The Border

[Guest]

One issue that is red meat for one side, but seems like doesn't get much play from the current administration: the border. 

Unlike culture war bullshit, I think this is a real issue that deserves attention. There's no arguing that a lot of people are coming over, and it's a major humanitarian issue. What can be done? 

[South Austin 52521]

Isn’t Mexico paying for a wall?

[Snake Diggity 4625]

We should be letting in anyone who is under 40 years old and is willing to get documented.  We need the workers.  It’s not desperate yet, but it will be.  From Brownsville to San Diego, there should be well staffed, well funded immigration offices processing people to quickly safely get them documented and set up with work and housing.

But also, and this will be less popular in this forum, the border patrol should be fully empowered to enforce the law.  Anyone caught trying to cross the border illegally should be punished harshly.  But of course that would only be justified if we made it much much easier to come over legally.

I also think we need to try to work a deal to get Mexico to enforce their own southern border.

[Biff Tannen 45694]

1 hour ago, Snake Diggity said:

I also think we need to try to work a deal to get Mexico to enforce their own southern border.

Your lips to Biden's ears.

https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/presidents-us-mexico-meet-after-summit-tensions-2022-07-12/

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

Step 1: End the “war on drugs” and defund the DEA. Use all the money earmarked for the war on drugs for education, treatment and immigration.

[chainsaw 9872]

These statistics are easily juked to push narratives and agendas.

People are forgetting that "apprehensions" increased as a foreseeable and natural consequence of Title 42, which shut down the normal ports of entry because of Covid. If they can't enter through normal ports, they will enter wherever else they can.

Anyway, as long as they don't have Covid or a criminal record, I don't care about this and neither should you. Even if they have Covid, as long as they quarantine until they are recovered, I don't mind.

Tim Ryan said in a debate back when he was running against Joe Biden and Elizabeth Warren that he preferred if they ring the doorbell on the way in. I agree with that. Let's re-open Ellis Island and set up a way to keep track of these people. Most of them are going to come in the easy way, if we make an easy way. The sick ones can be placed in quarantine the same way other countries do for us.

As others have already posted, we can definitely use the boost in labor.

 

[Biff Tannen 45694]

8 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Let's re-open Ellis Island and set up a way to keep track of these people. Most of them are going to come in the easy way, if we make an easy way. The sick ones can be placed in quarantine the same way other countries do for us.

I would absolutely be down for this, but Rs are not trying to let people in easily.  Much like abortion, they use the border as a fear mongering issue to get their voters to vote.  If they fix it, they will have one less reason for their moron base to vote.

[chainsaw 9872]

5 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

I would absolutely be down for this, but Rs are not trying to let people in easily.  Much like abortion, they use the border as a fear mongering issue to get their voters to vote.  If they fix it, they will have one less reason for their moron base to vote.

Fuck the Rs.

[Biff Tannen 45694]

6 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Fuck the Rs.

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11669]

no one can agree on the goals, which makes implementation dumb.  for some, supply of labor is needed.  for some, protection of lily white genes is needed.  for some, population density needs to be kept low because of malthusian fears.  for some, humanitarian thoughts are number 1.

[Goredho 17412]

I grew up on the border, in the 70s and 80s.  People weren’t all worked up over illegal immigrants back then.  Now, everyone I grew up with is all in a tizzy over the border crisis.  I haven’t been back “home” in a long time, so maybe there is something new and horrible happening that I am just ignorant of, but I suspect it has a lot to do with Hispanics having taken over the local politics in the past 2-3 decades.  They were just starting to win elections against the old white ranchers when I left for college.

[chainsaw 9872]

4 minutes ago, Goredho said:

I grew up on the border, in the 70s and 80s.  People weren’t all worked up over illegal immigrants back then.  Now, everyone I grew up with is all in a tizzy over the border crisis.  I haven’t been back “home” in a long time, so maybe there is something new and horrible happening that I am just ignorant of, but I suspect it has a lot to do with Hispanics having taken over the local politics in the past 2-3 decades.  They were just starting to win elections against the old white ranchers when I left for college.

It definitely feels like racial anxiety, but it's signal boosted by Fox News, AM talk radio, and the loonies on social media and bankrolled by the worst scum on the planet.

