Suicide: Discussion of the Phenomenon

Judge Roybeanbag · June 9, 2018

Her kIds are doing great, but I worry about them constantly.

Judge Roybeanbag · June 9, 2018

There was a point I was in that place of no return, but I got out of it. I still get depressed and bummmed out, shit, losing bourdain and my burro in one weekend is a bitch. But I want to live. Want to see my grandkids, listen to music and fish with my brethren. Life is a bitch and I intend to wrestle the fuck out of it.

TwiceHorn · June 10, 2018

46 minutes ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

There was a point I was in that place of no return, but I got out of it. I still get depressed and bummmed out, shit, losing bourdain and my burro in one weekend is a bitch. But I want to live. Want to see my grandkids, listen to music and fish with my brethren. Life is a bitch and I intend to wrestle the fuck out of it.

Oh hell, sorry about your burro. Keep on wrasslin.

Celery Man · June 10, 2018

1 hour ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

There was a point I was in that place of no return, but I got out of it. I still get depressed and bummmed out, shit, losing bourdain and my burro in one weekend is a bitch. But I want to live. Want to see my grandkids, listen to music and fish with my brethren. Life is a bitch and I intend to wrestle the fuck out of it.

condolences

DeweyCox · June 10, 2018

I’ve had a long history of kidney stones. I’ve passed many and several made me feel like I was dying. Only one caused so much pain that I seriously lost my mind until I passed the stone...then everything went right back to normal. I think my brain just couldn’t handle the overload and was desperate for any immediate solution. I seriously considered putting my .40 to my head and ending the agony. The suicidal thoughts were powerfully urgent but I did consider my belief in God and certain scripture came to mind. I considered my family and how awfully painful that end would be for them. I certainly felt it was a moral decision.

I doubt that this story means anything to anyone other than me. But, for me, it remains a reference point for perspective. Again, the urge to end it was real, however out of the blue it came or how quickly it was squashed. The fact that there are people who have suffered so much more for so much longer...we’ll, it breaks my heart. Especially when they feel without hope or reason to persevere.

How do so many get to that point? How do so many miss the signs or fail to successfully intervene? What about all the cognitive dissonance?

I’m going to bed. Y’all fix this mess.

June 10, 2018

12 hours ago, Celery Man said:

suicide isn’t the "jogging" in this analogy, it’s the being a 300 pound diabetic. You're not talking about promoting jogging, you're talking about the immorality of being a 300 pound diabetic.

being suicidal is more complex than not wanting to pay for an uber, which is about as complex (at this point) as drunk driving is

yeah, but it would be valid to counter with a disagreement on your second point, that societally emphasizing the immorality of drunk driving will decrease the rate of drunk driving. I don’t actually completely disagree with that in this case, but if we flip back to talking about suicide, I absolutely do. And I don't think being suicidal is comparable to being racist. Being racist is holding an immoral ethos, being suicidal is being mired in depression/desperation and seeing no hope of recovery. Maybe there are other modes - maybe people who commit suicide rashly out of an "I'll show them" feeling could be approached differently, but I don't feel like I have any understanding of that mindset. I still don't think that the "oh that would be immoral" approach would help here given that what they're doing is already implicitly immoral (revenge?), but maybe it's useful in this discussion to clarify that I'm pretty much talking about people who are massively depressed and see suicide as the only way to end their own suffering.

For your last point, I think that suicide is different than racism and drunk driving. And more like being 300 pounds. The solution to drunk driving is 1) having a convenient alternative (congrats society, we did it) and 2) enough shame that people would rather spend $15 on an uber than be called a piece of shit. For racism, the less society accepts racism the less people engage in it, because social promotion of those ideas is where the fuck it comes from in the first place. It’s complicated by the fact that there are real class and culture differences between races, but it’s a marathon not a sprint.

Suicide is being a 300 pound diabetic. I think we should talk about jogging and the ways that diabetes can be cured (which in this instance, it can). And in this instance calling the 300 pound diabetic immoral and bad just makes them pick up the sack of marshmallows cause that’s why they’re here in the first place.

An analogue to being suicidal that we do societally shame is being an alcoholic. I think that shaming alcoholism is.... while it is not helpful to someone who is deep in practicing alcoholism, it probably does at the very least prevent some subset of the population from engaging in behaviors that spiral into full on alcohol abuse disorder. The set of behaviors that precede alcohol abuse disorder (which many would argue are "early trouble signs" rather than "the cause" as it related to alcoholism) are a lot tidier to look at than suicide. So, I don't think that shaming alcoholism is as completely pointless as shaming suicide, but I also do not think that it is an effective means of minimizing its impact or helping those in risk, beyond a very small subset which may be outweighed by the negative effects the shaming of it has on people who now need help to get out. For instance, people who are suffering alcoholics but who are ashamed to admit it to their family and loved ones, and then never get the actual help they absolutely need to recover.

as long as I'm dissecting your post and we're having a bit of a back and forth, want to make sure that I'm saying this is a stimulating discussion for me and everything is intended as.... respectful disagreements not flinging shit or whatever

I agree that suicide is not jogging in the analogy. The analogy was intended as follows:

Problem: excessive number of people are contemplating suicide - Potential mitigation: increased awareness & discussion on why it is not ethically permissible to commit suicide.

Problem: excessive number of people are obese - Potential mitigation: promotion of regular jogging.

The point of the analogy is that while most of the arguments in this thread for the ineffectiveness of morality on suicide reduction are focused on those who are already contemplating suicide, the primary benefit of the morality discussion would be for the prevention of people getting to this stage - not necessarily (although in some cases it may be) as an aid to people who are already at this stage. Similarly, routine jogging is largely effective in reducing obesity because it prevents one from ever getting to 300 lb in the first place. In other words, the focus of the discussion seems to be on how to treat those in an advanced final stage, but no consideration seems to be given on the possible effects of increased education on the ethics of suicide on preventing one from ever getting to that stage. The primary purpose of the analogy was to highlight this fact.

Regarding the analogies of drunk driving and racism, they were not intended as perfect isomorphisms with suicide. I do understand that they have their significant differences. The point is that most everyone knows that it is a violation of ethical principles to be a racist and to drink and drive. Most everyone knows this because it is consistently taught throughout society. Does everyone know with appropriate emphasis that it is a violation of ethical principles to commit suicide? I don't think so; even in this thread there is reluctance to agree with this point. If it is the case that it is a violation of ethical principles to commit suicide, and I believe that this is clearly the case, then I don't see why this should be dismissed or suppressed. Of course this is a sensitive issue and we need to treat the people effected by this with sensitivity and respect. But we also need to speak truth. One can do both of these things.

Another point: saying that increased emphasis on the immorality will not be effective in reducing the rates of suicide does not answer the question on the ethics of suicide. The question is important even if it doesn't lead to a reduction. Again, why are we even trying to reduce the rate if we cannot say why one ought not commit suicide? Some folks may say that you don't need ethical arguments to know why suicide is bad and that it's obvious why suicide is bad because the person will miss out on relationships and other good things in life and that their loved ones will be distraught - but these are ethics based arguments (in this case, arguments rooted in consequentialism).

So I will ask you the following questions: (1) do you think it is ethical or unethical for one to commit suicide due to depression and what is your reasoning? (2) If you cannot say that it is unethical, then on what grounds can you attempt to convince one to who is contemplating suicide to not go through with it? (3) If you believe that it is unethical in all/many/most cases, then why be reticent to respectfully speak what you believe to be true?

Regarding respectfully disagreeing, I am of the same mind and my comments are also meant with respect. I typically don't engage those whose goal is thoughtless provocation; that's clearly not what you are doing.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Guest

June 10, 2018

When speaking of social impacts of suicide (and the analogy of alcoholism and addiction), there is also the influence that allows for an irrational and misinformed romanticism. Some may see suicide as an acceptable end in an attempt to equate themselves with other “tortured souls of genius and art otherworldly” and society in a lot of ways has helped the romantic ideal there with celebrity.

Judge Roybeanbag · June 10, 2018

23 minutes ago, OatmealRaisinCookie said:

When speaking of social impacts of suicide (and the analogy of alcoholism and addiction), there is also the influence that allows for an irrational and misinformed romanticism. Some may see suicide as an acceptable end in an attempt to equate themselves with other “tortured souls of genius and art otherworldly” and society in a lot of ways has helped the romantic ideal there with celebrity.

Agree that is a perception, too many people don’t understand it’s the enduring drudgery of life that makes it special. Sure there are those really fantastic moments, but they are the exception, and worth enduring the long haul.

