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the invention of God

Orca of Peace

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Orca of Peace

Orca of Peace 109

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probably thousands of books on this topic, TLDR all of them, here is a concise article showing how desert tribal politics 2500-3000 years ago affected tens of billions of people over the next 3 thousand years. 

https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/.premium.MAGAZINE-how-the-jews-invented-god-and-made-him-great-1.5392677

Decades of research into the birth and evolution of the Yhwh cult are summarized in “The Invention of God,” a recent book by Thomas Römer, a world-renowned expert in the Hebrew Bible and professor at the College de France and the University of Lausanne. Römer, who held a series of conferences at Tel Aviv University last month, spoke to Haaretz about the subject.

In any case, many scholars agree that Yhwh became the main god of the Jews only after the destruction of the kingdom of Israel by the Assyrians, around 720 BCE.

edit -- the original link worked when i first posted, but now is "premium" . I guess God works in mysterious ways. By luck , found this complete one below. 

https://mysteriousearth.net/2016/06/13/how-the-jews-invented-god-and-made-him-great/

 

also please no " the Jews did this" gif 

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Viper

Viper 12109

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It's really interesting to study how Yahweh started out as one of the sons of El the head of the Canaanite pantheon (Elohim) and the personal deity of the proto-Israeli tribes and then later evolved to merge with El, and then to become the only God. There's some good answers I've read on quora that go into this. I'll see if I can find them.

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Orca of Peace

Orca of Peace 109

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the freakish lesson in all of this --- a few tribal elders decided to merge a few gods into one to unify a migrant community, probaby the entire community was 10k-30k at most.. and this blew up for 3000 years and affected maybe 20 billion humans who have lived in that time span. The word AWESOME is often overused but not in this study. 

 

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Doc Reeves

Doc Reeves 6434

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26 minutes ago, Viper said:

It's really interesting to study how Yahweh started out as one of the sons of El the head of the Canaanite pantheon (Elohim) and the personal deity of the proto-Israeli tribes and then later evolved to merge with El, and then to become the only God. There's some good answers I've read on quora that go into this. I'll see if I can find them.

One of the hallmarks (and imo one of the most beautiful) of early Christianity was the notion the one true God wanted you to discover him. It allowed and even fostered the absorption and expansion of many differing philosophies because those individual prices of truth were in effect a road map to the divine. 

I think one of mankind’s greatest philosophical accomplishments is the development of early Christianity. 

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Viper

Viper 12109

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Here's what I was looking for. It's only part of a much longer answer so click the link if you're interested.

https://www.quora.com/Do-we-have-extra-biblical-evidence-for-the-origins-of-the-Israelites

Quote

The Canaanite origin of the Israelites:

There is overwhelming archaeological and written evidence that, rather than being outsiders from Mesopotamia who later became the Israelites, the Israelites were part of the pre-existing Bronze Age population of Canaan and that they have simply emerged out of the local population. The evidence for this is in the history of Canaan, the Canaanite language, the Canaanite religion, archaeology, and in comparing the language, religion and culture of the Canaanites with that of the Israelites. I will discuss this in more detail below.

The political landscape of Canaan:

Throughout the Bronze Age, up to the 12th century BCE, the land of Canaan contained a number of city states, some of which are indicated in the image below. The entire Canaan (the area coloured pink in the image) was under Egyptian control, but the different city states were allowed considerable self-government, each with its local Canaanite king (a petty king).

main-qimg-20cc85542176cc180a6d56b91cdeb92f.webp

Image source: Canaan Map

One of these Canaanite city states was the coastal city of Ugarit in northern Canaan (modern Ras Sharma in Syria). Ugarit was a Canaanite centre of wealth and commerce. The city was destroyed around 1200 BCE, probably by the Sea Peoples, during the Bronze Age collapse. Two libraries of clay tablets, called the Ugarit texts, were discovered during the 1920s in the ruins of the city of Ugarit. It gives us a very good description of the Canaanite language, religion and culture.