[Hookah Horns 3083]

15 minutes ago, BehoId, The Underminer! said:

no one can agree on the goals, which makes implementation dumb.  for some, supply of labor is needed.  for some, protection of lily white genes is needed.  for some, population density needs to be kept low because of malthusian fears.  for some, humanitarian thoughts are number 1.

Yep. Nothing of substance will ever get solved as a result. The Rs will bash Ds for "open borders" despite not putting forward a workable plan of their own ad infinitum.

[Hookah Horns 3083]

9 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

It definitely feels like racial anxiety, but it's signal boosted by Fox News, AM talk radio, and the loonies on social media and bankrolled by the worst scum on the planet.

This. In the 70s and 80s there was no Tucker Carlson on every racist's TV every night.

[chainsaw 9872]

4 minutes ago, Hookah Horns said:

Yep. Nothing of substance will ever get solved as a result. The Rs will bash Ds for "open borders" despite not putting forward a workable plan of their own ad infinitum.

Dark Brandon should actually open the border, then when the right loses their mind he should hold a presser asking them if they preferred the "open border" from before

Edited August 22, 2022 by chainsaw
typo

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11669]

2 hours ago, Snake Diggity said:

We should be letting in anyone who is under 40 years old and is willing to get documented.  We need the workers.

even a position like this is controversial.  the labor class doesn't want to compete against cheap labor.

[gmr548 16588]

We should be letting in anyone who is under 40 years old and is willing to get documented.  We need the workers.  It’s not desperate yet, but it will be.  From Brownsville to San Diego, there should be well staffed, well funded immigration offices processing people to quickly safely get them documented and set up with work and housing.
But also, and this will be less popular in this forum, the border patrol should be fully empowered to enforce the law.  Anyone caught trying to cross the border illegally should be punished harshly.  But of course that would only be justified if we made it much much easier to come over legally.
I also think we need to try to work a deal to get Mexico to enforce their own southern border.

I’m not usually a silver bullet guy, but it’s hard to see how a simple guest worker program doesn’t largely solve most of the problems with the immigration system.

[Eskimohorn 5639]

We should be letting in anyone who is under 40 years old and is willing to get documented.  We need the workers.  It’s not desperate yet, but it will be.  From Brownsville to San Diego, there should be well staffed, well funded immigration offices processing people to quickly safely get them documented and set up with work and housing.
But also, and this will be less popular in this forum, the border patrol should be fully empowered to enforce the law.  Anyone caught trying to cross the border illegally should be punished harshly.  But of course that would only be justified if we made it much much easier to come over legally.
I also think we need to try to work a deal to get Mexico to enforce their own southern border.

Harshly punishing anyone crossing? Would that include more incarceration? We already have the highest number of people incarcerated (officially anyway). This doesnt seem like a bright idea, especially given that its targeting people from other countries who have no social contract or say in our laws. And who are highly motivated and already putting their lives on the line.

Also, relying on Mexico doesnt seem like a good solution either, though its viable.

A guest worker program you outlined is a good idea but is DOA in Congress. W suggested it 20 years ago and was obliterated by his own party.

It comes down to a list of bad ideas. In this environment, where a foreigner controls a good part of our media, where central and south american republics are dysfunctional, where congress cant pass legislation and where our own people have insatiable appetite for drugs, we can only pick from a list of bad ideas with respect to border security.

Southern border security is way down the list for me. It is a symptom of other, deeper issues. Depoliticizing it would be a good step. Letting security, legal and humanitarian professionals outline what they need is a good start.

[TexArcher 37989]

2 hours ago, Snake Diggity said:

We should be letting in anyone who is under 40 years old and is willing to get documented.  We need the workers.  It’s not desperate yet, but it will be.  From Brownsville to San Diego, there should be well staffed, well funded immigration offices processing people to quickly safely get them documented and set up with work and housing.

But also, and this will be less popular in this forum, the border patrol should be fully empowered to enforce the law.  Anyone caught trying to cross the border illegally should be punished harshly.  But of course that would only be justified if we made it much much easier to come over legally.

I also think we need to try to work a deal to get Mexico to enforce their own southern border.

Agree with all of this.