Judge Roybeanbag · June 10, 2018

6 hours ago, DeweyCox said:

I’ve had a long history of kidney stones. I’ve passed many and several made me feel like I was dying. Only one caused so much pain that I seriously lost my mind until I passed the stone...then everything went right back to normal. I think my brain just couldn’t handle the overload and was desperate for any immediate solution. I seriously considered putting my .40 to my head and ending the agony. The suicidal thoughts were powerfully urgent but I did consider my belief in God and certain scripture came to mind. I considered my family and how awfully painful that end would be for them. I certainly felt it was a moral decision.

I doubt that this story means anything to anyone other than me. But, for me, it remains a reference point for perspective. Again, the urge to end it was real, however out of the blue it came or how quickly it was squashed. The fact that there are people who have suffered so much more for so much longer...we’ll, it breaks my heart. Especially when they feel without hope or reason to persevere.

How do so many get to that point? How do so many miss the signs or fail to successfully intervene? What about all the cognitive dissonance?

I’m going to bed. Y’all fix this mess.

I had a friend, from before kindergarten, who had this problem. He wanted to be a pilot, like his dad. It kept him from doing it, so yeah, I can’t relate from a pain standpoint, but I know a guy who had his whole life changed because of kidney stones.

TwiceHorn · June 10, 2018

1 hour ago, OatmealRaisinCookie said:

When speaking of social impacts of suicide (and the analogy of alcoholism and addiction), there is also the influence that allows for an irrational and misinformed romanticism. Some may see suicide as an acceptable end in an attempt to equate themselves with other “tortured souls of genius and art otherworldly” and society in a lot of ways has helped the romantic ideal there with celebrity.

Yeah, after considering the morality question, unlike some other issues, I don't think suicide has lost much moral compunction (unlike a lot of sexual issues, for example). Hardly anyone you talk to is going to say "Suicide, yeah, cool, do it!" It has almost universal negative connotations, if there is a bit more sympathy/empathy for those who do it.

I think the Catholic church has relaxed its stance on burial mass for suicides. I don't think that really evidences a relaxation of moral standards as much as acknowledgement that it is pretty cruel for the survivors.

Edited June 10, 2018 by TwiceHorn

Celery Man · June 10, 2018

8 hours ago, Aphelion said:

I agree that suicide is not jogging in the analogy. The analogy was intended as follows:

Problem: excessive number of people are contemplating suicide - Potential mitigation: increased awareness & discussion on why it is not ethically permissible to commit suicide.

Problem: excessive number of people are obese - Potential mitigation: promotion of regular jogging.

The point of the analogy is that while most of the arguments in this thread for the ineffectiveness of morality on suicide reduction are focused on those who are already contemplating suicide, the primary benefit of the morality discussion would be for the prevention of people getting to this stage - not necessarily (although in some cases it may be) as an aid to people who are already at this stage. Similarly, routine jogging is largely effective in reducing obesity because it prevents one from ever getting to 300 lb in the first place. In other words, the focus of the discussion seems to be on how to treat those in an advanced final stage, but no consideration seems to be given on the possible effects of increased education on the ethics of suicide on preventing one from ever getting to that stage. The primary purpose of the analogy was to highlight this fact.

Regarding the analogies of drunk driving and racism, they were not intended as perfect isomorphisms with suicide. I do understand that they have their significant differences. The point is that most everyone knows that it is a violation of ethical principles to be a racist and to drink and drive. Most everyone knows this because it is consistently taught throughout society. Does everyone know with appropriate emphasis that it is a violation of ethical principles to commit suicide? I don't think so; even in this thread there is reluctance to agree with this point. If it is the case that it is a violation of ethical principles to commit suicide, and I believe that this is clearly the case, then I don't see why this should be dismissed or suppressed. Of course this is a sensitive issue and we need to treat the people effected by this with sensitivity and respect.  But we also need to speak truth. One can do both of these things.

Another point: saying that increased emphasis on the immorality will not be effective in reducing the rates of suicide does not answer the question on the ethics of suicide. The question is important even if it doesn't lead to a reduction. Again, why are we even trying to reduce the rate if we cannot say why one ought not commit suicide? Some folks may say that you don't need ethical arguments to know why suicide is bad and that it's obvious why suicide is bad because the person will miss out on relationships and other good things in life and that their loved ones will be distraught - but these are ethics based arguments (in this case, arguments rooted in consequentialism).

So I will ask you the following questions: (1) do you think it is ethical or unethical for one to commit suicide due to depression and what is your reasoning? (2) If you cannot say that it is unethical, then on what grounds can you attempt to convince one to who is contemplating suicide to not go through with it? (3) If you believe that it is unethical in all/many/most cases, then why be reticent to respectfully speak what you believe to be true?

Regarding respectfully disagreeing, I am of the same mind and my comments are also meant with respect. I typically don't engage those whose goal is thoughtless provocation; that's clearly not what you are doing.

So, to go back to the jogging/obesity analogy, I don't think that more discussion around the impermissibility of suicide due to the ethics of it is relatable to jogging. In that it sounds like the difference here is that you think that reinforcing the immorality of suicide is something that would prevent people from becoming suicidal, and I don't think it would have ay effect on that at all. Or I guess, do you think it would have an effect on people becoming suicidal, or do you think it would have an effect on people actually committing suicide? I think it could have a small effect on the latter, but I'm mostly interested in thinking about how to attack the problem by preventing people from becoming suicidal and helping those that do become suicidal to recover.

For the questions,

(1) do you think it is ethical or unethical for one to commit suicide due to depression and what is your reasoning?

The last class I took on the kind of philosophical reasoning you're talking about was a 101 course my 1st semester at UT, and I remember a bit about the deontology vs utilitarianism as being roughly based on rules vs outcomes. The deontological approach holds that things are inherently moral or immoral (or something like that), utilitarian is what you seem to be talking about with consequentialism, where morality is more measured by outcomes. I often felt like one was often just a shortcut to the other. Or I guess, things that are morally right from a deontological perspective work out to on average also measuring out as bringing the most good from a utilitarian perspective, and the thought exercises where you put the two philosophies at odds with one another were contrived to the point of having no basis in reality or too focused on immediate outcomes to recognize that what looks like a positive utilitarian outcome would average out to a negative one over time. But that was 14 years ago and clearly you have a much firmer foundation in this type of thought - this is the roundabout way of saying that I think that some things are very black and white but that life is not that way and thinking about things from a utilitarian perspective is also illuminating. And so on the topic of 1, I would not say that it is always unethical to commit suicide, but I think that it is on the magnitude of "wrong" (which I maybe prefer over "unethical") to "OK" on the magnitude of 500:1. If there was a case where somebody cannot have any quality of life any longer and does not wish to proceed, I don't see that as wrong. But I think almost all suicidal people who think that way are absolutely wrong. But if that was actually the case, I don't think it would be wrong to want to end your life, and would actually be unethical for others in that person's life to demand that they continue to suffer so that they can avoid whatever it is that makes them uncomfortable about the person taking his/her own life.

(2) If you cannot say that it is unethical, then on what grounds can you attempt to convince one to who is contemplating suicide to not go through with it?

I would absolutely attempt someone to not go through with it on the grounds that the information that they have used to lead them to the conclusion that they should kill themselves is wrong. If you're dead inside and depressed and it seems like it will never pass and it goes on for ages, there is something medically wrong with you and you can receive help that will bring you back into life. If you think that nobody cares about you at all, you are wrong, or you are at least wrong that nobody can or will care (and are wrong to deprive yourself and others from the joy and life that you still have the capacity to bring to the world). If you are bottoming out in alcoholism or addiction, holy shit yes there is a way out and you can have a complete renaissance in your life. You can feel joy, you can have purpose, you can recover and then lead others out of the same pit that you are in. The information you are using to decide that killing yourself is the best or only option is incorrect, and you should not do it because it is a negative result where one is not necessary.

(3) If you believe that it is unethical in all/many/most cases, then why be reticent to respectfully speak what you believe to be true?

I'm not reticent to respectfully speak what I believe is true. Talking about suicide as a problem of morality or ethics to me seems mostly misguided and a little destructive. Misguided because I still strongly disagree that it will help anybody not become suicidal or help anybody recover from being suicidal. The moral implications of it is not connected to anything that causes people to be suicidal or causes them to recover from being suicidal. It may make some people pause for a bit as they consider taking action, but it may also have the opposite effect. People don't decide to become suicidal, they find themselves being suicidal. And so holding the notion that suicide is ethically wrong, that's not going to guide choices they make that cause them to become or not become suicidal. Those choices/actions/causes don't occur with the morality of suicide in mind. And so it's a somewhat fruitless angle to talk about the problem, in my opinion.

