Suicide: Discussion of the Phenomenon

[Guest]

If you are considering suicide, seek professional help immediately.

https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/

If you are dealing with mental health issues and want to discuss them on this forum, then visit this thread:

Cactusflinthead's Mental Health Thread

 

This thread is for the discussion of the morality, the causes, and understanding the nature of suicide as a phenomenon.  Suicide has been on the rise over the past decade and has recently become the topic of national discussion due to recent suicides by the those who seem to have it all.

1.  Why is suicide on the rise?

I believe that mental health issues and suicides are on the rise due to a combination of social media and excessive screen time and shortage of face to face time, increased isolation in modern society, and the rise of sanitized secular ontological materialism in society and its tendency to lead one to nihilism.  

2.  Is suicide moral?  

Traditionally it was considered immoral to kill yourself.  Now the view that it is not immoral is more prevalent.  I think that it is immoral under the vast majority of circumstances that most people are under when they commit suicide.  It is commonly argued that since an underlying mental health issue was causing the person to suffer, then they are exonerated from any accusation of immorality.  My argument in return is that one's feelings and urges, no matter how real and powerful, are not valid for moral justification of a decision.  For example, if one commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, no one would consider the fact the he really felt compelled to do so as morally justifying the act.  

3.  Should the decision to commit suicide be considered shameful?

This is tied to the morality question above and how one views the morality issue will impact their response to this question.  I think historically suicide was viewed as shameful, but now it is becoming more common to view the shaming of suicide as wrong.  Is it pure coincide that the increase in the belief that suicide is not immoral and the removal of shame from suicide has corresponded with the rise of suicides?  

4.  Is death from suicide different than death by purely physiological diseases such as cancer?

In a related thread, Ghost of LL wrote the following:

26 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

That's what mental illness does to you.  It's tragic.  But it's an illness all the same.  He died of an illness just the same as if he'd have died of cancer.

Are dying from cancer and dying by suicide equivalents?  I think they are clearly distinct and ought not to be considered as equivalents.  

 

Disclaimer:  This topic is very polarizing and people have strong beliefs about it often tied to personal experiences.  Be patient and kind with one another.  As for me, I'm aware that my views will not be popular with some, but my goal is not to offend anyone.  I'm interested in learning what you all think.  

[Longhornmaniac8 255]

This is an honest question, and it's not directed at you specifically: Who gives a fuck if it's moral or not? It doesn't change a thing. I'm certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that shaming people considering suicide (or posthumously if the deed is done) and telling people it's immoral is the exact wrong way to combat it.

As you said, be patient and kind with one another. I 100% agree with that. Framing the discussion as one of morality or shame is the absolute wrong way to go about it.

The morality aspect should be as far from this discussion as possible. We will lose more people if that gets injected into the discourse.

[Longhornmaniac8 255]

And lest my comments imply otherwise, I think this is a good topic and a conversation that should be had.

[hayden_horn 11362]

4 minutes ago, Longhornmaniac8 said:

This is an honest question, and it's not directed at you specifically: Who gives a fuck if it's moral or not? It doesn't change a thing. I'm certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that shaming people considering suicide (or posthumously if the deed is done) and telling people it's immoral is the exact wrong way to combat it.

As you said, be patient and kind with one another. I 100% agree with that. Framing the discussion as one of morality or shame is the absolute wrong way to go about it.

The morality aspect should be as far from this discussion as possible. We will lose more people if that gets injected into the discourse.

yeah, i think it raises a question of whether or not a concept of morality can exist in an irrational mind. i don't think it does. mental illness is not really all that concerned with morality.

[bernorange 8362]

I haven't put a whole lot of thought into this subject, much less any research, but my superficial impression (with respect to your first question) is that there is a culmination of significant inflection points in recent history (9/11, Iraq war lies, the 2008 financial crisis, Snowden/NSAA revelations, etc.) have contributed to shattering a lot perceptions about the world we live in (and not for the better).  I think the current political climate that allowed Trump to win the GOP primary and the POTUS is also reflective of a tipping point in the perception that the political institutions/actors which rule the day have lost the public trust.  Hopelessness for the future - whether considering personal economic circumstances, or wider societal/political issues (or both) could be contributing to higher rates of depression/suicide.

[HenryJames 66131]

7 minutes ago, Longhornmaniac8 said:

This is an honest question, and it's not directed at you specifically: Who gives a fuck if it's moral or not?

