2023 Official Astros World Champs Offseason Thread

[Wulaw Horn 19069]

5 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Are you really worried that signing Montero is going to prevent Jim Crane from filling a position of need? 

Yeah. I think we are going to pay the price of success where you bring back guys bc they won before like Montero (maybe JV) Yuli and Brantley. If I’m wrong I will be ecstatic and eat crow. 

[Fudge Nuggets 19190]

1 minute ago, Wulaw Horn said:

If we now have enough money to cover that kind of spending cool. 

So maybe wait a little bit and see what other moves get / don’t get made before losing your shit over this one?

[Mo Horn 8832]

16 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

start the 2024 offseason thread !

 

 

 

If it were me, I would trade any of the starters, except Framber, and put Brown in the rotation. 

[Fudge Nuggets 19190]

1 minute ago, Wulaw Horn said:

If I’m wrong I will be ecstatic and eat crow. 

Good one.  I laughed.

Just now, Mo Horn said:

If it were me, I would trade any of the starters, except Framber, and put Brown in the rotation. 

Don’t touch my man Javier. 

[kevwun 15774]

Astros Josh kinda sucks at projecting the rotation.

[Mo Horn 8832]

1 minute ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

Good one.  I laughed.

Don’t touch my man Javier. 

I almost said him and Framber, but I'd be willing to trade him for the right player, which IMO would need to be a starting fielder who can hit. 

[Wulaw Horn 19069]

3 minutes ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

So maybe wait a little bit and see what other moves get / don’t get made before losing your shit over this one?

I mean, what fun would that (probably imminently rational and reasonable approach) be?  
some people get fired up during a game when we fall behind and grip over 162 of them. The off-season is like my version of a game thread as I’m pretty much never like this on actual game threads. 
 

[David Dennison 18854]

5 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Except it’s not. It’s a move away from analytically based decision making and value signings which was the hallmark of this team getting where it is, and apparently Bagwell and Reggie Jackson now have the owners ear instead of math quant dorks and management consultants that built what has been so successful. 
that’s the move away. If we now have enough money to cover that kind of spending cool. 

I would be more concerned if they were signing free agents to long term deals.

[Wulaw Horn 19069]

5 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

I would be more concerned if they were signing free agents to long term deals.

I mean- he’s a FA and 3 years is a long term deal for a bullpen guy. Basically as long as it gets other than established closers. 

[David Dennison 18854]

5 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I mean- he’s a FA and 3 years is a long term deal for a bullpen guy. Basically as long as it gets other than established closers. 

But it's not a move away from their core philosophy regarding free agents.

[Huckleberry 32856]

It's not a smart signing; regardless of how much Crane is willing to spend it by definition lowers the resources available to address weaknesses that needed attention. This isn't complicated. 

The 2010 Longhorns analogy is solid. There was a loud Trust The Coaches contingent as recruiting nerds were saying there were problems with recruiting after the title (camp fever, worrying about offer acceptance rate instead of recruiting the best prospects, etc.). And while those problems were covered up for a while by a handful of studs, the foundation was rotten and the program is still paying for it 12 years after it all came crashing down. 

One overspend on a middle reliever won't destroy the foundation. But only if it's a one-off, fans are absolutely right to loudly hope that it isn't the sign of a trend. 

[runthebone 7977]

Maybe wait to see what the terms are.  Maybe it's 2 for 16 with a club option 3rd year!

[David Dennison 18854]

10 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

It's not a smart signing; regardless of how much Crane is willing to spend it by definition lowers the resources available to address weaknesses that needed attention. This isn't complicated. 

The 2010 Longhorns analogy is solid. There was a loud Trust The Coaches contingent as recruiting nerds were saying there were problems with recruiting after the title (camp fever, worrying about offer acceptance rate instead of recruiting the best prospects, etc.). And while those problems were covered up for a while by a handful of studs, the foundation was rotten and the program is still paying for it 12 years after it all came crashing down. 

One overspend on a middle reliever won't destroy the foundation. But only if it's a one-off, fans are absolutely right to loudly hope that it isn't the sign of a trend. 

By how much per year?

[Wulaw Horn 19069]

It’s basically the same point Ineas making when I crucified Click over the Odorizzi and shit fuck dodger reliever scrub signing at the time. People were like it’s only 16M. Well- we could have brought Carlos back on that 16M plus his 12M more or less. We won the WS. I get that. It makes me incredibly happy. I’m a season ticket holder so I’m invested as fuck in all this. But we won the WS with 3 black holes in the lineup, which we should all agree is a very dubious and sub optimal situation that we should damn sure not try to replicate. 

[Wulaw Horn 19069]

18 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

It's not a smart signing; regardless of how much Crane is willing to spend it by definition lowers the resources available to address weaknesses that needed attention. This isn't complicated. 

The 2010 Longhorns analogy is solid. There was a loud Trust The Coaches contingent as recruiting nerds were saying there were problems with recruiting after the title (camp fever, worrying about offer acceptance rate instead of recruiting the best prospects, etc.). And while those problems were covered up for a while by a handful of studs, the foundation was rotten and the program is still paying for it 12 years after it all came crashing down. 

