Conspiracy. HBO film regarding The Final Solution

[Augustus 3061]

This movie has been referenced on some other threads, but I wondered if anyone else found it interesting enough to discuss on its own thread.

I've seen this movie probably 10 times.  And I was just queuing it up to watch again, and was asking myself why I find it so compelling.

Aside from the terrific cast, who deliver outstanding performances, and very good script with first-rate dialogue, resulting in a short film that keeps you engrossed every moment, there is something (or perhaps a few things) that allow it to go much deeper than the vast majority of film works.  It's horrific enough on the surface, but I think it gets to the subconscious and rubs uncomfortably against a lot of stuff in there.

One of the things that's just unfathomable to me is how a group of people--who themselves are pretty diverse in terms of personality, temperament, etc, as some are arrogant, sadistic fucks while others are more thoughtful/reflective and clearly intelligent, along with some insecure-yet-ambitious middle management types--can so dispassionately and with zero compunction discuss a plan for the systematic murder of millions of people, and not only support it, but believe that others around the world will admire, or at least condone, this genocide, provided they go about it the right way, with a legal framework to ensure its legitimacy.

I think part of what disturbs me is the notion that a great many people, regardless of their political or religious ideology, are fully capable of de-humanizing the "other" to such an extent that grotesque cruelty to that group stirs no pangs of conscience.  I often find much more similarity/consistency among people who belong to groups that are ostensibly polar opposites in their belief systems, but in fact are much the same, with the exception of their policy/doctrinal disagreements, which are really much more surface-level than the deeper character traits that really make us who we are.  Two politicians may disagree vehemently on a hot-button issue, but their hunger for power is indistinguishable, for example.  The Israelis and Palestinians might seem divided by fundamental religious opposition, but the desire to possess a particular piece of land isn't unique to either.  And so on, ad infinitum.  

If you're unfamiliar with the film, the Wannsee Conference was a meeting among a bunch of Nazi higher-ups in which the plan and mechanisms for the "final solution" were brought by the SS to the wider awareness of the upper echelon of the Nazi machine.  Each attendee was supposed to study and then destroy his transcript of the meeting.  One did not, and it was discovered after the war.  What that transcript revealed was unimaginable.  The movie recreates that meeting, and does so to chilling effect.  It's easily, in my opinion, once of the best films ever made, and one of the most important.

So, I was genuinely curious as to your thoughts/impressions, because I know a lot of you have seen it.

 

 

[seven 1368]

I've seen it 4 or 5 times, it's very good and always on my recommendations that people may have missed. 

[tx 3 putt 77453]

it's a great movie 

[MissingInAction 25197]

Not to derail but the longer the war in Ukraike goes on the more I feel like all of Russia needs to be liquidated.

[atomheartbevo 89809]

36 minutes ago, MissingInAction said:

Not to derail but the longer the war in Ukraike goes on the more I feel like all of Russia needs to be liquidated.

 

It is uncanny when you watch this movie, and then kind of overlay it with Putin and his inner circle, as well as the official state spokespeople who are going on state TV.  Many of us joke about the movie Downfall, but this movie is honestly a lot more relevant in terms of what’s going on now

In particular to what August said below:

9 hours ago, Augustus said:

One of the things that's just unfathomable to me is how a group of people--who themselves are pretty diverse in terms of personality, temperament, etc, as some are arrogant, sadistic fucks while others are more thoughtful/reflective and clearly intelligent, along with some insecure-yet-ambitious middle management types--can so dispassionately and with zero compunction discuss a plan for the systematic murder of millions of people, and not only support it, but believe that others around the world will admire, or at least condone, this genocide, provided they go about it the right way, with a legal framework to ensure its legitimacy.

9 hours ago, Augustus said:

I think part of what disturbs me is the notion that a great many people, regardless of their political or religious ideology, are fully capable of de-humanizing the "other" to such an extent that grotesque cruelty to that group stirs no pangs of conscience. 

Here in 2022, we are watching this stuff play out publicly on Russian state TV and media, with Russian officials dehumanizing the “others”, whereas the Nazis were keeping the discussions out of sight.  Well, we didn’t see the internal Russian discussions on what exactly kicked everything off in February (what was promised or threatened to who to get them on board) and  we only saw the dog-and-pony show that was created for public consumption, but we have seen Russian officials dehumanizing them and calling for making them literally freeze this winter.

