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PayPal insanity

bernorange

By bernorange
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bernorange

bernorange 8359

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Roughly a week ago, news broke out that PayPal had published proposed changes to their AUP (acceptable use policy):

Quote

A new policy update from PayPal will permit the firm to sanction users who advance purported “misinformation” or present risks to user “wellbeing” with fines of up to $2,500 per offense.

The financial services company, which has repeatedly deplatformed organizations and individual commentators for their political views, will expand its “existing list of prohibited activities” on November 3. Among the changes are prohibitions on “the sending, posting, or publication of any messages, content, or materials” that “promote misinformation” or “present a risk to user safety or wellbeing.” Users are also barred from “the promotion of hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory.”
...


https://www.dailywire.com/news/new-paypal-policy-lets-company-pull-2500-from-users-accounts-if-they-promote-misinformation

This news went viral on social media with Elon Musk, Scott Adams and other high profile people chiming in.  PayPal then backtracked on the proposed changes:

Quote

PayPal on Oct. 8 said it was not implementing a new policy that would have enabled the company to seize money from users who allegedly promote “misinformation” or “hate.”

“An AUP notice recently went out in error that included incorrect information. PayPal is not fining people for misinformation and this language was never intended to be inserted in our policy,” a PayPal spokesperson told The Epoch Times in an email.

“Our teams are working to correct our policy pages. We’re sorry for the confusion this has caused,” the spokesperson added.
...

https://www.theepochtimes.com/paypal-reverses-course-says-company-will-not-seize-money-for-promoting-misinformation_4783827.html

However, their existing AUP still gives them carte blanche to steal money from account holders at their sole discretion:

Quote

...
And the cited "Restricted Activities and Holds" policy makes clear that "Actions We May Take if You Engage in Any Restricted Activities" are determined based on PayPal making the decision "in our sole discretion," if Paypal "believe that you've engaged in any of these activities."

So if PayPal "in [its] sole discretion" concludes that you're using PayPal "for activities that … relate to transactions involving … promotion of" "discriminatory" "intolerance"—presumably including distributing publications, or for that matter buying publications (since that's an activity related to transactions involving the promotion of certain views)—it can just take $2500 straight from your account.
...

https://reason.com/volokh/2022/10/09/paypal-still-threatens-2500-fines-for-promoting-discriminatory-intolerance-even-if-not-misinformation/

So is the hype over this issue overblown?  Surely PayPal wouldn't just steal money from people, right?  That would be bad for business, right?  Well...

Quote

PayPal is facing a class-action lawsuit alleging that the digital payments company violated racketeering laws by freezing customer funds without offering an explanation.

When users contacted PayPal about the frozen funds, they were told they had violated the company’s “acceptable use policy” but weren’t told how that violation had occurred, the lawsuit says. What’s more, it alleges that in at least one instance, PayPal said that a user would “have to get a subpoena” to find out why.
...

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2022/01/paypal-stole-users-money-after-freezing-seizing-funds-lawsuit-alleges/

Quote

...
The plaintiff, proceeding pro se, contends that PayPal has a widespread practice of freezing then seizing client account funds when it suspects a violation of its acceptable use policy. The Illinois man claims he was a victim of PayPal’s practice and that the company transferred the plaintiff’s balance to its own account and forced him to engage in a protracted process to free the funds.
...

https://lawstreetmedia.com/news/tech/paypal-receives-rico-complaint-over-shoot-first-ask-questions-later-practice-involving-seizure-of-client-funds/

PayPal's existing AUP policy, which you agree to by opening an account and using their service, gives them the right to fine you $2,500 per violation of their AUP at their sole discretion.  No arguing.  No oversight.  No recourse.  It's insane.  

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immamac

immamac 42839

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24 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

Buddy, who trades EDC stuff had $1500 seized. That was last year. He still hasn't gotten a reason, according to him.

You should never keep money in PayPal anyway. They make it too easy to link to a bank account and auto draw when it’s used. 

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UnivTex34

UnivTex34 1763

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Yeah, not anymore, but I bought and sold a TON in the EDC world about 5-7 years ago. Never kept a balance for more than 24 hours (or the timeframe for a deposit to go through). And a few times had several thousand dollars, and sweated that shit. Don’t carry a balance.

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ChickenSandwich

ChickenSandwich 9832

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Today, shares of PayPal fell more than 6% (about $5 billion in market capitalization) after a blowback from the company’s botched acceptable use policy update. PayPal’s stock price has since climbed back up to a loss of 5.86% as of the time of writing.

https://techstartups.com/2022/10/10/paypal-loses-5-billion-market-value-misinformation-2500-debacle-thousands-paypal-users-canceled-accounts/

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bernorange

bernorange 8359

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... Jefferies analyst Trevor Williams said he wasn’t sure that the controversy would spark a mass exodus from the PayPal platform.