One overspend on a middle reliever won't destroy the foundation. But only if it's a one-off, fans are absolutely right to loudly hope that it isn't the sign of a trend. 

In amongst a great post all the way through, the last paragraph shines brightest as the crux of the entire matter. In a vacuum it’s no big deal. If it’s a trend it does not portend good things at all. It feels sort of like a trend combined with all the pro Bagwell and Reggie Jackson talk. 
if Stearns shows up in 2 months time (or Sid or Fast) it’s a big relief and indicates there’s probably not any danger to the foundation.  

[David Dennison 18854]

3 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

It’s basically the same point Ineas making when I crucified Click over the Odorizzi and shit fuck dodger reliever scrub signing at the time. People were like it’s only 16M. Well- we could have brought Carlos back on that 16M plus his 12M more or less. We won the WS. I get that. It makes me incredibly happy. I’m a season ticket holder so I’m invested as fuck in all this. But we won the WS with 3 black holes in the lineup, which we should all agree is a very dubious and sub optimal situation that we should damn sure not try to replicate. 

There is a big difference between could have and would have.

[formermav43 4606]

Not as big as the difference between could and cannot.

Edited November 12, 2022 by formermav43

[Wulaw Horn 19069]

8 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

There is a big difference between could have and would have.

Fair. But you can’t ignore opportunity cost. And we’ve been cheap with big talent (Springer didn’t even get a big deal at all- we should have been all over that) while spending 8 figures on middle relievers and replacement level starters. 

[David Dennison 18854]

5 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

Not as big as the difference between could and cannot.

Concern level: expert.

[tx 3 putt 76908]

 

[Scraps 13561]

I almost said him and Framber, but I'd be willing to trade him for the right player

Ohtani. Thats it...thats the list.

Jesus christ we better not trade Javier. He is more valuable than Framber

[formermav43 4606]

Just now, David Dennison said:

Concern level: expert.

It's the same point Wulaw made with opportunity cost. 

[David Dennison 18854]

6 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

It's the same point Wulaw made with opportunity cost. 

Yeah, and it's worked.

That could always change.

[Wulaw Horn 19069]

5 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Yeah, and it's worked.

That could always change.

It hasn’t worked because we did it  it’s worked inspire of it. 
deals I’ve bitched about: Odorizi (from the first second it was signed) Baez, Neris. Really wanted Brantley traded or not signed. I mean- thats way more than the piddly 25M Springer makes per year. There is a very decent chance we win the WS in 21 with George back. There’s also a very very good chance we win the WS this year if Stanek gets all Neris innings. 
More importantly (as a fan) though I freaking love Springer (and Correa) and Charlie Morton and not bringing those guys back but spending instead on dipshit Odorizi and fuck face Baez and not getting to watch Springer celebrate with the guys is just less fun than it could have been, and it didn’t need to be that way. 
 

[David Dennison 18854]

1 minute ago, Wulaw Horn said:

It hasn’t worked because we did it  it’s worked inspire of it. 
deals I’ve bitched about: Odorizi (from the first second it was signed) Baez, Neris. Really wanted Brantley traded or not signed. I mean- thats way more than the piddly 25M Springer makes per year. There is a very decent chance we win the WS in 21 with George back. There’s also a very very good chance we win the WS this year if Stanek gets all Neris innings. 
More importantly (as a fan) though I freaking love Springer (and Correa) and Charlie Morton and not bringing those guys back but spending instead on dipshit Odorizi and fuck face Baez and not getting to watch Springer celebrate with the guys is just less fun than it could have been, and it didn’t need to be that way. 
 

Do you think George Springer would have signed a five year contract? 

[Wulaw Horn 19069]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Do you think George Springer would have signed a five year contract? 

We could have given him 6. He’s going to earn out that 150M or at least come close. 

[David Dennison 18854]

2 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

We could have given him 6. He’s going to earn out that 150M or at least come close. 

Sure we could have, but you didn't answer my question.

[runthebone 7977]

Resigning Montero also allows us to include Maton in a potential Ohtani deal.

[Wulaw Horn 19069]

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Sure we could have, but you didn't answer my question.

He would have signed for 5 if it was for 150 I’m sure. Why we’d prefer that to 6/150 I cant fathom, but in a long term deal a FA signs after 30 they aren’t looking at AAV they are just concerned with total dollar figure. 

[Wulaw Horn 19069]

I mean- we left 25M unspent this year and wasted 16M last year on Odo and Baez. Sometimes I wake up sobbing and crying to myself when I think about how much fun an Alvarez/Springer/Tucker OF would be. We could have had that the last 2 years for nothing and then had Springer for 3/90 right now (or 4/100). Would anyone wish we didn’t have that contract on our books?  Would anyone not have loved seeing Springer on the parade this year?  

