Water, water, everywhere ..

[Mighty fine 169]

 

Over the last few years there have been a number of threads on here regarding water resources related topics. I found myself trying to find a few of these today and was wishing there was a centralized repository for these, hence this thread.

 

As the number of water users and development continue to increase both across the state and especially locally, we're likely going to have to be a bit more creative in how we manage our supplies and mitigate storm water impacts. The State has a couple of decades of experience in water supply planning, and is just wrapping up their inaugural flood plan efforts. New technologies/ strategies are being implemented to address these areas. Here's one of my favorite technical topics with local relevance:

 

https://www.austinmonitor.com/stories/2022/05/austin-water-to-announce-pilot-aquifer-storage-site-by-the-end-of-next-year/

 

As this board seems to have quite a few bright people with diverse backgrounds and views on these subjects, I figured this would be a good place to discuss as these topics come up.

[South Austin 52431]

It's piss.

[TexasEd 8066]

What’s the problem? We’re on our second straight week of nonstop rain. 

[CleverNickname 1308]

11 minutes ago, South Austin said:

It's piss.

Technically piss AND "forever chemicals."

[crash_davis 23096]

Desalination should be part of any solution. It's expensive but as I said on another thread, need is the mother of invention. This process should evolve like solar panels. Think of solar panels today versus 20 years ago. Start pumping capital into building more plants and evolving the process. It will get more efficient and cost effective. 

https://waterdefense.org/water-filter/reverse-osmosis/desalination/

 

Desalination produces a ton of waste/brine. Here's an example of how to turn that waste into something useful. Also as stated above, we will find better uses and ways to "get rid of" the waste.

https://news.mit.edu/2019/brine-desalianation-waste-sodium-hydroxide-0213

 

[Pato del Muerto 52484]

More lakes to keep the water where it falls

[crash_davis 23096]

3 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

More lakes to keep the water where it falls

The West doesn't have a dearth of lakes. It and much of the world right now has a dearth of rain to keep those lakes full.

[ztejas 43411]

So let's all have a drink? 

[Brisketexan 105041]

One word:  ICEBERGS

 

[Pato del Muerto 52484]

4 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

The West doesn't have a dearth of lakes. It and much of the world right now has a dearth of rain to keep those lakes full.

If we are working towards a climate of drought-flood-repeat, I’d think holding more water from the floods to get through the droughts would be helpful. 
 

and maybe some shade cloth to help slow evaporation. 

Edited August 30, 2022 by Pato del Muerto

[Apep 645]

Why not just rebuild the Pleistocene Great Basin lakes for desalinization? They won’t notice the extra salt and brine. 

[Steel Shank 9421]

I could use some of the brine on my chicken and turkey.

[crash_davis 23096]

11 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

If we are working towards a climate of drought-flood-repeat, I’d think holding more water from the floods to get through the droughts would be helpful. 
 

and maybe some shade cloth to help slow evaporation. 

Already thought of. Black balls. 

https://www.grunge.com/153894/the-real-reason-this-reservoir-is-covered-in-96-million-black-balls/

 

[DaggerHorns 3082]

You silly fucks keep spouting (pun intended) all of this desalination nonsense.

Water is in the air all around us.

You need to learn from one of our local homeboys, Moses West. He’s a god damn genius. Run it off solar.

https://awgcontractingus.com

 

[tx 3 putt 76859]

30 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

More lakes to keep the water where it falls

 

a lake / dam on the guadalupe, north of cuero ? 

[Brisketexan 105041]

6 minutes ago, DaggerHorns said:

You silly fucks keep spouting (pun intended) all of this desalination nonsense.

Water is in the air all around us.

You need to learn from one of our local homeboys, Moses West. He’s a god damn genius. Run it off solar.

https://awgcontractingus.com

 

I've been listening to that same sales pitch from guys for nearly 25 years.  There's a jillion reasons that tech 1) isn't everywhere and 2) isn't a solution to large-scale water needs.  It has a place.  But "solving huge needs for lots of water at an affordable price" ain't it.

[Mighty fine 169]

I've been listening to that same sales pitch from guys for nearly 25 years.  There's a jillion reasons that tech 1) isn't everywhere and 2) isn't a solution to large-scale water needs.  It has a place.  But "solving huge needs for lots of water at an affordable price" ain't it.

Agreed. But, if it were capable of supplying large demands, could you imagine the legal/ regulatory shit show regarding appropriation of atmospheric water?

