Nancy Pelosi is a badass MF and I want her to be Speaker

[Pescado_Rojo 19416]

11 hours ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

Threatened to shoot down jets that escort her there. 

With what? Your Russian designed SAMs? 

[MonkeyDoughnut 10232]

Putin needed to do something stupid to save face at home and we got the Ukraine conflict... Xi is facing simimlar issues at home. Here's to hoping Xi doesnt' pull a Putin with this.

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

She's there with no incident.... Yet

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2022/08/02/nancy-pelosi-taiwan-trip/10206663002/

 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by SmokeyTheBear

[washparkhorn 9939]

I see no benefit in the Speaker of the House visiting Taiwan other than the signals intelligence we gather from the Chinese response.

It is an escalation of the Pivot begun by Obama and carried forward by Trump. Human error in this setting could be catastrophic. The cost-benefit analysis does not support this visit. 

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

I don't know. If you want to put pressure on them, there is no better time. With Russia showing how weak they really are, China largely stands alone now and easier to put in a box. They are in the midst of their own internal mess and their military must be questioning everything after what they see how Lil ol Ukraine is handling the paper bear with our weaponry. Our appeasement of certain regimes is starting to backfire on us and it's time to fix that. 

[washparkhorn 9939]

Understood, but whether additional pressure is wise at this juncture is where I err towards caution. I expect this will rally Chinese patriotism at a time when ChiCom leadership is being tested internally (weak domestic demand; zero Covid policy, housing instability). China’s largest trading partners (the US and the EU) are headed towards recession, which will only exacerbate China’s slowing growth. The ChiComs are doing a fine job killing themselves - so why interrupt them?

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

1 minute ago, washparkhorn said:

Understood, but whether additional pressure is wise at this juncture is where I err towards caution. I expect this will rally Chinese patriotism at a time when ChiCom leadership is being tested internally (weak domestic demand; zero Covid policy, housing instability). China’s largest trading partners (the US and the EU) are headed towards recession, which will only exacerbate China’s slowing growth. The ChiComs are doing a fine job killing themselves - so why interrupt them?

If we finally view each other as the hostiles we are, why not weaken them further when we can? They have no problem doing what they want to try to weaken us. All we are doing with this move is tell the world we support Taiwan. This isn't sanctions or a surgical strike or something real. This is trying to stop another Ukraine from happening on China's timeline. 

[David Dennison 18854]

8 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Understood, but whether additional pressure is wise at this juncture is where I err towards caution. I expect this will rally Chinese patriotism at a time when ChiCom leadership is being tested internally (weak domestic demand; zero Covid policy, housing instability). China’s largest trading partners (the US and the EU) are headed towards recession, which will only exacerbate China’s slowing growth. The ChiComs are doing a fine job killing themselves - so why interrupt them?

Democracy.

[crash_davis 23107]

Discretion is the better part of Valor.

There's no point in playing the game unless we want to see it to conclusion, conclusion being trading a few missiles and severe damage to relations at best and full out war at worst. Not sure what's to gain from playing chicken.

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

To put it another way, this is just like us cruising our subs and carriers thru their artificial islands so that they don't feel they can shut down/control international shipping channels. 

[Dutchrudder 11137]

Can we let Taiwan apply to become a state?  I would support it. Taiwan kicks ass.

[crash_davis 23107]

2 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

To put it another way, this is just like us cruising our subs and carriers thru their artificial islands so that they don't feel they can shut down/control international shipping channels. 

I have NO problems doing that as a challenge to their claim. 

Taiwan is a whole nother animal. No need to poke that bear unless we are ready to fully deal with the consequences.

With how the last 2 years have gone, I fully expect all hell to break loose. It would be a continuation of shit.

[The Ace of Aces 5181]

This is such a stupid controversy. Newt went. Trump’s HHS went in 2020. 

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

6 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

I have NO problems doing that as a challenge to their claim. 

Taiwan is a whole nother animal. No need to poke that bear unless we are ready to fully deal with the consequences.

With how the last 2 years have gone, I fully expect all hell to break loose. It would be a continuation of shit.

If it's going to go down at some point, then again, why not take every advantage possible to weaken them and strengthen our alliances? I'm of the mind that Russia and China have had their strategies and road map for expansion already set, regardless of what the rest of the world wants. Russia played their hand and now we need to disrupt China's play before they are strong enough to fully realize their strategy. 