The Canaanite language:

The Canaanite language (called Ugaritic by scholars) is an older language by a few centuries than the language which we know as biblical Hebrew, but it is not a different language. Ugaritic is an older version of biblical Hebrew, much like Shakespearean English is an older version of modern English. Just like modern English has evolved from Shakespearean English, the Hebrew language used in the Bible, which was written centuries after the destruction of Ugarit, has evolved from the language used in the Ugaritic texts.

The Canaanite religion:

The Ugarit texts describe a rich mythology that has evolved from earlier Mesopotamian polytheism. The Canaanite religion itself was also polytheistic. They had a pantheon of gods, called the Elohim (meaning "children of El"), consisting of four tiers:

  • The sky god El and his wife Asherah in the first tier, at the head of the pantheon:
    • El is also known as El Elyon, meaning "Most High of all the gods". El is the creator god, the father of all other gods and humans. He is also the god of wisdom and a good-natured, beneficent being.
    • Asherah/Athirat, El's consort or wife, and the mother of the seventy gods.
  • Seventy gods in the second tier. They are the children of El and Asherah, including:
    • Ba'al, the storm and rain god. Ba'al's position is elevated over that of his siblings and he shares some of the functions of his father El in presiding over the pantheon. Ba’al is the husband of the earth, and he brings fertility and impregnates the earth with rain. He also protects humanity against the destructive forces of nature, for example the sea god Yamm.
    • Anat, the goddess of love, war and hunting.
    • Mot, the god of death, burning and pestilence, and ruler of the Underworld.
    • Yamm, the god of the sea, and Ba'al's enemy.
  • Crafts-deities in the third tier.
  • Minor deities in the fourth tier.

The Israelite religion:

The origins of the Israelite religion in Canaanite polytheism is clear from archaeology and from a close comparison of the Ugarit texts with the earliest Hebrew texts of the Bible, as well as other texts, for example the book of 1 Enoch. It shows that the early Israelite beliefs involved a three-tiered pantheon, essentially the same as the Canaanite four-tiered pantheon, but with the roles of the two middle tiers collapsed into one.

There is plenty of evidence that the Israelite religion started out as the general Canaanite polytheistic religion and that it gradually evolved into monolatry and henotheism, and finally into monotheism:

  • Polytheism: acknowledging the existence of many gods and worshipping many of them.
  • Henotheism: acknowledging the existence of many gods, worshipping only one of them, but allowing other people to worship other gods.
  • Monolatry: acknowledging the existence of other gods, worshipping only one of them, and prohibiting the worship of other gods.
  • Monotheism: worshipping only one god and denying the existence of other gods.

Polytheism in the ancient Israelite beliefs:

There is evidence (biblical and archaeological) that the early Israelites have worshipped El and his wife Asherah, as well as other gods in the pantheon, for example the storm and rain god Ba'al.

Yahweh, the ancient Hebrew war god, started out as one of the sons of El, the Most High. Yahweh does not feature in the Canaanite pantheon of the Ugarit texts, but he was a later Israelite addition to the pantheon.

For example, have a look at this Bible passage from the ancient Dead Scrolls:

When Elyon divided the nations, when he separated the sons of Adam, he established the borders of the nations according to the number of the sons of the gods. Yahweh’s portion was his people, [Israel] his allotted inheritance.

- Deuteronomy 32:8–9 (Dead Sea Scrolls)

As mentioned previously, in the Canaanite religion the head god El’s full name was El Elyon (“the Most High of all the gods”). He and his wife Asherah was at the head of the pantheon called the Elohim (meaning “children of El”), with the other gods in the second tier as the sons of the gods El and Asherah.

So, the above passage in the Dead Sea Scrolls refers to El dividing all humans into 70 nations, giving his son Yahweh the nation of Israel as inheritance. This corresponds with the 70 nations that emerged after the flood in the Noah narrative in Genesis. It is also consistent with the notion in the other ANE polytheistic religions of different gods ruling over different geographical areas or nations like kings.