Sorry for adding to the detail, and I think Downfall is just an amazing movie, but I think Conspiracy gets way overlooked when people talk about comparisons of the 40s to what is now happening.  Conspiracy is far more chilling and relevant to 2022, but Downfall is more meme worthy (and Bruno Ganz was fucking amazing in Downfall).

TLDR: Downfall is amazing, Conspiracy is more relevant and chilling.

Edited October 18, 2022 by atomheartbevo

[SuckitKevin 920]

If this is the film with Kenneth Branagh, it is excellent.

[YGIFS 19452]

"But to annihilate them?  That we have undertaken to systematically annihilate all the Jews of Europe.  No, that possibility has personally been denied to me...by the Fuhrer!"  

"...(smiles) And it will continue to be."

Love that movie, probably watched it 20 times over the last 20 years.  The dialogue is so good, it's hard to remember it was almost all said verbatim in real life.  The men in that room, although highly educated, were not writers or orators, but spoke with such economy and eloquence.  

It's particularly poignant to watch it these days.  They were all in that room because they'd already proven to their superiors for years that they believed Jews and other ethnic minorities of Central/Eastern/Southern Europe were infiltrating German society and culture.  They had already long begun the legal framework with which to limit their involvement in Germany proper and the then the Greater Reich.  To "purge them" as Kritzinger puts it.  The attempts at mass deportation while still alive had been tried.  What we are seeing now around the table are the final steps of dehumanization so that the people handling the "liquidation" won't feel so bad about genocide.  Despite Dr. Stuckart's warnings about the errors in that line of thinking.  With very little fervor or specific commands, the meeting draws to a close in an almost anti-climactic fashion.  I suppose that's the idea.  And you see the soldiers head off to fight in one direction and the bureaucrats head off in another direction to setup the government apparatus to make the Final Solution a reality.  They have the cold calculations of military officers and party officials separating out responsibilities for a weapons system purchase or some other formulaic action.  Of course we know from Heydrich's side conversations (hard to tell how accurate those were with no stenographer), that he gains quite a bit of tacit buy-in from those hesitant by overtly threatening to bring them down, imprisoned, or worse.  

In the end, it wasn't the military that led the way on this.  It was government officials, party leadership, and bureaucrats.  Eichman, a glorified office clerk, did most of the heavy lifting.  All because the men he idolized-Hitler, Himmler, and Heydrich told him he was doing the Fatherland a favor by ridding it of these sub-humans who meant to subvert and upend Germany.  He even had the wild idea of using Jews to serve as camp guards, the "pulling up the rope behind them" theory, despite them being liquidated eventually, too.  Eerie to watch as of late.

 

[atomheartbevo 89809]

I will try to find it later, but one of the WWII history YouTubers did a really deep dive on Conspiracy, and laid out everything that happened to everybody who was portrayed in the movie, what they did, etc. - basically a deep dive on the fates mentioned in the movie, along with some newer information. Lot of speculation on Müller and if he truly escaped.  I need to find the video, because it was interesting

[TheStoicPaisano 9939]

My answer goes to the script…Firth, Branagh and Threlfall are excellent and versed in going through multiple pages in a single take. Tucci Mane held his own and look for the Hiddleston promo.

[YGIFS 19452]

It may have been you, but somebody put it up maybe on the old site...about 6-8 years ago?  It's hard to find because googling "conspiracy documentary" brings up a buncha shit to sift through that you don't wanna know is out there.  They did a short "where are they now" thing at the end of Conspiracy (some online versions cut it off before that starts.  But I remember that documentary going much more in depth.  Sadly, less than a handful stood trial after the War.  Most committed suicide, were KIA, or worse-disappeared without a trace.  

Now you got me down a rabbit hole.  But this business colleague we have in Argentina...his family assisted the Jew Hunters in the 50's and 60's since they knew the rural villages and also spoke German (weird combo, I know).  They tracked down Mueller to a farmhouse, never found him alive, but recovered uniforms, forged papers, and personal effects strongly indicating it was him.  Anyway, other local groups like theirs assisted finding Eichman.  I didn't know this until he sent me a link to them, but the 60's recordings of Eichman in interview...they were lost to time.  But they turned up again and were just released a few weeks ago.  The last known recordings of Eichman, I gotta go find that link.  It was bone chilling to hear no remorse in his voice after 20+ years...just the same old, "Just following orders to keep my country safe."  

