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2022 US Open tennis

shadow_operative2.0

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LTtxfan

LTtxfan 49373

Posted
Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, LTtxfan said:

Stearns loses 1st set 6-4 on 1 break.

Stearns wins 2nd set 6-4  - 3 breaks to 2. 😋

On to set three - Stearns holds gm1 up 1-0.  🤘

 

 

rain delay -- play suspended

Peyton had just given up her 1st break in 3rd set.

Peyton Down 3-4

 

Edited by LTtxfan
damn autocorrect
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Napoleon

Napoleon 8700

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I used to like Osaka and hate Collins. 
 

That’s not the case anymore. 

When Naomi loses a point she didn’t expect to lose and just freezes and looks at her bench like “I need help because I am about to have a meltdown of epic victimhood levels…”

I just want her to lose in humiliating fashion. 

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On 8/29/2022 at 6:41 PM, Fudbelty said:

I can’t say I’ve watched a ton of tennis but Serena hitting one serve out then the next three straight in the net doesn’t seem ideal.

Serena's tennis is kinda boring, and its a simple equation: it's her winners minus her unforced errors and if the difference is positive enough she wins. in her hey day she would dominate with this strategy.  that sounds like a no brainier, but tennis is also about rally tolerance, defense, progressing through a point from neutral rallies to control to the winner, patience, shot selection, and creating forced errors.  Almost none of that matters with her game. She can literally win a game with 4 first serve aces. 4 winners (i.e. aces) - 0 unforced errors = dominance. But Serena often times can't rally to save her life, her defense can be non-existent, she has almost no patience, and her dominance can be so over the top that the idea of an error (forced or unforced) by her opponent isn't conceivable because her opponent can't even reach the ball when Serena gets a hold of it (i.e. hits a winner).

On 8/29/2022 at 6:44 PM, dcbc said:

It's not, but she made up for it with two aces.  So there's that.

case in point.

On 8/29/2022 at 7:32 PM, Nicole44 said:

Hard to imagine Serena no longer in the picture. So dominant for such a long time. I’m trying to get jazzed about the latest crop of womens tennis players but I’m just kinda meh about all of them…

she's one of the most dominate athletes of all time, period. she belongs in the same conversation as Michael Jordan and Tom Brady. That said, her retiring is fantastic for women's tennis.  Women's tennis is IMO much, much more interesting than most men's tennis (though when the GOATs play each other the tennis is really incredible). Women's tennis has more rally tolerance, point progressions, etc. and less aces and pure early in the point winners, which to me makes it more interesting, and a better game to watch to learn how tennis is played.  Serena frankly played an extreme version of what many men try to play which is predominately win with winners and aces and less focus on defense and rally tolerance (the men's GOATs excepted).

 

And in case anyone wants to argue with me, what makes Rafa so spectacular is his defense, the man is a grinder and will out tolerate his opponents to the win if he has to.  So i'm not saying all men's tennis. but all else being equal, if there are non-marquee matches on, i'll watch the women over the men any day.

Edited by troph
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dcbc

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5 hours ago, troph said:

And in case anyone wants to argue with me, what makes Rafa so spectacular is his defense, the man is a grinder and will out tolerate his opponents to the win if he has to.  So i'm not saying all men's tennis. but all else being equal, if there are non-marquee matches on, i'll watch the women over the men any day.

Rafa's serve is more finesse than power.  I mean don't get me wrong, he hit some in the 120s last night.  The point is, it gets returned, and then we get the rallies, which are fun.  Those two Ausies playing each other the other night was the most boring tennis I've watched in a while.  Ace, Ace, biffed return, double fault, Ace, biffed return, repeat. 

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51 minutes ago, dcbc said:

Rafa's serve is more finesse than power.  I mean don't get me wrong, he hit some in the 120s last night.  The point is, it gets returned, and then we get the rallies, which are fun.  Those two Ausies playing each other the other night was the most boring tennis I've watched in a while.  Ace, Ace, biffed return, double fault, Ace, biffed return, repeat. 