The meaning of these verses are obscured in later translations (for example the Masoretic text), creating the impression that it refers to the 12 tribes of Israel (the 12 sons of Jacob), while it actually refers to all humans (descendants of Adam). It also obscures the fact that it actually refers to two deities (El and his son Yahweh). Compare the same passage in the King James Version with the Dead Sea Scrolls above, with specific reference to the phrases in bold:

When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. For the Lord's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

- ‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭32:8-9‬ ‭(KJV‬‬)

Other examples of biblical evidence for the polytheistic nature of the beliefs of the Israelites:

  • The word Elohim (original meaning "sons of El" in the Canaanite religion), was subsequently used more than 2500 times in the Hebrew Tanakh, and was used to indicate anything from a range of gods, the Divine Assembly (see below), the god of the Bible, other gods (for example Chemosh, the god of Moab), and even kings and prophets.
  • The Divine Assembly, also called the Divine Council or Synod of Gods, played an important role in the Canaanite religion, where El presided over the Divine Council. In the Hebrew Bible the god of the Israelites presided over the Divine Council. See for example Psalm 82, where God has council with the other gods in the Divine Council, accuses them of corruption and sentences them to death.
  • Yahweh and the Israelites attacked the Canaanites, but they were unable to conquer them, because the Canaanites had the new technology of iron chariots. The matter of fact way in which the author relates the story is consistent with the polytheistic notion that gods were not all that powerful. Therefore, they did not blame Yahweh for his inability to handle the new technology, but sometimes perceived failures like this on the part of the god could lead them to doubt the power of their own god and to start worshipping one of the other gods instead.
  • The Israelites attacked the Moabites, but the king of Moab sacrificed his firstborn son to their god Chemosh, causing a divine wrath to descend over the Israelites, forcing them to retreat.
  • In Canaanite polytheism, the sun, moon and stars were considered demigods. In the Bible there are numerous examples of the stars singing the praise of Yahweh and falling from the sky, Yahweh reprimanding the morning star for trying to take position higher up with the other gods, the sun coming out of his tabernacle every morning like a bridegroom and so on.
  • The origin of the name Israel in the Bible is itself also a clue to the polytheistic nature of the early Israelites. It is from a story with a rather mythological element in the Bible, where Jacob physically wrestled with either God or an angel throughout the night, after which God named Jacob Israel (Yisra'El in Hebrew), meaning "he who has struggled with El".

Monolatry/henotheism in the ancient Israel beliefs:

There are also many examples of monolatry and henotheism in the Old Testament, for example a number of references to Yahweh as a jealous god. One example of this is at the beginning of the Ten Commandments:

Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God [...]

Exodus 20:3-5, King James Version (KJV)

References to "Yahweh and his Asherah" have been found, for example two different pottery shards dated to 800 BCE that reads:

  • "I have blessed you by Yahweh and his Asherah"
  • "Blessed be Uriyahu by Yahweh and by his Asherah; from his enemies he saved him!"

In other words, Yahweh had a consort or wife called Asherah, which is the same as the wife of the sky god El. This is one example of how the roles of El (the Most High of all the gods) and Yahweh (El's son) were gradually merged together and it illustrates the evolution of the Israelite religion from polytheism towards monolatry.

I have addressed more example of monolatry, henotheism and polytheism in the Bible here:

Frans du Plessis' answer to The Christian God says there is no god before him. Does that imply that there are other gods recognized in Christian mythology?

The advent of monotheism and Judaism:

By the middle of the 7th century BCE, Israelite beliefs were still fluctuating between monolatry, henotheism and even polytheism, largely dependent on the political landscape and climate at the time. This much is clear from archaeology and from the Bible itself.