[Nueces River Rat 5537]

T Boone made a lot his money from water rights in West Texas which subsequently went to Okie State and I'm sure  few Refs pockets after one game in Austin a few years back that pisses me off to this day when I see the You Tube clip.  

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/t-boone-pickens-a-water-baron-for-the-21st-century/

 

[Orange&White 5521]

Wouldn't the LCRA need to agree to any reservoir within it's basin?

If so, why would they sign off on allowing Austin to build a reservoir and control that water that is falling on the LCRA basin?

This seems like something that would have to be approved by the Legislature, who don't seem to be keen on granting Austin any additional rights or powers.

[DaggerHorns 3082]

19 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I've been listening to that same sales pitch from guys for nearly 25 years.  There's a jillion reasons that tech 1) isn't everywhere and 2) isn't a solution to large-scale water needs.  It has a place.  But "solving huge needs for lots of water at an affordable price" ain't it.

It’s much lower cost and infrastructure than anything related to desalination.

Drilling a well is the lowest cost but that’s not an infinite amount of water.

Atmospheric water generation is the best solution, even though you have no idea about the cost.

Its absolutely scalable per home or industrial use. 
 

Getting water for a home cost less than solar at the moment with this solution but they’re doing solar on a grand scale. It just takes education and awareness for people like yourself.

[Sawbonz 27526]

Atmospheric Water Generation

 

so, rain?

[Captainant 27619]

6 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Atmospheric Water Generation

 

so, rain?

More specifically, cloud seeding. China has been trying it lately to address their critical drought

[freyguy 4258]

1 hour ago, Mighty fine said:

 

 

Over the last few years there have been a number of threads on here regarding water resources related topics. I found myself trying to find a few of these today and was wishing there was a centralized repository for these, hence this thread.

 

As the number of water users and development continue to increase both across the state and especially locally, we're likely going to have to be a bit more creative in how we manage our supplies and mitigate storm water impacts. The State has a couple of decades of experience in water supply planning, and is just wrapping up their inaugural flood plan efforts. New technologies/ strategies are being implemented to address these areas. Here's one of my favorite technical topics with local relevance:

 

https://www.austinmonitor.com/stories/2022/05/austin-water-to-announce-pilot-aquifer-storage-site-by-the-end-of-next-year/

 

As this board seems to have quite a few bright people with diverse backgrounds and views on these subjects, I figured this would be a good place to discuss as these topics come up.

 

$1 says we fuck this up...

[Judge Roybeanbag 11819]

5 minutes ago, freyguy said:

$1 says we fuck this up...

I'm not taking that bet.

[gmr548 16575]

Highly recommend Where The Water Goes by David Owen. Really fascinating insight to the water situation in the Colorado River basin.

[Pato del Muerto 52484]

27 minutes ago, Captainant said:

More specifically, cloud seeding. China has been trying it lately to address their critical drought

Why don’t they just use their hurricane gun on themselves?

[Brisketexan 105041]

16 minutes ago, DaggerHorns said:

It’s much lower cost and infrastructure than anything related to desalination.

Drilling a well is the lowest cost but that’s not an infinite amount of water.

Atmospheric water generation is the best solution, even though you have no idea about the cost.

Its absolutely scalable per home or industrial use. 
 

Getting water for a home cost less than solar at the moment with this solution but they’re doing solar on a grand scale. It just takes education and awareness for people like yourself.

Nope.  Not buying the "monorail!" pitch.  I've been connected to the water biz, specifically in Texas, for a LONG time.  I've seen and heard most of it by now.  And atmospheric water production is not a practical solution.

7 minutes ago, Captainant said:

More specifically, cloud seeding. China has been trying it lately to address their critical drought

No, its condensation tech, and its been around for a long time.  People discover it, tout it as a miracle, and a solution to all our woes.  Looking right past the power costs.  And yes, having large scale solar arrays will help.....but condensation works best where relative humidity is HIGH (think the Texas coast), whereas solar works best where there are few clouds (think West Texas).  Here's just a snapshot on comparable energy consumption of one of the primary condensation tech products on the market:

Quote

Looking at the best case, that’s around 0.68 kilowatt-hours per gallon. In comparison, desalinating seawater, which is already considered energy-intensive, can be done for just 0.0113 kilowatt-hours per gallon.

The energy costs make it impractical for large-scale production.  The desirable attributes for atmospheric water production are inconsistent with the desirable attributes for solar power production.  There's a reason that this technology has not been deployed on a large scale, and it's not any grand conspiracy of "big water" or anything like that.  It's just that when the goal is "produce a shitton of water for a manageable cost," it doesn't fit the bill.  Maybe as solar tech improves - both in terms of solar energy converted to power and lower costs - it will be a viable solution.  But that day isn't today.