Because he thinks people who commit suicide are going to hell?

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

26 minutes ago, Aphelion said:

Are dying from cancer and dying by suicide equivalents?  I think they are clearly distinct and ought not to be considered as equivalents.  

Yes. 

Until we honestly address mental illness (whether temporary or permanent) as an ILLNESS, we will never fix the problem. 

Can you imagine telling a cancer patient to  "get over it" or "toughen up"?

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Longhornmaniac8 said:

This is an honest question, and it's not directed at you specifically: Who gives a fuck if it's moral or not? It doesn't change a thing. I'm certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that shaming people considering suicide (or posthumously if the deed is done) and telling people it's immoral is the exact wrong way to combat it.

As you said, be patient and kind with one another. I 100% agree with that. Framing the discussion as one of morality or shame is the absolute wrong way to go about it.

The morality aspect should be as far from this discussion as possible. We will lose more people if that gets injected into the discourse.

This is a fair comment.  I used to see the causes and the morality question as separate issues, but now I'm not so sure.  I think it is at least feasible that the increased moral acceptance of suicide could be a contributing factor to the rise in suicides.  Suppose we were to do a study on people with mental health issues but have not attempted suicide nor seriously planned it vs those who have attempted suicide.  Do you think its plausible that we might find higher rates of the belief that suicide is not immoral among the group who has planned and attempted suicide?  I think it is plausible and at least worth consideration.

 

4 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

yeah, i think it raises a question of whether or not a concept of morality can exist in an irrational mind. i don't think it does. mental illness is not really all that concerned with morality.

Mental illness may not be, but the decision to commit suicide among those with mental health issues may be impacted by the morality question.  

 

2 minutes ago, HenryJames said:

Because he thinks people who commit suicide are going to hell?

I don't believe that.  Why not try engaging in a cordial discussion?

 

2 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Yes. 

Until we honestly address mental illness (whether temporary or permanent) as an ILLNESS, we will never fix the problem. 

Can you imagine telling a cancer patient to  "get over it" or "toughen up"?

This seems to conflate mental illness with the decision to commit suicide.  

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

Just now, Aphelion said:

This seems to conflate mental illness with the decision to commit suicide.  

Not sure I get your point. Do you think sane people commit suicide? 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Not sure I get your point. Do you think sane people commit suicide? 

Not all people with mental health issues commit suicide.  Suppose group A are all persons with mental health issues and group B are all people who attempt suicide.  Even if we say that if a person is in group B, then they are in group A, this does not make the two groups equivalents.  

Edited June 8, 2018 by Guest

[deadshank 24653]

I contemplate the morality of suicide.  (I’m not suicidal and quite a happy person).

I get suicide for those that are terminally ill and understand suicide for those that are mentally ill. 

I do not understand suicide for those that get in a personal or, say, a financial bind.  Anecdote:  A guy I knew went broke and was on the line for some serious debt and offed himself, leaving behind a wife and 2 girls.  To me, that route seemed selfish, pride filled and immoral.  

What says Surly?

[Bash Riprock 1695]

Years ago I was a heavy heavy drinker. I made a mess of my life because of the drinking and irrational behavior. But the drinking was just a means to stop the horrible anxiety I had. If I wasn't able to drink or medicate the anxiety and depression took over my life. It took over my thoughts. It determined how my day would go. It was a battlefield of the mind every fucking day. At times I realized I was contemplating suicide, just so that pain and the battle would stop. I wanted it to stop so bad. I didn't think about suicide as in "This will show them" or "So, you are done with me, well bye" it was more to stop the round the clock hell my own mind was putting myself through. 

Today I have a strong spiritual life and I meditate. I never thought I would meditate. Not because I thought it was for new age type people, but I didn't think I could sit still and let go, but my god does it help. 

How I learned meditation

You never know what's going through someone's head when they commit suicide or even think about it. They are not rational and have a fight or flight mentality and they just seem to go on the flight option because they have been fighting for so long. 

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

4 minutes ago, Aphelion said:

Not all people with mental health issues commit suicide.  Suppose group A are all persons with mental health issues and group B are all people who attempt suicide.  Even if we say that if a person is in group B, then they are in group A, this does not make the two groups equivalents.  

Not all people who smoke get cancer. Still don't see your point.