This changed under King Josiah, who was the king of Judah from 641 BCE to 609 BCE and who instituted major religious changes. There is a wealth of evidence, both archaeological and written, that under the leadership of King Josiah there was a strong drive towards monolatry (not yet full monotheism) for the Israelite nation, with a mainly political purpose: binding a nation together and uniting them under one god. All worship of gods other than Yahweh were declared an anathema and the cause of Judah’s ill fortune. A vigorous campaign of purging foreign worship was started, including destroying shrines to “foreign” gods like Ba’al and Asherah in the temple of Yahweh and in the countryside, and killing their priests.

Although much of the Torah (the first five books of the Bible) was written earlier, it is widely agreed by modern scholarship that the Torah reached most of its current form during these few decades at the end of the 7th century BCE. This was done by a group of scribes, court officials and priests, who acted as editors and redactors. Polytheistic references were removed (although not all of them) and the narratives of the patriarchs, the exodus and the conquest of Canaan (some of which have been written previously) were finalised to create a history for the nation of Israel and to establish their claim to the promised land.

This can be seen, for example, in the politics and geography of the narratives from Abraham to Joshua, which is almost in its entirety based on 7th century BCE geography and political landscape, in stead of the 2nd millennium BCE geography and political landscape, when the narratives are said to have taken place. The people who brought the narratives to its final form in the 7th century BCE were simply not aware of the geography and political landscape of several centuries prior to that.

As part of the changes implemented by King Josiah and the leaders of Judah, the temple at Jerusalem was declared to be the only place of worship for the entire Israelite nation. Sacrifice to Yahweh was prohibited everywhere, except in the inner sanctum of the temple. The political ambitions of the leaders of Judah was to make the Jerusalem temple and royal palace the centre of a united Israelite kingdom.

This was what we can describe as the birth of Israelite monotheism, the worship of one God in one place. For some time after this the worship of the God of Israel was still accompanied by the veneration of other divine beings, and the Israelite beliefs were not yet fully monotheistic (denying the existence of other gods). However, the groundwork was laid by Josiah and the Israelites were ready for monotheism. That happened some decades later during the 6th century BCE, after the Judahites’ captivity in Babylonia and their exposure to Zoroastrianism, an older monotheistic religion. Denying the existence of other gods only started to happen in those parts of the Hebrew Bible that were written after the Babylonian captivity.

Modern scholarship agrees that we can really only start to describe the Israelite beliefs as Judaism, like we know it today, after this political drive by King Josiah in the 7th century BCE.

 

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crash_davis

crash_davis 23114

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33 minutes ago, Stella Link said:

All I'd like to know is who came up with the bright idea of having to cut off part of your wee-wee....

many things associated with god has nothing to do with god.

 

my guess is that he's the OG pervert child molester.  the catholic church has perpetuated his legacy for hundreds of years.

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SDG

SDG 3319

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36 minutes ago, Stella Link said:

All I'd like to know is who came up with the bright idea of having to cut off part of your wee-wee....

Maybe enough unclean wee-wees fell off so they figured cutting part of it was the solution.  The first form of preventive medicine. 

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Mole

Mole 4333

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There's an interesting Midrash on Genesis 11:28 :

 