[DaggerHorns 3082]

I like how you skipped over the part about the desalination plant setup cost.

Thats by far the largest cost.

You also have larger carbon credits on the back end to sell through creating the solar and water generation.

Its ok that you’re not in innovative or intelligent. We’ve all known this for quite some time.

[Brisketexan 105041]

 

This....is getting to be amusing.  Oh do tell me how much the cost is, on a gallons-per-day basis, of a large-scale atmospheric generation plant?  Then, factor in useful life, maintenance costs, power costs and the like.  Bonus points if you account for the maximum volume that can be produced, and what kind of footprint that will take.  Then, realizing the massive footprint that would be required compared to a de-sal facility right on the coast, factor in the transport (infrastructure construction cost, and then pumping cost) of getting the water to the consumers.

The technology you are touting has existed for decades.  Cheaper solar power, with carbon credit attributes, has been around for a good while as well.  If it was the miracle cure you are claiming it is, it would have been deployed at some real scale by now.  It hasn't been.  There are a shitload of people working on ways to provide abundant fresh water to large users.  None of them are looking to this tech.  There's a lot of reasons for that.  Maybe I'm a stupid rube.  But they aren't.

[Foosters 17820]

57 minutes ago, DaggerHorns said:

I like how you skipped over the part about the desalination plant setup cost.

Thats by far the largest cost.

You also have larger carbon credits on the back end to sell through creating the solar and water generation.

Its ok that you’re not in innovative or intelligent. We’ve all known this for quite some time.

Gotta be cheaper just to pump water from the Mississippi to the West. 

[Post Oak 20204]

Obviously, any water solution starts at the tap. Lawns need to go. Natives need to replace them. People need to use their water at least twice (gray water systems). Rainharvesting needs to become common place. I believe a lot of this can be done with carrots instead of sticks. San Antonio (I think) has a pretty successful water wise program using rebates but people who water on their off days need to be fined

People who water their lawn immediately after a rain or during the heat of the day need to be chopped up and used for parts. .

[DaggerHorns 3082]

37 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

 

This....is getting to be amusing.  Oh do tell me how much the cost is, on a gallons-per-day basis, of a large-scale atmospheric generation plant?  Then, factor in useful life, maintenance costs, power costs and the like.  Bonus points if you account for the maximum volume that can be produced, and what kind of footprint that will take.  Then, realizing the massive footprint that would be required compared to a de-sal facility right on the coast, factor in the transport (infrastructure construction cost, and then pumping cost) of getting the water to the consumers.

The technology you are touting has existed for decades.  Cheaper solar power, with carbon credit attributes, has been around for a good while as well.  If it was the miracle cure you are claiming it is, it would have been deployed at some real scale by now.  It hasn't been.  There are a shitload of people working on ways to provide abundant fresh water to large users.  None of them are looking to this tech.  There's a lot of reasons for that.  Maybe I'm a stupid rube.  But they aren't.

It was amusing on my first reply when I told you that you didn’t know how much it cost. It was over for you from there…

[DaggerHorns 3082]

31 minutes ago, Foosters said:

Gotta be cheaper just to pump water from the Mississippi to the West. 

I always wanted to explore this concept. We build oil pipelines all over the world. I always wondered about a water grid from flood areas to drought areas. There would still be the need for purification but the concept is very interesting.

[Brisketexan 105041]

8 minutes ago, DaggerHorns said:

It was amusing on my first reply when I told you that you didn’t know how much it cost. It was over for you from there…

Cool.  Educate me.  Show me the math, using the factors I noted.

And maybe explain to me why none of the actual planners for future water supply for large-scale users (cities etc.) are planning to use your proposed solution.

I'm always happy to learn.

[DaggerHorns 3082]

38 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Cool.  Educate me.  Show me the math, using the factors I noted.

And maybe explain to me why none of the actual planners for future water supply for large-scale users (cities etc.) are planning to use your proposed solution.

I'm always happy to learn.

Lol, that’s not how it works. You can’t just shout something and claim it to be true. 
 

The burden of proof lies with you as you insisted that it doesn’t make sense. Prove it to me. Give me the numbers. Bonus points if you can give me the cost of a desalination plant.

There’s solutions for problems everywhere. It doesn’t mean people immediately adopt them. I firmly believe it just proof of concept on a larger scale.

