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Mom kills 5-year old girl in Tomball

Pancho

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YGIFS

YGIFS 19452

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What a heartbreaking story with which to start the day with as I get my 3.5yo dressed for school picture day.

Imma go out on a limb and assume she other had no real serious criminal history, but showed several signs of mental illness.  And what the fuck, just read the part about she did this at a kid's playground?  She just happened to have sharp objects and a plastic bag on her person?  Sounds premeditated.   

Not saying it's direct causation, but there is absolutely correlation between frequent tragedies like this in Texas and the fact that every, single fucking year-we are in the bottom quintile for spending on mental health care.  She also had skirmishes with CPS before, but that department is run about effectively as the IRS . Blows we away that CPS has mental health professionals and counselors for the kids, as well they should.  But no resources at all for parents...the ones, you know...who can go crazy and actually hurt the vulnerable kids.  Wonderful system we have here my fellow Texans.  Thoughts and prayers and let's move on. 

I know, I know...there's just evil in the world, we can't stop it.  Except for a $75/hour clinical evaluation, but ain't nobody got time for that! 

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SydneyCarton

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23 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

What a heartbreaking story with which to start the day with as I get my 3.5yo dressed for school picture day.

Imma go out on a limb and assume she other had no real serious criminal history, but showed several signs of mental illness.  And what the fuck, just read the part about she did this at a kid's playground?  She just happened to have sharp objects and a plastic bag on her person?  Sounds premeditated.   

Not saying it's direct causation, but there is absolutely correlation between frequent tragedies like this in Texas and the fact that every, single fucking year-we are in the bottom quintile for spending on mental health care.  She also had skirmishes with CPS before, but that department is run about effectively as the IRS . Blows we away that CPS has mental health professionals and counselors for the kids, as well they should.  But no resources at all for parents...the ones, you know...who can go crazy and actually hurt the vulnerable kids.  Wonderful system we have here my fellow Texans.  Thoughts and prayers and let's move on. 

I know, I know...there's just evil in the world, we can't stop it.  Except for a $75/hour clinical evaluation, but ain't nobody got time for that! 

you think? The mom didn't have custody, authorities are still trying to figure out how she got ahold of the kiddo. The mom had to seek the child out. Safe to say that, along with her "Kid was evil and I didn't want her any more" is a solid case for pre-meditation. 

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4 hours ago, BabaYaga said:

The greatest privilege on this planet is being born to good, caring, responsible parents.  Poor thing, never had a chance

Yes. Which apparently too many of us take for granted.  Sick that I clicked on this thread. 

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39 minutes ago, jdhorn92 said:

Hopefully she gets death penalty 

This is the kind of case where I’d advocate frontier justice. Quick shot to the head. No fanfare, no publicity. Just vanished. 

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TwiceHorn

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Horrible.

On the one hand, I think mental illness should more easily provide a defense to crimes.  Not a scot-free defense, but one where the sentence is mandatory treatment and confinement contingent on sustained improvement.  In other words, not a conventional prison, but something more like Hinckley.

On the other hand, this person needs to be removed from society one way or the other.  I still think I prefer life over death penalty, though.  Incarceration of the grossly mentally ill seems like cruel and unusual punishment given likely abuse by other inmates and lack of treatment.

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SydneyCarton

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9 minutes ago, 83Horn said:

Dammit.  My Catholic upbringing taught me that I should never hope anyone goes to hell, but I'm kind of hoping that little girl's mom rots in hell for eternity after she's executed.

It's ok. Your catholic upbringing also taught you that inevitably some (many) will go to hell. I mean it may as well be her. 

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1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Horrible.

On the one hand, I think mental illness should more easily provide a defense to crimes.  Not a scot-free defense, but one where the sentence is mandatory treatment and confinement contingent on sustained improvement.  In other words, not a conventional prison, but something more like Hinckley.

On the other hand, this person needs to be removed from society one way or the other.  I still think I prefer life over death penalty, though.  Incarceration of the grossly mentally ill seems like cruel and unusual punishment given likely abuse by other inmates and lack of treatment.

I just disagree.  When you’ve committed an act that heinous, you don’t deserve to have an opportunity to have your mental health worked on at significant cost to taxpayers. You have lost that privilege. You deserve only an expedited death. 

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105154

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2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Horrible.