Spoiler

"And Haran died in the presence of his father Terah" (Gen. 11:28). Rabbi Hiyya the grandson of Rabbi Adda of Yaffo [said]: Terah was a worshipper of idols. One time he had to travel to a place, and he left Abraham in charge of his store. When a man would come in to buy [idols], Abraham would ask: How old are you? They would reply: fifty or sixty. Abraham would then respond: Woe to him who is sixty years old and worships something made today - the customer would be embarrassed, and would leave. A woman entered carrying a dish full of flour. She said to him: this is for you, offer it before them. Abraham took a club in his hands and broke all of the idols, and placed the club in the hands of the biggest idol. When his father returned, he asked: who did all of this? Abraham replied: I can't hide it from you - a woman came carrying a dish of flour and told me to offer it before them. I did, and one of them said 'I will eat it first,' and another said 'I will eat it first.' The biggest one rose, took a club, and smashed the rest of them. Terah said: what, do you think you can trick me? They don't have cognition! Abraham said: Do your ears hear what your mouth is saying? Terah took Abraham and passed him off to [King] Nimrod. They said [to the king]: let us worship the fire. Abraham said to them: [rather] let us worship water, for it extinguishes fire. Nimrod agreed: let us worship water. Abraham continued: if so, let us worship the clouds, which provide water. Nimrod agreed: let us worship the clouds. Abraham continued: if so, let us worship the winds that scatter the clouds. Nimrod agreed: let us worship the winds. Abraham continued: if so, let us worship humans who are filled with wind [air]. Nimrod replied: You're just speaking words - I only worship fire. I will throw you into it, and the God you worship can save you from it. Haran was hidden and was of two minds, saying [to himself]: if Abraham is victorious, I will say I am with Abraham, and if Nimrod is victorious, I will say I am with Nimrod. When Abraham was through into the fiery furnace and saved, they asked him [Haran]: who are you with? He replied: I am with Abraham. They took him and threw him into the fire, and his insides burned up and he died before his father Terah, as it says: "And Haran died in the [lit.] on the face of his father Terah" (Gen. 11:28).

 

 

It's really hard to deny the political aspect of Genesis. In Maunder's The Astronomy of the Bible , he points out that all of the created things in Genesis 1  — the sun, the moon, animals, etc. — were gods of the surrounding cultures. Essentially, Maunder claims that Genesis 1 is a statement of the God of Genesis 1 is preeminent over all other gods. 

On circumcision, would there be a medical benefit for an ancient culture? It surely provided a strategic benefit. 

Spoiler

Three days later, while all of them were still in pain, two of Jacob's sons, Simeon and Levi, Dinah's brothers, took their swords and attacked the unsuspecting city, killing every male.

 

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Newdoc

Newdoc 3448

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34 minutes ago, Viper said:

Here's what I was looking for. It's only part of a much longer answer so click the link if you're interested.

There' are problems with the article you quoted including adoption of monotheism by the tribes of Israel from polytheism is the assumption that all ancient tribes start with polytheism and that when evidence is lacking to prove the point, then it is merely described as "scrubbed" from the ancient text.  It's all justification for a presumption by the "researchers".  It would make more sense to work from the base that polytheism evolved from monotheism because this is literally consistent with the Old Testament and all Jewish and non-Jewish tribes were persistently in trouble with the Jewish God for adopting polytheistic beliefs and worship.

11 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

many things associated with god has nothing to do with god.

Here we go with the little "g" god.  It's clear you are referencing the Jewish and Christian "God".  Is there some sort of point you are trying to make?  I don't believe in  a literal Cinderella, Zeus or the Tooth Fairy but I will go ahead and use proper grammar and respect for those who do.

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Guest Lobo

Guest Lobo

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The invention of monotheism is the greatest gift the Gods ever gave us.  I particularly want to give thanks to Manamba, the god of human social constructs and Jeff, the God of Biscuits. 

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elfenix

elfenix 34329

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Orca of Peace said:

probably thousands of books on this topic, TLDR all of them, here is a concise article showing how desert tribal politics 2500-3000 years ago affected tens of billions of people over the next 3 thousand years. 

https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/.premium.MAGAZINE-how-the-jews-invented-god-and-made-him-great-1.5392677

Decades of research into the birth and evolution of the Yhwh cult are summarized in “The Invention of God,” a recent book by Thomas Römer, a world-renowned expert in the Hebrew Bible and professor at the College de France and the University of Lausanne. Römer, who held a series of conferences at Tel Aviv University last month, spoke to Haaretz about the subject.

