Will America recover?

[fattyflattie 4639]

3 hours ago, FondrenRoad said:

The nerve of people wanting to get paid enough to live after putting in the physical labor required to make a business owner wealthy.

Maybe they should hang a shingle? 

Bitching and complaining is waaaaay easier though, so...

[FondrenRoad 4378]

2 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Maybe they should hang a shingle? 

Bitching and complaining is waaaaay easier though, so...

If everyone hung their own shingle, who is gonna flip the burgers at your restaurant?

[BabaYaga 15301]

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

This.

I believe in free enterprise and profit.

I believe that it is society's benefit to have reasonable wages available to the bottom half of folks (remember, 50% of folks are of below median intelligence).  If you don't, the natives get restless.  Thus, I believe that NOT having that available is at society's peril.

I believe that some people have significant enough advantages or disadvantages that they are extremely likely to end up in a particular segment of the income bracket.  If you are born poor, to a single parent, with a shitty education, the odds are against you.  While some individuals can achieve, the odds are that the majority will need some sort of help beyond their family unit to achieve.

I believe that it is to society's benefit to ensure that people don't fall into the poverty trap with no way out - thus, I believe in a reasonable social safety net.

I believe in the dignity of work.  People are healthier, feel better about themselves, have more ambition, etc., when they can work for a living.  Key words are "work" and "a living."  Both need to be available.

 

If we can agree on some core principles, then we can talk about solutions that take all of them into account.  The extremes of "pull yourself up by your bootstraps, you're on your own!" and "the government owes everyone a basic income no matter what" are absurd, and should merit neither mention nor rebuttal.  Chuck those out, and let's look at the vast swath of options in the middle that satisfy these values.  If you have some other values that we need to consider, by all means, let's toss them in the mix -- I don't pretend that I know them all.

Well, I believe in the soul... the cock...the pussy... the small of a woman's back... the hangin' curveball... high fiber... good scotch... that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent overrated crap... I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a Constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve, and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days. Goodnight.

[sheeeit 129]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

We’ve all seen it.

And it goes beyond that. Compare the purchasing power in terms of rent, food, and utilities, of that HEB job in 1980 vs today. Purchasing power has taken a beating across the board (college tuition is the most disproportionate for sure).

I was curious about this so did a little checking.  The results surprised me.  Of course this is only a snapshot and lots of the info was given in averages but interesting.

Cashier average hourly 1980- $5.15, milk $1.89 (.37 of wage), gas $1.25 (.24), rent $310 (60.2), levis $26 (5)

Cashier average hourly 2017- $9.15, milk $3.22 (.35), gas $2.60 (.28), rent $840 (91), levis $38 (4.1)

This is certainly not scientific at all but for the price of most basic goods, the cost today is very equivalent to the price in 1980.  I would suspect that medical care is higher proportionately now but it is damned hard to get true numbers.

[Hank Scorpio 17729]

Myth Vs. Fact: Homelessness

MYTH: It’s expensive to house the homeless.

FACT: Our prison system is quite profitable.

---

MYTH: The homeless spend their money on drugs and alcohol.

FACT: You also do that.

---

MYTH: People think the homeless are a bunch of drug addicts uninterested in improving their lot in life.

FACT: True, our society does lack empathy.

---

MYTH: Homeless people don’t want jobs.

FACT: Nobody wants a job.

---

MYTH: Homeless people can make hundreds of dollars a day panhandling.

FACT: Almost all of that money goes to the IRS due to panhandlers’ tax status as independent contractors.

---

MYTH: The homeless epidemic disproportionally affects people of color, disabled people, and veterans.

FACT: Sure, if you’re going to cherry-pick.

---

MYTH: Homeless people are often mentally unstable and can be a danger to themselves and others.

FACT: You’re thinking of the incredibly wealthy.

[FondrenRoad 4378]

13 minutes ago, sheeeit said:

I was curious about this so did a little checking.  The results surprised me.  Of course this is only a snapshot and lots of the info was given in averages but interesting.

Cashier average hourly 1980- $5.15, milk $1.89 (.37 of wage), gas $1.25 (.24), rent $310 (60.2), levis $26 (5)

Cashier average hourly 2017- $9.15, milk $3.22 (.35), gas $2.60 (.28), rent $840 (91), levis $38 (4.1)

This is certainly not scientific at all but for the price of most basic goods, the cost today is very equivalent to the price in 1980.  I would suspect that medical care is higher proportionately now but it is damned hard to get true numbers.