Mental illness is not a A or B scenario. There are varying levels of depression/mental illness and how people cope. 

[Longhornmaniac8 255]

1 minute ago, Aphelion said:

This is a fair comment.  I used to see the causes and the morality question as separate issues, but now I'm not so sure.  I think it is at least feasible that the increased moral acceptance of suicide could be a contributing factor to the rise in suicides.  Suppose we were to do a study on people with mental health issues but have not attempted suicide nor seriously planned it vs those who have attempted suicide.  Do you think its plausible that we might find higher rates of the belief that suicide is not immoral among the group who has planned and attempted suicide?  I think it is plausible and at least worth consideration.

 

Mental illness may not be, but the decision to commit suicide among those with mental health issues may be impacted by the morality question.  

With due respect, you're begging the question. You've got a hypothesis (which I suppose is a fine one to have), but then making assumptions about something that is far from proven (which, to your credit, you acknowledge). 

I really think you're underplaying the mental aspect of it in an attempt to "overplay" the moral aspect of it. You seem to be arguing (correct me if I'm wrong) that mental illness isn't the distal cause of suicide; or that there's some process between the two that can change the outcome (and it seems to me that you're arguing that is a sense of morality).

I have as much evidence to support my claims as you do (i.e., 0), but I don't think people who are mentally ill enough to be considering suicide would stop and think "is this the moral thing to do?" before carrying out the act.

To your question about rates of belief on the moral nature of suicide, I think it's possible. I also don't think it matters at all. People who have planned and attempted suicide are far more likely to be compassionate and empathetic to others in that mental space. 

Another thing worth pointing out is that morality is far from a uniform idea. There is no universal morality. I think there are some basic tenets of any human morality, which is why irrespective of one's upbringing, humans tend to be have the same way (and seek the same things in life [e.g. life, love, prosperity, meaning, companionship, friendship, etc.]), but two people can have different views on, say, suicide, with each coming from a "sound" moral perspective.

[TwiceHorn 31503]

27 minutes ago, bernorange said:

I haven't put a whole lot of thought into this subject, much less any research, but my superficial impression (with respect to your first question) is that there is a culmination of significant inflection points in recent history (9/11, Iraq war lies, the 2008 financial crisis, Snowden/NSAA revelations, etc.) have contributed to shattering a lot perceptions about the world we live in (and not for the better).  I think the current political climate that allowed Trump to win the GOP primary and the POTUS is also reflective of a tipping point in the perception that the political institutions/actors which rule the day have lost the public trust.  Hopelessness for the future - whether considering personal economic circumstances, or wider societal/political issues (or both) could be contributing to higher rates of depression/suicide.

Yes, I think there is a lot of validity to this.  In the last decade or so, the "American Dream" in many aspects has been truly shattered and that is having dire effects on big chunks of the population. 

[Helobious 9462]

5 minutes ago, deadshank said:

I contemplate the morality of suicide.  (I’m not suicidal and quite a happy person).

I get suicide for those that are terminally ill and understand suicide for those that are mentally ill. 

I do not understand suicide for those that get in a personal or, say, a financial bind.  Anecdote:  A guy I knew went broke and was on the line for some serious debt and offed himself, leaving behind a wife and 2 girls.  To me, that route seemed selfish, pride filled and immoral.  

What says Surly?

I'm someone that has dealt heavily with suicidal thoughts in the past. I can tell you that for me, I had convinced myself that the "immoral" thing to do was to continue on living. I had that much self-hate. You tell yourself that you're a burden on everyone you love and it's selfish to be alive, because when you die everyone will be better off. You can't possibly imagine a future where things are better or even different, so you lose all hope. 

[Celery Man 20970]

I went into a deep nosedive with alcoholism and spent a lot of time on the bottom a) not thinking that I could work my way out of it and b) wishing that I could just pull the ripcord and be out of it.  I was wrong in thinking that it was too late or otherwise impossible for me to recover.  Further, the toll my addiction had taken on me even just from a biochemical perspective made it impossible for me to feel anything but either numb or extreme panic/anxiety.  Seeing happiness or love portrayed in TV and movies looked like bullshit, and my own memories of those feelings just made me more depressed since I had lost the capacity for it and didn't think it would ever come back.  I was wrong about a lot of things, but the logic I was using in thinking that suicide would be the best option if I could figure out a way to have someone get my dog and for my family to think it was an accident still seems sound.

