44) [

[15]]. The third study examined 50 transgender youth at two 6-month intervals following the start of ExcEpts:

and found significant decreases in depression as measured by the Center for Epidemiologic Studies Depression Scale 

These findings extend previous cross-sectional research conducted with transgender and nonbinary adults and provide support for a significant relationship between access to GAHT and lower depression and suicidality among transgender and nonbinary youth. Among the full sample and those under age 18, receipt of GAHT was associated with significantly lower odds of experiencing symptoms of depression in the previous 2 weeks. Although our study is not able to determine temporal patterns, it is unlikely that many transgender and nonbinary youth began GAHT subsequent to this 2-week time frame. 

 

. High rates of depression, suicidal ideation, and suicide attempts among transgender youth are sometimes used by antitransgender politicians and activists to erroneously suggest that transgender identity is a mental health condition that can be treated through counseling and conversion efforts [

[27]]. These individuals ignore the impacts of gender dysphoria and minority stress [

[28]] and suggest that GAHT is not necessary if transgender youth can be counseled into accepting their sex assigned at birth. The findings of this study demonstrate that GAHT could be a potential mechanism by which mental health and suicide disparities among transgender and nonbinary youth may begin to decrease. Furthermore, existing evidence suggests that regret is low for gender-affirming care interventions, with one study of 55 transgender adults who had received gender-affirming care as adolescents finding that not one experienced regret [

[29]].
 

Unfortunately, efforts to legally restrict gender-affirming care for transgender and nonbinary youth may negatively impact mental health through two separate but linked pathways. The first is by directly prohibiting medication that many of these youth rely on to reduce feelings of gender dysphoria. The second is by increasing minority stress through negative public attention and harmful rhetoric debating the rights of transgender and nonbinary youth to live their lives authentically. As such, efforts to address the mental health of transgender and nonbinary youth must also acknowledge and address the cumulative risk that antitransgender political statements and legislative efforts may have on their well-being.

 

 

Of course, our self proclaimed, and totally not narcissistically motivated, though given to demeaning rhetoric, expert is soon to explain why these medical researchers are only acceptable to dolts as trustworthy sources. 
 

 

[wildcat09 29083]

Ana seems to think every other poster on Surly is a triplehorn sock.

[Mole 4318]

5 hours ago, Willfully Horn said:

I will carefully consider your explanation as to why I am a dolt.

Motto-worthy

[troph 24417]

9 hours ago, hayden_horn said:

yeesh.

is anyone else masturbating?

keep going yall i'm almost there

and I give you Kim Petras the first transgender woman to win a Grammy…

German born, lives in LA now, age 30, single puberty, she started psychotherapy at 10, changed her name at 12, can’t tell the medical but she announced she was having surgery when she was 16.  Very well may be the youngest ever to fully transition. 

 

 

I’m not going to assume Ana is a nefarious conservative he said he’s not on this issue. However, with no money in trans research, I can say that for 70+ years the mantra has been “we don’t know” and “more research is needed” and those arguments are not genuine (even if a genuine researcher is opining) - because they are picked up by others who are not compassionate doctors - they are picked up and advanced by gatekeepers and politicians and are used to first block transition of adults which was largely successful for the entire span of the 1950’s until the 2000’s when legal resources finally started allowing legal transitions. Now the frontier is with trans kids and here is their great fear….

it’s not the well-being of trans kids, it’s the normalization of trans identities to the point where life saving treatment can be given early enough so you have a complete healthcare outcome with the intended puberty - one where the gatekeepers and the politicians who want to identify, ostracize, and eliminate cannot do anything because every argument they use against women like me now loses (they generally lose on women like me too but most of us can be outed without our consent so fear tactics work.  This is why we cannot treat trans kids because if we force it into adulthood there is we can better keep tabs on them, we can put up road blocks, we can force them to decide between life / happiness and destroying their lives and on and on. When trans people can have effective treatment allowing them to fully transition and keep their identities to themselves or come out at their choosing, then the trans community will have what it’s sought for the last 70+ years, the right to peacefully coexist.  And that is what they don’t want. 
 

well that and being deathly afraid they accidentally fapped to a trans woman or are found out to have done so. 

