Will America recover?

[Brisketexan 105083]

1 minute ago, F250 said:

My kids live in a lily white world of privledge which is why we insist they understand the importance of service to the less fortunate. They are pretty familiar with the costs of poverty. For me to tell them they are fucked because Donald Trump is President when there are actual people already living harsh lives is unrealistic. I spend a lot of my time trying to keep things in perspective for them. Upper-Middle-Class problems is a phrase I probably drop too much.

Anyways, didn't mean to go off on a tangent.

We have DRILLED that lesson into our kids -- they have an OBLIGATION to help others less fortunate than their privilege asses.  I truly hope that my daughter chooses to stay in the US and to fight for this country; it's worth fighting for, I still think.  Wherever she goes, it will be someplace hospitable to kindness and decency.

This country is not that place.  It isn't right now.  And I don't think it will be for quite some time, if ever again.  Let's not forget that for most of human history, "fuck the poor" has been the dominant creed of nations and empires.  The US is simply returning to the mean.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

1 minute ago, Lagunamadre said:

This effects people who can't find time to vote and move a lot. Does that more often describe a white middle-class suburban voter or a minimum wage minority voter? 

 

Do they have their mail forwarded when they move? It's a pretty simple process to update your voter information. Why don't we want to have updated voter rolls?

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Meh.  Mine see clearly how we've fucked it all up.  We've also raised them to have a global perspective, travel, experience other people and cultures, etc.

As a result, at least one of my kids has little interest in living out her life in this country.  She'll most likely end up in the EU.  I'll hate the fact that she'll be that far away.  But I can't blame her.

We're a fading empire, almost entirely due to self-inflicted wounds.  We'll continue to be a "house divided" for decades to come.  The historical selling points of life in the good ole US of A ain't as persuasive as they once were.

And the EU is in ascendancy, and doesn't have similar problems we have  ?  The world is getting  smaller not bigger and thinking that living in the EU is somehow better is a failure in realizing  the reality of the world.

 

The EU will see shit go south sooner (and be on the front line) than we will that's for sure, if even from a strictly geographical perspective.

[Brisketexan 105083]

1 minute ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

And the EU is in ascendancy, and doesn't have similar problems we have  ?  The world is getting  smaller not bigger and thinking that living in the EU is somehow better is a failure in realizing  the reality of the world.

 

The EU will see shit go south sooner (and be on the front line) than we will that's for sure, if even from a strictly geographical perspective.

The EU has its own brand of troubles.  No place is paradise, because every place is occupied by small-minded idiots to some extent, and the world is certainly seeing a wrong-headed reflexive rejection of the liberal (the Economist "liberal") ideas that created the most prosperous and peaceful era in human history.

But having spent time in and dealing with folks in both places....I prefer the approach of human beings in the EU.  I'd also be good with her in Canada.

The world is going to see multiple dueling powers -- the US, the EU, and China -- for decades to come.  All will have their challenges.  We'll continue to shoot ourselves in the spot where our dick used to be.

[Lagunamadre 1975]

4 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Do they have their mail forwarded when they move? It's a pretty simple process to update your voter information. Why don't we want to have updated voter rolls?

They can't afford to have their mail forwarded.

We know you want updated voter rolls so that when thousands of people who lean democrat show up to vote they find that they are no longer on the rolls. 

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

1 minute ago, Lagunamadre said:

They can't afford to have their mail forwarded.

Uh...wut?

It's free. 

You're just playing, right?

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The EU has its own brand of troubles.  No place is paradise, because every place is occupied by small-minded idiots to some extent, and the world is certainly seeing a wrong-headed reflexive rejection of the liberal (the Economist "liberal") ideas that created the most prosperous and peaceful era in human history.

But having spent time in and dealing with folks in both places....I prefer the approach of human beings in the EU.  I'd also be good with her in Canada.

The world is going to see multiple dueling powers -- the US, the EU, and China -- for decades to come.  All will have their challenges.  We'll continue to shoot ourselves in the spot where our dick used to be.

The EU has many of the same and more problems than we do. The size alone of our country makes it a far different place on every level.  I like the EU to when its on vacation,  and like their more international outlook, but for long term stability and a place at the top, it's the US, and will be for quite some time.

[Lagunamadre 1975]

2 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Uh...wut?

It's free. 

You're just playing, right?