 

I'm mostly just describing my experience with that kind of thinking, although I guess if there was something that could have brought me back from the brink other than my own fear of actually driving my car full speed into a wall or off a cliff it would have been if someone convinced me that it was possible to recover.  As it is, it was getting cornered and forced to receive help that got me on a path towards rehabilitation.

 

*edit* oh yeah, I started writing that thinking about the discussion of mental health and suicide.  obviously I was going through a mental health crisis (and alcoholism, to whatever extend you want to separate out the mental health aspect and the physical parts of it).  But I wasn't crazy in the sense that I was being illogical.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Celery Man

[TwiceHorn 31503]

1 minute ago, Celery Man said:

I went into a deep nosedive with alcoholism and spent a lot of time on the bottom a) not thinking that I could work my way out of it and b) wishing that I could just pull the ripcord and be out of it.  I was wrong in thinking that it was too late or otherwise impossible for me to recover.  Further, the toll my addiction had taken on me even just from a biochemical perspective made it impossible for me to feel anything but either numb or extreme panic/anxiety.  Seeing happiness or love portrayed in TV and movies looked like bullshit, and my own memories of those feelings just made me more depressed since I had lost the capacity for it and didn't think it would ever come back.  I was wrong about a lot of things, but the logic I was using in thinking that suicide would be the best option if I could figure out a way to have someone get my dog and for my family to think it was an accident still seems sound.

 

I'm mostly just describing my experience with that kind of thinking, although I guess if there was something that could have brought me back from the brink other than my own fear of actually driving my car full speed into a wall or off a cliff it would have been if someone convinced me that it was possible to recover.  As it is, it was getting cornered and forced to receive help that got me on a path towards rehabilitation.

It's kind of a strange conundrum between those who seek or accept help for mental illness and those who do not, or do not continue on the path prescribed by those who help.  Similar conundrum with those who commit suicide and those who do not.  Some folks are sicker than others, as they say.

[Longhornmaniac8 255]

6 minutes ago, deadshank said:

I contemplate the morality of suicide.  (I’m not suicidal and quite a happy person).

I get suicide for those that are terminally ill and understand suicide for those that are mentally ill. 

I do not understand suicide for those that get in a personal or, say, a financial bind.  Anecdote:  A guy I knew went broke and was on the line for some serious debt and offed himself, leaving behind a wife and 2 girls.  To me, that route seemed selfish, pride filled and immoral.  

What says Surly?

The result may be immoral, but you're assuming that he was acting rationally. Suicide in cases like that is not rational. It is an irrational response to [XYZ]. 

I just think people of sound rational mind (myself included) can't fully understand what it's like to be suicidal, and approaching it in any way from a rational perspective will leave more questions than it answers.

[MissingInAction 25110]

The OP sounds like a judgey Baptist. Prolly thinks rape victims brought it on themselves. 

[hayden_horn 11362]

16 minutes ago, Longhornmaniac8 said:

 

I have as much evidence to support my claims as you do (i.e., 0), but I don't think people who are mentally ill enough to be considering suicide would stop and think "is this the moral thing to do?" before carrying out the act.

actually, i would argue that many do actually ask this question and somehow land at a "yes."

[Longhornmaniac8 255]

2 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

actually, i would argue that many do actually ask this question and somehow land at a "yes."

I get where you're coming from, but I don't know if "morality" is the right word to describe the thought process. I think they may decide that it is the "right" thing to do, but it has a fundamentally different connotation to me than "morality." Which, admittedly, is weird as I typically think of morality as, simply put, a sense of right and wrong. It could be the overtly religious undertones OP had that I'm pushing back on.

['stache 21822]

I'm out on this discussion.  I have difficult, sometimes overwhelming social anxiety, anger, and I think borderline depression at times.  But I've never seriously contemplated suicide.  I can't imagine what it takes for someone to get to that state of mind.  I'm sure sometimes it is purely a selfish decision from sane rational people, and I want to judge and say fuck that guy.  But nobody can ever know what is going on in someone else's mind, so I defer to compassion and acceptance that I'll never understand, and I therefore intentionally try to avoid passing judgment on anyone who commits suicide.  I have not anyone close to me commit suicide though, so there's no telling how it would make me feel in that situation.  I want to think I would feel the same way, but I just can't know for sure.  Thus, I also try not to judge those who feel angry and abandoned when someone close to them commits suicide.  I just have very little to add to this conversation, but I find it fascinating in several respects. 