They have to work 31 more hours just to pay the rent before they start worrying about basic goods or healthcare. 

[sheeeit 129]

28 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

This.

I believe in free enterprise and profit.

I believe that it is society's benefit to have reasonable wages available to the bottom half of folks (remember, 50% of folks are of below median intelligence).  If you don't, the natives get restless.  Thus, I believe that NOT having that available is at society's peril.

I believe that some people have significant enough advantages or disadvantages that they are extremely likely to end up in a particular segment of the income bracket.  If you are born poor, to a single parent, with a shitty education, the odds are against you.  While some individuals can achieve, the odds are that the majority will need some sort of help beyond their family unit to achieve.

I believe that it is to society's benefit to ensure that people don't fall into the poverty trap with no way out - thus, I believe in a reasonable social safety net.

I believe in the dignity of work.  People are healthier, feel better about themselves, have more ambition, etc., when they can work for a living.  Key words are "work" and "a living."  Both need to be available.

 

If we can agree on some core principles, then we can talk about solutions that take all of them into account.  The extremes of "pull yourself up by your bootstraps, you're on your own!" and "the government owes everyone a basic income no matter what" are absurd, and should merit neither mention nor rebuttal.  Chuck those out, and let's look at the vast swath of options in the middle that satisfy these values.  If you have some other values that we need to consider, by all means, let's toss them in the mix -- I don't pretend that I know them all.

I agree with this and, I think my proposal would achieve what you are looking for.  For those that are truly disabled (either physically or mentally) we need to support them for life.  For the able bodied that were born into bad situations, we need to make every effort to support them long enough for them to succeed.  

The really hard answers are for those people who are clearly able bodied but continue to make bad decisions (often drug related) and wind up unemployable.  Right now most of them end up in prison.  We will never get 100% but we can certainly set a goal of getting say 50% of people that are currently able bodied but on govt help off of it within 3 years.  

[Buzzrock 14926]

I'm not convinced trump doesnt win again.   His base sees no fault in him, and he keeps pandering to them and they stay energized.  I'll be uneasy until november 4, 2020.

People were saying the Republicans will never win again before the last election. If the economy is still humming in two years then I wouldn’t put money on Trump losing.

[Buzzrock 14926]

well, you are wrong. it was henry ford that said "paying good wages is not charity at all - it's the best kind of business."
we've lost sight of that in some sectors, especially as it relates to unskilled labor. in fact, working at a fast food restaurant or a grocery store isn't unskilled. you do learn skills on the job. they may seem menial to us, but balancing your register, properly preparing food, dealing with the fucking public - all these things are actual skills.
as a society, if we demean the least of our labor pool, and designate them to shit wages that require public assistance (that's our tax dollars, btw, let's not overlook that these corporations who treat unskilled labor like shit are basically subsidized for their labor by you and me), then we marginalize them and by doing so, we are minimizing their purchasing power, which should be part of the engine of our economy.
but whatever.

I think helping people is good and necessary but government mandated wages is economically unfeasible. It’s Econ 101.

I’d be in favor of a guaranteed minimum income and no minimum wage.

[Buzzrock 14926]

People worked part-time flipping burgers 20-30 years ago to pay for all college tuition and board. I think there kids should get the same luxury and get a living wage.

That’s a different conversation. In 1990 I was paying $2200 a year in tuition at one of the best engineering schools in the country.

[hayden_horn 11362]

1 minute ago, Buzzrock said:

 

I think helping people is good and necessary but government mandated wages is economically unfeasible. It’s Econ 101.

I’d be in favor of a guaranteed minimum income and no minimum wage.

 

i'm living in a fake universe where employers see the societal benefit to paying their people a living wage.

[Incredulity 11675]

27 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

They have to work 31 more hours just to pay the rent before they start worrying about basic goods or healthcare. 