There are plenty of people who are willing to come here and do the manual labor and pay taxes.  We should welcome them, with the collective understanding that immigrants built this country and immigration is generally a good thing.

And yes, we should restrict that to legal immigration and we should enforce the border (not with a wall).  We need to stop the flow of narcotics while still letting in the people who want to make an honest living and a better life for their kids.  If we're not doing that, then this isn't America anymore.

[chainsaw 9872]

4 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

We need to stop the flow of narcotics while still letting in the people who want to make an honest living and a better life for their kids.  If we're not doing that, then this isn't America anymore.

To me this is a different issue. Are we getting good ROI from the DEA's cat-and-mouse games? I am skeptical but also don't know enough to form a strong opinion about whether it's a good use of our tax dollars. Nobody has ever called the war on drugs a resounding success.

[TexArcher 37989]

3 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

To me this is a different issue. Are we getting good ROI from the DEA's cat-and-mouse games? I am skeptical but also don't know enough to form a strong opinion about whether it's a good use of our tax dollars. Nobody has ever called the war on drugs a resounding success.

Well, when I think WoD, I think of mostly black and brown kids in prison for bags of weed, which is a horrible thing on a bunch of levels.

But there is a flow of massive amounts of narcotics across the southern border that gives an awful lot of power, money, and guns to gangs, and so on.  That needs to be stopped.  I don't know how to do it, but there has to be a way to secure our border that lets us be in charge of who and what come in.

[chainsaw 9872]

The power and money can be addressed here, whenever someone gets too powerful or too rich. It's hard to hide that.

The guns come from here, and also could be addressed here if we had the political will to do so.

I don't think we should be impeding legal immigration because we're so afraid of the illicit importation of narcotics.

[TexArcher 37989]

1 minute ago, chainsaw said:

I don't think we should be impeding legal immigration because we're so afraid of the illicit importation of narcotics.

Agreed.  What I'm saying is that it shouldn't be an either/or choice.

 

[RDCanecutter 26454]

If we station Sarmatian horsemen to patrol a line of forts, that should keep the Picts out.

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

The DEA and CIA have been actively destabilizing Latina American countries for decades. If y’all don’t think that has anything to do with how shitty some Latina American countries are and how that correlates to immigration, then that is on you.

[pacman 7359]

Fix immigration policy

Prosecute those who commonly employ illegal immigrants to save money

Assist in building economies of Southern Central America

All could be done at a fraction of the cost of GOP suggested remedies

Edited August 22, 2022 by pacman

[Incredulity 11678]

The Administration has taken swift action to solve the border crisis, including placing in charge one of the most competent politicians of the last half century.  Any other analysis is completely racist.

 

Border Czar Kamala Harris

[David Dennison 18938]

1 hour ago, TexArcher said:

Well, when I think WoD, I think of mostly black and brown kids in prison for bags of weed, which is a horrible thing on a bunch of levels.

But there is a flow of massive amounts of narcotics across the southern border that gives an awful lot of power, money, and guns to gangs, and so on.  That needs to be stopped.  I don't know how to do it, but there has to be a way to secure our border that lets us be in charge of who and what come in.

End prohibition.

[chainsaw 9872]

1 minute ago, Incredulity said:

The Administration has taken swift action to solve the border crisis, including placing in charge one of the most competent politicians of the last half century.  Any other analysis is completely racist.

 

Border Czar Kamala Harris

 

[Incredulity 11678]

But, but, but,.. Trump thread is

 

Here:

 

 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Incredulity

[aggie08 21505]

6 minutes ago, pacman said:

Prosecute those who commonly employ illegal immigrants to save money

And cut into profit margins??? Politicians don't want a real solution; they want to continue to politicize it for their voters while cashing checks from corporations who make a fortune off the back of illegal labor.

[pacman 7359]

One thing is for certain, hyperpartisanship will only reinforce the status quo of ineffective governance of immigration by our American Congress.

[Mo Horn 8852]

Quote

There are plenty of people who are willing to come here and do the manual labor and pay taxes.  We should welcome them, with the collective understanding that immigrants built this country and immigration is generally a good thing.