[HouTex 1894]

It is a great film.  I found it interesting that a handful at the meeting were not so fired up at the mass murder of millions.  The one army guy got nauseous and had to leave the room.  The lawyer that wrote the Nuremberg laws was against the mass murder but was fine with sterilizations and state sponsored apartheid.  In the end, they all had to go along with Heydrich’s plan.  Heydrich got his due but it cost Lidice and Lezaky dearly.  And I still love the parable of the son whose parents die and how he cried over the one he hated, but not over the one he loved. 

[Augustus 3061]

1 hour ago, atomheartbevo said:

I will try to find it later, but one of the WWII history YouTubers did a really deep dive on Conspiracy, and laid out everything that happened to everybody who was portrayed in the movie, what they did, etc. - basically a deep dive on the fates mentioned in the movie, along with some newer information. Lot of speculation on Müller and if he truly escaped.  I need to find the video, because it was interesting

I hope you find it, I'd be very interested to watch.

[Parliament 14325]

It used to be free on YouTube and I watched it I don't know how many times.  The Lange character interested me in that he was somewhat idealistic and sympathetic.  So I googled him.  Seems the director had taken poetic license, and he was a shitbag like all the rest.  

The epilogue angered me when I saw how many of them got off.  But I'm glad that Heidrich...

Spoiler

Died a horrific death in Czechoslovakia.  Fuck that guy.

 

[Augustus 3061]

57 minutes ago, HouTex said:

It is a great film.  I found it interesting that a handful at the meeting were not so fired up at the mass murder of millions.  The one army guy got nauseous and had to leave the room.  The lawyer that wrote the Nuremberg laws was against the mass murder but was fine with sterilizations and state sponsored apartheid.  In the end, they all had to go along with Heydrich’s plan.  Heydrich got his due but it cost Lidice and Lezaky dearly.  And I still love the parable of the son whose parents die and how he cried over the one he hated, but not over the one he loved. 

 

There were two, Kritzinger and Lange, who seemed genuinely horrified but recognized there was no stopping the SS on this deal.  Although I thought Heydrich made a fair point noting some hypocrisy in Kritzinger's attitude:  make their lives a living hell, just don't kill them.  

Lange was portrayed a thoughtful/reflective, educated, basically nice guy.  

Otto Hoffman did get sick, but I think that had more to do with queasiness about corpses, period, than it did with murdering the Jews, even though he advocated for sterilization over genocide.  

Some of the bio's at the end were just bizarre.  Klopfinger energetically supports the murder of millions, then works as a tax advisor until his death over 40 years later.  It stated one of them was "active in an American cultural institution."  Twilight Zone stuff.

[Augustus 3061]

7 minutes ago, Parliament said:

It used to be free on YouTube and I watched it I don't know how many times.  The Lange character interested me in that he was somewhat idealistic and sympathetic.  So I googled him.  Seems the director had taken poetic license, and he was a shitbag like all the rest.  

The epilogue angered me when I saw how many of them got off.  But I'm glad that Heidrich...

  Hide contents

Died a horrific death in Czechoslovakia.  Fuck that guy.

 

 

Not surprised, I guess, though disappointed (about Lange).

I figured it was possible they softened his character to give the audience a perspective inside the room.

[YGIFS 19452]

Major Lange is artistic license.  According to the source material, more time was spent discussing the negative aspects of having the military just shoot civilians en masse.  It then dovetails into a discussion on other than some camp guards and transportation line security, the executions should not be the business of the military.  Rather local conscripts and sonderkommand.  Major Lange is an amalgam of that portion of the discussion and his exchange with Heydrich was intended to summarize all that up real quick and with some modicum of humanity.  

Perhaps the one who is most "absolved" in real life is Leibbrandt.  The soft spoken bald guy with the rosy cheeks.  He quit his Ministry and its efforts in the Holocaust and joined the Navy for the last two years of the war.  His case at Nuremberg was dismissed rather quickly, he lived into the 1980's as an academic, publishing mostly on anti-Communist/anti-Russian efforts.  His son still carries his name with little to no public backlash in germany or israel.  

After Heydrich's assassination, Muller became the real cold-blooded fuckstick of them all.  And Eichmann treated it like he was project manager.  It was Eichmann's cold methodology as Final Solution as Business Enterprise that was likely the reason it was so widespread and effective.  

Stuckart was eventually de-nazified and lived out his days in government/legal work.  Kritzinger died while awaiting sentencing.  A good number were tried and executed, but a disturbing number had time to flee and/or commit suicide.  