Edited February 6, 2023 by troph

[troph 24417]

15 hours ago, Anastasis said:

You cited expert opinion. I responded rightfully, that expert opinion is the lowest grade evidence.  Then you ask me to cite expert opinion.

I am making the arguments that I make in my own words. I am not making arguments that I have not made. 

If you ask me what I would do in the situation where my own young adolescent daughter was experiencing gender dysphoria, I think that I would try the engage the same type of first line treatment that you would in a similar situation. Psychotherapy. I certainly would not jump right in with a gnrh analogue.  Is that where you would go with first line treatment? Cause I doubt it. Could be wrong though. 

Doesn’t matter what a parent wants you can’t jump right into medical treatment.  Even if timelines are compressed because of the age of coming out no child is being ushered straight to blockers and cross sex hormones. if they are the doctor is violating the standard protocols. 
 

by the way if the child is very young you just roll with it and don’t even go to therapy. He wants to wear a dress around the house, ok. She wants to be boy, ok sweetie you can be a boy. And it stays there for a loooong while. 
 

why do people keep perpetuating the idea that the moment a girl climbs trees and says I’m king of the world that she’s getting blockers and T shots the next day? 
 

oh wait, I know. 
 

[DDD Dad 14133]

10 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Another legit triplehorn paraphrase. Didn't realize that you sawbones and psychs were out on the same evidence island. 

[troph 24417]

there isn't no evidence, there is compelling evidence in modern medicine over the last 70 years on these subjects that transition for properly diagnosed gender dysphoria is the best treatment.  This is the case despite a lack of funding, misguided moral prohibitions, politicization,  social stigmatization, and outright discrimination, harassment, and institutional discrimination.  Could the studies done be more robust, yes, but there are probably more than 100 studies now that support this position, and less than a dozen that would support the opposite outcome.  The idea that we have to study whether transition is the proper treatment for properly diagnosed patients with gender dysphoria is nothing more than the continuation of the climate trans people faced in this country and Europe from 1950 through 2000.

As social stigmatization lessens and legal access to transition rights are granted, even while the battle rages, we see even more compelling evidence that transition works.  Medical, social, emotional support all lead to positive outcomes.  Yes some de-transition (why is not always clear), yes some diagnoses are wrong, and yes the more open we are as a society the more children casually play with gender constructs, but the existence of gender dysphoria and the transition as treatment for properly diagnosed gender dysphoria patients is sound.

Questions arise over what path to take, what surgeries to perform, when to perform, how to perform, which surgical methods have the best outcomes, which deliver methods of pharmaceuticals have the best outcome, what are the best methods to diagnose gender dysphoria to prevent excessive gatekeeping (primarily because of the risk of harm being done in the name of morality and politicization, but also to protect from wrongful diagnosis), and more are all open questions.

And if the scientific community is supportive in helping to alleviate pain, then this is where the line is currently drawn. More is always needed to help refine diagnosis and treatment protocols to have more effective transition outcomes for those who suffer from gender dysphoria.  But there is no doubt transition is the proper treatment. If improving diagnosis and treatment protocols under the premise that transition is the preferred treatment is not the purpose of the study, then it's suspect and continuing the systemic and institutional pattern of gatekeeping and discrimination that has always been present.

[wildcat09 29083]

26 minutes ago, troph said:

there isn't no evidence, there is compelling evidence in modern medicine over the last 70 years on these subjects that transition for properly diagnosed gender dysphoria is the best treatment.  This is the case despite a lack of funding, misguided moral prohibitions, politicization,  social stigmatization, and outright discrimination, harassment, and institutional discrimination.  Could the studies done be more robust, yes, but there are probably more than 100 studies now that support this position, and less than a dozen that would support the opposite outcome.  The idea that we have to study whether transition is the proper treatment for properly diagnosed patients with gender dysphoria is nothing more than the continuation of the climate trans people faced in this country and Europe from 1950 through 2000.

As social stigmatization lessens and legal access to transition rights are granted, even while the battle rages, we see even more compelling evidence that transition works.  Medical, social, emotional support all lead to positive outcomes.  Yes some de-transition (why is not always clear), yes some diagnoses are wrong, and yes the more open we are as a society the more children casually play with gender constructs, but the existence of gender dysphoria and the transition as treatment for properly diagnosed gender dysphoria patients is sound.