The other side of that is the part where someone commits suicide and people want to talk about how cowardly that is, or how much of a piece of shit that makes the person, etc. I think that my natural negative reaction to this kind of discussion about a suicide is based in my belief that it comes from a complete misunderstanding (or lack of understanding) of the state of mind someone is in who takes this action, and only serves to help the person saying it bury the uncomfortableness of the topic or action. Fuck that guy, what a piece of shit, now I don't have to think about how or why he came to be this way. I get it, I don't really care, but I think it stigmatizes "being suicidal" in a way that isn't helpful to productive discussion or people who are in this state getting help that they need. I think that if the broader discussion of suicide and what to do about it was largely based on the ethics around it, this voice would be the most powerful one and again, I think it is nonproductive and harmful.

XYZ · June 10, 2018

10 hours ago, Aphelion said:

I agree that suicide is not jogging in the analogy. The analogy was intended as follows:

Problem: excessive number of people are contemplating suicide - Potential mitigation: increased awareness & discussion on why it is not ethically permissible to commit suicide.

Problem: excessive number of people are obese - Potential mitigation: promotion of regular jogging.

The point of the analogy is that while most of the arguments in this thread for the ineffectiveness of morality on suicide reduction are focused on those who are already contemplating suicide, the primary benefit of the morality discussion would be for the prevention of people getting to this stage - not necessarily (although in some cases it may be) as an aid to people who are already at this stage. Similarly, routine jogging is largely effective in reducing obesity because it prevents one from ever getting to 300 lb in the first place. In other words, the focus of the discussion seems to be on how to treat those in an advanced final stage, but no consideration seems to be given on the possible effects of increased education on the ethics of suicide on preventing one from ever getting to that stage. The primary purpose of the analogy was to highlight this fact.

Regarding the analogies of drunk driving and racism, they were not intended as perfect isomorphisms with suicide. I do understand that they have their significant differences. The point is that most everyone knows that it is a violation of ethical principles to be a racist and to drink and drive. Most everyone knows this because it is consistently taught throughout society. Does everyone know with appropriate emphasis that it is a violation of ethical principles to commit suicide? I don't think so; even in this thread there is reluctance to agree with this point. If it is the case that it is a violation of ethical principles to commit suicide, and I believe that this is clearly the case, then I don't see why this should be dismissed or suppressed. Of course this is a sensitive issue and we need to treat the people effected by this with sensitivity and respect.  But we also need to speak truth. One can do both of these things.

Another point: saying that increased emphasis on the immorality will not be effective in reducing the rates of suicide does not answer the question on the ethics of suicide. The question is important even if it doesn't lead to a reduction. Again, why are we even trying to reduce the rate if we cannot say why one ought not commit suicide? Some folks may say that you don't need ethical arguments to know why suicide is bad and that it's obvious why suicide is bad because the person will miss out on relationships and other good things in life and that their loved ones will be distraught - but these are ethics based arguments (in this case, arguments rooted in consequentialism).

So I will ask you the following questions: (1) do you think it is ethical or unethical for one to commit suicide due to depression and what is your reasoning? (2) If you cannot say that it is unethical, then on what grounds can you attempt to convince one to who is contemplating suicide to not go through with it? (3) If you believe that it is unethical in all/many/most cases, then why be reticent to respectfully speak what you believe to be true?

Regarding respectfully disagreeing, I am of the same mind and my comments are also meant with respect. I typically don't engage those whose goal is thoughtless provocation; that's clearly not what you are doing.

Are you asking only Celery Man or anybody?

Judge Roybeanbag · June 10, 2018

29 minutes ago, XYZ said:

Are you asking only Celery Man or anybody?

I don’t know what the fuck he’s doing. If only my sister had jogged, she might not have eaten a bottle of pills, died in her bed and had to be identified 3 days after the stink had set in. Wow thanks. I’ll let her know.

Judge Roybeanbag · June 10, 2018

If you donate thousands to religious causes and write it off your taxes, your probably good.

Celery Man · June 10, 2018

I don’t know what the fuck he’s doing. If only my sister had jogged, she might not have eaten a bottle of pills, died in her bed and had to be identified 3 days after the stink had set in. Wow thanks. I’ll let her know.

Jogging is relative to being cripplingly overweight in the analogy. If people exercise and eat well, they can avoid that outcome. What is the “jogging” for being suicidal? I think it’s complex since there are different ways that people end up there. Although actually jogging isn’t a bad practice to pick up if you find yourself depressed.

June 11, 2018

14 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yeah, after considering the morality question, unlike some other issues, I don't think suicide has lost much moral compunction (unlike a lot of sexual issues, for example). Hardly anyone you talk to is going to say "Suicide, yeah, cool, do it!" It has almost universal negative connotations, if there is a bit more sympathy/empathy for those who do it.

I disagree, counselor. The vast majority of people will not say that they are cool with suicide, but what percentage of people will say that is unethical or wrong for someone to commit suicide or that one has an obligation to not do so? These are different things. For example, with drunk driving it is not merely that we are not cool with the idea of someone doing it and that we would try to stop someone from driving while drunk. It is stated without reservation or controversy that one has an obligation to not do so and that they are in the wrong if they do. In the conversations I've had, even though the view that suicide is a tragic loss is the same as it has been, people are less and less likely to see it as unethical to commit suicide or that they violated an obligation. You see this even in some of the responses in this thread.

11 hours ago, Celery Man said:

So, to go back to the jogging/obesity analogy, I don't think that more discussion around the impermissibility of suicide due to the ethics of it is relatable to jogging. In that it sounds like the difference here is that you think that reinforcing the immorality of suicide is something that would prevent people from becoming suicidal, and I don't think it would have ay effect on that at all. Or I guess, do you think it would have an effect on people becoming suicidal, or do you think it would have an effect on people actually committing suicide? I think it could have a small effect on the latter, but I'm mostly interested in thinking about how to attack the problem by preventing people from becoming suicidal and helping those that do become suicidal to recover.

For the questions,

(1) do you think it is ethical or unethical for one to commit suicide due to depression and what is your reasoning?

The last class I took on the kind of philosophical reasoning you're talking about was a 101 course my 1st semester at UT, and I remember a bit about the deontology vs utilitarianism as being roughly based on rules vs outcomes. The deontological approach holds that things are inherently moral or immoral (or something like that), utilitarian is what you seem to be talking about with consequentialism, where morality is more measured by outcomes. I often felt like one was often just a shortcut to the other. Or I guess, things that are morally right from a deontological perspective work out to on average also measuring out as bringing the most good from a utilitarian perspective, and the thought exercises where you put the two philosophies at odds with one another were contrived to the point of having no basis in reality or too focused on immediate outcomes to recognize that what looks like a positive utilitarian outcome would average out to a negative one over time. But that was 14 years ago and clearly you have a much firmer foundation in this type of thought - this is the roundabout way of saying that I think that some things are very black and white but that life is not that way and thinking about things from a utilitarian perspective is also illuminating. And so on the topic of 1, I would not say that it is always unethical to commit suicide, but I think that it is on the magnitude of "wrong" (which I maybe prefer over "unethical") to "OK" on the magnitude of 500:1. If there was a case where somebody cannot have any quality of life any longer and does not wish to proceed, I don't see that as wrong. But I think almost all suicidal people who think that way are absolutely wrong. But if that was actually the case, I don't think it would be wrong to want to end your life, and would actually be unethical for others in that person's life to demand that they continue to suffer so that they can avoid whatever it is that makes them uncomfortable about the person taking his/her own life.

(2) If you cannot say that it is unethical, then on what grounds can you attempt to convince one to who is contemplating suicide to not go through with it?

I would absolutely attempt someone to not go through with it on the grounds that the information that they have used to lead them to the conclusion that they should kill themselves is wrong. If you're dead inside and depressed and it seems like it will never pass and it goes on for ages, there is something medically wrong with you and you can receive help that will bring you back into life. If you think that nobody cares about you at all, you are wrong, or you are at least wrong that nobody can or will care (and are wrong to deprive yourself and others from the joy and life that you still have the capacity to bring to the world). If you are bottoming out in alcoholism or addiction, holy shit yes there is a way out and you can have a complete renaissance in your life. You can feel joy, you can have purpose, you can recover and then lead others out of the same pit that you are in. The information you are using to decide that killing yourself is the best or only option is incorrect, and you should not do it because it is a negative result where one is not necessary.

(3) If you believe that it is unethical in all/many/most cases, then why be reticent to respectfully speak what you believe to be true?