[6th Street 6392]

8 minutes ago, Dutchrudder said:

Can we let Taiwan apply to become a state?  I would support it. Taiwan kicks ass.

Boba tea for all

[crash_davis 23107]

2 minutes ago, The Ace of Aces said:

This is such a stupid controversy. Newt went. Trump’s HHS went in 2020. 

Agreed but for whatever reason China is deciding to make a stance with this trip. This is now a no win for Biden's admin. She goes, then China is forced to do something to save face. She doesn't go, the Republicans will jump on this as a sign of weakness. Of course if she goes and shit goes south, Republicans will blame Biden for whatever happens.

[Dutchrudder 11137]

Just now, crash_davis said:

Agreed but for whatever reason China is deciding to make a stance with this trip. This is now a no win for Biden's admin. She goes, then China is forced to do something to save face. She doesn't go, the Republicans will jump on this as a sign of weakness. Of course if she goes and shit goes south, Republicans will blame Biden for whatever happens.

It's so odd because I was told that Biden and China are buddies and work together to enrich themselves. It's so weird that they would butt heads over this, it's almost like they don't conspire together at all...

[crash_davis 23107]

10 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

If it's going to go down at some point, then again, why not take every advantage possible to weaken them and strengthen our alliances? I'm of the mind that Russia and China have had their strategies and road map for expansion already set, regardless of what the rest of the world wants. Russia played their hand and now we need to disrupt China's play before they are strong enough to fully realize their strategy. 

The difference is Taiwan is the chip manufacture for the world including most of our consumer and military chips. We stand firm, China responds militarily. We respond militarily. Taiwan becomes Ukraine for our de facto war. Everything grinds to a halt because chips are no longer produced, and for how long?

What's the end game? If it's to accelerate the inevitable, then we better have our chip manufacturing capabilities ready in the US. I think we are a at least a decade away being fully independent for chip manufacturing.

 

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by crash_davis

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

6 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

The difference is Taiwan is the chip manufacture for the world including most of our consumer and military chips. We stand firm, China responds militarily. We respond militarily. Taiwan becomes Ukraine for our de facto war. Everything grinds to a halt because chips are no longer produced, and for how long?

What's the end game? If it's to accelerate the inevitable, then we better have our chip manufacturing capabilities ready in the US. I think we are a at least a decade away being fully independent for chip manufacturing.

 

 

The alternative is China does what they want, take over Taiwan, controls the chip market and we're sitting around twiddling our thumbs wishing we did something more like Ukraine. 

*and, any bad actors will be emboldened further because they know America won't do anything of substance to stop them. 

Edited August 2, 2022 by SmokeyTheBear

[Bama Chick 28596]

Fucking Senator Football Coach went last year and nobody gave one solitary fuck.

[crash_davis 23107]

China is well ahead of us in chip manufacturing. They are a only few years behind Taiwan in capability. We are at least a decade. They can live through the chip issue much better than we can. 

So we start shit now. We'll be a severe disadvantage re chip manufacturing. We'll need continued chip production for a long protracted war, especially since we'll be supporting two wars, Ukraine and Taiwan.

1 minute ago, Bama Chick said:

Fucking Senator Football Coach went last year and nobody gave one solitary fuck.

It's not our fucks that matter. It's China's.

[crash_davis 23107]

I'm not against Pelosi going. I just want our military and Biden to be totally in synch with the worst case scenario cause it could get ugly. China seems to be itching for a fight. We may be in a reciprocal mood. This may or may not be the match.

[babysdaddy 2721]

As soon as China came out saying there will be repercussions, she had no choice but to go.  Fuck them

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

4 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

China is well ahead of us in chip manufacturing. They are a only few years behind Taiwan in capability. We are at least a decade. They can live through the chip issue much better than we can. 

So we start shit now. We'll be a severe disadvantage re chip manufacturing. We'll need continued chip production for a long protracted war, especially since we'll be supporting two wars, Ukraine and Taiwan.

It's not our fucks that matter. It's China's.