Questions arise over what path to take, what surgeries to perform, when to perform, how to perform, which surgical methods have the best outcomes, which deliver methods of pharmaceuticals have the best outcome, what are the best methods to diagnose gender dysphoria to prevent excessive gatekeeping (primarily because of the risk of harm being done in the name of morality and politicization, but also to protect from wrongful diagnosis), and more are all open questions.

And if the scientific community is supportive in helping to alleviate pain, then this is where the line is currently drawn. More is always needed to help refine diagnosis and treatment protocols to have more effective transition outcomes for those who suffer from gender dysphoria.  But there is no doubt transition is the proper treatment. If improving diagnosis and treatment protocols under the premise that transition is the preferred treatment is not the purpose of the study, then it's suspect and continuing the systemic and institutional pattern of gatekeeping and discrimination that has always been present.

Hmm, I mean, that's all reasonable and compelling, but Ana is saying the evidence doesn't meet his standards. I'm sure all he's doing is offering his good faith, informed opinion, and not at all trying to create a patina of rationality for why hospitals and doctors that work in this field should be threatened and their research should be destroyed. You know, like the nazis did. 

[elfenix 34153]

https://www.indiewire.com/2023/02/seinfeld-ai-banned-for-being-transphobic-1234806856/

[Anastasis 23274]

 

 

9 hours ago, Willfully Horn said:

In support of folks, who, like myself, read this survey ( which evaluated 13000+ individuals) and assumed it was meeting a higher standard of evaluation that @Anastasis recognizes,) consider these findings:

 

A recent study based on the 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey found...

Of course, our self proclaimed, and totally not narcissistically motivated, though given to demeaning rhetoric, expert is soon to explain why these medical researchers are only acceptable to dolts as trustworthy sources. 

Edited to point out that the R tactic of fucking shit up and then pointing at fucked up shit to validate their claims is applicable. Just saying.

 

You might consider using the plain text paste function in posts.  Just a suggestion.

 

When I was asked earlier what level of evidence would be compelling, I responded well-executed, controlled, observational cohort studies with appropriate statistical analysis plan to account for known confounders, and a further preference for some level of blinding. You are citing here a retrospective analysis of an online survey study that collected self-reported measures from respondents recruited from social media. The latter is, from the perspective of causal inference, at best useful for hypothesis generation, and certainly not hypothesis testing. It is not the trustworthiness of the researchers in question, it is the grade of the evidence and how it can, or cannot, be used appropriately to support causal inference. Maybe a picture will help to illustrate the expanse between what I am describing and what you are citing. 

The study you cite is probably best categorized as background information imo, hypothesis generating. You could argue that it might wedge in just above case series level, but it certainly gets placed no higher than that. What I am describing is wedged between cohort studies and RCTs, the key aspect keeping it out of the RCT grade is the lack of random assignment. The NEJM study linked previously is an uncontrolled cohort study, and I would stage it at the low end of the cohort grade for reasons that have been previously discussed.

You seem to think that any paper you can find that has the glimmer of peer-review can be viewed equally in terms of its evidence grade. This is not the case. That is a determination that people will make based on the study design, the quality of its execution, and the methodology used to analyze the data. It would take quite a bit to unpack strengths and limitations of each of these types of studies, the types of potential bias that may impact the results, and the different techniques that can be used to arrive at a somewhat firm footing with regards to causal inference. That's probably beyond the scope of this discussion, but I hope this posts helps to clarify why your assumption is objectively baseless.

 

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by Anastasis

[Anastasis 23274]

2 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

Hmm, I mean, that's all reasonable and compelling, but Ana is saying the evidence doesn't meet his standards.

These are really not my standards. I didn't invent them. These are the well-accepted standards of evaluating clinical research. 

[troph 24417]

52 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

These are really not my standards. I didn't invent them. These are the well-accepted standards of evaluating clinical research. 