[cactusflinthead 27601]

I thought that added something. We're certainly not worse for it.

[XYZ 2154]

Do you have to be mentally ill in order to contemplate suicide?

[TwiceHorn 31503]

I think morality represents the highest order of human thinking and most of the time, those that are suicidal are exhibiting something other than the highest order of human thought.

Edit:  This isn't a criticism of those depressed, otherwise suffering from mental illness, and/or considering suicide.  It's just an observation and perhaps a suggestion that the morality of suicide is an academic question that has little practical application.

Edited June 8, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[crash_davis 23114]

morality is a luxury for the living.  

 

i'm pretty sure that last thing going through a person's mind when mired in darkness is the question of morality.

 

a person i know had issues with depression, i say this with the most optimism.  wrongly i blamed  him stating on multiple times that the way you feel is a choice issue.  simply choose to feel better.  how fucking hard is it??????  how fucking wrong it was! 

i was against medication thinking it is a crutch.  we are stronger than that, we don't need crutches.  i am a fucking idiot.

 

after finally getting on medication, he best described to me what it felt.  imagine waking up every morning feeling like you have a dark cloud over everything.  it darkens the way you feel, the way you interact with others, the way you interpret and experience everything, the way you think about yourself, your future, your present, your past.  it's a struggle every second of every moment of every day.  after going on medication, the person stated with joy and crying that the dark cloud went away.  he's not experiencing life through a dark colored filter.  

 

i then learned depression has nothing to do with me, his friends, his family, or even him.  no one wants to feel like shit every second of every day.  it's a disease.  

 

the change in him is night and day.  smiles more, interacts more, more joy, more secure, more comfortable in his own skin.  i pray every day that it stays and that this peace is permanent.  i worry that he has the strength to maintain this peace and that the darkness doesn't over consume in a moment of weakness.  all it takes is a moment.

Edited June 8, 2018 by crash_davis

[bernorange 8362]

10 minutes ago, 'stache said:

... I have not anyone close to me commit suicide though, ...

Thankfully, I have not either, but your post reminded me of my childhood.  While none of the actors involved were "close to me", I did attend a High School at a time where there were a rash of suicides.  So many that the national media sent reporters to roam the hallways and interview students about a rumored "suicide pact".  I knew Gary Shivers more or less, but not as a friend, much less a close friend. 

Also, a neighbor across the street from my home killed himself in his garage (carbon monoxide) while I was at school.  I walked right by his house on the way home that day.

[bernorange 8362]

4 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

... i am a fucking idiot. ...

Don't beat yourself up about it.  I've walked the same journey.  It's really hard to grok a different perspective until you've had some first person or close second person experience to guide you.  It's pure brilliance when someone (or some group) creates media (books, movies, etc.) that can successfully convey the reality of a situation with enough clarity to have the same impact as a real world experience.

[Reagan1k 3024]

I've thought a lot about this in sobriety.  When I was in active alcoholism, I wanted to die.  I did not want to kill myself but consciously wished for an external source to end my suffering and that of my family.  I'd drive 71 or 29 on the way through the hill  country and wish for a truck to swerve into my lane and take me out.  Fuck, a meteorite or bolt of lighting would have been just as good.  I'd be gone, my family would be financially secure, and not have the burden of suicide survivor-ship layered on top of their general grief.

I'm not sure if that made me suicidal in a clinical sense, but I am now much more empathetic and sympathetic to those in that state.

In general a key factor at play here is the confluence of increased mental illness coupled with a general shift toward self-seeking and selfishness in society as a whole.

Medical community aside, I think social media and other forces that are at play in how we interact with and view each other puts those at risk in a constant state of comparing their insides to the appearance of others' outsides if you will.  Couple that with a general callous attitude from those with whom the ill interact and we are left with a situation that more gas is thrown on a fire that's always been there for some segment of out society.

I have no answers and my thoughts are clearly just my musings, but I don't think this is going to get better until we have a shift in the societal attitudes toward kindness and empathy that we seem to desperately lack in general human interactions.

[bernorange 8362]

Just now, Reagan1k said:

.. I don't think this is going to get better until we have a shift in the societal attitudes toward kindness and empathy that we seem to desperately lack in general human interactions.

 

[Reagan1k 3024]

Well, its a start anyway!