I'm not reticent to respectfully speak what I believe is true. Talking about suicide as a problem of morality or ethics to me seems mostly misguided and a little destructive. Misguided because I still strongly disagree that it will help anybody not become suicidal or help anybody recover from being suicidal. The moral implications of it is not connected to anything that causes people to be suicidal or causes them to recover from being suicidal. It may make some people pause for a bit as they consider taking action, but it may also have the opposite effect. People don't decide to become suicidal, they find themselves being suicidal. And so holding the notion that suicide is ethically wrong, that's not going to guide choices they make that cause them to become or not become suicidal. Those choices/actions/causes don't occur with the morality of suicide in mind. And so it's a somewhat fruitless angle to talk about the problem, in my opinion.

The other side of that is the part where someone commits suicide and people want to talk about how cowardly that is, or how much of a piece of shit that makes the person, etc. I think that my natural negative reaction to this kind of discussion about a suicide is based in my belief that it comes from a complete misunderstanding (or lack of understanding) of the state of mind someone is in who takes this action, and only serves to help the person saying it bury the uncomfortableness of the topic or action. Fuck that guy, what a piece of shit, now I don't have to think about how or why he came to be this way. I get it, I don't really care, but I think it stigmatizes "being suicidal" in a way that isn't helpful to productive discussion or people who are in this state getting help that they need. I think that if the broader discussion of suicide and what to do about it was largely based on the ethics around it, this voice would be the most powerful one and again, I think it is nonproductive and harmful.

Thanks for addressing the questions. To answer your question, the reason I believe that the increased public awareness & acceptance of the idea that suicide is unethical might decrease the rate of suicides is because if an action or behavior is ingrained in your mind as being unethical, then you are less likely to consider it as an option in the first place; and if you do happen to find yourself contemplating the idea, then there is more likely to be a voice in the back of your mind telling you that you ought not be going down this road. Of course believing an action to be unethical is not a perfect inoculation against one committing the action, but it certainly has more preventive power than not believing it to be unethical.

I think what we likely see differently is on how the increased public awareness & acceptance of the idea that suicide is unethical would be achieved. I'm not suggesting that we give copies of Kant's Critique of Practical Reason to people suffering with depression nor am I advocating that we condemn those who are struggling with thoughts of suicide. I think the way the immorality of suicide should be taught is the same way the immorality of racism is taught - through ubiquitous stories, anecdotes, illustrates, and open and frank discussions that get the point across. We don't teach the immorality of racism by reading MLK's I Have a Dream speech at klan rallies and I'm not suggesting the equivalent with teaching the ethics of suicide.

The moral views of a society do impact the decisions that we make. It obviously doesn't prevent every bad behavior and there are some members of society who simply do not care and others who do care but make poor decisions in moments of weakness, but they are clearly influential on the overall decisions of the group and the directions that we take as a society.

10 hours ago, XYZ said:

Are you asking only Celery Man or anybody?

Celery man and anybody else.

A point on the overall discussion in the thread: the majority of the focus seems to be on the morality issue. This is largely due to the way I framed the OP and the responses I've given. I'm perfectly happy to continue those discussions as I think they are important, but I would like to get some thoughts on the causes for the rise in suicides. I often see the claim that the issue is that our mental health system is insufficient. This may explain why some folks do not get the help they need, but it does not explain the persistent rise in suicides. The mental health system is as robust as it has ever been and we have more medications and treatment options than we did in decades past. So why are suicides rising in spite of this fact? To give an analogy, if we had more doctors and a larger range of more powerful antibiotics today than we did a few decades ago and yet the rates of bacterial infections kept rising, we would not blame the medical system on the increase in bacterial infections. The medical treatments would be beneficial for alleviating a bad situation and it may be the case that we would need to ramp up the medical system even more, but that is clearly not the cause of the rise in bacterial infections. Something else in society and the environment would have to be the source of these infections.

So why has suicide been on the rise over the past decade?

Edited June 11, 2018 by Guest

Celery Man · June 11, 2018

Yeah, I think we're still off a bit on the frame of mind that a person contemplating suicide is in, but I think I get what you're saying.

Wildly spitballing on why suicide has been on the rise over the past decade, without thinking too hard about if this is something that has radically increased over the past decade (and actually I'm curious if the spike is heavily one way or the other towards juvenile/adolescent suicide or adult suicide, or I guess any particular age group)

bottom two levels of maslow's hierarchy of needs are pretty much taken care of for everyone but absolutely the very most poor
people are increasingly disconnected from one another
people are disillusioned with or separated from an "American Dream", tidy little family units, career success as personal fulfillment, I dunno whatever used to fill the "purpose" void
people will rail on me for suggesting that loss of religion is involved, but I think there's a void left in value structure and purpose that religion used to fill, not to mention community. not suggesting that we need to fill that hole back in with organized religion, but the "fellowship" aspect of it is missing. maybe America growing more urban plays in as well with people getting disconnected/lost
probably some contribution from external factors like... where we are as a society, stagnation of the middle class, i don't know if addiction contributes any more or less than it ever has

so, a whole bunch of people wandering around looking for love, esteem, self-actualization, all that good shit and not thinking that it's possible, real, or if there's a point to begin with. depression, isolation, lack of purpose, despair. I dunno. Not sure how much if any of it accounts for what Bourdain was feeling.

I was thinking a little bit about disconnectedness from my physical/natural self the other day during a marathon of early meetings that started at 6 and went till noon. I was dialed into a conference call driving up Congress, parking, connecting headphones, going up the elevator, getting to my desk, just thinking of the ridiculousness that I was engaged in this one thing and then kinda in the background moving my body from one place to another, where I'll hop into a screen and continue to work on things that don't exist in the physical world. And how much of the time is my mind engaged in mind things and not in being a human being, and I bet I'll be pretty discontented in the long run if I don't make sure that I balance things out with being a homo sapien a bit every day. Being a social animal, engaged with my surroundings, maybe work with a tool. Maybe make another human. I dunno, I think at least a good portion of this can be explained by growing pains from what we've turned ourselves into.

RayDog · June 11, 2018

I can't imagine why anyone would say it is immoral to commit suicide. What a crock of shit. It has no logical basis.

Committing suicide is the most important choice anyone can make.

bernorange · June 11, 2018

On 6/10/2018 at 2:11 AM, Aphelion said:

... (1) do you think it is ethical or unethical for one to commit suicide due to depression and what is your reasoning? (2) If you cannot say that it is unethical, then on what grounds can you attempt to convince one to who is contemplating suicide to not go through with it? ...

1. I don't believe ethics is germane. Nor is religion. I'm guessing you have never experienced a bout of real, soul debilitating depression. You don't think clearly or rationally. Your brain chemistry is measurably out of normal equilibrium.

2. I'm not an expert on the subject, but I don't think folks manning suicide hotlines, the folks who have hard experience with talking to people on the ledge, get into philosophical debates with depressed people about morality or religious beliefs. These people (the suicidal) are in a mental hole. You have to appeal to something base and strong within them to help them out (even if it's just a temporary reprieve before they fall back in). I think it's highly likely that the most effective course of action to helping an individual shut down his personal "DefCon" suicide alarm is to treat the underlying depression.

If a potential suicide is purely rational, then I think you are free to engage that individual on whatever debating terms you prefer, but I highly suspect that rather than debating the merits of moral philosophy or religion, you will be better off solving whatever problem, circumstances or crisis is tilting said individuals decision matrix to conclude that suicide is the answer.

Our will is the only thing we truly own in our lives. We had a good discussion on the old site about free will where I to some length in explaining my POV on the subject.

Whitewater Horn · June 11, 2018

I haven’t read thIs whole thread yet, but my 11 year old son is in the hospital after trying to committ suicide on Satirday morning. Luckily his mother found him and got him to the ER in time. He gave no obvious warnings. When he regained consciousness in the hospital, he told the doctor that he “knows where to cut himself to finish the job when he gets home.”

I’m beyond bewildered and heartbroken. I thought we were closer than that. He tells me things he won’t tell his mother and have made it clear that no matter what he does, I will always love him. We have shared many things and worked through divorce and death of a beloved pet. I know it’s not true, but I feel like I’ve failed my son. I’m thankful that he’s alive and I hope I can get him the help and support he needs to never look for the end again.

June 11, 2018

2 hours ago, bernorange said:

1. I don't believe ethics is germane. Nor is religion. I'm guessing you have never experienced a bout of real, soul debilitating depression. You don't think clearly or rationally. Your brain chemistry is measurably out of normal equilibrium.