Again, you don’t use calls for more research to stop all treatment after decades of progress unless you are against humane care. You do, however, insist on additional research to improve diagnosis, improve treatments and improve outcomes.  
 

however I suppose a study that lets trans people enter a study and be subjected to the current treatment or a placebo or just psychotherapy or conversion therapy or some alternative and that would arguably be ethical with informed consent, you’d have to allow them to opt out of the study all together and seek standard treatment though to be fully ethical. I’d have no issues with that study but I suspect you’d have no participants. 

Edited February 6, 2023 by troph

[Captainant 27195]

1 hour ago, elfenix said:

https://www.indiewire.com/2023/02/seinfeld-ai-banned-for-being-transphobic-1234806856/

The AI costanza'd itself

Quote

The AI version of Larry David-slash-Jerry Seinfeld says in the stream, “I am actually thinking about doing a bit about how being transgender is actually a mental illness, or about how all liberals are secretly gay and want to impose their will on everyone. Or something about how transgender people are ruining the fabric of society. But no one is laughing, so I am going to stop. Thanks for coming out tonight. See you next time. Where did everybody go?”

It starts to be bigoted, then acknowledges that nobody likes the bigotry and stops, and then gets banned anyway. AI Seinfeld is closer to bullseye than we realized

EDIT: that's actually a fairly informative article with some detail of the failure - chatGPT had some downtime so they failed back to an older model running on a different framework that didn't have any built in moderation tools to filter out the bad results from the AI before they got used and published to twitch

Edited February 6, 2023 by Captainant

[mchookem 15729]

['stache 21724]

This discussion has gone full dumbass. Their arguments are premised on the falsehood that doctors are transitioning minors anytime a parent or child asks for it, while ignoring that it is very rare, and when it happens it is with extensive consultation among professionals, parents, and the child. There's no reason to argue with these people, they want to believe falsehoods. They'll be on this until the bathroom falsehoods make the headlines again. 

Edited February 6, 2023 by 'stache

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

This discussion has gone full dumbass. Their arguments are premised on the falsehood that doctors are transitioning minors anytime a parent or child asks for it, while ignoring that it is very rare, and when it happens it is with extensive consultation among professionals, parents, and the child. There's no reason to argue with these people, they want to believe falsehoods. They'll be on this until the bathroom falsehoods make the headlines again. 

As I mentioned earlier about several of the wannabe aggy on this site. It’s a fool’s errand, though I commend folks for trying…because that is actually being genuine and trying help the situation. But these types of folks won’t change their mind. Despite any evidence. They will say that’s not true, but we know how they operate. Ultimately, it will come down to Jesus.

[troph 24417]

it's a fools errand for most of you, there are more than one of us on this thread where it's personal.  so I'll keep speaking up until I break again and try to leave, then realize reddit sucks ass, insta and fb are putrid and I have no choice but to come back to the worst best place on the internet. fml.

[wildcat09 29083]

2 minutes ago, troph said:

it's a fools errand for most of you, there are more than one of us on this thread where it's personal.  so I'll keep speaking up until I break again and try to leave, then realize reddit sucks ass, insta and fb are putrid and I have no choice but to come back to the worst best place on the internet. fml.

FYI, your input is very much appreciated and I think it has an impact with people who maybe don't speak up about it. My knowledge of trans issues is pretty limited and I don't think I'll ever have anything close to a real understanding of what it's like to be a trans person. I know gender dysphoria is a real thing people suffer from and think that if transition can help them that's fantastic, but I do know plenty of people in my life who are uneasy about the rising visibility of trans people and I sometimes feel like I'm ill equipped to argue in support of trans people in conversations with them.

I tend to see it primarily as "it helps them and doesn't hurt anyone else" and that's enough for me, but it isn't for lots of others, and plenty buy into bullshit propaganda that makes them think it does hurt people (either the "trans people are predators" shit, the "too many later want to detransition" shit, or "the growing prevalence and acceptance of transition fundamentally threatens the social fabric of society" shit).  And for those of us who don't really have an adequate foundation of knowledge on trans issues, it can be challenging to know where to even begin finding real information to help us better understand these issues, given the prevalence of bullshit out there that's even in nominally liberal sources like the New York Times and The Atlantic. I can read some Jesse Singal shit and understand where he's bullshitting because I recognize the tactics, but I often don't really know where to go to get better information.  So you presenting your first-hand experiences and resources is extremely helpful.  