On the one hand, I think mental illness should more easily provide a defense to crimes.  Not a scot-free defense, but one where the sentence is mandatory treatment and confinement contingent on sustained improvement.  In other words, not a conventional prison, but something more like Hinckley.

On the other hand, this person needs to be removed from society one way or the other.  I still think I prefer life over death penalty, though.  Incarceration of the grossly mentally ill seems like cruel and unusual punishment given likely abuse by other inmates and lack of treatment.

 

1 hour ago, 'stache said:

White lady, ergo "mental health" and no death penalty. The opposite and the injection would be next week.

Cases like these, I end up mostly where Twice is in his post.  And I say that as a parent who finds events like this simply beyond my ability to even conceive of.

Maybe the mom is just a plain old piece of shit, and deserves everything the law can throw at her.  But based on how it went down, it seems pretty likely that she is not sane.  And I believe that standard should be applied across the board.

I don't suggest it because I have any soft spot in my heart for the murdering mom, or I don't think we should be tough on crime.  I think that people like this should never see the light of day again, because no matter what, they are too great a risk to society.  But I also cannot attribute a full culpable mental state to her, if she indeed is insane.

If I have a mental illness that gives me real-deal visions, and I turn around and see my child as a wolf with its fangs bared, lunging at me, and I react as one would to a lunging wolf -- I stab it with the knife I am presently using in the kitchen -- I do not have the culpable mental state of murdering a person.  To me, I just defended myself from an attacking wolf.  I believe that as surely as you believe that you are reading this on Surly, the earth is round, etc.  That doesn't mean that I shouldn't face consequences, or that I shouldn't be removed from society because I'm a threat.  But it does mean that I am not an evil criminal.  I am, instead, so insane that I am a danger to society.

Insanity isn't, and shouldn't be, a blanket excuse to ANY act.  But likewise, if it really was in play, it cannot be ignored, either.  There's no easy answer.  But I think our one-two approach of 1) functionally zero mental healthcare apparatus, and 2) an "insanity defense" process that is very unavailable and even when it is, doesn't necessarily strike the right balance to preserve public safety, is NOT the answer.

Here, it looks like we have a woman who may indeed be batshit insane (and likely has been for a while, based on the record cited), and a dead child.  What a shitty case.

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Mrs Whiggins

Mrs Whiggins 13050

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2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Horrible.

On the one hand, I think mental illness should more easily provide a defense to crimes.  Not a scot-free defense, but one where the sentence is mandatory treatment and confinement contingent on sustained improvement.  In other words, not a conventional prison, but something more like Hinckley.

On the other hand, this person needs to be removed from society one way or the other.  I still think I prefer life over death penalty, though.  Incarceration of the grossly mentally ill seems like cruel and unusual punishment given likely abuse by other inmates and lack of treatment.

Between your comments and @YGIFS this is about where I am. This was heinous and awful, but his point regarding our mental health care is on point. The article mentioned this woman had multiple children, including a two year old and some folks don't think or know about this, but people with mental health issues often have a longer lasting post partum depression, one that can last for several years. The medical pros can weigh in on this, but I think the Pediatric docs recommended screening new mothers longer than they used to, obviously not two years, but the majority of mothers do not suffer as long as that and this woman seems to have a whole lot of other disorders. Perhaps that had nothing to do with her actions or her mental state, but we should be relieved that given our poor access to mental health care here, events like this are rare.

I remember being devastated when I learned about Andrea Yates and her children. It was heartbreaking-those poor poor children. Mentally ill and suffering from PPD, she was permitted to live and receive treatment (such as it is) in an appropriate facility.

Prevention through mental and physical healthcare is the optimal outcome, but good luck with that.

 

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31495

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5 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Between your comments and @YGIFS this is about where I am. This was heinous and awful, but his point regarding our mental health care is on point. The article mentioned this woman had multiple children, including a two year old and some folks don't think or know about this, but people with mental health issues often have a longer lasting post partum depression, one that can last for several years. The medical pros can weigh in on this, but I think the Pediatric docs recommended screening new mothers longer than they used to, obviously not two years, but the majority of mothers do not suffer as long as that and this woman seems to have a whole lot of other disorders. Perhaps that had nothing to do with her actions or her mental state, but we should be relieved that given our poor access to mental health care here, events like this are rare.

