Why do we play zone defense against garbage QBs?

[Catdaddyhorn 3467]

I understand the worry against  running threats like Martinez and Sanders, but damn can't we spy them and play man at least half the time?  I doubt they reach even 20 points had we mixed in more man tonight.

Martinez,  Sanders, & Donovan  Smith are all QBs who struggle with accuracy yet we sat back in soft coverage in all 3 games allowing them to get into rhythm by repeatedly throwing it to wide open receivers who were standing still.

Brock Huard all but said that Kwiatkowski admitted that our guys don't know how to play zone. Addionally, Sark said ahead of the season that he'd like to see our guys play tighter coverage. With all this, why does Kwiatkowski keep running them out there in zone packages.   Someone who knows more about football than me please explain to me why we're so stubborn about this shit. Is he so impressed with his scheme that he force feed something on to them that he admits they do poorly. Today I watched LSU and Georgia play a simple ass schemes and man up the guys on the outside against uber tier QBs, yet we're too scared to play tight man against QBs who struggle to hit moving targets. It just doesn't make sense.  

 

Edited November 6, 2022 by Catdaddyhorn

[Hookem2147 22037]

This isn’t TexAgs. There are threads dedicated to comments like this. Doesn’t need a new one.

Edited November 6, 2022 by Hookem2147

[Dark Horse 2430]

1 minute ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

I understand the worry against a running threat like Martinez and Sanders, but damn can't we spy them and play man at least half the time.  I doubt they reach even 20 points had we mixed in more man tonight. Martinez,  Sanders, & Donovan  Smith are all QBs who struggle with accuracy yet we sat back in soft coverage all game allowing them to get into rhythm by repeatedly throwing it to wide open receivers. Brock Huard all but said that Kwiatkowski admitted that our guys don't know how to play zone. Addionally, Sark said ahead of the season that he'd like to see our guys play tighter coverage. With all this, why does Kwiatkowski keep running them out there in zone packages.   Someone who knows more about football than me please explain to me why we're so stubborn about this shit. Is he so impressed with his scheme that he force feed something on to them that he admits they do poorly. Today I watched LSU and Georgia play a simple ass schemes and man up the guys on the outside against uber tier QBs, yet we're too scared to play tight man against QBs who struggle to hit moving targets. It just doesn't make sense.  

 

He’s a running QB, and we want eyes on him?

[Catdaddyhorn 3467]

I remarked on that consideration in my very first sentence. 

Edited November 6, 2022 by Catdaddyhorn

[Dark Horse 2430]

Just now, Catdaddyhorn said:

I remarked on that consideration in my very first sentence. 

What happened when we ran man coverage? Do you think we didn’t run any man?

[Catdaddyhorn 3467]

3 minutes ago, Dark Horse said:

What happened when we ran man coverage? Do you think we didn’t run any man?

We executed and Martinez made some horrible throws against man. That wheel route along the right sideline that fell at the receivers back heel comes to mind. He also missed on that slant against Jamison in the end zone.  

[Dark Horse 2430]

1 minute ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

We executed and Martinez made some horrible throws against man. That wheel route along the right sideline that fell at the receivers back heel comes to mind. He also missed on that slant against Jamison in the end zone.  

Ok; we will be the only team in CFB to run man every play. What coverage were we running on the Ford INT?

[hookem48 4857]

11 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

I understand the worry against  running threats like Martinez and Sanders, but damn can't we spy them and play man at least half the time?  I doubt they reach even 20 points had we mixed in more man tonight.

Martinez,  Sanders, & Donovan  Smith are all QBs who struggle with accuracy yet we sat back in soft coverage in all 3 games allowing them to get into rhythm by repeatedly throwing it to wide open receivers who were standing still.

Brock Huard all but said that Kwiatkowski admitted that our guys don't know how to play zone. Addionally, Sark said ahead of the season that he'd like to see our guys play tighter coverage. With all this, why does Kwiatkowski keep running them out there in zone packages.   Someone who knows more about football than me please explain to me why we're so stubborn about this shit. Is he so impressed with his scheme that he force feed something on to them that he admits they do poorly. Today I watched LSU and Georgia play a simple ass schemes and man up the guys on the outside against uber tier QBs, yet we're too scared to play tight man against QBs who struggle to hit moving targets. It just doesn't make sense.  