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

I agree and think Troph and anyone else that is LGBT+ should speak out if they do desire. I’m just saying, hell will freeze over before people like Ana, Poe and Dal will change their mind, let alone their vote. I’m sorry, but that isn’t happening. But for those not tethered by party allegiance and feed off hate, yeah, people speaking up is very helpful for others.

[TwiceHorn 30956]

9 hours ago, troph said:

and I give you Kim Petras the first transgender woman to win a Grammy…

German born, lives in LA now, age 30, single puberty, she started psychotherapy at 10, changed her name at 12, can’t tell the medical but she announced she was having surgery when she was 16.  Very well may be the youngest ever to fully transition. 

 

 

I’m not going to assume Ana is a nefarious conservative he said he’s not on this issue. However, with no money in trans research, I can say that for 70+ years the mantra has been “we don’t know” and “more research is needed” and those arguments are not genuine (even if a genuine researcher is opining) - because they are picked up by others who are not compassionate doctors - they are picked up and advanced by gatekeepers and politicians and are used to first block transition of adults which was largely successful for the entire span of the 1950’s until the 2000’s when legal resources finally started allowing legal transitions. Now the frontier is with trans kids and here is their great fear….

it’s not the well-being of trans kids, it’s the normalization of trans identities to the point where life saving treatment can be given early enough so you have a complete healthcare outcome with the intended puberty - one where the gatekeepers and the politicians who want to identify, ostracize, and eliminate cannot do anything because every argument they use against women like me now loses (they generally lose on women like me too but most of us can be outed without our consent so fear tactics work.  This is why we cannot treat trans kids because if we force it into adulthood there is we can better keep tabs on them, we can put up road blocks, we can force them to decide between life / happiness and destroying their lives and on and on. When trans people can have effective treatment allowing them to fully transition and keep their identities to themselves or come out at their choosing, then the trans community will have what it’s sought for the last 70+ years, the right to peacefully coexist.  And that is what they don’t want. 
 

well that and being deathly afraid they accidentally fapped to a trans woman or are found out to have done so. 

Well, ana is clearly involved in pharmacology and clearly involved in preparing, analyzing, or executing the kind of clinical trials and studies that are aimed at proving a drug's efficacy and/or obtaining FDA approval (I'm fairly certain that he does not consider the two to be the same, although they are, ostensibly).

He appears to know more about this than anyone on this board as it seems to be his profession.

So, he's a technocrat on this aspect of this issue, that is, whether there are fully credible clinical trials and studies that support the treatments.

As something of a technocrat myself on other issues, I get it.  I might also submit that due to the psychological component of the condition, such studies are more difficult to execute than drug trials, which is a part of the ongoing debate here that's above most of our pay grades.

So, ana is critical of the studies and trials to date.  That's actually fair.

Willfully and others are bringing up studies and summaries and compilations of those same studies or similar ones, that all are flawed in the way anastasis has articulated and that only medicos or hardcore statisticians can understand.

 

[troph 24417]

3 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Well, ana is clearly involved in pharmacology and clearly involved in preparing, analyzing, or executing the kind of clinical trials and studies that are aimed at proving a drug's efficacy and/or obtaining FDA approval (I'm fairly certain that he does not consider the two to be the same, although they are, ostensibly).

He appears to know more about this than anyone on this board as it seems to be his profession.

So, he's a technocrat on this aspect of this issue, that is, whether there are fully credible clinical trials and studies that support the treatments.

As something of a technocrat myself on other issues, I get it.  I might also submit that due to the psychological component of the condition, such studies are more difficult to execute than drug trials, which is a part of the ongoing debate here that's above most of our pay grades.

So, ana is critical of the studies and trials to date.  That's actually fair.

Willfully and others are bringing up studies and summaries and compilations of those same studies or similar ones, that all are flawed in the way anastasis has articulated and that only medicos or hardcore statisticians can understand.