2. I'm not an expert on the subject, but I don't think folks manning suicide hotlines, the folks who have hard experience with talking to people on the ledge, get into philosophical debates with depressed people about morality or religious beliefs. These people (the suicidal) are in a mental hole. You have to appeal to something base and strong within them to help them out (even if it's just a temporary reprieve before they fall back in). I think it's highly likely that the most effective course of action to helping an individual shut down his personal "DefCon" suicide alarm is to treat the underlying depression.

If a potential suicide is purely rational, then I think you are free to engage that individual on whatever debating terms you prefer, but I highly suspect that rather than debating the merits of moral philosophy or religion, you will be better off solving whatever problem, circumstances or crisis is tilting said individuals decision matrix to conclude that suicide is the answer.

Our will is the only thing we truly own in our lives. We had a good discussion on the old site about free will where I to some length in explaining my POV on the subject.

Your guess is wrong. I've dealt with numerous significant mental health issues since childhood. I don't like to reference this because I prefer not to appeal to personal anecdotes as I think such things impede open & honest discussion and because my arguments are valid or not regardless of my personal experiences.

People have told me that rational instruction won't help those who are suicidal because they don't think rationally. Well, yes, that's the problem, isn't it? They aren't thinking rationally, either because they aren't thinking logically or they are thinking logically from a worldview that allows for suicide under the right circumstances. So how do we get them to think rationally? Wait for them to call into a suicide hotline? Did you know that approximately 50% of suicides happen with no prior mental health diagnosis and no outreach or warning from those who commit suicide? The point is that if one has been ingrained in a rational system of thought, then this may be the only line they have to follow out of a dark place. I've personally done this numerous times in my life; when my mental state gets destabilized and I am only loosely tethered to reality, I follow a chain of reasoning that is well rehearsed and ingrained in my mind and I walk this line regardless of what I'm feeling. To give an analogy, for soldiers we don't throw them into battle and tell them to seek help when bullets start flying. We give them ample training so that hopefully this kicks in and they can operate even when they are overwhelmed with fears. So how do we get folks to think rationally about this topic long before they enter into a dark state of mind? This will involve some form of discussing rationally what one ought to do - in other words, ethics.

Why do you reference religion? I haven't mentioned religion; I've discussed complete systems of morality that are independent of religion.

2 hours ago, Whitewater Horn said:

I haven’t read thIs whole thread yet, but my 11 year old son is in the hospital after trying to committ suicide on Satirday morning. Luckily his mother found him and got him to the ER in time. He gave no obvious warnings. When he regained consciousness in the hospital, he told the doctor that he “knows where to cut himself to finish the job when he gets home.”

I’m beyond bewildered and heartbroken. I thought we were closer than that. He tells me things he won’t tell his mother and have made it clear that no matter what he does, I will always love him. We have shared many things and worked through divorce and death of a beloved pet. I know it’s not true, but I feel like I’ve failed my son. I’m thankful that he’s alive and I hope I can get him the help and support he needs to never look for the end again.

Very sorry to hear. Feel free to send me a PM sometime if you feel like talking and need someone to listen. Also, there are a few folks that participate over on this thread that have dealt with similar issues: Cactusflinthead's Mental Health Thread

Edited June 11, 2018 by Guest

bernorange · June 11, 2018

4 minutes ago, Aphelion said:

Your guess is wrong. ...

OK. Sorry if I inadvertently rubbed any salt. I read your second question (that I quoted above) as implying that you believe it possible to engage the suicidal in rational discussions of ethics (or morality/philosophy).

Quote

People have told me that rational instruction won't help those who are suicidal because they don't think rationally. Well, yes, that's the problem, isn't it? They aren't thinking rationally, either because they they aren't thinking logically or they are thinking logically from a worldview that allows for suicide under the right circumstances. So how do we get them to think rationally? Wait for them to call into a suicide hotline? Did you know that approximately 50% of suicides happen with no prior mental health diagnosis and no outreach or warning from those who commit suicide? The point is that if one has been ingrained in a rational system of thought, then this may be the only line they have to follow out of a dark place. I've personally done this numerous times in my life; when my mental state gets destabilized and I am only loosely tethered to reality, I follow a chain of reasoning that is well rehearsed and ingrained in my mind and I walk this line regardless of what I'm feeling. To give an analogy, for soldiers we don't throw them into battle and tell them to seek help when bullets start flying. We give them ample training so that hopefully this kicks in and they can operate even when they are overwhelmed with fears. So how do we get folks to think rationally about this topic before long before they enter into a dark state of mind? This will involve some form of discussing rationally what one ought to do - in other words, ethics.

My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives. Hah. But seriously, I started to compose a response to your rhetoric above, but found it difficult to address the many tangents I wanted to address.

Let's start by being clear that, like many things in life, I don't think we can effect perfect outcomes. Let's not fall prey to the illusion of control. We can and should do what we can to effect good outcomes, but I don't know that it's constructive to focus a discussion on solving the unsolvable.

Q2 - Are they women?

I wanted to address the bolded part. You started your post by explaining that you didn't want your personal experience to color your arguments. I read the bolded phrase as your personal life experience defining the issue for you. We had some discussion a while back (on the old site IIRC) about the employment of classical rhetoric in the political sphere. I told you back then that you were in the minority in being driven by logos. Most people are not deep thinkers. They are not ingrained in rational systems of thought.

I'm afraid that I am also more inclined to your minority position, so I will also offer that rationality isn't perfect. Even the rational mind indulges in irrationality. I make irrational decisions at times with full conscious awareness of that fact. I choose to accept that imperfection in myself. I'm pretty sure I would go insane if I tried to live within the framework of perfect rationality. I'm not a Vulcan.

As to your last question, I think it's likely more productive to focus efforts on prevention and treatment of depression than rational arguments about suicide.

Anecdotally, I've mentioned from time to time that my wife has epilepsy. I've spent a lot of time in online communities for epilepsy patients and learned a lot about the issues they deal with. Many of the medicines prescribed for seizures seriously fuck with emotional control. A few are quite notorious for "causing" (or severely exacerbating) depression and suicide (for example). I mention this because rationality doesn't have anything to do with it. In this case, brain chemistry imbalance is the linchpin.

Quote

Why do you reference religion? I haven't mentioned religion; I've discussed complete systems of morality that are independent of religion.

For many people, morality is inseparable from their religious belief systems. Even if you didn't mention it specifically, I believe that it is in the same logical set as morality, ethics and philosophy with respect to a possible rationale for objecting to suicide.

Cheeseweasel · June 11, 2018

2 hours ago, Whitewater Horn said:

I haven’t read thIs whole thread yet, but my 11 year old son is in the hospital after trying to committ suicide on Satirday morning. Luckily his mother found him and got him to the ER in time. He gave no obvious warnings. When he regained consciousness in the hospital, he told the doctor that he “knows where to cut himself to finish the job when he gets home.”

I’m beyond bewildered and heartbroken. I thought we were closer than that. He tells me things he won’t tell his mother and have made it clear that no matter what he does, I will always love him. We have shared many things and worked through divorce and death of a beloved pet. I know it’s not true, but I feel like I’ve failed my son. I’m thankful that he’s alive and I hope I can get him the help and support he needs to never look for the end again.

Good luck, man. I wish I had some advice. Maybe someone who's been in a similar situation can help.

It's my biggest fear.

cactusflinthead · June 11, 2018

2 hours ago, Whitewater Horn said:

I haven’t read thIs whole thread yet, but my 11 year old son is in the hospital after trying to committ suicide on Satirday morning. Luckily his mother found him and got him to the ER in time. He gave no obvious warnings. When he regained consciousness in the hospital, he told the doctor that he “knows where to cut himself to finish the job when he gets home.”

I’m beyond bewildered and heartbroken. I thought we were closer than that. He tells me things he won’t tell his mother and have made it clear that no matter what he does, I will always love him. We have shared many things and worked through divorce and death of a beloved pet. I know it’s not true, but I feel like I’ve failed my son. I’m thankful that he’s alive and I hope I can get him the help and support he needs to never look for the end again.

If you feel the need to rant, let it fly.

XYZ · June 11, 2018

3 hours ago, Whitewater Horn said:

I haven’t read thIs whole thread yet, but my 11 year old son is in the hospital after trying to committ suicide on Satirday morning. Luckily his mother found him and got him to the ER in time. He gave no obvious warnings. When he regained consciousness in the hospital, he told the doctor that he “knows where to cut himself to finish the job when he gets home.”