You mean they aren't coming to steal my professional job that requires a college degree and multiple years of experience? That's not what Fox News said. I mean, they wouldn't lie to me; they're a national news organization and are on TV and all. 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Mo Horn

[chainsaw 9872]

Just now, Mo Horn said:

You mean they are coming to steal my professional job that requires a college degree and multiple years of experience? That's not what Fox News said. I mean, they wouldn't lie to me; they're a national news organization and are on TV and all. 

They're going with the replacement theory. Latinos are going to vote Democrat which is bad, but also Latinos are walking away from the Democrat party.

[Brisketexan 105161]

48 minutes ago, pacman said:

Fix immigration policy

Prosecute those who commonly employ illegal immigrants to save money

Assist in building economies of Southern Central America

All could be done at a fraction of the cost of GOP suggested remedies

It's not any more complicated than that.

Who will oppose every single one of those steps, to the death?  That's right, the same GQP that says the border is A CRISIS!

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11669]

59 minutes ago, pacman said:

Fix immigration policy

 

9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

It's not any more complicated than that.

looks like we are done here, folks.

[Sawbonz 27580]

This is one issue that truly is a both sides problem. The Democrats do not want to budge on path to citizenship for all despite whether they jumped the line or not. Other than for dreamers, the majority of people are not for this. 
 

We should have guest worker reciprocity with Mexico that has nothing to do with path to citizenship. Central Americans should be able to apply for amnesty based on economic distress, and be eligible for guest worker status as well. If you can pass a background check and want to work come on.
 

If you want to become a citizen, that’s fine but you have to go through same process as everyone else, and if you cheated to get here you go to the back of the citizenship line

 

Also neither side is interested in heavy fines and or jail time for industries that abuse the immigrant workers and perpetuate the demand

[Brisketexan 105161]

22 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

This is one issue that truly is a both sides problem. The Democrats do not want to budge on path to citizenship for all despite whether they jumped the line or not. Other than for dreamers, the majority of people are not for this. 

Unless you've got some source about Dem platforms that I'm unaware of, that's not true.  There's a CONCEPTION that's it's true, which has been perpetuated by the same sources you would suspect, but I am not aware of actual concerted opposition by Democrats to things like a guest worker program that is a guest worker program only, and doesn't create any special path to citizenship other than the one that already exists.

[chainsaw 9872]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Unless you've got some source about Dem platforms that I'm unaware of, that's not true.  There's a CONCEPTION that's it's true, which has been perpetuated by the same sources you would suspect, but I am not aware of actual concerted opposition by Democrats to things like a guest worker program that is a guest worker program only, and doesn't create any special path to citizenship other than the one that already exists.

some of the biggest border hawks are dems. this is just wrong

[Sawbonz 27580]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Unless you've got some source about Dem platforms that I'm unaware of, that's not true.  There's a CONCEPTION that's it's true, which has been perpetuated by the same sources you would suspect, but I am not aware of actual concerted opposition by Democrats to things like a guest worker program that is a guest worker program only, and doesn't create any special path to citizenship other than the one that already exists.

Well, since they are currently the party in power in both houses and the executive branch and no one has proposed such a thing, it’s hard to think they are for it. This has been my number one issue going back to pre-9/11, so I have followed it pretty closely over the years.  In the past, when the Republicans weren’t Insane and immigration reform was on the table, most of the rhetoric from the Democratic side was that reform without amnesty and citizenship was a nonstarter. It may be different now

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11669]

16 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Unless you've got some source about Dem platforms that I'm unaware of, that's not true.  There's a CONCEPTION that's it's true, which has been perpetuated by the same sources you would suspect, but I am not aware of actual concerted opposition by Democrats to things like a guest worker program that is a guest worker program only, and doesn't create any special path to citizenship other than the one that already exists.

it's because it is a legitimate thorny issue.  this is the one thing these days that isn't reduceable to comic book themes.  there are a ton of problems with increased immigration.  there are a ton of problems with decreased immigration.  there are a ton of problems with the status quo.  

[Brisketexan 105161]

34 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Well, since they are currently the party in power in both houses and the executive branch and no one has proposed such a thing, it’s hard to think they are for it. This has been my number one issue going back to pre-9/11, so I have followed it pretty closely over the years.  In the past, when the Republicans weren’t Insane and immigration reform was on the table, most of the rhetoric from the Democratic side was that reform without amnesty and citizenship was a nonstarter. It may be different now

You're not wrong in that some of the blame for historic failures to reform immigration rests at the feet of dems back in the day.