I remember being devastated when I learned about Andrea Yates and her children. It was heartbreaking-those poor poor children. Mentally ill and suffering from PPD, she was permitted to live and receive treatment (such as it is) in an appropriate facility.

Prevention through mental and physical healthcare is the optimal outcome, but good luck with that.

 

Yep a corollary to all this would be a functioning mental health system, where the facilities that treat and confine mentally ill offenders would also provide community care for less-serious and non-offenders.  Every county has a jail, and many have a prison.  Make part of each of those a mental health facility and we have struck a blow.

With that, we could probably cut down sufficiently on incarceration numbers, and recidivism due to untreated mental health sufficiently to actually maybe pay for it and work a much greater societal benefit than just locking people up and creating functional wards of the state.

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Samson's Wig

Samson's Wig 3192

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8 hours ago, YGIFS said:

What a heartbreaking story with which to start the day with as I get my 3.5yo dressed for school picture day.

Imma go out on a limb and assume she other had no real serious criminal history, but showed several signs of mental illness.  And what the fuck, just read the part about she did this at a kid's playground?  She just happened to have sharp objects and a plastic bag on her person?  Sounds premeditated.   

Not saying it's direct causation, but there is absolutely correlation between frequent tragedies like this in Texas and the fact that every, single fucking year-we are in the bottom quintile for spending on mental health care.  She also had skirmishes with CPS before, but that department is run about effectively as the IRS . Blows we away that CPS has mental health professionals and counselors for the kids, as well they should.  But no resources at all for parents...the ones, you know...who can go crazy and actually hurt the vulnerable kids.  Wonderful system we have here my fellow Texans.  Thoughts and prayers and let's move on. 

I know, I know...there's just evil in the world, we can't stop it.  Except for a $75/hour clinical evaluation, but ain't nobody got time for that! 

Shit mental health resources.  Shit education system.  Abysmal healthcare for women.  Texas.   

I sometimes try to remind myself why I'm still here, and I often land on taxes.  Unfortunately, that's a bunch of shit too as we're not actually that great for overall tax burden (18th maybe?).  Living in Austin will drop you into the bottom half of the country quickly.  Then I think, well at least real estate is affordable.  Not anymore.  Maybe it's the weather?  That must be it.  Fuck me.  That's not it.   Oh yeah, I remember now.  I feel stuck because my kids are settled in here and I don't want to uproot them.

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On 10/18/2022 at 3:09 PM, Porterhouse said:

I just disagree.  When you’ve committed an act that heinous, you don’t deserve to have an opportunity to have your mental health worked on at significant cost to taxpayers. You have lost that privilege. You deserve only an expedited death. 

So at dinner last night, my otherwise sweet wife got into a heated argument about meting out punishment. It wasn’t about this specific case, as I quickly put this out of my mind because it’s a terrible story. It was actually started about the Memphis mom jogger who was kidnapped, raped and killed. I told her my plan above and expanded on it: have an expedited trial (within 1-2 weeks), if found guilty (and in these cases guilt should be 100%), offer a priest or pastor if they want one, and have some third party LEO shoot them in the head in an undisclosed location. Family members aren’t involved. Removal of evil swiftly from society. No media coverage permitted. Vanished. Victims’ immediate family can watch a video or see evidence of the person’s death. 

Now, I firmly believe what I typed above. It’s a contravention to what Christ wanted, and I don’t care. I am adamant that our shift from barbarism from the Middle Ages to as recently as the 1900s has gone WAY too far in the other direction. I know many here will disagree with me.

The wife argument came not from my barbaric proposal that offends many sensibilities here, but her need to torture people that hurt her loved ones. A very human reaction - revenge. I get it, but pressed on. No, the law should specifically outlaw any torture committed on that person and protect them for that 1-2 week period. And, you shouldn’t make it about YOUR pain. You should be solely focused on ridding the world of an evil. Torture is wasting one more thought / minute on an evil individual. They are not worth your time, and torture will not make you feel better. She would not be swayed. I told her I was disgusted by her, drank 14 margaritas, and got zero pussy last night. 

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Nivek

Nivek 16944

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On 10/18/2022 at 8:28 AM, YGIFS said:

What a heartbreaking story with which to start the day with as I get my 3.5yo dressed for school picture day.