In any case, many scholars agree that Yhwh became the main god of the Jews only after the destruction of the kingdom of Israel by the Assyrians, around 720 BCE.

edit -- the original link worked when i first posted, but now is "premium" . I guess God works in mysterious ways. By luck , found this complete one below. 

https://mysteriousearth.net/2016/06/13/how-the-jews-invented-god-and-made-him-great/

 

also please no " the Jews did this" gif 

i got the same impression reading Karen Armstrong's History of God.  assuming that humans several thousand years ago are pretty similar to any other group of humans i've ever read up about or known, it's very believable that the leaders of the cult of yahweh were in bed with the king of jerusalem/judah (it's up in the air as to how far the king's writ travelled back then) at the time of the destruction of samaria and were able to convince enough people that it was only their king's devotion to yahweh that spared jerusalem/judah from the fate of samaria.  and all the rest needed to love yahweh really hard too.

 

eventually, over the next several hundred years the cult of yahweh took over as wholly monotheistic, with there being much development during the babylonian hostage taking (because that's what it was - take the children of the leaders to keep them in line; happened to egypt as well) and the saving of the jews by cyrus (the messiah).  but there was continual backsliding toward polytheism well into the ptolemaic times and maybe even roman. 

Edited by elfenix
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crash_davis

crash_davis 23114

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4 minutes ago, Newdoc said:

There' are problems with the article you quoted including adoption of monotheism by the tribes of Israel from polytheism is the assumption that all ancient tribes start with polytheism and that when evidence is lacking to prove the point, then it is merely described as "scrubbed" from the ancient text.  It's all justification for a presumption by the "researchers".  It would make more sense to work from the base that polytheism evolved from monotheism because this is literally consistent with the Old Testament and all Jewish and non-Jewish tribes were persistently in trouble with the Jewish God for adopting polytheistic beliefs and worship.

Here we go with the little "g" god.  It's clear you are referencing the Jewish and Christian "God".  Is there some sort of point you are trying to make?  I don't believe in  a literal Cinderella, Zeus or the Tooth Fairy but I will go ahead and use proper grammar and respect for those who do.

fucking lulz.  i don't capitalize anything. 

 

does it really offend you that much?  do you think your god is that insecure????????

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El Diablo

El Diablo 4232

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1 hour ago, Stella Link said:

All I'd like to know is who came up with the bright idea of having to cut off part of your wee-wee....

Female genitalia mutilation is the practice of the barbarians, Muslims.

Male genitalia mutilation is the practice of the enlightened ones, Christians.

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El Diablo

El Diablo 4232

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13 minutes ago, Lobo said:

The invention of monotheism is the greatest gift the Gods ever gave us.  I particularly want to give thanks to Manamba, the god of human social constructs and Jeff, the God of Biscuits. 

Jeff would be meaningless without Butter.

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Murfdogg21

Murfdogg21 4413

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Most of the pre-Jewish traditions and holidays were rolled in to incorporate one big religion for the whole gang. Those traditions may have been recent or centuries old and learned through trial and error. I’m sure at some point there was a massive break out of penile infections and they figured out circumcision would prevent most o from that. Same goes for which animals to not eat, which crops to not plant adjacent to each other, etc. 

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

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2 hours ago, Stella Link said:

All I'd like to know is who came up with the bright idea of having to cut off part of your wee-wee....

More proof that there were some matriarchal organized societies back in the day. No man would suggest this, even on a double goat dare.

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Rimbo

Rimbo 25992

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3 hours ago, Orca of Peace said:

probably thousands of books on this topic, TLDR all of them, here is a concise article showing how desert tribal politics 2500-3000 years ago affected tens of billions of people over the next 3 thousand years. 

https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/.premium.MAGAZINE-how-the-jews-invented-god-and-made-him-great-1.5392677

Decades of research into the birth and evolution of the Yhwh cult are summarized in “The Invention of God,” a recent book by Thomas Römer, a world-renowned expert in the Hebrew Bible and professor at the College de France and the University of Lausanne. Römer, who held a series of conferences at Tel Aviv University last month, spoke to Haaretz about the subject.

In any case, many scholars agree that Yhwh became the main god of the Jews only after the destruction of the kingdom of Israel by the Assyrians, around 720 BCE.

edit -- the original link worked when i first posted, but now is "premium" . I guess God works in mysterious ways. By luck , found this complete one below. 

https://mysteriousearth.net/2016/06/13/how-the-jews-invented-god-and-made-him-great/

 

also please no " the Jews did this" gif 

This is news? Shoot, we covered that in Sunday school at my church.