Martin Luther is intended to appear as the smarmiest, most weasel-like of the bunch.  Because of these attributes in real life, he snuck his minutes of the meeting out with him while people were busy networking.  His paranoia that he may need them one day to blackmail or avoid political/legal trouble is why we know what we now know about the Conference and the Final Solution.  Sadly, his notes also provide ammo to this day to Holocaust deniers that the entire 6 million can be explained away as having been resettled under Luther's direction.  

Edited October 18, 2022 by YGIFS

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

1 hour ago, YGIFS said:

 It's hard to find because googling "conspiracy documentary" brings up a buncha shit to sift through that you don't wanna know is out there. 

If you are looking on YouTube specifically, good luck. I loathe their excuse of a search engine.

I have had the occasional luck on searches for YouTube product specifically by using Google and their quote feature along with the boolean AND feature. I don't like Google, but DuckDuckGo has search issues as well.

I don't know if this is the one you seek in which case you might need to try other search terms, but I retrieved it doing just that. It looks to be an almost hour long video.

 

[YGIFS 19452]

That's the one I was referring to, and thanks for taking an hour of my day away   (I'll watch it tonight).  The other one was more "documentary" style, not podcast style.  

There's also another live-action narrative version of the Wannssee Conference simply called "Wannssee-The Final solution"  It uses almost exclusively German actors speaking in German.  Subtitled of course.  It's shorter and compacts the minutes of the meeting even more than Conspiracy.  It's from the 80's.  In my opinion though, while I respect the rigid way they produced it, it is too stiff.  Also, the entire cast sits and speaks in very authoritative tones (even moreso than usual German).  Conspiracy being in English, allows for more tensions to be dropped and audience put at an eerie ease.  

something else you'll notice, it's very dim in the room at "Wannsee-The Final solution", giving it an ominous vibe apart from the dialogue.  In "Conspiracy", they are in a huge, open room with high ceilings and tons of natural light flowing in from three sides.  A curious juxtiposition from the sinister work they are doing.  

With both movies, there is an overarching question that the audience and certain attendees want answered more than all, but it never comes.  The meeting just ends its plenary session, some brief networking, and everybody is on their way back to work/home, like the end of just another business conference we've all attended hundreds of.  But it's never posited, "If what we're doing is the right thing and it's inevitable, why does nobody know we're here and why no records?  Why all the secrecy?"  Tell me you know this is wrong and we'll hang for it one day without telling me you know this is wrong and we'll hang for it one day.  

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11669]

3 hours ago, SuckitKevin said:

If this is the film with Kenneth Branagh, it is excellent.

he's the best part of it.  

 

i remember reading somewhere that it wasn't really a monumentous meeting that moved the way of the world in any surprising direction.  it was more a logistical thing that everyone already understood.  but because we found the notes to it, it has acquired greater significance now.

[HouTex 1894]

6 minutes ago, BehoId, The Underminer! said:

he's the best part of it.  

 

i remember reading somewhere that it wasn't really a monumentous meeting that moved the way of the world in any surprising direction.  it was more a logistical thing that everyone already understood.  but because we found the notes to it, it has acquired greater significance now.

The decision was made before the meeting.  The meeting was pretty much all about the logistics of carrying out the final solution.  Much of the discussion was how to get the bureaucrats to coordinate their departments to achieve the extermination of all Jews in Europe and then how to get rid of the bodies.  They discussed the method of execution (gas) and the method of disposal (industrial furnaces).  The film shows, among other things, that it's no small feat to murder and dispose of that many bodies.    

[Zepol87 9191]

Never seen it, thanks for the thread it is now added to the list to watch. 

 

[seven 1368]

Slightly inappropriate but I always get a good laugh at the borman representative (I don't know the name) getting annoyed at the office of the five year plan guy and introduces himself as blah blah, assistant to borman of the THOUSAND year plan. 

[YGIFS 19452]

Oh well, perhaps you have some special love for him?  

[Parliament 14325]

And also the, "I'll remember you...", "Good, because I'm very well known," exchange. 

[SimonBolivar 10960]

2 hours ago, Zepol87 said:

Never seen it, thanks for the thread it is now added to the list to watch. 

 

[bschoolprof 6273]

Thanks OP for starting this thread.  I've only seen it once, but I'm not the type that watches movies over and over.  I downloaded it for a flight years ago and it still sticks with me - it's amazing how a movie that was basically a meeting at a villa could be so riveting.  It's reminiscent to me of margin call in that aspect.  The acting, direction, and script are just top notch.  