Imma go out on a limb and assume she other had no real serious criminal history, but showed several signs of mental illness.  And what the fuck, just read the part about she did this at a kid's playground?  She just happened to have sharp objects and a plastic bag on her person?  Sounds premeditated.   

Not saying it's direct causation, but there is absolutely correlation between frequent tragedies like this in Texas and the fact that every, single fucking year-we are in the bottom quintile for spending on mental health care.  She also had skirmishes with CPS before, but that department is run about effectively as the IRS . Blows we away that CPS has mental health professionals and counselors for the kids, as well they should.  But no resources at all for parents...the ones, you know...who can go crazy and actually hurt the vulnerable kids.  Wonderful system we have here my fellow Texans.  Thoughts and prayers and let's move on. 

I know, I know...there's just evil in the world, we can't stop it.  Except for a $75/hour clinical evaluation, but ain't nobody got time for that! 

Because we need to spend money on walls and election fraud and kidnapping illegal immigrants.   Solving problems is not how elections are won here.

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Nivek

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36 minutes ago, Porterhouse said:

So at dinner last night, my otherwise sweet wife got into a heated argument about meting out punishment. It wasn’t about this specific case, as I quickly put this out of my mind because it’s a terrible story. It was actually started about the Memphis mom jogger who was kidnapped, raped and killed. I told her my plan above and expanded on it: have an expedited trial (within 1-2 weeks), if found guilty (and in these cases guilt should be 100%), offer a priest or pastor if they want one, and have some third party LEO shoot them in the head in an undisclosed location. Family members aren’t involved. Removal of evil swiftly from society. No media coverage permitted. Vanished. Victims’ immediate family can watch a video or see evidence of the person’s death. 

Now, I firmly believe what I typed above. It’s a contravention to what Christ wanted, and I don’t care. I am adamant that our shift from barbarism from the Middle Ages to as recently as the 1900s has gone WAY too far in the other direction. I know many here will disagree with me.

The wife argument came not from my barbaric proposal that offends many sensibilities here, but her need to torture people that hurt her loved ones. A very human reaction - revenge. I get it, but pressed on. No, the law should specifically outlaw any torture committed on that person and protect them for that 1-2 week period. And, you shouldn’t make it about YOUR pain. You should be solely focused on ridding the world of an evil. Torture is wasting one more thought / minute on an evil individual. They are not worth your time, and torture will not make you feel better. She would not be swayed. I told her I was disgusted by her, drank 14 margaritas, and got zero pussy last night. 

Don't reproduce.  

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Nicole44

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I often have wondered in these cases (yes plural because every couple of months you see a similar story) how many of these individuals have been diagnosed and were prescribed medication and stopped taking it (whether it as because of the way they feel/lack of resources etc…) the Andrea Yates case happened when I first moved to Houston and a person I grew up with worked with her husband at the time. We all know what happened there. Just a terrible story. All the way around. 

my point is if someone has violent tendencies and has a diagnosis and refuses to take medication (not saying it is the case here but we’ve all seen too many stories like this) what is the recourse? Force them to take meds or force them to live in an institution? How far does it go to keep other people safe? Even in a perfect world with access to mental health professionals etc how far does it go? If someone can do this kind of act when they aren’t medicated…

im not trying to seem unfeeling but holy crap…I don’t have any answers but surely something needs to happen so little kids or innocent victims aren’t butchered…my heart does go out to those who are mentally ill but also their family members who in many cases have done everything they can think of to try and help their loved ones. And it’s not enough. Just sucks. 

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Nivek

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6 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

An martial argument about the righteousness of putting humans to death vs. the torture of humans.

I’m glad you two psychos found each other and won’t be inflicting your crazy on regular people.

Kids' these days, am I right?  Always disrespecting their parents who are talking like Russian state tv hosts.

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Nivek

Nivek 16944

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3 minutes ago, Nicole44 said:

I often have wondered in these cases (yes plural because every couple of months you see a similar story) how many of these individuals have been diagnosed and were prescribed medication and stopped taking it (whether it as because of the way they feel/lack of resources etc…) the Andrea Yates case happened when I first moved to Houston and a person I grew up with worked with her husband at the time. We all know what happened there. Just a terrible story. All the way around. 

my point is if someone has violent tendencies and has a diagnosis and refuses to take medication (not saying it is the case here but we’ve all seen too many stories like this) what is the recourse? Force them to take meds or force them to live in an institution? How far does it go to keep other people safe? Even in a perfect world with access to mental health professionals etc how far does it go? If someone can do this kind of act when they aren’t medicated…

im not trying to seem unfeeling but holy crap…I don’t have any answers but surely something needs to happen so little kids or innocent victims aren’t butchered…my heart does go out to those who are mentally ill but also their family members who in many cases have done everything they can think of to try and help their loved ones. And it’s not enough. Just sucks. 