I just moved and paid to have my mail forwarded, guess I got ripped off. Didn't know there was a free service. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, Lagunamadre said:

I just moved and paid to have my mail forwarded, guess I got ripped off. Didn't know there was a free service. 

Maybe you shouldn't be allowed to vote......

[Lagunamadre 1975]

8 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Uh...wut?

It's free. 

You're just playing, right?

Shoot me a link to the free forwarding service? For future reference. 

[David Dennison 18851]

23 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

What ?  What do they pay ? If you're physically fit and can't find a job in this economy,  you're taking from everyone else.

Sales tax, property tax (via rent, mostly), FICA if they have a job, etc.

If you're physically fit and can't find a job and don't have dependents, you do not qualify for government assistance outside of Medicaid and SNAP. Hell, in some states, Texas being one of them, you can't even get Medicaid unless you have a dependent.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, Lagunamadre said:

Shoot me a link to the free forwarding service? For future reference. 

It's a card you fill out at your local post office.  I did it for my office move less than a year ago.

[Brisketexan 105083]

5 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

The EU has many of the same and more problems than we do. The size alone of our country makes it a far different place on every level.  I like the EU to when its on vacation,  and like their more international outlook, but for long term stability and a place at the top, it's the US, and will be for quite some time.

The trending arrows are pointing in opposite directions.  My kids are young.  I can't blame them for wanting to get on the elevator that's going up instead of down, even if the "down" one is presently on a higher floor than the other.

[BabaYaga 15289]

Just now, Onboard 2.0 said:

It's a card you fill out at your local post office.  I did it for my office move less than a year ago.

There is "regular" that doesn't cost and "premium" that costs $20 +/-

[Lagunamadre 1975]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

There is "regular" that doesn't cost and "premium" that costs $20 +/-

The regular I see costs a dollar and require a credit card. Where is the free one? 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

The trending arrows are pointing in opposite directions.  My kids are young.  I can't blame them for wanting to get on the elevator that's going up instead of down, even if the "down" one is presently on a higher floor than the other.

I have doubts about your message. You raise your kids as you see fit, but based on what you post here I don't think there's much optimism going on In your household.  And signals pointing otherwise. The EU isn't exactly the economic powerhouse we are. Last I saw only Germany was really pulling its weight.

[BabaYaga 15289]

1 minute ago, Lagunamadre said:

The regular I see costs a dollar and require a credit card. Where is the free one? 

That's for identity verification purposes.  Don't be disingenuous. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 minutes ago, Lagunamadre said:

The regular I see costs a dollar and require a credit card. Where is the free one? 

I asked for one, filled it out left, and my mail was forwarded, no charge.  Is the $1.00 something new or maybe I just scammed the PO.

[Lagunamadre 1975]

Just now, BabaYaga said:

That's for identity verification purposes.  Don't be disingenuous. 

So if you don't have a credit card? Or a bank account? Like 100's of thousands of Americans? 

[Incredulity 11657]

1 minute ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I have doubts about your message. You raise your kids as you see fit, but based on what you post here I don't think there's much optimism going on In your household.  And signals pointing otherwise. The EU isn't exactly the economic powerhouse we are. Last I saw only Germany was really pulling its weight.

Exactly.  The EU being put forth as a paragon of economic growth is a fucking joke.  

[David Dennison 18851]

1 minute ago, Incredulity said:

Exactly.  The EU being put forth as a paragon of economic growth is a fucking joke.  

They are right behind the United States in terms of GDP. The difference is minimal.

Edited June 11, 2018 by David Dennison

[GRHorn 105]

26 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Meh.  Mine see clearly how we've fucked it all up.  We've also raised them to have a global perspective, travel, experience other people and cultures, etc.

As a result, at least one of my kids has little interest in living out her life in this country.  She'll most likely end up in the EU.  I'll hate the fact that she'll be that far away.  But I can't blame her.

We're a fading empire, almost entirely due to self-inflicted wounds.  We'll continue to be a "house divided" for decades to come.  The historical selling points of life in the good ole US of A ain't as persuasive as they once were.

Man this is a negative attitude.  I’m actually  kind of impressed.  

To me, the fact that we are a fading, decaying empire isn’t a reason to run to some place with equal or worse problems. Our country is still based on the best framework of government created.  Whatever upheaval happens the next 10-20  years I hope to be a part of a rebirth of sorts.  