 

play man vs a running qb and see what happens.

[BigOrange1 6611]

because our defensive coordinator is average as fuck??

[Catdaddyhorn 3467]

4 minutes ago, hookem48 said:

play man vs a running qb and see what happens.

Yeah it's impossible to play man against a running qB and spy him at the same time.  It's literally never been done before. 

 

Give me a break.  I'm obviously not calling for man 100% of the time, but mixing it in more that 10% would be worthwhile, especially against QBs who struggle with accuracy.  And I mentioned 3 different QBs in my initial post. I know he's black but Donovan Smith is not a running QB, at least not in the elusive sense.  And Sanders couldn't get the ball more than 20 yards down field against us with his detached shoulder yet we sat back in zone allowing inside releases snap after snap. 

[Stunns38 3805]

We had Ovie spy Sanders…that ended well.

[hookem48 4857]

hard to believe anyone could watch our dbacks and think we should be playing more man

[Hookem2147 22037]

Our numbers when playing zone are MUCH better than playing man. It isn’t close.

[Hermanator 7674]

Running zone isn't a problem. 

Running it poorly is. 

The teams likes to sit back in their zones and let receivers cross them instead of aggressively man marking their individual zones. They're way too soft. 

I hate to say it because we're 6-3, lost 2 games because Ewers couldn't throw a ball straight, and just beat a top 15 team on the road... but this defense isn't making enough progress. PK has to go at season's end. The talent is there to be better than this. Too much poor play, poorly run schemes, and mental mistakes. 

On offense it's inexplicable that they cannot put up 2nd half points against teams. Scored 31 in the first half and only 3 in the 2nd. It keeps happening and I don't know how to fix that. It makes no sense.  

[Surly Bevo 25753]

Uhhhh we have no edge players and our pass rush sucks balls?  Even when we do get a sack it takes 20 minutes to do it.  Georgia can man up all day because the QB has no fucking time to think, much less make a good thrown on 75% of their drop backs.  

[ClubWhatever 12314]

I think PKs objective is to stop the run and limit big plays.  We do a decent job of that.  It’s excruciating to watch but it does what it’s supposed to.  If we had good edges, LBs, and a not-Jamison CB, the scheme would be  pretty salty.  Have to develop and recruit those pieces. 

Edited November 6, 2022 by ClubWhatever

[hookem48 4857]

5 minutes ago, Hermanator said:

Running zone isn't a problem. 

Running it poorly is. 

The teams likes to sit back in their zones and let receivers cross them instead of aggressively man marking their individual zones. They're way too soft. 

I hate to say it because we're 6-3, lost 2 games because Ewers couldn't throw a ball straight, and just beat a top 15 team on the road... but this defense isn't making enough progress. PK has to go at season's end. The talent is there to be better than this. Too much poor play, poorly run schemes, and mental mistakes. 

On offense it's inexplicable that they cannot put up 2nd half points against teams. Scored 31 in the first half and only 3 in the 2nd. It keeps happening and I don't know how to fix that. It makes no sense.  

Offense not starting 1st and 15s would've helped, Worthy getting both hands on the ball instead of sticking his tiny hand out like that was going to stop a hit coming and not fumbling after picking up a 1st down would've helped.

[Hermanator 7674]

45 minutes ago, hookem48 said:

Offense not starting 1st and 15s would've helped, Worthy getting both hands on the ball instead of sticking his tiny hand out like that was going to stop a hit coming and not fumbling after picking up a 1st down would've helped.

It's happening every game. It's far more than just a few things in one game. They consistently are poor on offense in the 2nd half when they have as much offensive talent as anyone and have dominated top 15 teams in the first half. We have more 14+ point 2nd half collapses under Sark than most teams have in a decade

[Valmy77 13626]

50 minutes ago, ClubWhatever said:

I think PKs objective is to stop the run and limit big plays.  We do a decent job of that.  It’s excruciating to watch but it does what it’s supposed to.  If we had good edges, LBs, and a not-Jamison CB, the scheme would be  pretty salty.  Have to develop and recruit those pieces. 

Yeah. Say what you want about PK we don't just get gashed over and over again anymore like years past. 

K-State got us with that one TD pass but other than that we made them work for it.