To be fully honest about it the increase cost of housing is directly tied to

1.) government regulation(zoning/system development fees/efficiency standards and other gov requirements)

2.) size and amenities of “average home”

[Buzzrock 14926]

The same thing we did with farriers, groomers, and tack makers when horses were replaced by the automobile.  Or longshoremen and dock workers displaced by the sea crate.  Or the advent of the internet and how that was going to crater millions upon millions of jobs.
Paradigms in industry change all the time.  Certain jobs are displaced.  And often a whole new sector is created.  Often, with an enormous net gain.

You get $100 for every 1,000 YouTube views.

[Brisketexan 105161]

To be fully honest about it the increase cost of housing is directly tied to
1.) government regulation(zoning/system development fees/efficiency standards and other gov requirements)
2.) size and amenities of “average home”

You forgot Shitty transportation systems and infrastructure. Seriously, close-in housing is pricier because you don’t have to spend 2 hrs a day to get to work and back. Especially in Austin, that’s a big driver of housing cost.

Add in the “profit margin” issue; nobody builds cheap, affordable apartments. They build “luxury” apartments. Not a big cost difference, but you can charge much higher rents. And yes, that also gets skewed by our “appraise at highest and best use” property tax system.

But it does still come back to stagnant wages in large part. That is a big elephant in the room.

[Buzzrock 14926]

i think this is a fantastic idea. civilian conservation corps, writ 21st century style. of course, in the end, that's taxpayer funded labor. 
so where's that money come from? it all points back to the haves, who better get with the program or eventually face a metaphorical financial guillotine.

Somebody get these guys a raise so they can afford some capital letters.

It’s like reading texts from my kids.

[sheeeit 129]

12 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

They have to work 31 more hours just to pay the rent before they start worrying about basic goods or healthcare. 

That is why I said this is unscientific.  In Austin, very few people make $9.15/hr including cashiers.  I absolutely guarantee you that if someone works for HEB and shows up every day they are scheduled and is conscientious about their job that they will make a lot more than $9.15/hr within a matter of months.  I found multiple apartments in a 30 second search for about $680/month.  No doubt rent is higher today but that is a factor of a lot of things.  Home ownership cost, on the low end, is actually cheaper proportionately.  You can buy new construction 1600' 3 bed 2 bath in Austin through an FHA loan for about $500/month.

There are certainly things that are proportionately more expensive now and others that are not.  You also did not have the ability to drive around in your own car for a few hours a few nights a week and net $20/hr with services like Uber.  Similarly, no one spent $80/month for a phone in 1980.  I personally thought it was interesting that most staples are pretty close, proportionately, to what they were in 1980.  

The point was to Brisket's comment about a cashier in 1980 versus now.  A person can live pretty close to proportionately the same IF they are willing to live like we did in 1980.  Small house, one car, basic food and clothing, 4-5 free channels of tv, free radio, lots of trips to the park etc.

I am not, however, arguing that people should live that way or in any way think it is realistic to do so.  I am just saying it is possible.  

[Incredulity 11675]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

You forgot Shitty transportation systems and infrastructure. Seriously, close-in housing is pricier because you don’t have to spend 2 hrs a day to get to work and back. Especially in Austin, that’s a big driver of housing cost.

Add in the “profit margin” issue; nobody builds cheap, affordable apartments. They build “luxury” apartments. Not a big cost difference, but you can charge much higher rents. And yes, that also gets skewed by our “appraise at highest and best use” property tax system.

But it does still come back to stagnant wages in large part. That is a big elephant in the room.

Builders build “luxury” rentals or houses because that is what sells.

John Q Citizen is more than happy to make themselves house poor for granite counter tops and 9ft ceilings.

[Buzzrock 14926]

Big op-ed from Jamie Dimon and Buffett regarding public companies and managing to quarterly earning guidance in the WSJ.

That would be a whole other interesting thread. Why is growth at all costs so important?

[Johnny Sack 8397]

32 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

 

People were saying the Republicans will never win again before the last election. If the economy is still humming in two years then I wouldn’t put money on Trump losing.

 

Bad news to all the people dying in the streets.  

[SKJ 1311]

42 minutes ago, sheeeit said:

I agree with this and, I think my proposal would achieve what you are looking for.  For those that are truly disabled (either physically or mentally) we need to support them for life.  For the able bodied that were born into bad situations, we need to make every effort to support them long enough for them to succeed.  