I've said it before on here, but the last sane, humane, and common sense approach to immigration reform and a path forward was that of.......president George W. Bush.  And he got crushed for it.  Mostly from the right, but also from the left (which tells you it was probably a pretty fucking good idea).

You're not seeing any proposal for immigration reform from the Dems these days because what's the fucking point?  Anything other than a wall, machine gun nests every 50 feet, and slaughtering every brown person who dips a toe in the Rio Grande will be called OPEN BORDERS! on Fox and every conservative outlet for a year, without the spittle-flinging "anchors" pausing to take a breath.  There is no path to immigration reform so long as the current incarnation of the GQP exists.

[elfenix 34330]

 

46 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Unless you've got some source about Dem platforms that I'm unaware of, that's not true.  There's a CONCEPTION that's it's true, which has been perpetuated by the same sources you would suspect, but I am not aware of actual concerted opposition by Democrats to things like a guest worker program that is a guest worker program only, and doesn't create any special path to citizenship other than the one that already exists.

Quote

Democrats believe it is long past time to provide a roadmap to citizenship for the millions of undocumented workers, caregivers, students, and children who are an essential part of our economy and of the fabric of our nation. We will fast-track this process for those workers who have been essential to the pandemic response and recovery efforts, including health care workers, farmworkers, and others. We will also eliminate unfair barriers to naturalization, reduce application backlogs, and make our immigration processes faster, more efficient, and less costly. These reforms will strengthen our communities, our families, our economy, and our country. Democrats oppose President Trump’s illegal, chaotic, and reckless changes to the legal immigration system, including decisions to slash family-based immigration as well as H-1B and other visa programs that can help our economy.

The party platform pretty much suggests what.the doc said, though they also want to make the line work better (or maybe eliminate it entirely) and there's no detail as to what a roadmap to citizenship is, so it's hard to say what effect line jumping might have.

[WhatTheBuck 28793]

5 hours ago, BehoId, The Underminer! said:

no one can agree on the goals, which makes implementation dumb.  for some, supply of labor is needed.  for some, protection of lily white genes is needed.  for some, population density needs to be kept low because of malthusian fears.  for some, humanitarian thoughts are number 1.

In a way, all of us have an El Guapo to face someday...

[Satchel 6938]

Let’s not forget that under Obama the Senate passed a comprehensive bill that would provide a path to legal status for the millions of long-term undocumented immigrants while also strengthening border security. 
 

The legislation supported by all Senate Democrats and 14 Republicans  required immigrants illegally living in the country to register with the government, pay a penalty, learn English and begin the process of applying for legal status. It also had the backing of the business community, organized labor and religious organizations.

House Republicans, however, refused to consider the Senate bill, which Obama and Democrats believed would pass if put to a vote.

[WhatTheBuck 28793]

Back in 2010, on The Colbert Report, Stephen Colbert did a bit on the United Farm Workers’ “Take our jobs, please” campaign where they encouraged Americans who believed immigrants were stealing their jobs to come do the work themselves. It was in two parts.

Part 1:
https://www.cc.com/video/xr7q4y/the-colbert-report-fallback-position-migrant-worker-pt-1

Part 2 should play automatically in the link above, but if it doesn’t:
https://www.cc.com/video/puxqvp/the-colbert-report-fallback-position-migrant-worker-pt-2

Then Stephen went and testified, in character, before Congress:

 

[Biff Tannen 45694]

Dana Bash in the background there?

[WhatTheBuck 28793]

9 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Dana Bash in the background there?

Yep. 

[TexasEd 8067]

Was that also Steve Kornacki behind him?

[The Ace of Aces 5192]

1) the “border” has been a “problem” for 30 years - somehow ignored when Rs are in power (except locally in Texas of course which has had Rs in power the entire time and done fuck all to solve any issues)

2) we NEED immigrants badly to fill positions lazy-ass Americans won’t take 

3) There was likely the best option ever passed around 2010 but the House R caucus that became the Tea Party killed it. Rs have no answers for immigration except every one is a murdering fire-breathing devil-worshipping commie.