He noted in a Wednesday report to clients that data from ListenFirst, which does social-media analytics, indicated that only 70,000 accounts tweeted, retweeted, or liked a tweet with the #DeletePayPal hashtag over the span of Saturday to Monday. For context, PayPal Chief Executive Dan Schulman disclosed on the company’s earnings call that PayPal had “nearly 400 million consumer accounts.”

“If action taken by consumers in response to the policy update/retraction is isolated to those that voiced displeasure via social media (or even a multiple of those that did), we would not expect there to be any noticeable impact on net new active accounts,” Jefferies’ Williams wrote. ...

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/delete-paypal-controversy-unlikely-to-have-any-noticeable-impact-on-paypals-reported-users-analyst-says-11665589807

challenge accepted?  PayPal has been offering folks $15 to not close their accounts.

 

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bernorange

bernorange 8359

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25 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Why can't a private business be allowed to make their own rules as long as they're not targeting protected groups? ...

Why would anyone choose to do business with a company that sets terms such that they can take your money *at their sole discretion*.  No oversight, explanation or recourse.

Everyone other payment processor that I know of (2checkout, Stripe and others) also have AUPs, but they just reserve the right to terminate an account for violations, not steal from you.

Quote

CNBC's Sharon Epperson interviews Consumer Financial Protection Bureau Director Rohit Chopra about the agency's investigation into PayPal.

...

More (video):  https://www.cnbc.com/video/2022/10/12/consumer-watchdog-agency-investigating-fintech-apps-after-paypal-reverses-controversial-user-policy.html

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CHIEF

CHIEF 5079

Posted
Posted
32 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I can send money to people without a fee on Paypal. @NorthLoop

Why can't a private business be allowed to make their own rules as long as they're not targeting protected groups? Paypal isn't a govt organization that has to remain neutral on subjects. 

I don’t know. Maybe stealing money from people for exercising their 1st Amendment rights shouldn’t sit well with most Americans. “I may not like what you say, but defend your right to say it,” has gone completely out the window. It’s censorship under the guise of “ misinformation.” Only PayPal gets to determine what disinformation actually is. 
 

CHIEF

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BehoId, The Underminer!

BehoId, The Underminer! 11669

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Today, shares of PayPal fell more than 6% (about $5 billion in market capitalization) after a blowback from the company’s botched acceptable use policy update. PayPal’s stock price has since climbed back up to a loss of 5.86% as of the time of writing.

https://techstartups.com/2022/10/10/paypal-loses-5-billion-market-value-misinformation-2500-debacle-thousands-paypal-users-canceled-accounts/

wow.  it rocketed back up .14%!?  this roller coaster is out of control!!

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wildcat09

wildcat09 29349

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1 hour ago, bernorange said:

Why would anyone choose to do business with a company that sets terms such that they can take your money *at their sole discretion*.  No oversight, explanation or recourse.

Everyone other payment processor that I know of (2checkout, Stripe and others) also have AUPs, but they just reserve the right to terminate an account for violations, not steal from you.

More (video):  https://www.cnbc.com/video/2022/10/12/consumer-watchdog-agency-investigating-fintech-apps-after-paypal-reverses-controversial-user-policy.html

Seems like a problem the market can work out.

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13510

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, bernorange said:

See last two links in the OP.

Quote

The three lead plaintiffs claim they had nearly $250,000 seized by PayPal. One plaintiff, Shbadan Akylbekov, ran a storefront selling hyaluron pens, which are filled with hyaluronic acid, a dermal filler that is used to reduce wrinkles. He said that PayPal took $172,206.43 from his wife’s account, which he used for his store, with no explanation. After numerous calls and letters to PayPal, he was finally told that the seizure was “for its liquidated damages arising from those [acceptable use policy] violations pursuant to the User Agreement.” He claims he never received a copy of that policy until his account was restricted. 

Later, PayPal said it used those funds to reimburse customers who had purchased hyaluron pens from his store. Akylbekov followed up by asking to see documentation of the customers who requested refunds. A PayPal customer service representative said the report would be available within two days, but Akylbekov says he still hasn’t received it.

A guy is selling sketchy dermatology devices/fillers, and when customers complained to PayPal, they withheld his money. Possibly the guy was not living up to his end of his transactions, such as guarantees.