The really hard answers are for those people who are clearly able bodied but continue to make bad decisions (often drug related) and wind up unemployable.  Right now most of them end up in prison.  We will never get 100% but we can certainly set a goal of getting say 50% of people that are currently able bodied but on govt help off of it within 3 years.  

Well, if they've been in prison, they'll most likely be unemployable to a point

[Johnny Sack 8397]

15 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

To be fully honest about it the increase cost of housing is directly tied to

1.) government regulation(zoning/system development fees/efficiency standards and other gov requirements)

2.) size and amenities of “average home”

My home was built in the 50s. Small and simple design.  Small closets and simple bathrooms before we renovated.  

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

5 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Builders build “luxury” rentals or houses because that is what sells.

John Q Citizen is more than happy to make themselves house poor for granite counter tops and 9ft ceilings.

You don't know how many stories I've heard about people happily living in cheap, frumpy 1970s apartments for years. Places with names like Woodmont Apartments. Then the owner dies or sells out. New owners come in and change the name to something like The Parq at Woodmont Fountains. They slap down a cheesy fountain out front and throw some non-native flowers and palm trees around the grounds. Then they come in each unit and smack down some granite and wheel in a couple of second-hand German stainless-steel appliances. And all of a sudden there's an extra $500 due each month. 

[Johnny Sack 8397]

1 minute ago, SKJ said:

Well, if they've been in prison, they'll most likely be unemployable to a point

That’s a problem that should have bipartisan support to fix. And it isn’t that hard. 

[Incredulity 11675]

Both my parents grew up in families of 5 in 2/1 houses of approx 1000 sq ft.  

1 tv, 1 car.

that was the late 50’s(pax americana?) and they were solidly middle class.

paternal Gpa worked for Douglas Aircraft.  Maternal Gpa worked for Bethlehem Steel.  Both died on pensions.  They had good middle class jobs and EXPECTATIONS were vastly different.

 

 

Edited June 12, 2018 by Incredulity

[SKJ 1311]

5 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

That’s a problem that should have bipartisan support to fix. And it isn’t that hard. 

Good luck

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

12 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Both my parents grew up in families of 5 in 2/1 houses of approx 1000 sq ft.  

1 tv, 1 car.

that was the late 50’s(pax americana?) and they were solidly middle class.

paternal Gpa worked for Douglas Aircraft.  Maternal Gpa worked for Bethlehem Steel.  Both died on pensions.  They had good middle class jobs and EXPECTATIONS were vastly different.

 

 

That's all well and good but their grandparents probably grew up having to shit in an outhouse, and your parents would not have been content with that. That's the thing about progress, it's supposed to, you know, progress. 

[Buzzrock 14926]

This.
I believe in free enterprise and profit.
I believe that it is society's benefit to have reasonable wages available to the bottom half of folks (remember, 50% of folks are of below median intelligence).  If you don't, the natives get restless.  Thus, I believe that NOT having that available is at society's peril.
I believe that some people have significant enough advantages or disadvantages that they are extremely likely to end up in a particular segment of the income bracket.  If you are born poor, to a single parent, with a shitty education, the odds are against you.  While some individuals can achieve, the odds are that the majority will need some sort of help beyond their family unit to achieve.
I believe that it is to society's benefit to ensure that people don't fall into the poverty trap with no way out - thus, I believe in a reasonable social safety net.
I believe in the dignity of work.  People are healthier, feel better about themselves, have more ambition, etc., when they can work for a living.  Key words are "work" and "a living."  Both need to be available.
 
If we can agree on some core principles, then we can talk about solutions that take all of them into account.  The extremes of "pull yourself up by your bootstraps, you're on your own!" and "the government owes everyone a basic income no matter what" are absurd, and should merit neither mention nor rebuttal.  Chuck those out, and let's look at the vast swath of options in the middle that satisfy these values.  If you have some other values that we need to consider, by all means, let's toss them in the mix -- I don't pretend that I know them all.

If you don’t think that guaranteed minimum income should be on the table then I don’t think you understand what’s coming in terms of automation.

Either that or you’ve never seen Star Trek. Or both.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

That's all well and good but their grandparents probably grew up having to shit in an outhouse, and your parents would not have been content with that. That's the thing about progress, it's supposed to, you know, progress. 

Friends grand dad hearing that his son bought a house with indoor plumbing.  SHIT ??!!  IN THE HOUSE??!!