I’m beyond bewildered and heartbroken. I thought we were closer than that. He tells me things he won’t tell his mother and have made it clear that no matter what he does, I will always love him. We have shared many things and worked through divorce and death of a beloved pet. I know it’s not true, but I feel like I’ve failed my son. I’m thankful that he’s alive and I hope I can get him the help and support he needs to never look for the end again.

Sorry to hear that. If you live in Austin and want me to buy you a cup of coffee, let me know.

June 11, 2018

1 hour ago, bernorange said:

OK. Sorry if I inadvertently rubbed any salt. I read your second question (that I quoted above) as implying that you believe it possible to engage the suicidal in rational discussions of ethics (or morality/philosophy).

My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives. Hah. But seriously, I started to compose a response to your rhetoric above, but found it difficult to address the many tangents I wanted to address.

Let's start by being clear that, like many things in life, I don't think we can effect perfect outcomes. Let's not fall prey to the illusion of control. We can and should do what we can to effect good outcomes, but I don't know that it's constructive to focus a discussion on solving the unsolvable.

Reveal hidden contents

Q2 - Are they women?

I wanted to address the bolded part. You started your post by explaining that you didn't want your personal experience to color your arguments. I read the bolded phrase as your personal life experience defining the issue for you. We had some discussion a while back (on the old site IIRC) about the employment of classical rhetoric in the political sphere. I told you back then that you were in the minority in being driven by logos. Most people are not deep thinkers. They are not ingrained in rational systems of thought.

I'm afraid that I am also more inclined to your minority position, so I will also offer that rationality isn't perfect. Even the rational mind indulges in irrationality. I make irrational decisions at times with full conscious awareness of that fact. I choose to accept that imperfection in myself. I'm pretty sure I would go insane if I tried to live within the framework of perfect rationality. I'm not a Vulcan.

As to your last question, I think it's likely more productive to focus efforts on prevention and treatment of depression than rational arguments about suicide.

Anecdotally, I've mentioned from time to time that my wife has epilepsy. I've spent a lot of time in online communities for epilepsy patients and learned a lot about the issues they deal with. Many of the medicines prescribed for seizures seriously fuck with emotional control. A few are quite notorious for "causing" (or severely exacerbating) depression and suicide (for example). I mention this because rationality doesn't have anything to do with it. In this case, brain chemistry imbalance is the linchpin.

For many people, morality is inseparable from their religious belief systems. Even if you didn't mention it specifically, I believe that it is in the same logical set as morality, ethics and philosophy with respect to a possible rationale for objecting to suicide.

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

Regarding being in the minority on what drives me, I'm inclined to agree with you more and more these days. When I try to have good faith discussions with good intentions about this and related problems, I often get a "what the fuck are you going on about?" response, which is probably not surprising to you. I've also found that people are inclined to see ulterior motives that I do not have. I know what has been helpful for me and I'm trying to be helpful for others. The "what are the things that you like in life and find pleasure in?" and other such modern existentialist arguments were not helpful to me in the slightest. My suspicion is that they are not very helpful to others as well.

But even considering the above (that my conscious approach may be atypical), I still think that people's worldviews have a direct influence on their decisions, even if they are not always rational (and of course none of us are rational at all times). For example, if someone believes that there is no intrinsic meaning or purpose in life and/or that the only meaning there can be is the subjective meaning an individual assigns to things (i.e. existential nihilism) and they genuinely do not believe that their life has any meaning, then on what grounds can we tell them that they are wrong? We can say that we believe that their life has meaning, but that is irreverent from the existential nihilist perspective because meaning is only subjective and consequently it matters not what we believe. So an existential nihilist can commit suicide after following a very logical thought process from their worldview. And I believe that more suicides are done by people of sound mind than we want to admit for some reason; as I stated above, over 50% of suicides are done by those with no mental health diagnosis and we often find that they take perfectly logical actions (logical according to their worldview and beliefs; logical and rational are not the same thing) leading up to their suicide. So I do not think that the rise of existential nihilism as a prevalent worldview in modern society is a mere coincidence with the rise in suicide (see The Myth of Sisyphus). Also, it doesn't matter if one even knows the terms existentialism or nihilism; one can have a worldview that powerfully influences their decisions without knowing what academics call it.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Guest

bernorange · June 11, 2018

6 minutes ago, Aphelion said:

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

Cheers. I've always enjoyed your discussion threads.

Quote

Regarding being in the minority on what drives me, I'm inclined to agree with you more and more these days. When I try to have good faith discussions with good intentions about this and related problems, I often get a "what the fuck are you going on about?" response, which is probably not surprising to you.

... The Vortex derives it's picture of the whole Universe on the principle of extrapolated matter analysis. To explain, since every piece of matter in the Universe is in someway effected by every other piece of matter in the Universe, it is in theory possible to extrapolate the whole of creation, every Galaxy, every sun, every planet, their orbits, their composition, and their economic and social history from, say, one small piece of fairy cake. The man who invented the Total Perspective Vortex did so basically in order to annoy his wife. Trin Tragula, for that was his name, was a dreamer. A speculative thinker or, as his wife would have it, an idiot. And she would nag him incessantly about the utterly inordinate amount of time he would spend staring out into space or mulling over the mechanics of safety pins or doing spectrographic analysis of pieces of fairy cake. 'Have some sense of proportion' she would say, thirty-eight times a day. And so he built the Total Perspective Vortex, just to show her. And in one end he plugged the whole of reality as extrapolated from a fairy cake, and in the other end he plugged his wife, so that when he turned it on, she saw in one instant the whole infinity of creation, and herself in relation to it. To Trin Tragula's horror, the shock annihilated her brain. But, to his satisfaction, he realised he had conclusively proved that if life is going to exist in a Universe this size, the one thing it cannot afford to have a sense of proportion. ...

Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (transcript from BBC radio series)

Quote

... The "what are the things that you like in life and find pleasure in?" and other such modern existentialist arguments were not helpful to me in the slightest. ...

Quote

But even considering the above (that my conscious approach may be atypical), I still think that people's worldviews have a direct influence on their decisions, even if they are not always rational ...

Did you mean rational or conscious? Either way, I agree. I touched on this in the free will discussion. It takes a good bit of effort to become self aware of one's thought processes. I do not believe that most people delve that deeply in introspection. Most are not aware of the filters that shape their perceptions, emotions and thoughts. The inner child exerts a powerful force on the adult shell. But your observation, "people's worldviews have a direct influence on their decisions" goes back to my first post in this thread (and Twicehorn summarized my thoughts elegantly), even if that's not exactly what you intended by the statement.

bernorange · June 11, 2018

Well, poop. Spoiler tags messed up the intended formatting for that post and editing won't let me fix it. *sigh*

June 11, 2018

1 hour ago, bernorange said:

Did you mean rational or conscious? Either way, I agree. I touched on this in the free will discussion. It takes a good bit of effort to become self aware of one's thought processes. I do not believe that most people delve that deeply in introspection. Most are not aware of the filters that shape their perceptions, emotions and thoughts. The inner child exerts a powerful force on the adult shell. But your observation, "people's worldviews have a direct influence on their decisions" goes back to my first post in this thread (and Twicehorn summarized my thoughts elegantly), even if that's not exactly what you intended by the statement

It's my view that every person has some guiding ethos* whether they consciously recognize it and can articulate it or not. I grew up with some pretty debased rough and tumble characters and this was true even for them. Their ethos was something along the lines of "fuck bitches, fight for my friends, fuck all those who oppose us." Actually, to their credit, they could and sometimes would in various ways state their guiding principles.

But I agree with you that many people are not consciously aware of their guiding ethos and it would probably take some considerable effort to articulate them in clear detail; but that is not necessary for one to have an ethos and for people to logically act according to their guiding principles. It's also the case that one does not always act according their fundamental principles; this tends to occur more often when one has a more elaborate and demanding ethos. If you live your life by the simple rule fuck bitches, get money, then unless in some moment of weakness you are overwhelmed with a sense of chastity or charity and you decide to not fuck a bitch or to give away some of your money, then you will be innocent of any charge of hypocrisy. But if you subscribe to Kant's moral theory based on the categorical imperative, then you are going to be guilty of hypocrisy from time to time. As for me, I violate my ethical principles on a daily basis.

But I do believe that everyone has some set of guiding principles, whether they are consciously aware of them and can state them or not, and that people often act in a way that logically follows from these principles. Now these principles themselves may be irrational and what we see is really stupid and/or immoral behavior, but that does not mean that they are acting inconsistently or that they are not logically following their principles. In the case of suicides, I think the fundamental belief of life has no intrinsic meaning and only can have whatever meaning you find in it is becoming ingrained in the prevailing social worldview, whether people consciously recognize this or not, and that it is having disastrous effects.