Also for his business, he was using his wife's PayPal account but he says he never received notice of policies or explanations. While I don't know,  I would also bet that his wife's account is set up as a personal account and not a business account.  Red flags all about this case if this is the main complaint.

And Paypal didn't steal his money. They refunded the money back to their's and his customers who felt they deserved a refund. Payment companies sometimes have to act as referees.  He isn't happy about it, and didn't bother to read the Ts&Cs in his wife's account.

Edited by Nice Guy Eddie
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AUS-97HORN

AUS-97HORN 11757

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

A guy is selling sketchy dermatology devices/fillers, and when customers complained to PayPal, they withheld his money. Possibly the guy was not living up to his end of his transactions, such as guarantees.

Also for his business, he was using his wife's PayPal account but he says he never received notice of policies or explanations. While I don't know,  I would also bet that his wife's account is set up as a personal account and not a business account.  Red flags all about this case if this is the main complaint.

god help me for the grief I am about to get for posting this.

but for whatever reason my brain is wired to actually watch AND listen to commercials. 

The ones I cant stand I mute.... that being said, over the last 2 years L'oreal has been showing an ad with Eva Longoria (I guess I pay attention to her) where she speaks in syllables about Hylauronic acid and its benefits.    Dont use it, dont give a shit... the only reason I remember it is because shes sounding out the fucking word.

 

that being said, if the guy was selling that Hyaluric shit its something the big beauty companies not only sell, but emphasize.   i.e. not entirely on the sketchy level.

Im not saying its not snake oil... but its a beauty enhancer product that supposedly has had some positive  lab results and woman seem to latch onto.

 

found the ad.

 

 

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13510

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Everyone knows PayPal is a shitty company.  Everyone except @Nice Guy Eddie, apparently.  

Meh. I use it infrequently to transfer money to people but I've never had a problem with it.

I guess if I ran a decently sized business ($200K) under someone else's account and had many unhappy customers,  like in the linked story, I would think it was a shitty company too.

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13510

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, AUS-97HORN said:

god help me for the grief I am about to get for posting this.

but for whatever reason my brain is wired to actually watch AND listen to commercials. 

The ones I cant stand I mute.... that being said, over the last 2 years L'oreal has been showing an ad with Eva Longoria (I guess I pay attention to her) where she speaks in syllables about Hylauronic acid and its benefits.    Dont use it, dont give a shit... the only reason I remember it is because shes sounding out the fucking word.

 

that being said, if the guy was selling that Hyaluric shit its something the big beauty companies not only sell, but emphasize.   i.e. not entirely on the sketchy level.

Im not saying its not snake oil... but its a beauty enhancer product that supposedly has had some positive  lab results and woman seem to latch onto.

 

found the ad.

 

 

I called it sketchy because his customers all wanted their money back. Maybe his business is 100% legit and has high quality products with all of his customers were conning him. I don't know but PayPal didn't steal his money.

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Chewbacca

Chewbacca 7773

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Meh. I use it infrequently to transfer money to people but I've never had a problem with it.

I guess if I ran a decently sized business ($200K) under someone else's account and had many unhappy customers,  like in the linked story, I would think it was a shitty company too.

I've stayed away from it, but have friends who have had their funds seized and/or stolen for doing nothing shady.  They're just a shit company.  Not sure why you're defending them.

8 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

 I don't know but PayPal didn't steal his money.

You don't know, but you know PayPal didn't steal his money?  Lulz.

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13510

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Posted
1 minute ago, Chewbacca said:

I've stayed away from it, but have friends who have had their funds seized and/or stolen for doing nothing shady.  They're just a shit company.  Not sure why you're defending them.

You don't know, but you know PayPal didn't steal his money?  Lulz.

You have some anger issues about Paypal. 

I saw a comment that is 100% not accurate ("Paypal charges fees when sending money to friends") and I commented on it. Sorry if you don't like facts. And I was pointed to a story stating that PayPal was stealing account money. So I commented on it.

Quote

friends who have had their funds seized and/or stolen for doing nothing shady.

What do they sell? Who are their customers?  I assume you're going to reply that it's not your business so you won't say anything else. 

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Chewbacca

Chewbacca 7773

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19 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

You have some anger issues about Paypal. 

I saw a comment that is 100% not accurate ("Paypal charges fees when sending money to friends") and I commented on it. Sorry if you don't like facts. And I was pointed to a story stating that PayPal was stealing account money. So I commented on it.

What do they sell? Who are their customers?  I assume you're going to reply that it's not your business so you won't say anything else. 