 

I’ve actually been the most lenient with him among most here the last few days. However, he’s still speaking like the gate keepers and politicians of the last 70 years, his intentions are not likely harmful but his rhetoric and how he views next steps are. Better research is fine, and I’m not necessarily agreeing he’s right, I’m actually playing along and assuming his criticisms are valid. but we do have good authority to continue treatment protocols as they are and we can improve with research. That’s a wholly different approach - using research to improve - rather than saying no treatment at all because we haven’t studied it enough - keeping in mind we are probably decades away from having the kind of research that would satisfying him and that’s if we kicked off a study to his liking today.  Of course this all assumes reasonable intentions and he’s not doing what everyone who is against trans health care has done for 70 years - oppose treatment based on lack of “proper” studies all the while doing nothing to cause such studies to occur. 

[wildcat09 29083]

1 hour ago, Patricio Swayze said:

I agree and think Troph and anyone else that is LGBT+ should speak out if they do desire. I’m just saying, hell will freeze over before people like Ana, Poe and Dal will change their mind, let alone their vote. I’m sorry, but that isn’t happening. But for those not tethered by party allegiance and feed off hate, yeah, people speaking up is very helpful for others.

Yeah, they'll never be convinced. But there's a whole lot of squishy liberalish people who 15 years ago were uneasy about gay people and are now totally supportive of gay marriage but now uneasy about trans people. And there's a whole lot of effective bullshit aimed at convincing them it's a fundamentally different, more dangerous concern to them/society general. I'm sure plenty of them read Troph even if they're not major posters in CR, and we all know plenty of them in our own lives.

I think Troph's posts help us understand and can help us get the squishy types we know to understand and empathize more with trans people, much like NAIU used to help us understand and support gay people. And the more of those people we get to understand, the less we need to worry about the tradcaths who want to turn us into Francoist Spain.

[TwiceHorn 30956]

1 hour ago, wildcat09 said:

FYI, your input is very much appreciated and I think it has an impact with people who maybe don't speak up about it. My knowledge of trans issues is pretty limited and I don't think I'll ever have anything close to a real understanding of what it's like to be a trans person. I know gender dysphoria is a real thing people suffer from and think that if transition can help them that's fantastic, but I do know plenty of people in my life who are uneasy about the rising visibility of trans people and I sometimes feel like I'm ill equipped to argue in support of trans people in conversations with them.

I tend to see it primarily as "it helps them and doesn't hurt anyone else" and that's enough for me, but it isn't for lots of others, and plenty buy into bullshit propaganda that makes them think it does hurt people (either the "trans people are predators" shit, the "too many later want to detransition" shit, or "the growing prevalence and acceptance of transition fundamentally threatens the social fabric of society" shit).  And for those of us who don't really have an adequate foundation of knowledge on trans issues, it can be challenging to know where to even begin finding real information to help us better understand these issues, given the prevalence of bullshit out there that's even in nominally liberal sources like the New York Times and The Atlantic. I can read some Jesse Singal shit and understand where he's bullshitting because I recognize the tactics, but I often don't really know where to go to get better information.  So you presenting your first-hand experiences and resources is extremely helpful.  

Yep, they think that anyone that doesn't have a "standard" sexual orientation or identity is a "pervert" and out to commit depravities on people, most especially children.   And that's counterfactual.  See, e.g, the notion that most child predators are homosexual, which is patently untrue.  It's just another form of prejudice and ignorance directed at "other."

And that plays into the whole "family values" thing where if a relationship isn't a conventional marriage between cis-hetero men and women it is somehow corrupt.

And I have known for a good long while that it's cis-hetero couples in conventional marriages, and a goodly number of singles, that have been the primary folks fucking up society for decades, if not centuries, if not time immemorial.  The fact is that just because "queer" folk of all stripes are more visible and accepted than ever before doesn't mean there are any more of them than there have ever been. They're a relatively small percentage of the population and they've always been there. Their acceptance means they are that much more likely to be the productive solid citizens they've always been.  They just get to be more fabulous about it.

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

Yeah, they'll never be convinced. But there's a whole lot of squishy liberalish people who 15 years ago were uneasy about gay people and are now totally supportive of gay marriage but now uneasy about trans people. And there's a whole lot of effective bullshit aimed at convincing them it's a fundamentally different, more dangerous concern to them/society general. I'm sure plenty of them read Troph even if they're not major posters in CR, and we all know plenty of them in our own lives.
I think Troph's posts help us understand and can help us get the squishy types we know to understand and empathize more with trans people, much like NAIU used to help us understand and support gay people. And the more of those people we get to understand, the less we need to worry about the tradcaths who want to turn us into Francoist Spain.