Let me ask you a hypothetical: suppose you wanted to change humanity for the better and you had the power to institute one of two options: (1) make everyone always act according to their own currently existing guiding principles & ethical code (2) install within every person a set of guiding principles & ethical code of your choosing that gets ingrained in their subconscious, but that they are not bound to act upon. Which would have the more positive effect on humanity? I say (2) without hesitation.

*Preemptive reference: say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Guest

Celery Man · June 11, 2018

I think I agree that people have guiding principles/codes, and that some are much more open to suicide as being "permissible", to use the parlance of your times. I think a lot of people who commit suicide have, for one reason or another, clinical depression, maybe a chemical imbalance, something wrong. But if you lose the capacity to feel positive emotions, your world goes gray, you wake up every day and the first thing that pops into your head is a string of suicidal ideations, and that goes on for months, you get to a place where you're not making decisions based on values. Anymore than someone jumping out of the window of a burning building. I know you cited the thing where people who committed suicide frequently have not undergone any mental evaluations, etc - that may not be meaningless, but it also doesn't mean that there's nothing going on with them. There are lots of reasons people may not seek help, whether it's pride, shame, or just not having any interest in putting themselves at risk of a psychiatric hold.

JimmyHoffa · June 11, 2018

In a world where everyone has access to "all of their friends" within in seconds via social media, people are more alone then ever.

The number of people that don't have actual conversations with friends, family or anyone else is increasing and while many think they have "tons of friends" if you never see or speak to them in real life they somehow become imaginary.

I by no means am down playing therapy or therapists but there is a reason why people go to "talk" to them, you know because it's healthy.

bernorange · June 11, 2018

2 minutes ago, Aphelion said:

... In the case of suicides, I think the fundamental belief of life has no intrinsic meaning and only can have whatever meaning you find in it is becoming ingrained in the prevailing social worldview, whether people consciously recognize this or not, and that it is having disastrous effects. ...

Ah, the crux of the matter, at least, from your POV. I grant you that is a possibility. It probably wouldn't hurt to include some study of philosophy to school curriculums.

I can think of a few other possibilities though (one mentioned in my first post to the thread). I think there are a number of factors that are contributing to disassociation/disaffection of individuals to society (from immediate family to local community to the borg mind). Technology has shrunk the world in dramatic fashion in a very short period of time. My father tells me stories how when he was young they would make appointments with the local phone operator to place a long distance call to talk to relatives on another continent. The calls were so expensive that they could only afford to talk for a few minutes every few months or so. Today, you can videoconference with someone virtually anywhere on the globe (as long as they have sufficient internet access) for pennies. News and communications infrastructure makes the whole world available at your fingertips. I posted a bit from the Hitchhiker's Guide as a joke, but there is some truth with respect to handling proportion. The world hasn't gotten smaller, our window(s) to the world have expanded greatly.

At the same time, the nuclear family dynamic is changing. Double income earning families are the norm now. Parents do not spend as much time with their kids as in generations past. Kids are more and more raised by external influences (whether daycares, schools, popular media, the internet or their peer groups). I suspect that kids get overwhelmed a bit trying to process all the inputs available today. They don't get to mature in the same (limited, controlled) environment that past generations had. Perhaps this does tie in a bit with your premise, but there is a lot of popular media that focuses on celebrity bullshit, risk challenges (on the youtubes), etc. Kids have always been perceptive to the difference between what people say and what they really think/do. If my kids are any indication, they learn really fast today (faster than I did as a kid, that's for sure).

At the other end of the spectrum is a whole different world regarding the use of mind altering substances (drugs - both illegal/recreational and medicinal/prescribed). It's a brave new ADHD and opiod abusing world out there.

EMAWesome · June 11, 2018

Suicide rates are not rising. They had a big discussion about this on Redeye Radio the other night. I'd have to relisten to the podcast to find exactly where the statistics quoted came from but it was some kind of federal government agency. The suicide rate per 100,000 males and the suicide rate per 100,000 females in 2015 (the last year they could find the statistics) were practically the same as both suicide rates in 1950. (21 and 6 respectively) The thing that has changed is the population in the country since then. The overall number has gone up with the population going up but the overall rate has not changed.

June 11, 2018

10 minutes ago, EMAWesome said:

Suicide rates are not rising. They had a big discussion about this on Redeye Radio the other night. I'd have to relisten to the podcast to find exactly where the statistics quoted came from but it was some kind of federal government agency. The suicide rate per 100,000 males and the suicide rate per 100,000 females in 2015 (the last year they could find the statistics) were practically the same as both suicide rates in 1950. (21 and 6 respectively) The thing that has changed is the population in the country since then. The overall number has gone up with the population going up but the overall rate has not changed.

I linked the report in the OP. It was by the CDC. They report that the rates (not solely the overall number) increased in almost all states by significant percentages during the time period they studied (1999-2016).

Edited June 11, 2018 by Guest

Anastasis · June 11, 2018

10 hours ago, Whitewater Horn said:

I haven’t read thIs whole thread yet, but my 11 year old son is in the hospital after trying to committ suicide on Satirday morning. Luckily his mother found him and got him to the ER in time. He gave no obvious warnings. When he regained consciousness in the hospital, he told the doctor that he “knows where to cut himself to finish the job when he gets home.”

I’m beyond bewildered and heartbroken. I thought we were closer than that. He tells me things he won’t tell his mother and have made it clear that no matter what he does, I will always love him. We have shared many things and worked through divorce and death of a beloved pet. I know it’s not true, but I feel like I’ve failed my son. I’m thankful that he’s alive and I hope I can get him the help and support he needs to never look for the end again.

11 years old? I am so sorry man. I can't even imagine. Please use this board of assholes in whatever way you need. Sounding board, questions/concerns on treatments, or just somebody to yell at.

Brisketexan · June 11, 2018

11 hours ago, Whitewater Horn said:

I haven’t read thIs whole thread yet, but my 11 year old son is in the hospital after trying to committ suicide on Satirday morning. Luckily his mother found him and got him to the ER in time. He gave no obvious warnings. When he regained consciousness in the hospital, he told the doctor that he “knows where to cut himself to finish the job when he gets home.”

I’m beyond bewildered and heartbroken. I thought we were closer than that. He tells me things he won’t tell his mother and have made it clear that no matter what he does, I will always love him. We have shared many things and worked through divorce and death of a beloved pet. I know it’s not true, but I feel like I’ve failed my son. I’m thankful that he’s alive and I hope I can get him the help and support he needs to never look for the end again.

Damn, brother. I am so sorry. Yeah, as Anastasis said, use this board for WHATEVER reason you want. We sure as hell just want peace, and health, for you and your boy.

4 hours ago, JimmyHoffa said:

In a world where everyone has access to "all of their friends" within in seconds via social media, people are more alone then ever.

The number of people that don't have actual conversations with friends, family or anyone else is increasing and while many think they have "tons of friends" if you never see or speak to them in real life they somehow become imaginary.

I by no means am down playing therapy or therapists but there is a reason why people go to "talk" to them, you know because it's healthy.

I think this is so much of the story. We have never been as "alone" as we are now. We have a society that celebrates the individual at the expense of the community. We connect....but not through the means that truly feed our souls (Facebook and this site just don't count). We need time together, time in community, laughing, loving, being, supporting, caring for each other. Think of how great you feel after a good night out with your friends. We are DESIGNED to live in close community -- it's in our nature. And we've been working against that nature for a while now.

We need each other.

And we're building a culture that ignores and even fights against that. It's rather self-destructive.

And I sure as hell don't have a magic plan to change it.

MaybeACoordinator · June 11, 2018

Scott wrote this song about a girl he'd known since elementary school who gassed herself in her car in the garage leaving behind twin eight-year-old girls. The song is written from the point of view of the father.

June 12, 2018

19 hours ago, Celery Man said:

I think I agree that people have guiding principles/codes, and that some are much more open to suicide as being "permissible", to use the parlance of your times. I think a lot of people who commit suicide have, for one reason or another, clinical depression, maybe a chemical imbalance, something wrong. But if you lose the capacity to feel positive emotions, your world goes gray, you wake up every day and the first thing that pops into your head is a string of suicidal ideations, and that goes on for months, you get to a place where you're not making decisions based on values. Anymore than someone jumping out of the window of a burning building. I know you cited the thing where people who committed suicide frequently have not undergone any mental evaluations, etc - that may not be meaningless, but it also doesn't mean that there's nothing going on with them. There are lots of reasons people may not seek help, whether it's pride, shame, or just not having any interest in putting themselves at risk of a psychiatric hold.