I agree with you, like I said he's a grinder. he wins because first and foremost his defense is spectacular, even offensive sometimes, he's quite possibly the best defensive tennis player ever. so good his defense is often times better than his opponent's offense which is a sure way to demoralize your opponent.  he has plenty of controlled shots and progressions to the winning shot but watch what happens when his opponent has control, he steals points on defense all the time, other times he simply neutralizes his opponent's control and then takes control, making one of the hardest shifts in tennis (from defense back to in control) look effortless at times.  it's beautiful tennis. he doesn't need an Isner power serve because he can neutralize anything but the best return of serve his opponent can muster. he's an exception to standard men's power tennis which is what serena is as well. it's boring tennis, not worth watching, not good as a teaching tool, etc. etc. I agree 100%.

and if you like that kind of tennis, 9 out of 10 matches on the women's side are that kind of tennis which is why serena retiring is good for tennis imo, we will get even more of that.

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dcbc

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Posted
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10 minutes ago, troph said:

I agree with you, like I said he's a grinder. he wins because first and foremost his defense is spectacular, even offensive sometimes, he's quite possibly the best defensive tennis player ever. so good his defense is often times better than his opponent's offense which is a sure way to demoralize your opponent.  he has plenty of controlled shots and progressions to the winning shot but watch what happens when his opponent has control, he steals points on defense all the time, other times he simply neutralizes his opponent's control and then takes control, making one of the hardest shifts in tennis (from defense back to in control) look effortless at times.  it's beautiful tennis. he doesn't need an Isner power serve because he can neutralize anything but the best return of serve his opponent can muster. he's an exception to standard men's power tennis which is what serena is as well. it's boring tennis, not worth watching, not good as a teaching tool, etc. etc.

Watching him play Novak is time well spent, aggravating and anxiety filled though it may be.  I wish the dude would take the shot so we can get back to watching him play tennis and I don't have to hear about him as the martyr for the antivax movement, many of whom probably had no idea who he was before he got bounced from Australia.

 

But Novak is a machine.  And while I enjoy watching both of them play, Rafa is, as you described it, playing beautiful tennis.  I can't recall if it was Australia or early Wimbledon, but he absolutely and consistently punished someone's backhand in super tight windows.  Just unreal.

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4 minutes ago, dcbc said:

Watching him play Novak is time well spent, aggravating and anxiety filled though it may be.  I wish the dude would take the shot so we can get back to watching him play tennis and I don't have to hear about him as the martyr for the antivax movement, many of whom probably had no idea who he was before he got bounced from Australia.

 

But Novak is a machine.  And while I enjoy watching both of them play, Rafa is, as you described it, playing beautiful tennis.  I can't recall if it was Australia or early Wimbledon, but he absolutely and consistently punished someone's backhand in super tight windows.  Just unreal.

that's the only match that I prefer over the top women's tennis, and I said as much. I'd pay quite a bit to watch a five set with those two guys live and in person.  The vax issue is annoying I agree but I otherwise love the guy, don't get the hate.

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dcbc

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8 minutes ago, troph said:

that's the only match that I prefer over the top women's tennis, and I said as much. I'd pay quite a bit to watch a five set with those two guys live and in person.  The vax issue is annoying I agree but I otherwise love the guy, don't get the hate.

Yeah, I was late to the party.  The dude is absolutely incredible. 

 

Men's and women's tennis each has ebbed and flowed over the  years.  I grew up watching in the early 80s when both were ebbing hard.  Women's tennis was more interesting post Williams sisters' hitting the scene.  Apart from the above, it's easier to watch for me, kind of like college football versus pros---better pace and more opportunity for rallies.  But the greats are the greats on both sides.  I'll always watch.  I can't wait to see what Gauff does over the next five years.  She's going to need to be Ruse first.

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Mo Horn

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I get that Serena is the goat and the fans want to see her keep playing, but the onesideedness is crazy. Kontaveit got to some crazy balls and hit a phenomenal passing shot, and the crowd groans. She hits it into the net and it's like Serena hit the greatest shot ever seen. I love Serena and a huge fan, but geez. 