[formermav43 4606]

Threads like this remind me of New England housewives burying their Bibles in the garden or hiding them in the well because the atheist Jefferson was going to confiscate and burn them.

[David Dennison 18851]

7 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

Man this is a negative attitude.  I’m actually  kind of impressed.  

To me, the fact that we are a fading, decaying empire isn’t a reason to run to some place with equal or worse problems. Our country is still based on the best framework of government created.  Whatever upheaval happens the next 10-20  years I hope to be a part of a rebirth of sorts.  

That is not necessarily true. Our constitution is archaic and the system of government it created does not really work all that well in the modern world. 

[RandomIdoit 655]

42 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Which should tell you that a whole lot of people in this country don't make much money.

When income is heavily concentrated among a few people at the very top, those few people will be responsible for a huge share of total income tax revenue, because they make all of the income. It doesn't mean that everyone else is benefiting from the system; the system itself concentrates income at the top and it's the people at the top who benefit. It ensures and protects their status, while exploiting everyone who makes less. 

They already are. If you said get rid of the loopholes so they would pay their fair share, I would be all for that. If you say everyone who currently does not have a negative income tax, should pay more so those that do have a negative income tax can get even more, that is when I disagree.

[Brisketexan 105083]

23 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I have doubts about your message. You raise your kids as you see fit, but based on what you post here I don't think there's much optimism going on In your household.  And signals pointing otherwise. The EU isn't exactly the economic powerhouse we are. Last I saw only Germany was really pulling its weight.

They don't need any messaging from me.  We still take the Economist in paper form -- they read what's on our coffee table, same as everyone else in the house.  Like I said, read the collective trend arrows, not the current placement or a single stat.

21 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Exactly.  The EU being put forth as a paragon of economic growth is a fucking joke.  

See the post below.

20 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

They are right behind the United States in terms of GDP. The difference is minimal.

$19.3 trillion, followed by $17.1 trillion.  And, there's this:

http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/30/news/economy/gdp-europe-economy-2017/index.html

Quote

Europe's economy grew faster than the U.S. last year....

19 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

Man this is a negative attitude.  I’m actually  kind of impressed.  

To me, the fact that we are a fading, decaying empire isn’t a reason to run to some place with equal or worse problems. Our country is still based on the best framework of government created.  Whatever upheaval happens the next 10-20  years I hope to be a part of a rebirth of sorts.  

Our "best framework" system has a fatal flaw.  That flaw is (1) an ignorant, easily manipulated electorate, and (2) a failsafe mechanism that depends on the party in control of the Senate putting the good of the country ahead of their endless thirst for power.  It's a hole big enough for a tyrant to drive a truck through.  

I want my kids to grow up and live their lives around as many decent and kind people as they can.  If they can find that here someday, great.  If they find that overseas, so be it.

I'd prefer that they stay and fight for this country, and to make it better.  But I can't tell them that it wouldn't be a waste of time an effort, either.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Brisketexan

[Chuckie Finster 22694]

21 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

Man this is a negative attitude.  I’m actually  kind of impressed.  

To me, the fact that we are a fading, decaying empire isn’t a reason to run to some place with equal or worse problems. Our country is still based on the best framework of government created.  Whatever upheaval happens the next 10-20  years I hope to be a part of a rebirth of sorts.  

It's funny, when Trump gave his acceptance speech at the RNC in 2016, I could not relate to what he was saying at all.  I wondered what country he was living in, because I did not see the shithole he was describing.

Two years later, ironically thanks mostly to him, I get it now.

[Incredulity 11657]

7 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

$19.3 trillion, followed by $17.1 trillion.  And, there's this:

The 12.8% difference isn't "minimal".

Hopefully, your children find happiness wherever they end up.  I would strongly encourage anyone to experience first hand EU contries and the associated lifestyles/opportunites.

There are far greater economic opportunities in the US than any other country or amalgamation of countries.

[David Dennison 18851]

3 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

The 12.8% difference isn't "minimal".

Hopefully, your children find happiness wherever they end up.  I would strongly encourage anyone to experience first hand EU contries and the associated lifestyles/opportunites.

There are far greater economic opportunities in the US than any other country or amalgamation of countries.

That is a myth. There are just as many economic opportunities in the EU and other western democracies. There's also the quality of life issue. The US lags well behind other western democracies in that metric.

Edited June 11, 2018 by David Dennison

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

That is a myth. There are just as many economic opportunities in the EU and other western democracies. There's also the quality of life issue. The US lags well behind other western democracies in that metric.