In regards to the situation were someone is at the end of a long battle with mental health issues and they just want some peace and decide to end things with a similar set of motives as one who jumps out of a burning building, like everyone else I am sympathetic to those in that situation. But I think an unsupported assumption that is commonly made whenever we hear about one committing suicide is that this must have been the situation they were in. The CDC report shows that a significant percentage of suicides follow a relationship issue or some other crisis - acute problems in life and not necessarily long term chronic battles (although admittedly the two are not mutually exclusive).

My overarching point in the ethics discussion is that what is considered acceptable in society has an impact on the choices people make. For example, Japan has higher suicide rates than most countries. Now there are many contributing factors to this, but is it mere coincide that "in Japanese culture, there is a long history of considering certain types of suicides honorable"?

19 hours ago, bernorange said:

Ah, the crux of the matter, at least, from your POV. I grant you that is a possibility. It probably wouldn't hurt to include some study of philosophy to school curriculums.

I can think of a few other possibilities though (one mentioned in my first post to the thread). I think there are a number of factors that are contributing to disassociation/disaffection of individuals to society (from immediate family to local community to the borg mind). Technology has shrunk the world in dramatic fashion in a very short period of time. My father tells me stories how when he was young they would make appointments with the local phone operator to place a long distance call to talk to relatives on another continent. The calls were so expensive that they could only afford to talk for a few minutes every few months or so. Today, you can videoconference with someone virtually anywhere on the globe (as long as they have sufficient internet access) for pennies. News and communications infrastructure makes the whole world available at your fingertips. I posted a bit from the Hitchhiker's Guide as a joke, but there is some truth with respect to handling proportion. The world hasn't gotten smaller, our window(s) to the world have expanded greatly.

At the same time, the nuclear family dynamic is changing. Double income earning families are the norm now. Parents do not spend as much time with their kids as in generations past. Kids are more and more raised by external influences (whether daycares, schools, popular media, the internet or their peer groups). I suspect that kids get overwhelmed a bit trying to process all the inputs available today. They don't get to mature in the same (limited, controlled) environment that past generations had. Perhaps this does tie in a bit with your premise, but there is a lot of popular media that focuses on celebrity bullshit, risk challenges (on the youtubes), etc. Kids have always been perceptive to the difference between what people say and what they really think/do. If my kids are any indication, they learn really fast today (faster than I did as a kid, that's for sure).

At the other end of the spectrum is a whole different world regarding the use of mind altering substances (drugs - both illegal/recreational and medicinal/prescribed). It's a brave new ADHD and opiod abusing world out there.

Good points. People are more isolated from their families & friends these days and so much of our day to day lives is the mandatory drudgery & monotony just to get by. And to me it seems we are more and more under the microscope - being judged at school, at work, on the internet. Sometimes I feel like I'm running a never ending marathon and no falter or misstep goes unnoticed. That may all just be my perception, but whether it's real or mere perception the effect on one's mental health is the same.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Guest

MissingInAction · June 13, 2018

Life's a bitch then you die.

JimmyHoffa · June 13, 2018

More than a third of American adults take prescription drugs that can cause depression: Study

More than one-third of American adults may be using prescription medications that can potentially cause depression or increase the risk of suicide, according to a study published Tuesday in the Journal of the American Medical Association.

Some hormonal birth control pills, heart and blood pressure medications, proton-pump inhibitors, antacids and painkillers were among the more than 200 commonly used prescription drugs that researchers said have depression or suicide listed as a potential side effect.

The researchers, from the University of Illinois at Chicago, looked at how more than 26,000 people from 2005 to 2014 used medications.

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/more-third-american-adults-prescription-drugs-cause-depression-230804513--abc-news-wellness.html

Obviously not possible for a lot of people but the "fix it now" "take a pill for everything" culture COULD also be a factor.

July 27, 2018

Looking back on the OP, if I had to write it over again I would not use the word "moral" as it has connotations I didn't intend; instead I would have used only "ethical." Even that would require some additional clarification, but it's closer to what I was after.

I recently had a few in depth conversations with a few young adults who were depressed and had considered suicide in the past. In these particular cases the young folks had very promising futures ahead of them that most would consider successful. The one thing in common was that they all expressed the idea that their life had no meaning or purpose; they seemed to be filled with a type of existential malaise. Their thought processes were clear & logical in that one point followed the next; they were just down about some set of circumstances (relationships, mostly) and didn't see the point in the struggle of life. They had a view that their life was solely their own and that suicide was a reasonable option should things get bad enough; when I asked if they considered the ethical implications of suicide it seemed to me that they had not considered this in much detail - but when pushed the typical view was that they had the perfect right to do so as it was their own life; one person was surprised to learn that some argue it is unethical and was interested to learn the reasons why. When I discussed with these folks their accomplishments and talents and bright futures, they did not seem to really care. The only points that resonated with them and got their focus & attention was discussion on the ultimate meaning of things and on the purpose & obligations of mankind. I didn't use a lot of heavy academic jargon, but I discussed these concepts all the same.

I know these stories are anecdotal, but these were my recent experiences and so I'd thought I'd share. I'd like to think my discussions with them were helpful. To me this is the end purpose of these types of discussions; not to have purely academic debate for its own sake, but "to show the fly the way out of the fly bottle," as Wittgenstein said.

Edited July 27, 2018 by Guest

bernorange · July 27, 2018

Be careful associating with incels Aphelion!

DeweyCox · July 28, 2018

12 hours ago, Aphelion said:

Looking back on the OP, if I had to write it over again I would not use the word "moral" as it has connotations I didn't intend; instead I would have used only "ethical." Even that would require some additional clarification, but it's closer to what I was after.

I recently had a few in depth conversations with a few young adults who were depressed and had considered suicide in the past. In these particular cases the young folks had very promising futures ahead of them that most would consider successful. The one thing in common was that they all expressed the idea that their life had no meaning or purpose; they seemed to be filled with a type of existential malaise. Their thought processes were clear & logical in that one point followed the next; they were just down about some set of circumstances (relationships, mostly) and didn't see the point in the struggle of life. They had a view that their life was solely their own and that suicide was a reasonable option should things get bad enough; when I asked if they considered the ethical implications of suicide it seemed to me that they had not considered this in much detail - but when pushed the typical view was that they had the perfect right to do so as it was their own life; one person was surprised to learn that some argue it is unethical and was interested to learn the reasons why. When I discussed with these folks their accomplishments and talents and bright futures, they did not seem to really care. The only points that resonated with them and got their focus & attention was discussion on the ultimate meaning of things and on the purpose & obligations of mankind. I didn't use a lot of heavy academic jargon, but I discussed these concepts all the same.

I know these stories are anecdotal, but these were my recent experiences and so I'd thought I'd share. I'd like to think my discussions with them were helpful. To me this is the end purpose of these types of discussions; not to have purely academic debate for its own sake, but "to show the fly the way out of the fly bottle," as Wittgenstein said.

I’m very curious of their religious views.

July 28, 2018

24 minutes ago, DeweyCox said:

I’m very curious of their religious views.

Agnostic and Christian. Ironically, the more devout of the two Christians I know was the one who was surprised to hear that some think that suicide is unethical ("so some believe that suicide is a sin?" was the way they phrased it). The agnostic had attempted suicide in the past and overall seemed to me to be higher risk (although I am no expert on evaluating such things), while the two Christians had not made any attempts and had only fairly vague ideations.

markstanco · December 7, 2019

Terrible necro bump.

Just found out a friend I literally shared a baby crib with offed herself last night.

workswithseed · December 8, 2019

I'm sorry, man.

Judge Roybeanbag · December 8, 2019

Sorry to hear that, man. Good luck to you and her family.

markstanco · December 8, 2019

Still can't sleep. Her dad did that to her when she was 8. She did it to her 18 and 20 year old kids. I do not get it.

Helobious · December 8, 2019

It's pretty much a guarantee that she had convinced herself that her kids were better off without her and that the selfish thing to do would be to remain alive. Depression does that to your mind.

cactusflinthead · December 9, 2019

You're not going to get it. As much as we want to put a hard and fast answer to the question of why, we're still here asking it and we are no closer to it since before Aphelion started the thread.

I'm sorry, it sucks. All you can do now is deal with the survival. To this day that is what I have gained from my experience with this phenomena. Make the most of the time you get. Do not miss the chance to say what you gotta say and do what you gotta do, because tomorrow is not guaranteed. That face you see today might not be there again.

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