They sold stuff on eBay here and there (like old cell phones, laptops, etc) - it wasn't a business, but selling stuff they didn't want anymore.  On more than one occasion, buyers would claim that they were shipped a box with something other than the item they paid for.  PayPal takes the $ out of seller's account and that's all she wrote.  No investigation, no discussion.  They won't use PayPal anymore. 

 

Like I said, it's a shit company.  Notice how you're the only one defending PayPal?  There's a reason for that.

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52-80

52-80 19150

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Posted
4 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Why can't a private business be allowed to make their own rules as long as they're not targeting protected groups? Paypal isn't a govt organization that has to remain neutral on subjects. 

What if surlyhorns is linked to your bank account and withdraws $2500 when they decide they dont like your post?


Their rule being “if you dont comply we’ll shut you out from our service” is one thing. Freezing peoples balances and/or fining $2500 — is the report is true — is a complete other animal. 

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bernorange

bernorange 8359

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If PayPal, in it's sole discretion, (perhaps aided by complaints from sourpuss Sooners), decided that Surlyhorns publishing comments such as "OU Sucks" promoted discrimination or intolerance, they could freeze Surly's PayPal acocunt and take $2,500 per violation.  Whether that is reasonable or plausible doesn't really matter.  PayPal gets to act in it's sole discretion.  Your opinion doesn't matter.  Surlyhorns agreed to their AUP.  That's PayPal's position.

Seizing an acocunt sounds pretty serious too.

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wildcat09

wildcat09 29349

Posted
Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, bernorange said:

If PayPal, in it's sole discretion, (perhaps aided by complaints from sourpuss Sooners), decided that Surlyhorns publishing comments such as "OU Sucks" promoted discrimination or intolerance, they could freeze Surly's PayPal acocunt and take $2,500 per violation.  Whether that is reasonable or plausible doesn't really matter.  PayPal gets to act in it's sole discretion.  Your opinion doesn't matter.  Surlyhorns agreed to their AUP.  That's PayPal's position.

Seizing an acocunt sounds pretty serious too.

What do you want to be done about this? Do you think it should be illegal? Do you think people should boycott?

Edited by wildcat09
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Celery Man

Celery Man 20934

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I don't care enough to actually look at this since I don't keep money in paypal and am not a heavy user but the elephant in the room is that the first link is from a right wing outrage machine, probably the INFRINGEMENT ON OUR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS has something to do with a private company deplatforming speech connected to overthrowing the government or such things, and fuckin elon musk and scott adams are trolls. I don't think that anyone is pro private companies confiscating people's money and refusing to make it right, but i suspect that these cases are at least 75% bullshit.   bernorange  - did you yourself aggragate the links in the OP and if not, where did you find them collected for you?

 

6 hours ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Today, shares of PayPal fell more than 6% (about $5 billion in market capitalization) after a blowback from the company’s botched acceptable use policy update. PayPal’s stock price has since climbed back up to a loss of 5.86% as of the time of writing.

https://techstartups.com/2022/10/10/paypal-loses-5-billion-market-value-misinformation-2500-debacle-thousands-paypal-users-canceled-accounts/

I'm not a smart market guy, I just put money in every month and hope it grows so tell me if I'm looking at this wrong

image.thumb.png.4a90657cd7f7cf12783638b3633e7ac6.png

i mean, that's a drop. seems maybe proportionally bigger than the overall movement. you know I said I don't care I'm going to make good on that promise

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bernorange

bernorange 8359

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17 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

What do you want to be done about this? Do you think it should be illegal? Do you think people shot boycott?

I'm not advocating for anything.  I'm sharing news.  This is Daily Texan.  I'm hoping that anyone who is doing business with PayPal learns about the issue.  You can decide for yourself whether or not these are reasonable terms for doing business.

17 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

I don't care enough to actually look at this since I don't keep money in paypal and am not a heavy user but the elephant in the room is that the first link is from a right wing outrage machine, probably the INFRINGEMENT ON OUR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS has something to do with a private company deplatforming speech connected to overthrowing the government or such things, and fuckin elon musk and scott adams are trolls. I don't think that anyone is pro private companies confiscating people's money and refusing to make it right, but i suspect that these cases are at least 75% bullshit.   bernorange  - did you yourself aggragate the links in the OP and if not, where did you find them collected for you?

I provided primary links wherever possible.  The story broke (1st link).  It went viral on social media.  I mentioned Elon and Scott because they have a lot of followers.  The point was that the story blew up, not that those specific people got outraged.  The story got so much attention that PayPal responded (backpedaled) (2nd link was primary source for retraction).  However, as Eugene Volokh pointed out, the brewhaha from the proposed changes that were retracted only served to highlight the problems with their existing policy.  I'm not aware of ARS Technica being a politically motivated website (and I know nothing about lawstreetmedia - just saw that page about the lawsuit), but the facts about the lawsuits against PayPal for stealing customer funds should be verifiable if you really think it's all BS.