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Rimbo

Rimbo 25992

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2 hours ago, Newdoc said:

There' are problems with the article you quoted including adoption of monotheism by the tribes of Israel from polytheism is the assumption that all ancient tribes start with polytheism and that when evidence is lacking to prove the point, then it is merely described as "scrubbed" from the ancient text.  It's all justification for a presumption by the "researchers".  It would make more sense to work from the base that polytheism evolved from monotheism because this is literally consistent with the Old Testament and all Jewish and non-Jewish tribes were persistently in trouble with the Jewish God for adopting polytheistic beliefs and worship.

Here we go with the little "g" god.  It's clear you are referencing the Jewish and Christian "God".  Is there some sort of point you are trying to make?  I don't believe in  a literal Cinderella, Zeus or the Tooth Fairy but I will go ahead and use proper grammar and respect for those who do.

Oh, what you say is hardly "consistent" with the OT. Remember Genesis 1:26? "Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”"

The Bible even documents the "discovery" of Deuteronomy within itself, in 2 Kings 22. "Yo, kid -- I mean, your majesty, look at this never-before-seen-or-heard-of words of Moses we 'found' in the Temple!" And that is the point where the worship of Asherah, etc. became no longer accepted.

Remember, above all else, that we as Christians must understand that the Bible was written by humans, not God, who were struggling to understand divinity within the context of their time. Don't make the error of believing that the Bible is consistent. It isn't and doesn't try to be. Best example of a contradiction is the version of David in Kings (written during the Babylonian exile, where the #1 theological issue was "why did these bad things happen to us, why are we no longer in our Promised Land?") and the version of David in Chronicles (written after they were returned to Palestine under Cyrus of Persia, where David is meant to be the ideal of the theocratic king)...

 

edit: or what phdhorn said much more briefly above

Edited by Rimbo
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Uncle Nate

Uncle Nate 2097

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37 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

Oh, what you say is hardly "consistent" with the OT. Remember Genesis 1:26? "Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”"

The Bible even documents the "discovery" of Deuteronomy within itself, in 2 Kings 22. "Yo, kid -- I mean, your majesty, look at this never-before-seen-or-heard-of words of Moses we 'found' in the Temple!" And that is the point where the worship of Asherah, etc. became no longer accepted.

Remember, above all else, that we as Christians must understand that the Bible was written by humans, not God, who were struggling to understand divinity within the context of their time. Don't make the error of believing that the Bible is consistent. It isn't and doesn't try to be. Best example of a contradiction is the version of David in Kings (written during the Babylonian exile, where the #1 theological issue was "why did these bad things happen to us, why are we no longer in our Promised Land?") and the version of David in Chronicles (written after they were returned to Palestine under Cyrus of Persia, where David is meant to be the ideal of the theocratic king)...

 

edit: or what phdhorn said much more briefly above

Or the “us” and “we” is referring to the Triune God. 

Just saying. 

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Mole

Mole 4333

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The traditional view (church fathers) is the plural is a foreshadowing of the Trinity. I think, but could be wrong, that the Jewish view is that it is either a reference to angels or an intensifier depicting the majesty of God. Reinterpreting the Old Testament in light of the Gospel is pretty much foundational to Christianity, so I don't see why it can't be both from a Christian perspective.

The issue of polytheism is baked into Genesis. It only becomes a problem if you try to manufacture a 6000-year-old unbroken line from Adam walking with God to Adam Ruins Everything.

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atomheartbevo

atomheartbevo 89737

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2 hours ago, Newdoc said:

Some guy who wasn't quite up to par with the rest of the group.  

raw

Kind of what I was thinking. 

Some dude with a really tiny dick, like really tiny, we are talking probably less than 6 and 1/2 inches, wanted to see the other guys lose a little bit. 

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