As a country/state we don't even give a flying fuck if 19 kids and their teachers are murdered in one instance.   We send platitudes and move on and re-elect the people who brought us these events.  

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7 hours ago, Bama Chick said:

An martial argument about the righteousness of putting humans to death vs. the torture of humans.

I’m glad you two psychos found each other and won’t be inflicting your crazy on regular people.

She couldn’t get past this happening to one of her own babies; she’s anything but a psycho.  Very much a regular person and one you would like despite your politics. And I’m not talking about putting humans to death. I’m talking about subhumans.  I know this view is extreme. But modern society’s treatment of serial killers, baby killers and generally really evil people, is laughably and insanely ineffective and encourages repeat behaviors, and we’ve been lulled to sleep by criminal justice systems that any defense attorney worth his or her salt can manipulate to society’s detriment. 

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6 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

Anyone with a functioning brain should be able to understand that there's actually no way to establish a system where there's a separate type of penalty for people for whom guilt has been 100% determined. Anyone who thinks that can be done is mentally a child.

100% false. 

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Serak The Preparer

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13 hours ago, Porterhouse said:

But modern society’s treatment of serial killers, baby killers and generally really evil people, is laughably and insanely ineffective and encourages repeat behaviors, and we’ve been lulled to sleep by criminal justice systems that any defense attorney worth his or her salt can manipulate to society’s detriment. 

You're going to have show your work for you conclusion that our treatment of baby killers and serial killers (setting aside "generally really evil people" since that's unclear) encourages repeat behavior. Are serial killings on the rise? What about baby killings? Is there more repeat behavior? Is it traceable to our treatment? Or are you just spouting a hypothesis with no evidence and treating it as fact?

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29 minutes ago, Serak The Preparer said:

You're going to have show your work for you conclusion that our treatment of baby killers and serial killers (setting aside "generally really evil people" since that's unclear) encourages repeat behavior. Are serial killings on the rise? What about baby killings? Is there more repeat behavior? Is it traceable to our treatment? Or are you just spouting a hypothesis with no evidence and treating it as fact?

Hard to conclude that, but I suspect strong evidence exists that because we (media and it’s viewers, so truly the collective we) sensationalize serial killers and mass shooters, it inspires others to act similarly. 

Speaking of mass shootings, while a 2nd Amendment proponent, our lack of gun control is a fucking travesty. 

10 hours ago, Hermanator said:

high quality GIF

That lunatic has run through a bunch of usernames and always posts shit that makes you think he's a jackass

2 usernames. And this idiot thought Sark was on the hot seat because Casey transferred. 

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YGIFS

YGIFS 19452

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I think we actually do an okay/not great job of vilifying/not sensationalizing mass shooters.  But yeah, we are awful still about serial killers.  It went from hard-to-read biographies to full-on multi-season streaming series about these fuckers.  

But there are some overarching themes that remain with regard to horrific murderers.  Moms killing kids is a failed mental health/CPS system.  Serial killers, however twisted, have the decency to space out their murders over time and place.  Gang shootings, while tragically taking out innocent bystanders on occasion, largely confine their murders to other folks "in the game."  The  mass shooter remains the demonic outlier because he typically kills at random and has the capacity to kill at higher rates in shorter bursts of time because of the tools at his disposal.  

That humanity has had serial killers and baby killers in its midst for tens of thousands of years is bone-chilling.  It's always walked along side us.  Random mass shootings is a recent phenomenon (relative to the length of human history and technology).  But that it only happens in a handful of places on our large planet is awfully telling.  Mommies snap and kill babies all over the world.  Why is the mass shooting thing largely only American?  

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Mole

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3 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I gotta say, “we should execute people quickly, without appeal” versus “we should torture them first though” is not the capital punishment argument I would think might get heated at the dinner table. 

If we extended the window to three weeks, we could get both an expedited execution and a solid week of torturing. Win-win.

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