Edited by bernorange
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elfenix

elfenix 34230

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Posted
2 hours ago, AUS-97HORN said:

god help me for the grief I am about to get for posting this.

but for whatever reason my brain is wired to actually watch AND listen to commercials. 

The ones I cant stand I mute.... that being said, over the last 2 years L'oreal has been showing an ad with Eva Longoria (I guess I pay attention to her) where she speaks in syllables about Hylauronic acid and its benefits.    Dont use it, dont give a shit... the only reason I remember it is because shes sounding out the fucking word.

 

that being said, if the guy was selling that Hyaluric shit its something the big beauty companies not only sell, but emphasize.   i.e. not entirely on the sketchy level.

Im not saying its not snake oil... but its a beauty enhancer product that supposedly has had some positive  lab results and woman seem to latch onto.

 

found the ad.

 

 

tangent: there's some ad for lip-plumping injections that was running during welcome to wrexham on hulu.  it does the usual fluff then gets to the warnings/side effects:

ad: don't take if you're allergic to the shit in this
me: ok.  stupid they have to say this but whatever.
ad: there's a risk of puffiness, swelling, discoloration
me: kinda expect that with an injection
ad: if they miss and hit a vein it may cause blindness or stroke
me: WTF?

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52-80

52-80 19150

Posted
Posted
45 minutes ago, bernorange said:

I'm not advocating for anything.  I'm sharing news.  This is Daily Texan.  I'm hoping that anyone who is doing business with PayPal learns about the issue.  You can decide for yourself whether or not these are reasonable terms for doing business.

I provided primary links wherever possible.  The story broke (1st link).  It went viral on social media.  I mentioned Elon and Scott because they have a lot of followers.  The point was that the story blew up, not that those specific people got outraged.  The story got so much attention that PayPal responded (backpedaled) (2nd link was primary source for retraction).  However, as Eugene Volokh pointed out, the brewhaha from the proposed changes that were retracted only served to highlight the problems with their existing policy.  I'm not aware of ARS Technica being a politically motivated website (and I know nothing about lawstreetmedia - just saw that page about the lawsuit), but the facts about the lawsuits against PayPal for stealing customer funds should be verifiable if you really think it's all BS.

the real elephant in the room is the tendency of people to immediate attack the source of the news rather than the content, even straight up admitting to not looking into it, despite being served up multiple other sources right on a platter. 

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Celery Man

Celery Man 20934

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, 52-80 said:

the real elephant in the room is the tendency of people to immediate attack the source of the news rather than the content, even straight up admitting to not looking into it, despite being served up multiple other sources right on a platter. 

the second link is, per Wikipedia “a far-right international multi-language newspaper and media company affiliated with the Falun Gong new religious movement.”

I would challenge the assertion that people are well served to ingest all content regardless of the source.

 

and he didn’t answer the question

Edited by Celery Man
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bernorange

bernorange 8359

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What question didn't I answer CM? I aggregated the links.  I took care to present the story using links from the primary source.  You would prefer secondary sources from sites that don't wrinkle your nose?  Maybe you should have found them and posted the thread then.  They were the sources that broke the story.  I took care not to politicize this thread.  You should do the same.

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Mikey4

Mikey4 2476

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35 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

the second link is, per Wikipedia “a far-right international multi-language newspaper and media company affiliated with the Falun Gong new religious movement.”

I would challenge the assertion that people are well served to ingest all content regardless of the source.

 

and he didn’t answer the question

You're close to CR'ing what is otherwise a good topic. We can all read the sources for ourselves, and PP's policy is what it is, regardless of who reports on it.

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RDCanecutter

RDCanecutter 26411

Posted
Posted

Paypal is so 2014.

I used to use it everyday, now it's an odd vestige. Crazy kids of today wanting to pay with any number of methods. Still, had one 20-something pay for something the other day with Paypal, I mean, sure, I want that money. But it was odd, as if she'd started speaking Chaucerian English.

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rage-a-holic

rage-a-holic 4382

Posted
Posted
18 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

Paypal is so 2014.

I used to use it everyday, now it's an odd vestige. Crazy kids of today wanting to pay with any number of methods. Still, had one 20-something pay for something the other day with Paypal, I mean, sure, I want that money. But it was odd, as if she'd started speaking Chaucerian English.

There are literally tons of sites/services that are nearly impossible to access or make purchases from without using Paypal, ebay for starters.

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