Great thing about the Ukraine war is that we only have a pinky toe in that one and it is a model for the defense of Taiwan. I do not want a war with China, but if they are going to do their thing (which is their purgative), we need to put pressure and leverage all the weaknesses. If they are dealing with bank runs, and COVID issues, and general unrest from a populace support standpoint, a Ukraine type war could put Xi in a very bad position similar to Putin currently. 

[crash_davis 23107]

Just now, SmokeyTheBear said:

Great thing about the Ukraine war is that we only have a pinky toe in that one and it is a model for the defense of Taiwan. I do not want a war with China, but if they are going to do their thing (which is their purgative), we need to put pressure and leverage all the weaknesses. If they are dealing with bank runs, and COVID issues, and general unrest from a populace support standpoint, a Ukraine type war could put Xi in a very bad position similar to Putin currently. 

Don't forget it would also impact us. The country is divided as fuck. We are on the brink of a recession. We go to war, the economy is really going to tank, same as China's. We'll tear ourselves up more blaming and defending the war. 

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

3 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

Don't forget it would also impact us. The country is divided as fuck. We are on the brink of a recession. We go to war, the economy is really going to tank, same as China's. We'll tear ourselves up more blaming and defending the war. 

Not wrong but also a war is a great unifying subject (sadly). I think across the political spectrum, China is viewed in a negative light. Maybe more so than Russia. But we shouldn't be dictating our long term global strategic goals/security by placating the worst of our society. We have our own domestic terrorists who want to destroy our government regardless of how we manage our external enemies. 

But China wants to take the top Superpower spot and will work towards that regardless of what anyone else wants. It is in our best interest to stymie that and its most effective to do that when they are weak, not regrouped and able to focus solely on our responses. 

Edited August 2, 2022 by SmokeyTheBear

[Underdog 28611]

Meh.  She’s just over there to scout the Taiwan little league, see what our young lads of summer are up against. 

[Horn Dog 9818]

9 minutes ago, babysdaddy said:

As soon as China came out saying there will be repercussions, she had no choice but to go.  Fuck them

Exactly this.  Whether it was a good idea or not when it was proposed, once China threatened us, we have absolutely no choice.    They are not going to do shit about it either so calm down. 

['stache 21802]

Can someone fill me in why this visit is such a problem for them as opposed to several past visits from U.S. politicians and high ranking officials in recent years?

[Sawbonz 27546]

12 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

Don't forget it would also impact us. The country is divided as fuck. We are on the brink of a recession. We go to war, the economy is really going to tank, same as China's. We'll tear ourselves up more blaming and defending the war. 

All the Magtards hate Jyna. You saying conflict under a dem administration is going to have them embracing the chicoms?

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

Just now, Sawbonz said:

All the Magtards hate Jyna. You saying conflict under a dem administration is going to have them embracing the chicoms?

[crash_davis 23107]

1 minute ago, Sawbonz said:

All the Magtards hate Jyna. You saying conflict under a dem administration is going to have them embracing the chicoms?

MAGATs would support whatever to own the libs. They have gone full retard up to this point. What makes you think this would be any different?

[Clintonaldo 2574]

I am not really a fan of her but she has some balls and my respect for going.

[WhatTheBuck 28776]

12 minutes ago, Horn Dog said:

They are not going to do shit about it either so calm down.

This. We’re calling their bluff. 

[The Dog 44020]

1 hour ago, washparkhorn said:

I see no benefit in the Speaker of the House visiting Taiwan other than the signals intelligence we gather from the Chinese response.

 

Funny you mention that:

 

[Dutchrudder 11137]

Remember when Trump took a congratulations call from the leader of Taiwan in 2016, and a bunch of people got upset because he wasn't following the "One China" policy?  Ah, those times were quaint. Let's send Kamala there next month and see what happens.  

Btw, fuck China. 

[The Ace of Aces 5181]

53 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

Agreed but for whatever reason China is deciding to make a stance with this trip. This is now a no win for Biden's admin. She goes, then China is forced to do something to save face. She doesn't go, the Republicans will jump on this as a sign of weakness. Of course if she goes and shit goes south, Republicans will blame Biden for whatever happens.

I was told Biden gave China Hunter as a quid pro pro. That’s some contorting. 

[The Dog 44020]

 

[Surly Bevo 24908]

They need us a lot. We need them a lot. As long as that remains the delicate balance ain’t no real shit happening.