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gsoda3

gsoda3 3283

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Women's tennis has more rally tolerance, point progressions, etc. and less aces and pure early in the point winners, which to me makes it more interesting, and a better game to watch to learn how tennis is played.  Serena frankly played an extreme version of what many men try to play which is predominately win with winners and aces and less focus on defense and rally tolerance (the men's GOATs excepted).



You're overgeneralizing Serena vs the field in an extreme way. There have been several studies done over the years on this topic and it was an interesting point of discussion a few years ago when the issue of equal pay at the slams was trending. The average rally in both men's and women's tennis is less than four shots. The average rally in major tournaments is actually longer in men's tennis than women's tennis and the same trend occurs throughout the junior rankings.

I agree in general the men have a tendency to be more aggressive. While it should lead on average to lower stroke numbers for the men it's evened out by the crazy number of unforced errors in the women's game, which speaks to why they aren't as aggressive - the shot making ability isn't the same.
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5 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:


 

 


You're overgeneralizing Serena vs the field in an extreme way. There have been several studies done over the years on this topic and it was an interesting point of discussion a few years ago when the issue of equal pay at the slams was trending. The average rally in both men's and women's tennis is less than four shots. The average rally in major tournaments is actually longer in men's tennis than women's tennis and the same trend occurs throughout the junior rankings.

I agree in general the men have a tendency to be more aggressive. While it should lead on average to lower stroke numbers for the men it's evened out by the crazy number of unforced errors in the women's game, which speaks to why they aren't as aggressive - the shot making ability isn't the same.

 

I haven’t looked at the numbers maybe as you have but if you really think Serena’s secret isn’t her wins/aces minus her unforced errors then I don’t know what to tell you. I also argue for a living and have zero interest in an argument about a sport I love. So I’ll take you at your word on the rest and say thanks for the info. 

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Btw here’s and article noting significant differences on breaking serves and aces both pointing to what I consider more interesting tennis on the women’s side, so while I have not studied data I do have anecdotal preference and there is data to support the fact that a person might find the women’s game / style of play more interesting, though maybe where I assumed causation was erroneous. More breaks in women’s tennis (I think by a third) and less aces (50% less).  So whatever the reason might be it remains the case I find the women’s game more interesting the mens semis and finals of the majors often excepted. 
 

https://medium.com/@alexrauf/how-do-men-women-serves-differ-in-pro-tennis-ca66ee9e2492

 

as for 0-4 shots of course the majority of tennis is under four shots. I play tennis and I prefer to win a point in under 6 total and hate long points. They might be entertaining but they are terribly unsettling as a player, whether you win or lose them.

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conVINCEd

conVINCEd 21469

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3 minutes ago, troph said:

Btw here’s and article noting significant differences on breaking serves and aces both pointing to what I consider more interesting tennis on the women’s side, so while I have not studied data I do have anecdotal preference and there is data to support the fact that a person might find the play more interesting. More breaks in women’s tennis and less aces (50% less).  So whatever the reason might be it remains the case I find the women’s game more interesting the mens semis and finals of the majors excepted. 
 

https://medium.com/@alexrauf/how-do-men-women-serves-differ-in-pro-tennis-ca66ee9e2492

I like the woman’s game better because they look really good in short skirts. 

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dcbc

dcbc 14525

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Interviewer:  Are you surprised?

 

Serena:  No.  I'm just Serena.

 

I didn't expect any of this, but I'm really enjoying it.  This is like watching Rocky (II, III, IV, it doesn't matter).

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UpperWestside

UpperWestside 6190

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1 hour ago, Mo Horn said:

I get that Serena is the goat and the fans want to see her keep playing, but the onesideedness is crazy. Kontaveit got to some crazy balls and hit a phenomenal passing shot, and the crowd groans. She hits it into the net and it's like Serena hit the greatest shot ever seen. I love Serena and a huge fan, but geez. 

Fans flew in from around the globe to see Serena play. If I am flying thousands of miles while paying the prices these folks are in order to see Serena in one final tournament then yes I would be cheering everything she does. Kontaveit knew this would be the environment going in and she was okay with it. I met a woman on Monday that flew in from London solely to see Serena play. I hope she wins this tournament. She is among the handful of greatest athletes of all-time. Go out with a bang Serena!