[TwiceHorn 31503]

22 minutes ago, Reagan1k said:

I've thought a lot about this in sobriety.  When I was in active alcoholism, I wanted to die.  I did not want to kill myself but consciously wished for an external source to end my suffering and that of my family.  I'd drive 71 or 29 on the way through the hill  country and wish for a truck to swerve into my lane and take me out.  Fuck, a meteorite or bolt of lighting would have been just as good.  I'd be gone, my family would be financially secure, and not have the burden of suicide survivor-ship layered on top of their general grief.

I'm not sure if that made me suicidal in a clinical sense, but I am now much more empathetic and sympathetic to those in that state.

In general a key factor at play here is the confluence of increased mental illness coupled with a general shift toward self-seeking and selfishness in society as a whole.

Medical community aside, I think social media and other forces that are at play in how we interact with and view each other puts those at risk in a constant state of comparing their insides to the appearance of others' outsides if you will.  Couple that with a general callous attitude from those with whom the ill interact and we are left with a situation that more gas is thrown on a fire that's always been there for some segment of out society.

I have no answers and my thoughts are clearly just my musings, but I don't think this is going to get better until we have a shift in the societal attitudes toward kindness and empathy that we seem to desperately lack in general human interactions.

Very good post.  I have learned to avoid terms like "self-centered" and "self-seeking" because of their pejorative nature.  I have come to prefer "inward-dwelling" and "outward-dwelling," because they are less pejorative and more descriptive.

 

In most mental illness, there is a certain element of "inward-dwellingness" that contributes to the pathology.  As we well know, it's critical to "get out of your own head," and one of the best ways to do that is to make yourself of service to others.  The degree of mental illness can make it extremely difficult to shift away from inward-dwellingness.  But as far as I know, the prescription for recovery from any mental illness includes an effort to become more outward-dwelling.

Edited June 8, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[Reagan1k 3024]

Great points and well-put.....I was more gearing my description of self-seeking attitudes to describe those with whom the mentally ill interact vs. the ill themselves.

The guy flipping you off in the parking lot or the acquaintance or friend who is dismissive of feelings other than their own that gives the mentally ill a sense of isolation or worthlessness.

 

[Newdoc 3448]

This should be and always has been a significant issue in our country and it seems only when high profile celebrities do it are there good discussions on how to combat the issue.  And I am afraid we won't get a 14 page thread on how "immediate" action should be taken and "what are we going to do to protect the children."  Suicide doesn't seem to hold the public captivated and make the 24 hour news cycle but it kills far more people than homicide. And to me, a nihilistic homicide or taking your own life in a non-terminal illness is a tragic death and should be prioritized from a public health and policy perspective.

And I think this continues to point at our collective lack of fortitude to fund and prioritize mental health services in our country.  We need to eliminate the stigmata about suicide, depression and other high risk mental illness.  It is a complex problem to say the least. It's sad to hear about Spade and Bourdain but just as equally to read about the 13 or 14 year old from a high school less than 10 miles from your own home.

[Newdoc 3448]

2 minutes ago, Reagan1k said:

The guy flipping you off in the parking lot

Sorry about that.

[TwiceHorn 31503]

2 minutes ago, Reagan1k said:

Great points and well-put.....I was more gearing my description of self-seeking attitudes to describe those with whom the mentally ill interact vs. the ill themselves.

The guy flipping you off in the parking lot or the acquaintance or friend who is dismissive of feelings other than their own that gives the mentally ill a sense of isolation or worthlessness.

 

Oh absolutely.  I have no qualms using selfish bastard and similar terms among our own community.  But in working with newbs and those without our gallows humor, and those outside the community, I have adopted these terms.

 

We'd all be so much better off with more outward-dwellingness.

[Reagan1k 3024]

1 minute ago, Newdoc said:

Sorry about that.

And you parked like shit too.....I'm posting the pic now!

[XYZ 2154]

So suicide = mental illness? There’s no chance of a person with a clear mind to come to the decision that he/she doesn’t want to live anymore?

[Reagan1k 3024]

1 minute ago, XYZ said:

So suicide = mental illness? There’s no chance of a person with a clear mind to come to the decision that he/she doesn’t want to live anymore?

I'm sure you can find cases, but that's contrary to our normal instincts - one of which is survival.

There are one-offs in every discussion for sure.