That said it would be so on brand for this part of the simulation

Child alien “Daddy tell me what happened to that one?”

Papa Alien “Well an Octogenarian landed on this island for a few hours…so they all killed themselves over it.”

[freyguy 4267]

wake me when China does something beyond bloviated rhetoric....

[Pescado_Rojo 19416]

45 minutes ago, Underdog said:

Meh.  She’s just over there to scout the Taiwan little league, see what our young lads of summer are up against. 

I haven't looked, but I'm going to guess they have a few 6'1" 12 year old pitchers that throw low 90s. 

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20395]

15 minutes ago, Surly Bevo said:

They need us a lot. We need them a lot. As long as that remains the delicate balance ain’t no real shit happening.

 

In a sane world, this would be true. 

Then again, in a sane world, Putin would not have invaded Ukraine.

I think you're valuing the sanity/wisdom of our collective leaders a wee bit too much. 

 

[WhatTheBuck 28776]

5 minutes ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

Then again, in a sane world, Putin would not have invaded Ukraine.

And China sees how that didn’t quite work out the way Putin planned. 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13510]

The US and the rest of the world screwed up by ever allowing China to get their panties in a wad about the mention of Taiwan. Now is anyone says country and Taiwan in the same sentence, China wants to go to war.

When are we going to rip off this bandaid and recognize Taiwan? It wasn't like we weren't recognizing HK or Macau in the past.

and our Speaker can go to any place in the world where we're invited. 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

1 hour ago, 'stache said:

Can someone fill me in why this visit is such a problem for them as opposed to several past visits from U.S. politicians and high ranking officials in recent years?

This is what I’m wondering. Their panic about this seems to me to indicate weakness/vulnerability on their part.

[crash_davis 23107]

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/08/02/politics/nancy-pelosi-visit-taipei-taiwan-trip/index.html

She landed. 

 

[David Dennison 18854]

1 hour ago, crash_davis said:

I'm not against Pelosi going. I just want our military and Biden to be totally in synch with the worst case scenario cause it could get ugly. China seems to be itching for a fight. We may be in a reciprocal mood. This may or may not be the match.

China wants no part of a military conflict with the United States. 

['stache 21802]

Well goddamned, what's the problem again? I'm pretty sure Biden just needs a basis to say "hey I told her it was a bad idea but I'm not a fucking dictator .... oops, I mean she's scary as fuck, I ain't telling that woman what to do."

 

Bipartisan praise

A group of more than two dozen Senate Republicans, including Senate GOP Leader Mitch McConnell, issued a statement supporting Pelosi's congressional delegation, which was all Democrats, landing in Taiwan.

"We support Speaker of the House of Representatives Nancy Pelosi's trip to Taiwan," the Republicans said. "For decades, members of the United States Congress, including previous Speakers of the House, have travelled to Taiwan. This travel is consistent with the United States' One China policy to which we are committed. We are also committed now, more than ever, to all elements of the Taiwan Relations Act."

McConnell praised Pelosi's arrival in Taiwan, saying Tuesday that he believes "she has every right to go."

"It's been unseemly and counterproductive for President Biden and his aides to have publicly sought to deter her from doing so," the Kentucky Republican said. "I welcome the speaker's display of support for Taiwan's democracy, but I hope she returns from Asia more mindful of the military dimensions of the Chinese threat, and more committed to working with Republican to address the changing balance of military power out in the region."

[Eastwood 4394]

She couldn’t back out of the trip after China threatened. The US has a credibility issue as an ally and I actually like flipping the bird to the second largest super power in the world with a move that signals our commitment to an ally. People can worry about escalating tensions all they want, but the reality is that China is not, had not, will not ever be a friend to the United States. They will continue to trade with us because it makes them rich and provides a plethora of strategic inroads into our critical infrastructure. Food, materials, electronics with built in hardware backdoors, apps with malicious code, you name it. 
 

To sum it up, we can’t hurt our relationship with China because China doesn’t conduct diplomacy in good faith. We’ll never have a mutually beneficial relationship with China under Xi. 

Edited August 2, 2022 by Eastwood

[Bateshorn 9927]

Much like SW Missouri State getting the banhammer  from the NCAA every time Auburn gets caught cheating, I feel for whatever the Chinese are going to do to the Uighurs and Tibet after this.