[Augustus 3061]

2 hours ago, bschoolprof said:

Thanks OP for starting this thread.  I've only seen it once, but I'm not the type that watches movies over and over.  I downloaded it for a flight years ago and it still sticks with me - it's amazing how a movie that was basically a meeting at a villa could be so riveting.  It's reminiscent to me of margin call in that aspect.  The acting, direction, and script are just top notch.  

That's actually a damn good comparison.

[Augustus 3061]

 

Man, I greatly appreciate all of your comments and insights.

I'm not surprised that all of you had similar reactions to mine, but it's fun to discuss and share that.

[Augustus 3061]

8 hours ago, HouTex said:

The decision was made before the meeting.  The meeting was pretty much all about the logistics of carrying out the final solution.  Much of the discussion was how to get the bureaucrats to coordinate their departments to achieve the extermination of all Jews in Europe and then how to get rid of the bodies.  They discussed the method of execution (gas) and the method of disposal (industrial furnaces).  The film shows, among other things, that it's no small feat to murder and dispose of that many bodies.    

 

It was definitely about the means by which they'd make it happen, but it was just as much about letting everyone know, "Look, I know a lot of you think this question has been settled, and/or you believe your department has some authority in this arena, but as Muller said, 'There's a new directive,' and the SS is now running this show, so fall in line or wear piano wire for a neck tie."

[Augustus 3061]

8 hours ago, BehoId, The Underminer! said:

he's the best part of it.  

 

True of any film he's in.  What he can do with dialogue is astounding.  He can breeze through pages of a script without missing a beat or getting a single inflection the slightest bit off.

If you really want to be amazed, and I'm talking "No fucking way" amazed, watch his movie Hamlet.  It's just impossible to me that any actor could take *that* dialogue, in such an insane quantity, commit it to memory, and the deliver it in such an effortless, perfectly natural manner.  It's the most impressive thing I've ever seen on film.

[Augustus 3061]

This is a relatively minor example.

 

[atomheartbevo 89809]

2 minutes ago, Augustus said:

True of any film he's in.  What he can do with dialogue is astounding.  He can breeze through pages of a script without missing a beat or getting a single inflection the slightest bit off.

If you really want to be amazed, and I'm talking "No fucking way" amazed, watch his movie Hamlet.  It's just impossible to me that any actor could take *that* dialogue, in such an insane quantity, commit it to memory, and the deliver it in such an effortless, perfectly natural manner.  It's the most impressive thing I've ever seen on film.

Kenneth Branagh is kind of like England's Gary Oldman.

[atomheartbevo 89809]

[Parliament 14325]

Speaking of which, why does the UK turn out so much acting talent?  All that Shakespeare?

[Eskimohorn 5642]

Speaking of which, why does the UK turn out so much acting talent?  All that Shakespeare?

Would that it were so simple.

[Zepol87 9191]

5 hours ago, seven said:

Slightly inappropriate but I always get a good laugh at the borman representative (I don't know the name) getting annoyed at the office of the five year plan guy and introduces himself as blah blah, assistant to borman of the THOUSAND year plan. 

I started it earlier but the dog and work ruined it but I made it to this part. I laughed as well

Edited October 19, 2022 by Zepol87

[YGIFS 19452]

That guy oddly provides the only comic relief in the film.  The five year plan, the part where he asks all the lawyers To raise their hands and he gasps, “my god, it’s worse than I thought”, and one more.  I’ll wait and see if y’all found it funny or if it was just me.  

[tx 3 putt 77453]

3 hours ago, Parliament said:

Speaking of which, why does the UK turn out so much acting talent?  All that Shakespeare?

[bullzak 422]

Branagh is just stellar in this film as he is in everything. I have watched it a couple of times and it is so chilling to see them discussing the entire process like they are building pickup trucks. Hard to believe all of this was such recent history. 

I would guess most of the actors had a lot of stage training because there were some long complicated dialogue scenes. I dont recall a lot of scene cutting but I need to see it again. 

[YGIFS 19452]

1 hour ago, bullzak said:

Branagh is just stellar in this film as he is in everything. I have watched it a couple of times and it is so chilling to see them discussing the entire process like they are building pickup trucks. Hard to believe all of this was such recent history. 

I would guess most of the actors had a lot of stage training because there were some long complicated dialogue scenes. I dont recall a lot of scene cutting but I need to see it again. 