[sheeeit 129]

14 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

i'm living in a fake universe where employers see the societal benefit to paying their people a living wage.

Hayden- Your overall point is understood but you should really research Henry Ford if you want to use him as an example because it is not the point you think it is.  Ford is a fascinating man and company.  I did huge paper on him back in college.

Ford had a horrible employee issue when he first started.  It would cost him a lot to train people to be able to work in his factories.  Your line of building a car is about like flipping a burger is just incredibly naive and ignorant.  It MIGHT be close to that 2017 but it most certainly was not in 1908.  Ford really made his mark by improving the manufacturing process for cars.  The cost to train an employee in 1908 was extremely high.  Ford would spend lots of money to train an employee and then that employee would bolt to another auto manufacturer for more money than Ford was paying at the time.  I can not remember the exact number but, at the time of the wage increase, Ford was having to hire 3 workers every year to fill 1 spot.  As a result, Ford increased wages for SKILLED laborers on his assembly line.  He did it for retention.  The best mechanics in the area then flocked to Ford and his net cost to build a car actually went DOWN (for perspective the net cost to produce a hamburger is not going to go down if they double the wages of their employees).  It had the nice byproduct of also allowing him to talk publicly about increased wages, but the market dictated what he had to pay his people to keep them and he paid that rate and nothing more.  Ford also instituted what I think was called the "Social Unit" or something similar and he actually had private investigators watch his employees and would weed out people based on lifestyles he did not like (the biggies were gambling and child support).  It was highly controversial as you can imagine.  Further, Ford was notorious for paying his UNSKILLED labor as little as possible, even to the point that he tried to get his SKILLED folks to cover other duties but they refused.  And he was adamantly opposed to labor unions.  Ford is a classic example of letting the market dictate wages coupled with increasing efficiencies.

Further, a lot of you guys love to rail on how corporations and ceos make so much money.  What Ford earned compared to his employees was greater than today.  In the early 1920s, Ford was earning around $90M annually.  That is equivalent to about $2.5B today.

[Incredulity 11675]

7 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

That's all well and good but their grandparents probably grew up having to shit in an outhouse, and your parents would not have been content with that. That's the thing about progress, it's supposed to, you know, progress. 

Well, then the trope about housing expense as percentage of income should at least be disclaimed with a baseline.

 

Guess what a Maybach costs more as a percentage of average income in 2018 than a Studebaker did in 1955.

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

Just now, Incredulity said:

Well, then the trope about housing expense as percentage of income should at least be disclaimed with a baseline.

 

Guess what a Maybach costs more as a percentage of average income in 2018 than a Studebaker did in 1955.

But again, builders aren't building those 2-1s anymore. In fact they are tearing them down and replacing them with houses few Milennials can afford. 

[Incredulity 11675]

Just now, MaybeACoordinator said:

But again, builders aren't building those 2-1s anymore. In fact they are tearing them down and replacing them with houses few Milennials can afford. 

See my previous post. #417

 

[Buzzrock 14926]

Both my parents grew up in families of 5 in 2/1 houses of approx 1000 sq ft.  
1 tv, 1 car.
that was the late 50’s(pax americana?) and they were solidly middle class.
paternal Gpa worked for Douglas Aircraft.  Maternal Gpa worked for Bethlehem Steel.  Both died on pensions.  They had good middle class jobs and EXPECTATIONS were vastly different.
 
 

The Instagram generation won’t abide by that. Gotta have an iPhone X and an Audi and vacation in the islands 4x a year.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

26 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

 

The Instagram generation won’t abide by that. Gotta have an iPhone X and an Audi and vacation in the islands 4x a year.

 

iPhone X is a right and should be covered by a living wage you insensitive bastard.   So are cars and flat screens  

Edited June 12, 2018 by Johnny Sack

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

33 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

See my previous post. #417

 

But the thing is, there used to be something called a starter home, and now it's an endangered species. Lots of youngsters want some shack to start a family in and then start saving to get that fancy house, but that option is rarely there nowadays, and getting harder and harder to find all the time. 

[Brisketexan 105161]

43 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

 

If you don’t think that guaranteed minimum income should be on the table then I don’t think you understand what’s coming in terms of automation.

Either that or you’ve never seen Star Trek. Or both.