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gsoda3

gsoda3 3283

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I haven’t looked at the numbers maybe as you have but if you really think Serena’s secret isn’t her wins/aces minus her unforced errors then I don’t know what to tell you. I also argue for a living and have zero interest in an argument about a sport I love. So I’ll take you at your word on the rest and say thanks for the info. 
I don't argue for a living but my day job is being right at the correct time so I can get pedantic and it can carry over here, sorry.

We're not saying that different of things other than I think you're looking at the women's game through the lens of Serena's style and it's distorting the image. I agree she plays like Bowser in Mario tennis and her night changes from set to set based on her ability to limit errors and have her winners land. I don't think though it's as unique in the women's game and prevalent in the men's game as you think.
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Mo Horn

Mo Horn 8855

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13 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

Fans flew in from around the globe to see Serena play. If I am flying thousands of miles while paying the prices these folks are in order to see Serena in one final tournament then yes I would be cheering everything she does. Kontaveit knew this would be the environment going in and she was okay with it. I met a woman on Monday that flew in from London solely to see Serena play. I hope she wins this tournament. She is among the handful of greatest athletes of all-time. Go out with a bang Serena!

I'm rooting for her to win it all as well, and everyone knew this was going to be the way it was. But, I appreciate great tennis and happy to acknowledge that regardless of who makes the shots. AK hit some great shots and the crowd groaned. They even booed a replay because AK won the point. Even though she knew it was going to happen, it had to be disheartening. It will be no different every match. 

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14 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

I don't argue for a living but my day job is being right at the correct time so I can get pedantic and it can carry over here, sorry.

We're not saying that different of things other than I think you're looking at the women's game through the lens of Serena's style and it's distorting the image. I agree she plays like Bowser in Mario tennis and her night changes from set to set based on her ability to limit errors and have her winners land. I don't think though it's as unique in the women's game and prevalent in the men's game as you think.

Im usually dead on right at work too but this isn’t work so meh. And frankly your post made me think and helped move my personal game forward so it’s all good. I found an article saying  hitting 20 in a row consistently isn’t as important as hitting your first 2 shots 10 times in a row as consistently. Though I’ve lost to more rally tolerant players and I hate it. Anyway, my lens is more about the likes of Kyrgios and Isner (and those dominate servers) and aces and no breaks than simply Serena though she plays similarly. I like serve and volley too though maybe there are no differences there either. Maybe men are more perfect at the game but then I prefer college baseball over MLB too so my bias for less perfection being equivalent to more interesting is clear. Though the World Series is one of the great sports events so similarly when the men GOATs play I love to watch. But day in day out, I like women’s tennis more, I find it more interesting. Clearly my half baked reason wasn’t based on data but it’s still more interesting to me. Seems like there is some data that backs my reasoning up. 

Edited by troph
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gsoda3

gsoda3 3283

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12 minutes ago, troph said:

hitting 20 in a row consistently isn’t as important as hitting your first 2 shots 10 times in a row as consistently.

something something first serves percentages ... maria sharapova...

 

kyrgios is so talented.  i hate how he berates his box.  i don't like his antics or the way he expresses frustration on court but i appreciate his honesty.  his serve gets him out of trouble and frankly sets up loads of points for him.  his defense gets overlooked, partly due to his offensive prowess, partly due to his lack of mental stamina where he just quits sometimes.  he's a more talented andy roddick in every aspect except his head.

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dcbc

dcbc 14525

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1 minute ago, gsoda3 said:

something something first serves percentages ... maria sharapova...

 

kyrgios is so talented.  i hate how he berates his box.  i don't like his antics or the way he expresses frustration on court but i appreciate his honesty.  his serve gets him out of trouble and frankly sets up loads of points for him.  his defense gets overlooked, partly due to his offensive prowess, partly due to his lack of mental stamina where he just quits sometimes.  he's a more talented andy roddick in every aspect except his head.

He fed on the frustrations he meted out on his box.  He'd serve three aces in a row after acting like a dick to his people for a minute.  I didn't appreciate it either, but it works for him.

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