The point is it’s a lower cost compared to the desalination plant. Your infrastructure cost is much higher for a desalination plant. The atmospheric water generation uses gravity which only results in way less pumps than something that is installed at sea level.

I agree carbon credits have been around for awhile but you don’t see people pairing them with other water production solutions to my knowledge. You also have a tremendous amount of focus on climate change. Now more than ever. This is most interesting to me because for decades we used water to produce electricity and now we may be using electricity to produce water.

People will use atmospheric water generation at local levels on a much larger scale than desalination plants. No one will build one and pump water to Denver or Austin for example. Why? Because it costs way too much.

I could sit here and waste my time and start quoting my kWh, fuel costs, daily/hourly gallon production to you but I unfortunately don’t share the same passion for message boards as you do.

[Zepol87 9185]

Get Randy Marsh on the job

[Incredulity 11643]

12 minutes ago, DaggerHorns said:

You can’t just shout something and claim it to be true. 

I take it you don’t go to Cloak Room.

[Orange&White 5521]

It’s so great that no one chooses to do it!!

Edited August 31, 2022 by Orange&White

[Blotto 23485]

4 hours ago, crash_davis said:

Already thought of. Black balls. 

https://www.grunge.com/153894/the-real-reason-this-reservoir-is-covered-in-96-million-black-balls/

 

should name it the Kardashian Reservoir

[Brisketexan 105041]

Lol, that’s not how it works. You can’t just shout something and claim it to be true. 
 
The burden of proof lies with you as you insisted that it doesn’t make sense. Prove it to me. Give me the numbers. Bonus points if you can give me the cost of a desalination plant.
There’s solutions for problems everywhere. It doesn’t mean people immediately adopt them. I firmly believe it just proof of concept on a larger scale.
The point is it’s a lower cost compared to the desalination plant. Your infrastructure cost is much higher for a desalination plant. The atmospheric water generation uses gravity which only results in way less pumps than something that is installed at sea level.
I agree carbon credits have been around for awhile but you don’t see people pairing them with other water production solutions to my knowledge. You also have a tremendous amount of focus on climate change. Now more than ever. This is most interesting to me because for decades we used water to produce electricity and now we may be using electricity to produce water.
People will use atmospheric water generation at local levels on a much larger scale than desalination plants. No one will build one and pump water to Denver or Austin for example. Why? Because it costs way too much.
I could sit here and waste my time and start quoting my kWh, fuel costs, daily/hourly gallon production to you but I unfortunately don’t share the same passion for message boards as you do.

Wait….you’re the one insisting that atmospheric generation is the magic bullet…and I’M the one with the burden of proof? How about you make a pitch - any pitch, with actual comparative numbers - actually SHOWING us why it’s our savior?
And I would very much like to know why actual water resource planners have not adopted this world-changing, affordable technology. Seriously, if what you are saying is true, we would expect to see large-scale projects, if not in operation at least in the serious planning stages. As far as I know, there aren’t any. Why do you think that is? I’d like to know.

[CooterBrown 18001]

As the number of water users and development continue to increase both across the state and especially locally, we're likely going to have to be a bit more creative in how we manage our supplies and mitigate storm water impacts.

This is Texas. We ain’t planning shit.

[DaggerHorns 3082]

14 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Wait….you’re the one insisting that atmospheric generation is the magic bullet…and I’M the one with the burden of proof? How about you make a pitch - any pitch, with actual comparative numbers - actually SHOWING us why it’s our savior?
And I would very much like to know why actual water resource planners have not adopted this world-changing, affordable technology. Seriously, if what you are saying is true, we would expect to see large-scale projects, if not in operation at least in the serious planning stages. As far as I know, there aren’t any. Why do you think that is? I’d like to know.

1) Read the fucking link in my first post

2) Google it, google Moses, I don’t give a fuck

3) He’s used the technology in Flint, MI, Puerto Rico, the Bahamas and more. It’s big, it’s proven and more people are using it.

4) Re-read #3 you moronic illiterate stupid fucking bastard

There, there are your projects. You could’ve simply used your own electron sized brain to actually look up the technology from the first fucking link I posted. Instead, you just cried aloud and said “waaaaaah, as far as I know, there aren’t any.”

You know why you didn’t know? You haven’t left your trailer park since June and you can’t jeopardize your cricket cellular data plan by actually searching more about atmospheric water generation.

Why the fuck would I waste time explaining shit that you can look up? Educate yourself. Read, fuckwad!