 

I saw a lot of Next Generation.  Pretty sure that Wesley used the simulator for a LOT of alien porn sessions.

And I have posted about my concerns about automation before, and I definitely share your concerns there.  That's it's own question, with some real overlap in the long-term.  Still, I think we can and should avoid the guaranteed minimum income because its social negatives are huge: it creates resentment by those folks who work (and perhaps earn only a bit more than the the folks receiving the benefit); it's terrible for human psychology - we NEED to have some sense of self-worth, and work is the surest path to that, and if we DON"T have self-worth, a whole host of negatives come with it; it may be an unsustainable cost, even in a highly re-distributive model.

I'd prefer a CCC sort of approach -- put them to work on extra infrastructure projects.  Put them to work in additional government jobs -- yes, we'd be paying tax dollars, but we'd get benefits. I'd LOVE it if we had amazing national parks with a heavy staff of rangers, park maintenance, and the like.

Folks are going to need jobs, for WHATEVER reason (automation or not).  They are going to need to earn a living wage.  If they don't have those things, we're going to be in a very shitty spot.  If the market on its own is not going to be flexible enough to deal with the situation, we need to find other ways to respond.  Not to give money away, not to force private employers to do economically counter-productive things.  But totally outside of that model.

[Brisketexan 105161]

2 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

But the thing is, there used to be something called a starter home, and now it's an endangered species. Lots of youngsters want some shack to start a family in and then start saving to get that fancy house, but that option is rarely there nowadays, and getting harder and harder to find all the time. 

A good example is even LOWER income housing -- mobile homes. There used to be thousands of those units available in Austin.  They were a good choice for folks working in housekeeping, installing tires, what have you.  But as the dirt they are on has gotten valuable....they are disappearing.  Take those 10 acres, turn it into some fancy apartments that rent for 10X what a mobile home space cost.  And I can't fault the landowner for doing that -- it's worth more and yields more money to do that.  But affordable housing stock disappears that way.

[sheeeit 129]

44 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

But again, builders aren't building those 2-1s anymore. In fact they are tearing them down and replacing them with houses few Milennials can afford. 

Not really true.  In virtually every community, there are subdivisions going in that are smaller starter homes.  Granted they are not in the most desirable locations, but they never will be for long.  There are a number of developments in Austin alone where the houses are priced from $85K to $125K.  Same with Dallas, Houston, Ft Worth etc.

[Sawbonz 27580]

On 6/10/2018 at 11:20 PM, RandomIdoit said:

Dumb question amnesty: How much extra would each person be taxed to pay for single-payer healthcare? 

We pay less than 50 cents of every dollar the govt spends as it is. Why would each person have to pay any extra?

Seriously though you don’t need a true single payer. If you make everyone eligible for Medicare and the default is opt in with an actuarially derived premium, the increase in revenues coupled with the improvement in the health of the overall risk pool would come close to paying for itself. Let the govt negotiate on drug pricing and allow foreign drug companies to import and you’re there. My biggest issue with Obama was he caved to the carriers and pharma and didn’t offer a public option. 

 

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

11 minutes ago, sheeeit said:

Not really true.  In virtually every community, there are subdivisions going in that are smaller starter homes.  Granted they are not in the most desirable locations, but they never will be for long.  There are a number of developments in Austin alone where the houses are priced from $85K to $125K.  Same with Dallas, Houston, Ft Worth etc.

Man I am not seeing what you are seeing, even way out in bumfuck. I am seeing "starting in the low $230s."

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

18 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

A good example is even LOWER income housing -- mobile homes. There used to be thousands of those units available in Austin.  They were a good choice for folks working in housekeeping, installing tires, what have you.  But as the dirt they are on has gotten valuable....they are disappearing.  Take those 10 acres, turn it into some fancy apartments that rent for 10X what a mobile home space cost.  And I can't fault the landowner for doing that -- it's worth more and yields more money to do that.  But affordable housing stock disappears that way.

Manufactured housing in bumfuck is what the RE experts at A&M will tell you is the way of the future. The thing is, you'd better own the dirt your trailer is on or you could get thrown out on your ass at short notice. 

[Biff Tannen 45692]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

 

I'd prefer a CCC sort of approach -- put them to work on extra infrastructure projects.  Put them to work in additional government jobs -- yes, we'd be paying tax dollars, but we'd get benefits. I'd LOVE it if we had amazing national parks with a heavy staff of rangers, park maintenance, and the like.