[HtownHorn 15235]

2 hours ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

We executed and Martinez made some horrible throws against man. That wheel route along the right sideline that fell at the receivers back heel comes to mind. He also missed on that slant against Jamison in the end zone.  

He also picked up a lot of easy yards and 1st downs running the ball. The problem isn't playing zone, it's that our players are horrible at pattern recognition and drops.

Edited November 6, 2022 by HtownHorn

[hookem48 4857]

1 minute ago, Hermanator said:

It's happening every game. It's far more than just a few things in one game. They consistently are poor on offense in the 2nd half when they have as much offensive talent as anyone and have dominated top 15 teams in the first half. We have more 14+ point 2nd half collapses under Sark than most teams have in a decade

Yep, but I was only talking about tonight.

[hookem48 4857]

3 minutes ago, Valmy77 said:

Yeah. Say what you want about PK we don't just get gashed over and over again anymore like years past. 

K-State got us with that one TD pass but other than that we made them work for it.

at least the midget didn't go for 150 like I thought he would.

[Vic Mackey 47965]

This isn’t TexAgs. There are threads dedicated to comments like this. Doesn’t need a new one.

Oh no!! A new thread. Heaven forbid. Because mega threads with thousands of replies are the best to siphon through.

[Vertigo 20499]

We had players potato when they got near martinez most of the game. He would simply sidestep or run out of an arm tackle. Most of his big plays were after we missed him in spectacular fashion. We just dont know how to go for the throat yet.

[Valmy77 13626]

2 minutes ago, Vertigo said:

We had players potato when they got near martinez most of the game. He would simply sidestep or run out of an arm tackle. Most of his big plays were after we missed him in spectacular fashion. We just dont know how to go for the throat yet.

That seems to be a thing we have done all year. That UTSA QB was doing similar stuff. And of course that huge wiff that cost us the game against Bama.

[Catdaddyhorn 3467]

8 hours ago, Surly Bevo said:

Uhhhh we have no edge players and our pass rush sucks balls?  Even when we do get a sack it takes 20 minutes to do it.  Georgia can man up all day because the QB has no fucking time to think, much less make a good thrown on 75% of their drop backs.  

Go look at the stats. We put much more pressure on QBs than Georgia. Yesterday was the first game Georgia really harassed a QB all season. 

7 hours ago, HtownHorn said:

He also picked up a lot of easy yards and 1st downs running the ball. The problem isn't playing zone, it's that our players are horrible at pattern recognition and drops.

A lot of those scrambles were against zone coverage. 

[Catdaddyhorn 3467]

And we allow a quick passing game because of the soft coverage we play. More man coverage reduces the opportunity for opposing WRs to get open early, thus giving our pass rush (which gets a lot of pressures) more opportunities to turn those pressures into sacks. 

[JBJ 3828]

 

9 hours ago, Hookem2147 said:

Our numbers when playing zone are MUCH better than playing man. It isn’t close.

It's this.  We suck at man.  Behind Jamison and Watts, we don't have the guys good enough in coverage to do it.

[hookem48 4857]

2 minutes ago, JBJ said:

 

It's this.  We suck at man.  Behind Jamison and Watts, we don't have the guys good enough in coverage to do it.

how the hell can you tell if Jamison is in man or zone?

[Hookem2147 22037]

21 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

And we allow a quick passing game because of the soft coverage we play. More man coverage reduces the opportunity for opposing WRs to get open early, thus giving our pass rush (which gets a lot of pressures) more opportunities to turn those pressures into sacks. 

Man coverage increases the risk for coverage busts and 1 v 1 matchups, both of which we have shown we are vulnerable to. 

Our zone coverage is FAR better than our man coverage. For example, Spencer Sanders completed 42% of passes against us when we were playing zone and over 70% when we were in man.

And Kansas State's quick passing game was quiet most of the night. Almost every chunk play came to Vaughn or a TE/WR up the seam or hero ball by Martinez. I don't recall many slants at all.

[bschoolprof 6343]

My (biased) recollection is we had more stops (lulz) in this game in man than zone, but whatever - we do both horribly.  And there is no indication our players are getting any better 2 years in.  This is the worst pass defense I've ever witnessed at Texas. Martinez had more completions, more yards, and the highest completion % he's had against conference opponents all season.  We make every QB we play look like Aaron Rodgers. 