I agree. I thought I expressed that, but probably not as effectively.

[troph 24417]

17 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yep, they think that anyone that doesn't have a "standard" sexual orientation or identity is a "pervert" and out to commit depravities on people, most especially children.   And that's counterfactual.  See, e.g, the notion that most child predators are homosexual, which is patently untrue.  It's just another form of prejudice and ignorance directed at "other."

And that plays into the whole "family values" thing where if a relationship isn't a conventional marriage between cis-hetero men and women it is somehow corrupt.

And I have known for a good long while that it's cis-hetero couples in conventional marriages, and a goodly number of singles, that have been the primary folks fucking up society for decades, if not centuries, if not time immemorial.  The fact is that just because "queer" folk of all stripes are more visible and accepted than ever before doesn't mean there are any more of them than there have ever been. They're a relatively small percentage of the population and they've always been there. Their acceptance means they are that much more likely to be the productive solid citizens they've always been.  They just get to be more fabulous about it.

For the record missionary position is my favorite so can I please has standard sexuality label? 
 

if not, fabulous is ok too. Kthxbai.

Edited February 7, 2023 by troph

[Anastasis 23274]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Well, ana is clearly involved in pharmacology and clearly involved in preparing, analyzing, or executing the kind of clinical trials and studies that are aimed at proving a drug's efficacy and/or obtaining FDA approval (I'm fairly certain that he does not consider the two to be the same, although they are, ostensibly)

Just to be clear, I am not a trialist and I do not do research that informs drug approval decisions. To the extent that I do regulatory facing work, it is in the post-marketing space and focused on evaluation of drug safety endpoints. My shit won't get your drug approved, but depending on it shakes out, could get you pulled. I have the good fortune of working with some very good methodologists and biostatisticians. They are the ones that work the real magic, not me.   

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

He appears to know more about this than anyone on this board as it seems to be his profession.

I would also moderate this. There are plenty of knowledgeable posters that are capable of engaging with a common understanding the terminology and scientific principles involved. Despite the tit and tat over the last few pages with sawbonz, I greatly respect his ability to engage those discussions. I am certain that there are other less frequent posters or lurkers here capable of engaging in the same exchanges, and many that have a similar if not superior knowledge base. 

But I do appreciate the sentiments in your post. 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Anastasis

[NameAlreadyInUse 5097]

7 hours ago, Patricio Swayze said:

I agree and think Troph and anyone else that is LGBT+ should speak out if they do desire. I’m just saying, hell will freeze over before people like Ana, Poe and Dal will change their mind, let alone their vote. I’m sorry, but that isn’t happening. But for those not tethered by party allegiance and feed off hate, yeah, people speaking up is very helpful for others.

I would counter this.  Most of the people on this thread that have been around since the Hornfans days were at one time against marriage equality for the gays.  I know this, because I was in there every day having conversations with a bunch of people I never thought would change their minds.  But I did it anyway because it was important to me.  Now 99% of the posters on this thread that were posting back then (and who have kept the same usernames) have completely switched.  These same people who were prolific posters on a mostly conservative Hornfans politics board are still here and still posting, while a bunch of dumbasses call them liberal, all because they eventually saw that what they were arguing for was more government while they claimed to be against large government.  They didn't leave their conservative ideology behind, Republicans left conservative ideology behind.  I'm not going to sit here and say that I changed a single mind, but I am going to say that continuing to make the argument in different ways over and over again (with lots of help from near and far along the way from others in the community) absolutely helped some of those people to see a perspective they hadn't considered before, and they made better decisions about their stance based on having that expanded perspective.

So my advice, when your argument is rooted in reason, and is rooted in the freedom of the individual to live their life without government interference, you will find allies here, some of them may be a little slower to the party, but they'll get there.  

[MissingInAction 24688]

On 2/2/2023 at 4:19 PM, mchookem said:

ah...so it's become pretty obvious which posters are in this thread just for the thrill of poking others with a metaphorical stick.