[David Dennison 18854]

7 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I mean- we left 25M unspent this year and wasted 16M last year on Odo and Baez. Sometimes I wake up sobbing and crying to myself when I think about how much fun an Alvarez/Springer/Tucker OF would be. We could have had that the last 2 years for nothing and then had Springer for 3/90 right now (or 4/100). Would anyone wish we didn’t have that contract on our books?  Would anyone not have loved seeing Springer on the parade this year?  

George Springer is why I really hope we can reach an agreement with Kyle Tucker.

[WBT 20562]

I'm in complete agreement with Wulaw here.  We had more pitching than we needed this postseason.  We could have gotten by fine without 2 of Abreu, Neris, Montero, and Stanek.  We had Urquidy, Garcia, and Brown mostly sitting on their hands all playoffs when they could have been ueed as multi-inning weapons like Peacock, McHugh, and Morton were in 2017.  

Philosophically, one inning relievers are the most fungible with the most year to year variability of any position.  Spending so much money on them doesn't make sense.

[Wulaw Horn 19069]

32 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

George Springer is why I really hope we can reach an agreement with Kyle Tucker.

Luke tucker ain’t signing an extension I don’t believe. Offer him 10/250 though and see if that piques his interest. 

[rvm96 1643]

John McClain agreed with the signing of Montero. With that in mind I call it the worst deal of all time.

[Fudge Nuggets 19190]

7 minutes ago, rvm96 said:

John McClain agreed with the signing of Montero. With that in mind I call it the worst deal of all time.

0-162.

We're so dooooooooomed.  And yes, I know you're joking around.  Same here.

[Guadaloopy 10961]

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

It’s basically the same point Ineas making when I crucified Click over the Odorizzi and shit fuck dodger reliever scrub signing at the time. People were like it’s only 16M. Well- we could have brought Carlos back on that 16M plus his 12M more or less. We won the WS. I get that. It makes me incredibly happy. I’m a season ticket holder so I’m invested as fuck in all this. But we won the WS with 3 black holes in the lineup, which we should all agree is a very dubious and sub optimal situation that we should damn sure not try to replicate. 

Resigning Correa would have provided X in the end equation?

I don't disagree with your main point, but not chasing Correa with the Brinks truck has surely been proven to have been a great, if not brilliant move.

Again, don't disagree with the Odorizzi point, but need to discuss the whole report card.

[runthebone 7977]

How dare you guys shit on Odor.  He is a World Series champion!

[Amos Moses 795]

John McClain agreed with the signing of Montero. With that in mind I call it the worst deal of all time.

That fat fuck is still alive?

[TonyTexas 10510]

5 hours ago, henrygandorf said:

That might be funny if you didn’t know that is far from the truth. 

[Chapo 104]

Signing Montero pretty much means JV is out.  They will spend another $10M on a LH reliever so 45M leftover to shore up the bats.  Thats plenty for Contreras AND a 1B (Abreu, Bell  or Rizzo).

[formermav43 4606]

They don’t need a lefty reliever at all. And they DEFINITELY don’t need $50 million tied up in the bullpen, that’s nuts.

[tx 3 putt 76908]

let lee and diaz fight it out for the #2 catcher's spot 

[Mitch Hedberg 2090]

Longhorns sure do make me miss baseball 

[Chapo 104]

1 hour ago, formermav43 said:

They don’t need a lefty reliever at all. And they DEFINITELY don’t need $50 million tied up in the bullpen, that’s nuts.

Tell that to Dusty who has Crane's ear

[WBT 20562]

5 hours ago, slorch said:

Resigning Correa would have provided X in the end equation?

 

I'm not following you?  This team would have been better with Correa on it, even if he opted out after this year.

[David Dennison 18854]

2 minutes ago, WBT said:

I'm not following you?  This team would have been better with Correa on it, even if he opted out after this year.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but if you're right, you're not right by much. 

[Wulaw Horn 19069]

23 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

I'm not saying you're wrong, but if you're right, you're not right by much. 

Correa and Peña could both play at the same time. It would have been a lot better if that happened (and Correa could have opted out and moved on with another ring). I guess maybe they were philosophically opposed to a 1 year deal but I don’t know why that would have been. 
interesting note from a guy who knows things on Clutch fans/ he said Crane was driving the Oena train, not Click, and that Click was the impediment to Peña hitting 2nd and Dusty went over Cranes head to make that happen. 
he had some really interesting shit. Nook is his name. 

[David Dennison 18854]

29 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Correa and Peña could both play at the same time. It would have been a lot better if that happened (and Correa could have opted out and moved on with another ring). I guess maybe they were philosophically opposed to a 1 year deal but I don’t know why that would have been. 
interesting note from a guy who knows things on Clutch fans/ he said Crane was driving the Oena train, not Click, and that Click was the impediment to Peña hitting 2nd and Dusty went over Cranes head to make that happen. 
he had some really interesting shit. Nook is his name. 

That's a big maybe.

[Wulaw Horn 19069]

10 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

That's a big maybe.

I mean, if he opted in to 2/70 would anyone be upset by that?