TCU and Kansas will absolutely torch this back 7. PK and the entire D staff absolutely has to be let go ASAP.  

Edited November 6, 2022 by bschoolprof

[Zeus 6864]

Rub routes

But yeah we should be playing that Bama D that is a man/switch concept.

[Zeus 6864]

8 hours ago, Vic Mackey said:

10 hours ago, Hookem2147 said:

This isn’t TexAgs. There are threads dedicated to comments like this. Doesn’t need a new one.

Oh no!! A new thread. Heaven forbid. Because mega threads with thousands of replies are the best to siphon through.

Well there is a PK what the fuck do you do here thread to axe this question in...

[Hookem2147 22037]

4 minutes ago, Zeus said:

But yeah we should be playing that Bama D that is a man/switch concept.

Saban refusing to play more zone is one of the main reasons the Bama defense is struggling as much as they are right now.

[Firemans4Horn 18533]

10 minutes ago, bschoolprof said:

This is the worst pass defense I've ever witnessed at Texas.

Have you just awaken from a 12 year coma?

[Catdaddyhorn 3467]

24 minutes ago, Hookem2147 said:

Man coverage increases the risk for coverage busts and 1 v 1 matchups, both of which we have shown we are vulnerable to. 

Our zone coverage is FAR better than our man coverage. For example, Spencer Sanders completed 42% of passes against us when we were playing zone and over 70% when we were in man.

And Kansas State's quick passing game was quiet most of the night. Almost every chunk play came to Vaughn or a TE/WR up the seam or hero ball by Martinez. I don't recall many slants at all.

Where are you pulling these stats from? My recollection from the Okla St game is that most of those slants and glance over the middle routes that Sanders got against us were against zone coverages where our LBs didnt get enough depth (surprise).  That quarters coverage we run is still a zone and we dont match up particular well at all as someone up above alluded to. 

Edited November 6, 2022 by Catdaddyhorn

[Hookem2147 22037]

8 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

Where are you pulling these stats from? My recollection from the Okla St game is that most of those slants and glance over the middle routes that Sanders got against us were against zone coverages where our LBs didnt get enough depth (surprise).  That quarters coverage we run is still a zone and we dont match up particular well at all as some one up above alluded to. 

From Bill Connelly. Here is the OSU game and Tech game. Both completed under 50% of their passes when we were playing zone.

[TwiceHorn 32083]

8 hours ago, Hermanator said:

It's happening every game. It's far more than just a few things in one game. They consistently are poor on offense in the 2nd half when they have as much offensive talent as anyone and have dominated top 15 teams in the first half. We have more 14+ point 2nd half collapses under Sark than most teams have in a decade

It seems to me that the best explanation of this is that during the first half, between the individual talents we've got and Sark's schemes, it comes too easily:  the schemes and the talent build up big leads without having to be extraordinarily focused or intense.

Halftime comes, the other team adjusts, and, it's not that we don't adjust, it's just that what was so effortless in the first half becomes a struggle and the offense just can't seem to turn it up in intensity until the lead is endangered and then they play tight. Then the defense spends too much time on the field, has to sub in the young and inexperienced, and isn't that good to begin with in terms of talent, scheme, and execution.

I think a part of the lack of intensity in the second half is that the offense has leaders by example, but not firebrands like Ehlinger.  That's clearly the documented case with Ewers, and he's young.  Seems to also be the case with Bijan and RoJo, great as they are.  And there's a lot of youth.

I suppose Sarkisian bears some responsibility for this, but it's hard to blame individual and collective efforts on the head coach.

[Catdaddyhorn 3467]

Well I'll be damned. I guess I assumed playing 10 yards off of WRs was zone coverage. Fuck me, I guess they were playing man from 10 yards away. 

[TwiceHorn 32083]

The commentators mentioned that in zone, they didn't seem adequately focused on their responsibilities and that Patterson was brought in in part to tighten that up?  And it seemed that they were basing this on observation and not on something in their "press packet."

It occurs to me that Gideon was coached by Akina?  Akina, as good as he was, never was good with zones and seemed not to like them, IIRC and part of that was that he didn't like something about the LBs in zone and was "fighting" with the LB coach.

[hookem48 4857]

10 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

Well I'll be damned. I guess I assumed playing 10 yards off of WRs was zone coverage. Fuck me, I guess they were playing man from 10 yards away. 

your first game watching Jamison?