 

"Pegging" , is the preferred nomenclature.

[atomheartbevo 89285]

They don’t even try and hide how fucking evil and awful they are.  They didn’t vote on it just yet, but the fact that it has a lot of support is really bad.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/montana-bill-allow-students-misgender-235146957.html
 

Quote

Montana schools would not be able to punish students who purposely misgender or deadname their transgender peers under a Republican-backed legislative proposal that opponents argue will increase bullying of children who are already struggling for acceptance.

The proposal, co-sponsored by more than two dozen GOP lawmakers, would declare that it’s not discrimination to use a transgender classmate’s legal name or refer to them by their birth gender. Schools would be prevented from adopting policies to punish students who do so.

Quote

It comes amid a wave of legislation this year in Montana and other conservative states seeking to limit or ban gender-affirming medical care for transgender youth. Montana's Senate passed a ban on gender-affirming medical care or surgery for minors on Wednesday.

But the proposal on misgendering and deadnaming is apparently the only existing legislation of its kind in the country this year, said Olivia Hunt, policy director for the National Center for Transgender Equity.

Quote

“This would make Montana unique in enshrining the right to be bigoted toward or the right to bully trans children in the state code,” Hunt said.

The proposal would not apply to teachers, but some states are considering bills that would protect teachers’ rights to refer to students by their birth names and gender.

Quote

The main sponsor, Rep. Brandon Ler, said Wednesday during a hearing that his children, who live on a farm and ranch, “have learned from a very young age that cows are cows and bulls are bulls” and it's not open for interpretation.

“Children should not be forced to call somebody something they’re not,” Ler said.

I don’t know Brandon, we have to call Raphael Cruz “Ted” and Dannie Goeb “Dan Patrick”.

Quote

During his testimony against the bill, Montana Pride President Kevin Hamm intentionally misgendered Laszloffy and a male lawmaker who had earlier sought to block opposition arguments that the bill would lead to bullying. Hamm said he wanted to hear “her” reasoning on that.

“Does she feel that misgendering isn't a bullying tactic?" Hamm asked. At that point, Rep. Amy Regier, chair of the House Judiciary Committee, interrupted, saying: "Please don't attack other testimony." “Oh, I'm sorry,” Hamm retorted. “Is it a bullying and an attack? So you do understand what this bill will do. Thank you for proving my point. Don't enshrine a tool for bullying into the law.”

[mchookem 15729]

man, those educated coastal elites are really fucking up Montana! 🙄

[Poe It Up 126]

2 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

They don’t even try and hide how fucking evil and awful they are.  They didn’t vote on it just yet, but the fact that it has a lot of support is really bad.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/montana-bill-allow-students-misgender-235146957.html
 

I don’t know Brandon, we have to call Raphael Cruz “Ted” and Dannie Goeb “Dan Patrick”.

They passed a bill that prohibits children from having surgeries, that’s awesome. They should’ve taken the win and moved along, this just makes it unnecessarily messy. 

[wildcat09 29083]

His party encourages it, so I'm going to start calling Poe pigfucker on every thread.

[David Dennison 18315]

42 minutes ago, Poe It Up said:

They passed a bill that prohibits children from having surgeries, that’s awesome. They should’ve taken the win and moved along, this just makes it unnecessarily messy. 

Yet another example of the Republican Party making life more difficult for the poor and middle class.

[MissingInAction 24688]

2 hours ago, Poe It Up said:

They passed a bill that prohibits children from having surgeries, that’s awesome. They should’ve taken the win and moved along, this just makes it unnecessarily messy. 

You know nothing, pig fucker.

[safe sex 11621]

This is not the first time that this has happened to us, but over this past week, I've had multiple pharmacies refuse to fill hormone prescriptions for legal adult patients who see us through telemedicine.

These patients are adults, they have given informed consent, and there is no legal reason for them to be denied their medication. But the pharmacist feels icky. Some are mom and pop pharmacies and some are chains. 

The latest bullshit excuse I was given is that a controlled substance (testosterone) must be prescribed by a physician who sees the patient in the same city that both the clinic and the pharmacy are located, and the patient must live in the same city as well. That is patently bullshit.