 

[Newdoc 3448]

9 minutes ago, XYZ said:

So suicide = mental illness? There’s no chance of a person with a clear mind to come to the decision that he/she doesn’t want to live anymore?

Not an absolute but statistics do lean that the majority have an underlying mental illness. Often, that mental illness is undiagnosed for various reasons. That's why I said we have to get away from the stigma and punitive factors that envelop those who seek help for mental illness.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Newdoc
cuz my fingers don't keep up with my brain

[XYZ 2154]

I don’t know, I just feel that if we want to discuss suicide, we must peel off some of these words that have been attached to it by society who knows how long ago. Words such as immoral, reprehensible, or “fucked up in the head”.

[XYZ 2154]

2 hours ago, Aphelion said:

I think that it is immoral under the vast majority of circumstances that most people are under when they commit suicide.

Why?

[Uncle Nate 2097]

16 minutes ago, XYZ said:

So suicide = mental illness? There’s no chance of a person with a clear mind to come to the decision that he/she doesn’t want to live anymore?

I think this is a very good point.

On a different note, how often do you think the person committing suicide is doing it to get back at people, or to put it a different way, to punish them for how they treated (or didn't treat) you?  To hurt them...to make them regret their actions?  I have to think that's got to be the root motivator in for many of them...the thought that they only way you are going to get their attention is to do this.  Then they will be sorry and they will feel sorry for me.

Especially the teenagers and those who commit suicide where a failed relationship has occurred.  

[El Diablo 4232]

Just some random thoughts here... I watched the end of "The Shawshank Redemption" the other night, the part with the Wardens suicide. Clearly a case of "They're not taking me alive, I'm going out on my own terms". 

I had two friends commit suicide within a year of each other about a decade ago. One an alcoholic facing hard time and the other a drug addict who couldn't see any other way out.

We had two suspected suicides just in the last couple of days that made local news, one a 14 year old girl who apparently shot herself in the chest with a handgun and the other a 31 year old male who jumped off of a cliff.

Only in the case of the young girl would I think it possible that social media might have played some role but I can't deny that it has been a game changer in many lives and for the worse.

[Uncle Nate 2097]

My cousin's husband killed himself one morning after an especially heated argument.  But he had mental issues and it was spotty if he was utilizing his meds.  I just found the timing interesting coming off a bad fight with the wife.

A friend of mine from my youth committed suicide back in January (he was 45)...and apparently he had some legal trouble and his reputation has been disparaged in the local press as a result (the legal process hadn't played out yet...but I think it was one of those situations that even if he had been found innocent of the fraud he was accused of, the bad press had already maligned him enough the previous few months that he may have felt his reputation would never recover....or he was guilty of the charges, either way).

I think I'm o.k. mentally, but I will be honest that either scenario...(1) hurting the people (or soliciting sympathy from them) for hurting me....or (2) my reputation is now so irreparably damaged that nothing I could do would ever repair it...could cause me to empathize with these people who felt the need to take their own life.  I hope that's not an indictment on my mental state...but I totally get it.  Two things would keep me from doing it.  The first is not wanting to hurt the ones I love who would be hurt the most and the second would be my fear that suicide is an unforgiveable sin (how could I repent at that point?)

 

 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Not all people who smoke get cancer. Still don't see your point.

Mental illness is not a A or B scenario. There are varying levels of depression/mental illness and how people cope. 

I asked a question on the equivalency of dying from cancer and dying by suicide and you answered the question with claims on treating mental illness as an illness and commentary on shaming people with cancer to highlight the absurdity of shaming people with mental illness.  You didn't mention suicide; it seems then that you view the two as equivalent since I asked a question about suicide but in your early responses you only reference mental illness.   I understand that suicide is powerfully linked with mental illness, but that doesn't make them interchangeable.  It would be like a person asking about Texas and the person answering doesn't mention Texas and instead gives comments about America in general.  

 

3 hours ago, Longhornmaniac8 said:

With due respect, you're begging the question. You've got a hypothesis (which I suppose is a fine one to have), but then making assumptions about something that is far from proven (which, to your credit, you acknowledge). 

I really think you're underplaying the mental aspect of it in an attempt to "overplay" the moral aspect of it. You seem to be arguing (correct me if I'm wrong) that mental illness isn't the distal cause of suicide; or that there's some process between the two that can change the outcome (and it seems to me that you're arguing that is a sense of morality).