[Catdaddyhorn 3467]

2 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

The commentators mentioned that in zone, they didn't seem adequately focused on their responsibilities and that Patterson was brought in in part to tighten that up?  And it seemed that they were basing this on observation and not on something in their "press packet."

It occurs to me that Gideon was coached by Akina?  Akina, as good as he was, never was good with zones and seemed not to like them, IIRC and part of that was that he didn't like something about the LBs in zone and was "fighting" with the LB coach.

Yep Huard in particular said their eyes and positioning when finding WRs in their area was extremely poor in zone. He mentioned that Kwiatkowski told him this. 

[Catdaddyhorn 3467]

12 minutes ago, hookem48 said:

your first game watching Jamison?

Jamison has played fairly well this year. 

[Hagbard Celine 11259]

10 hours ago, ClubWhatever said:

I think PKs objective is to stop the run and limit big plays.  We do a decent job of that.  It’s excruciating to watch but it does what it’s supposed to.  If we had good edges, LBs, and a not-Jamison CB, the scheme would be  pretty salty.  Have to develop and recruit those pieces. 

we give up the first 70 yards of the field guaranteed by keeping everything in front of us.  absolutely agree this is by intent to stop chunk plays.  every wounded duck served under pressure gets caught for a first down.  we don't start contesting space until the range of the opponent's kicker.

it's excruciating to watch.

[hookem48 4857]

3 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

Jamison has played fairly well this year. 

he's run away from enough contact this year to embarrass Deion

[hookem48 4857]

1 minute ago, Hagbard Celine said:

we give up the first 70 yards of the field guaranteed by keeping everything in front of us.  absolutely agree this is by intent to stop chunk plays.  every wounded duck served under pressure gets caught for a first down.  we don't start contesting space until the range of the opponent's kicker.

it's excruciating to watch.

bend but don't break to the extreme.

[Hagbard Celine 11259]

9 hours ago, hookem48 said:

at least the midget didn't go for 150 like I thought he would.

i kept seeing lockett on #22's uniform

[TwiceHorn 32083]

1 minute ago, Hagbard Celine said:

we give up the first 70 yards of the field guaranteed by keeping everything in front of us.  absolutely agree this is by intent to stop chunk plays.  every wounded duck served under pressure gets caught for a first down.  we don't start contesting space until the range of the opponent's kicker.

it's excruciating to watch.

My recollection of the past may not be great, but this scheme seems so Pac-12.  At one time, when PK was coaching there, they were an offensive league that kind of lived and died by big pass plays combined with a fairly conventional run game.  "Pro-style" offenses dominated that league, IIRC.

Post-Leach, the Big XII, if not everyone else, incorporates a lot of dink and dunk, not that many explosive plays, but eat up yardage in sub-10 yard chunks.  They may not be as good at it as Leach's TTU, but it's damn sure part of most of their offensive repertoire.

It seems like PKs philosophy is exactly wrong for the Big XII, if not everywhere these days.

[Hagbard Celine 11259]

1 hour ago, Zeus said:

Well there is a PK what the fuck do you do here thread to axe this question in...

i got burned out on the pk thread a month ago

this thread topic question is timely and informative

 

[Radical Larry 28822]

I understand the worry against  running threats like Martinez and Sanders, but damn can't we spy them and play man at least half the time?  I doubt they reach even 20 points had we mixed in more man tonight.
Martinez,  Sanders, & Donovan  Smith are all QBs who struggle with accuracy yet we sat back in soft coverage in all 3 games allowing them to get into rhythm by repeatedly throwing it to wide open receivers who were standing still.
Brock Huard all but said that Kwiatkowski admitted that our guys don't know how to play zone. Addionally, Sark said ahead of the season that he'd like to see our guys play tighter coverage. With all this, why does Kwiatkowski keep running them out there in zone packages.   Someone who knows more about football than me please explain to me why we're so stubborn about this shit. Is he so impressed with his scheme that he force feed something on to them that he admits they do poorly. Today I watched LSU and Georgia play a simple ass schemes and man up the guys on the outside against uber tier QBs, yet we're too scared to play tight man against QBs who struggle to hit moving targets. It just doesn't make sense.  
 

Just to piss you off.