[Armybrat 40815]

5 hours ago, Pato del Muerto said:

If we are working towards a climate of drought-flood-repeat, I’d think holding more water from the floods to get through the droughts would be helpful. 
 

and maybe some shade cloth to help slow evaporation. 

LA dropped 96 million “shade balls” in their reservoir ro slow evaporation:

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/150812-shade-balls-los-angeles-California-drought-water-environment

 

Edited August 31, 2022 by Armybrat

[Armybrat 40815]

5 hours ago, Steel Shank said:

I could use some of the brine on my chicken and turkey.

Thought you might suggest laying a lot of pipe from the Great Lakes to West Texas.

5 hours ago, crash_davis said:

Already thought of. Black balls. 

https://www.grunge.com/153894/the-real-reason-this-reservoir-is-covered-in-96-million-black-balls/

 

Beat me to it. 

[Armybrat 40815]

[Bevo 13559]

4 hours ago, Captainant said:

More specifically, cloud seeding. China has been trying it lately to address their critical drought

Sounds like a script for Sharknado.

[Bevo 13559]

4 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Nope.  Not buying the "monorail!" pitch.  I've been connected to the water biz, specifically in Texas, for a LONG time. 

I don't know if I would call peeing in the neighbor's yard "connected to the water biz".

[Brisketexan 105041]

1) Read the fucking link in my first post
2) Google it, google Moses, I don’t give a fuck
3) He’s used the technology in Flint, MI, Puerto Rico, the Bahamas and more. It’s big, it’s proven and more people are using it.
4) Re-read #3 you moronic illiterate stupid fucking bastard
There, there are your projects. You could’ve simply used your own electron sized brain to actually look up the technology from the first fucking link I posted. Instead, you just cried aloud and said “waaaaaah, as far as I know, there aren’t any.”
You know why you didn’t know? You haven’t left your trailer park since June and you can’t jeopardize your cricket cellular data plan by actually searching more about atmospheric water generation.
Why the fuck would I waste time explaining shit that you can look up? Educate yourself. Read, fuckwad!

I’m more of a “use my Jittterbug phone on the free Denny’s wifi” kinda guy, but ok.
And I actually had scrolled through your link….which reads EXACTLY like the materials I read when this tech was first brought to my attention 20 years ago. Right down to the real-world applications. Which all boil down to….it’s a quite useful and helpful technology in areas that have lost their access to clean water, and/or are not near sufficient infrastructure, and the like. If I had to work a rehab project in the mountains of Puerto Rico, I’d love having one of these units available. If I was in Flint while the water system was being rehabbed, I’d love it. Very cool.
But of course, that’s not what I asked about, and what I asked about doesn’t exist: large-scale permanent installation of this tech as a primary water source for a large user base. You can yell at me and call me all the names you want (my wife could probably give you a few suggestions that haven’t even occurred to you), but that won’t change the fact that no large-customer base utility, city, etc. has ever installed AWG as a significant long-term water source, whereas numerous places have built de-sal (which is still far from their first choice).

I don't know if I would call peeing in the neighbor's yard "connected to the water biz".

You’re no Bear Grylls.

[Bevo 13559]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You’re no Bear Grylls.

Nah, more like the homeless peeps you see near 6th.

[Da Fino 2772]

2 hours ago, DaggerHorns said:

Lol, that’s not how it works. You can’t just shout something and claim it to be true. 
 

The burden of proof lies with you as you insisted that it doesn’t make sense. Prove it to me. Give me the numbers. Bonus points if you can give me the cost of a desalination plant.

There’s solutions for problems everywhere. It doesn’t mean people immediately adopt them. I firmly believe it just proof of concept on a larger scale.

The point is it’s a lower cost compared to the desalination plant. Your infrastructure cost is much higher for a desalination plant. The atmospheric water generation uses gravity which only results in way less pumps than something that is installed at sea level.

I agree carbon credits have been around for awhile but you don’t see people pairing them with other water production solutions to my knowledge. You also have a tremendous amount of focus on climate change. Now more than ever. This is most interesting to me because for decades we used water to produce electricity and now we may be using electricity to produce water.

People will use atmospheric water generation at local levels on a much larger scale than desalination plants. No one will build one and pump water to Denver or Austin for example. Why? Because it costs way too much.

I could sit here and waste my time and start quoting my kWh, fuel costs, daily/hourly gallon production to you but I unfortunately don’t share the same passion for message boards as you do.

I'm actually interested in this. Do you have comps to desalination and the other proposals? I was told years ago to invest in this and I blew it off. I feel like this is going to be a huge problem in Africa.