 

So much this.  

[JohnRedHorn 29]

1 hour ago, sheeeit said:

You also did not have the ability to drive around in your own car for a few hours a few nights a week and net $20/hr with services like Uber.  

HahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[Johnny Sack 8397]

3 minutes ago, JohnRedHorn said:

HahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Who can argue with that?

[sheeeit 129]

6 minutes ago, JohnRedHorn said:

HahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

I have never worked for a company like uber but I am quite familiar with what a driver can earn.  If you are willing to work weekends, at events and during price surges and you can not net $20/hr then you suck at uber.  

[FondrenRoad 4378]

37 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

A good example is even LOWER income housing -- mobile homes. There used to be thousands of those units available in Austin.  They were a good choice for folks working in housekeeping, installing tires, what have you.  But as the dirt they are on has gotten valuable....they are disappearing.  Take those 10 acres, turn it into some fancy apartments that rent for 10X what a mobile home space cost.  And I can't fault the landowner for doing that -- it's worth more and yields more money to do that.  But affordable housing stock disappears that way.

Much of that is happening because white flight reversed and urban living became desirable. While this has caused a lack of affordable housing in urban centers, older inner suburbs with no urban amenities are still affordable in most cities that aren't severely geographically restricted. Even NYC has relatively affordable housing in transit deserts as well as near trains in some close in suburbs. Still, when you have cities like Austin that are experiencing exponential growth while lacking the housing to support it, you're going to have high prices even in relatively undesirable neighborhoods and suburbs. 

[Brisketexan 105161]

1 minute ago, FondrenRoad said:

Much of that is happening because white flight reversed and urban living became desirable. While this has caused a lack of affordable housing in urban centers, older inner suburbs with no urban amenities are still affordable in most cities that aren't severely geographically restricted. Even NYC has relatively affordable housing in transit deserts as well as near trains in some close in suburbs. Still, when you have cities like Austin that are experiencing exponential growth while lacking the housing to support it, you're going to have high prices even in relatively undesirable neighborhoods and suburbs. 

In no small part because of lack of transit and transportation infrastructure.  The quality of life issue really is that big a driver.   Shit, 20 years ago, my wife really wanted us to think about buying a nice, new-construction place out in Round Rock or whatnot, like lots of her friends had (she had some envy).  I said fine, if you want us to end up divorced.  I explained that the two hours a day I spend in my car -- because my job will always have me in/near downtown -- would mean I'm an absentee husband and father for a lot of stuff.

Instead, we live closer in.  Traffic's STILL a bitch, but I spend around 20 mins each way, and could go to kids' school events and baseball games.

Bozo Casanova has some great analysis on how commute issues are a big driver of housing prices.

[sheeeit 129]

Some of this housing talk really misses the point on the original intent of the thread.  I realize it may sound crazy to some, but in the example I provided earlier about a single mom with 2 kids using govt assistance to get a nursing degree, guess what- she might not be able to do it as easily in Austin.  Austin has obviously exploded and that comes with a ton of consequences for those starting out.  But nurses get paid great in every community.  And virtually every major health system will pay for relocation costs.

 

[JohnRedHorn 29]

21 minutes ago, sheeeit said:

I have never worked for a company like uber but I am quite familiar with what a driver can earn.  If you are willing to work weekends, at events and during price surges and you can not net $20/hr then you suck at uber.  

Once again you speak through your ass. Given the costs of car ownership, maintenance, extensive repairs, gas at $2.60 a gallon, and full coverage car insurance I want you to give a detailed realistic financial breakdown of how the cheap rates uber charges can possibly result in a NET of $20/hr for the driver. Also factor in that Uber charges the driver 25% of all fares earned. Go ahead, this should be funny. 

 

My kid almost got suckered into this scam until I sat him down and we worked through the full cost/earnings breakdown. It's so heavily slanted against the driver that it should be Illegal. 

[Bullneck 19181]

12 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Mc Donalds should pay a living wage to fry cooks and burger flippers ?  Grocery store chains should pay a living wage to bag boys, stock workers ?

Oh, God no.  Those people don't deserve a living wage.  They deserve On Board's version of the Iron Law of Wages.