Good observation.  I went down that rabbit hole about 15 years ago into each actor's background and the majority were classically trained theater actors.  Then found a trade publication around that time, an interview with the director of photography.  Most, almost all, of the long dialogue takes were done in one long continuous take.  It's really only when somebody gets up, they take a snack break, or hold their little side conversations did they stop rolling.  But he said camera placement and blocking were extremely difficult as that set room wasn't as big as it looks (as is usually the case).  You can't just cut across the table to the next guy talking if he's staring straight into the camera from the last cutaway.  Anyway, he obviously did a better job explaining it than I am now.  But point is, there were some 10 minute long takes between a half dozen actors that were done seamlessly with no cutting or posting (aside from cleaning up audio but that's standard).  

The best shot though from just a cinematography standpoint is that quick hit Heydrich does around the table and we get the camera shot from both our vantage point as outsiders overlooking the table, and from Heydrich's chair...until it swoops around to Eichmann and he gives that nod that the conversation, and the circle...are complete.  

[SimonBolivar 10960]

The movie would've been better with Derek Jacobi playing John McClane taking out the Nazis.

[Augustus 3061]

Each of the actors did a terrific job, some truly exceptional.

I thought Brendan Coyle was really good as Heinrich Müller.

It was weird watching him as this cold blooded Gestapo chief, after watching him play Mr. Bates on Downton Abbey.

David Threlfall as Dr. Kritzinger gave a really moving performance, and Barnaby Kay really stood out as Major Lange--though as discussed above he was really fictionalized.

Ian McNiece was so effective as Klopfer that I absolutely hated that fat fuck.  But his back-and-forth with Stuckart had some great tension, and of course Colin Firth knocked it out of the park as Stuckart, no surprise there.

 

In any situation, you have to work with whatever you're given, so I'm a little surprised I'm the first to mention the "pretty little maid."  I think she had one word of dialogue, I think it was "Sir" in response to Eichmann telling her to smile, but she absolutely looked the part and I felt like she knew she had a job to do, and did it well, but didn't care for the Nazis and ultimately only looked happy when the day was over and she hopped on the bicycle with her boyfriend--no doubt like millions of Germans who were just trying to get through their lives day to day with the Nazi insanity going on all around them.

But, yeah, I'd absolutely bang her and I bet she's pretty talented in the sack.

 

[Augustus 3061]

These days, whenever I watch the movie and they're going around the table making their introductions, when they get to Owen Teale I want him to Say, "Alliser Thorne, First Ranger at Castle Black, Night's Watch."

[Augustus 3061]

Last word on the cast.  Otto Hofmann was played by Nicholas Woodeson, who was just outstanding in his role as Posca in the HBO series Rome.  Posca was a slave to Julius Caesar, freed in Caesar's will, then employed by Mark Antony until he fled Egypt to serve Octavian.

He had a few moments throughout the series of comic relief.  Before the Battle of Pharsalus Posca observes that Pompey's forces outnumber Caesar's significantly, to which Caesar replies that Pompey's numerical advantage is what gives Caesar's army the advantage.

Posca replies, "I wasn't aware that irony had a military application."

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

13 hours ago, Eskimohorn said:

Would that it were so simple.

On so many levels and so much more rep needed for this phrase ^^^^

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11669]

2 hours ago, Augustus said:

Last word on the cast.

we'll see

[UpperWestside 6190]

I remember watching this. It’s hard to fully grasp the depravity of man that meetings like this could happen and for the participants to be so stoic about killing millions of people. 
 

I have watched so much stuff about World War II because my dad’s family is German. I would have loved to have been able to ask my Oma questions about what it was like growing up in nazi Germany under people like this. She died from cancer when I was 10 so I will never know what bits and pieces her and her family would have known about what was happening to the Jews. The best lesson we can learn from films like this is to never allow these circumstances to happen again.

[Parliament 14325]

That and America needs a strong pimp hand for when Europe tries to destroy itself.

[Augustus 3061]

1 hour ago, Parliament said:

That and America needs a strong pimp hand for when Europe tries to destroy itself.

It's just in their DNA.

Jimmy Walker (JJ of Good Times fame) offered an observation on the Troubles in Northern Ireland, relating to the fact that the opponents were Catholic vs Protestant.  He quipped, "It just goes to show you that without any Blacks, Mexicans or Jews, white people can improvise."

Europeans wouldn't know what to do with themselves if they weren't falling in line behind monarchical leaders and waging war with each other.

Rome managed to get most of them to sit down and shut up for a few centuries (except for the pesky Germanic tribes that eventually flooded into an overwhelmed the Western Empire and established themselves as ruling class in many future European states), but once that came to end it was back to business as usual.  

I wonder how many are aware that the war-less period since WWII is the longest sustained period of peace in Europe since before Rome "pacified" it.