I'll get your ticket if you promise to leave....for the promise land that is...

[Anastasis 23464]

mail forwarding talk not going away. 

[Incredulity 11657]

5 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

That is a myth. There are just as many economic opportunities in the EU and other western democracies. There's also the quality of life issue. The US lags well behind other western democracies in that metric.

Bullshit.  I have lived in and done business in Germany (the powerhouse of the EU)and done business in several other EU countries.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Incredulity

[David Dennison 18851]

Just now, Onboard 2.0 said:

I'll get your ticket if you promise to leave....for the promise land that is...

So instead of trying to improve the areas in which we lag, your answer is get out.

Typical.

[Anastasis 23464]

22 minutes ago, RandomIdoit said:

They already are. If you said get rid of the loopholes so they would pay their fair share, I would be all for that. If you say everyone who currently does not have a negative income tax, should pay more so those that do have a negative income tax can get even more, that is when I disagree.

Sorrry, what were you saying, I didn't catch that.

[David Dennison 18851]

Just now, Incredulity said:

Bullshit.  I have lived in and done business in Germany(the powerhouse of the EU).

That's nice, but it doesn't mean a thing.

[Incredulity 11657]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

That's nice, but it doesn't mean a thing.

But the Huffington Post telling you "Europe is Bestest" does?  

 

[hpslugga 4058]

Just now, Incredulity said:

But the Huffington Post telling you "Europe is Bestest" does?  

You’re offering ipse dixit and your own personal anecdote. Not doing much to help your case.

[David Dennison 18851]

1 minute ago, Incredulity said:

But the Huffington Post telling you "Europe is Bestest" does?  

 

No, the numbers tell me that. Europe leads the United States in a whole host of economic and social metrics. America is good at collective nostalgia and pretending like we're the greatest country on earth, when in reality there are a lot of other countries with a better quality of life and just as many if not more economic opportunities.

[Incredulity 11657]

Just now, hpslugga said:

You’re offering ipse dixit and your own personal anecdote. Not doing much to help your case.

You know you're right.  I will take Mother Jones word on the qualities of life and economic opportunities under socialism versus my own experiences.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

5 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

So instead of trying to improve the areas in which we lag, your answer is get out.

Typical.

I'm sorry, what areas of improvement did you offer ?  Your post pretty much says they're better or soon to be so.  so go on. I applaud your move

[David Dennison 18851]

Just now, Onboard 2.0 said:

I'm sorry, what areas of improvement did you offer ?  Your post pretty much says they're better or soon to be so.  so go on. I applaud your move

Falling back on the sad old "We're number one!" mantra allows other countries who know better to embarrass our leader like they did at the G-7. 

[Dertyberd 394]

22 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

The 12.8% difference isn't "minimal".

Hopefully, your children find happiness wherever they end up.  I would strongly encourage anyone to experience first hand EU contries and the associated lifestyles/opportunites.

There are far greater economic opportunities in the US than any other country or amalgamation of countries.

Having lived in the EU for almost 5 years and running a small business and attempting to start others, I agree, it is harder to get rich.  America is still the place to hopefully get rich starting a small business.  I can only speak for myself, but the peace of mind (crime, healthcare, community, workers rights) that comes with day to day life in the EU blows away the anxieties of living and trying to hit it big in the US.  We are a fantastic country to get rich and then run off and hide on a ranch or gated community, but the anxieties here are ridiculous.  We are all one health scare away from poverty and no one gives a fuck.  

Money and investment is easier to find here, but happiness in daily life is off the charts over there.  Even in 2008-2013 horrible economy Spain my life was better there except for the money.  Being an American though, it is damn difficult to not have the belief that I deserve to hit it big and be successful.  Then, ultimately say "Peace out bitches, going to travel and enjoy my ranch away from the daily shit.  In the meantime, I grind for low wages trying to hit the big one while I worry about getting sick, the cost of the commute, and the toll its taking on my happiness.  Just like every true blooded American should do.  

Edited June 11, 2018 by Dertyberd
5 years, went by so fast it seemed shorter

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, David Dennison said:

Falling back on the sad old "We're number one!" mantra allows other countries who know better to embarrass our leader like they did at the G-7. 