I have as much evidence to support my claims as you do (i.e., 0), but I don't think people who are mentally ill enough to be considering suicide would stop and think "is this the moral thing to do?" before carrying out the act.

To your question about rates of belief on the moral nature of suicide, I think it's possible. I also don't think it matters at all. People who have planned and attempted suicide are far more likely to be compassionate and empathetic to others in that mental space. 

Another thing worth pointing out is that morality is far from a uniform idea. There is no universal morality. I think there are some basic tenets of any human morality, which is why irrespective of one's upbringing, humans tend to be have the same way (and seek the same things in life [e.g. life, love, prosperity, meaning, companionship, friendship, etc.]), but two people can have different views on, say, suicide, with each coming from a "sound" moral perspective.

I think that mental illness is definitely a primary cause of suicide and it may even be a necessary condition (although I'm not certain this is the case, but for the sake of this particular sub-argument I'm willing to assume it).  But it is not a sufficient condition as not everyone with mental illness commits suicide.  The decision to commit suicide is a decision.  This decision is made under a whole slew of mental and sociological conditions which I do not presume to understand in full; but I think it is clear that mental illness plays a major role in these mental conditions.  But all the same it is a decision that I think should be powerfully discouraged and looked down upon as a poor decision.  

The word "moral" has many connotations these days and often invokes religious belief.  What I mean by a decision being moral or not is equivalent with its answer to the question "is it the right thing to do?" and the question of morality is equivalent to "what ought a man to do?"  I don't think a man ought to kill himself, even if he is mentally ill.  

As to whether or not one's belief in the morality of suicide has an impact on their decision to commit, the truth is I have no idea.  It's interesting though that even to question the role of morality in a person's decision to commit suicide is off-putting to some.  

 

3 hours ago, MissingInAction said:

The OP sounds like a judgey Baptist. Prolly thinks rape victims brought it on themselves. 

Counter point

 

1 hour ago, XYZ said:

Why?

As stated above, the word "moral" has many connotations these days and often invokes religious belief.  I mean it simply as "is it the right thing to do?" and the question of morality as "what ought a man to do?"  I don't think a man ought to kill himself, even if he is mentally ill.  

Edited June 8, 2018 by Guest

[Celery Man 20970]

52 minutes ago, El Diablo said:

Only in the case of the young girl would I think it possible that social media might have played some role but I can't deny that it has been a game changer in many lives and for the worse.

 

I think social media with kids can play a big role inasmuch as vicious bullying could be the kind of thing to cause someone that young to do something so rash, and social media is great for that and difficult for parents to know about.

There's a more subtle way that I think that can work out with older people, as a way to taper off of meaningful social interactions until they're such a limited part of your life that they don't come in as a real deterrent to the thinking that killing yourself is a reasonable choice.  Maybe back to the nihilism bit - say you're in your late twenties/early thirties, you don't believe in much of anything, the idea of the American dream isn't something you think you can or should chase, you're not off forming a tidy little nuclear family, you interact with your parents mostly as a living disappointment because you're not amounting to much and aren't making grandbabies.  You don't see any future in your career, even if it was something that you wanted or aspired towards.  You're massively in debt and don't see a way of getting out from under that because you're not making much money.  You've lost connection with a lot of your high school and college friends, you live in an urban area but stay in getting a small drip of social interaction shitposting on facebook and trolling reddit (or shit, arguing on surly), masturbating to internet porn.  But that's not real.  Maybe you're self medicating.  You're pessimistic about everything, it's all a chore, everything seems pointless, you have no direction, there's no longer anything to look forward to.  Fuck it.

People talk about suicide being an irrational choice - there can be a sick rationality to it.  If you look at life from a certain perspective, a lot of it is just as easily irrational as rational.  Why do I want to succeed in my job, why should give a shit about music, why would I want to make a little version of me to run about, what if I had no love in my life - what would really be the rationality behind living another fifty years if I had gotten to a point where I was pessimistic about everything it is to be human?

[XYZ 2154]

20 minutes ago, Aphelion said:

I don't think a man ought to kill himself, even if he is mentally ill.  

But why? There has to be a reason.

[El Diablo 4232]

As for the increasing numbers of suicides I haven't looked at those/the data. I would hope it has been well researched and I would like to know more about that research as sometimes studies have a bias to them that isn't readily apparent.

Anyone here looked into that aspect of this discussion?