Man another $20 I could have made on a tired typical repsonse post.   When did I  do that ? Please again, tell me how we're going to be over taken, and how do we stem the tide.  Too late right now that Trumps president, its over.  Are there two seats out on that ledge Briskets residing on ?

[Brisketexan 105083]

5 minutes ago, Dertyberd said:

Having lived in the EU for almost 4 years and running a small business and attempting to start others, I agree, it is harder to get rich.  America is still the place to hopefully get rich starting a small business.  I can only speak for myself, but the peace of mind (crime, healthcare, community, workers rights) that comes with day to day life in the EU blows away the anxieties of living and trying to hit it big in the US.  We are a fantastic country to get rich and then run off and hide on a ranch or gated community, but the anxieties here are ridiculous.  We are all one health scare away from poverty and no one gives a fuck.  

Money and investment is easier to find here, but happiness in daily life is off the charts over there.  Even in 2008-2013 horrible economy Spain my life was better there except for the money.  Being an American though, it is damn difficult to not have the belief that I deserve to hit it big and be successful.  Then, ultimately say "Peace out bitches, going to travel and enjoy my ranch away from the daily shit.  In the meantime, I grind for low wages trying to hit the big one while I worry about getting sick, the cost of the commute, and the toll its taking on my happiness.  Just like every true blooded American should do.  

This.  I doubt either of my kids will be focused on becoming a billionaire.  They want to be around good people, do good for other people, and be happy.  This country is not the high-percentage play for those goals.

We're coasting on our past success, running around declaring ourselves "WE'RE NUMBER ONE!" as loud as we can...but that don't make it so.

[Jack Burton 35]

26 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

mail forwarding talk not going away. 

Haha seriously. It's free and easy

[Jack Burton 35]

28 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Bullshit.  I have lived in and done business in Germany (the powerhouse of the EU)and done business in several other EU countries.

You have unlimited characters to tell us about it

[Incredulity 11657]

9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

This.  I doubt either of my kids will be focused on becoming a billionaire.  They want to be around good people, do good for other people, and be happy.  This country is not the high-percentage play for those goals.

We're coasting on our past success, running around declaring ourselves "WE'RE NUMBER ONE!" as loud as we can...but that don't make it so.

The biggest "good" anyone can do for others is founding a business the sync's with their values and provides opportunities for others to extract value from their work.  That is by far more likely to occur in the US.

People are people.  No different in the EU or USA.  

[Brisketexan 105083]

4 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

The biggest "good" anyone can do for others is founding a business the sync's with their values and provides opportunities for others to extract value from their work.  That is by far more likely to occur in the US.

People are people.  No different in the EU or USA.  

No, founding a business isn't always the biggest "good" that you can do.  There's plenty of other things that do an incredible amount of good.  Being a decent human being who actually gives a shit about other human beings is a good starting point.  That ideal is literally the vilified enemy in this country right now.

People are people to some extent.  But cultures matter (I think we've seen the negative example in many middle eastern regions in recent years, as just one example).  People are people, but sometimes cultures do good, and sometimes they enable and embrace evil (see the contrast in Germany over the past century).  Our culture is sick.  Our culture elevates the individual to a level equal with God, and scorns the other, disdains community and any sense of communalism, and celebrates being callous and cruel.  I mean, we fucking VOTED for that, and elevated it to the highest office in the land.  We're a sick country, and not only do we show no signs of getting better, we're getting sicker.

[Incredulity 11657]

3 minutes ago, Jack Burton said:

You have unlimited characters to tell us about it

In my experience rules and regulations are orders of magnitude more byzantine in Germany than US(it ain't easy here, but you are more likely to get some grace from gov't in the US than Germany).  Access to goods and services is far easier in US, there are more options for good or service X(competition is greater).  

Quality of life: History/Cultural experiences are amazing, far less abundance(could be a positive through one lens, I did miss things like piles of NY steaks in grocery stores), German people in large part live up to the sterotype of being cold fish.  I was young and healthy so can't really comment on Healthcare.

[SKJ 1311]

2 hours ago, RandomIdoit said:

 

Semantics. Why don't we just pool all of our money together and divide it equally between everyone? 

 

Umm...

Is that even near an equivalent thought?

Wouldn't it be more representative if your tax burden was the percentage of income you make?

I mean, if I earned 30% of the total income in America, and you earned 1%, do you think if I paid 30% more of a total tax burden that it would be unfair?

I'll tell you right now that paying that much tax wouldn't make me want to change incomes with you