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2023 Hall of Fame thread

Beau Vine

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Beau Vine

Beau Vine 54334

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JoePos:

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OK, so now that the baseball season ends … JoeBlogs season begins. It stinks to have no baseball to watch, but this has always been one of my favorite baseball times to write. We’ve got awards to talk about, baseball ideas to talk about, baseball stories to tell and memories to share and, of course, most of all, we’ll be talking a whole lot about the Baseball Hall of Fame.

On Monday, the Baseball Hall of Fame announced its Contemporary Baseball Era Players Ballot, and it’s a DOOOOOZY. Before we take a quick run-through of the ballot — with so much more to come — let’s give a quick explanation of what’s going on.

Since the beginning, the Hall of Fame has had the Baseball Writers Association of America — the famed BBWAA — decide which players should go in the Hall of Fame. This is the big vote. But almost since the beginning, there have been various smaller committees put together to vote for — well, lots of things. The committees have voted in managers and executives and umpires and that sort of thing. They have voted in Negro leaguers. And they have also voted in lots of players who they felt were unfairly overlooked by the BBWAA.

To get a complete picture:

— There have been 130 players elected to the Hall of Fame by the BBWAA.

— There have been 138 players elected to the Hall of Fame by various committees.

— There have also been 22 managers elected, 40 executives/pioneers elected and 10 umpires elected by the committees.

So in all, while people argue a whole lot about who the BBWAA does and does not elect, the BBWAA entries make up only THIRTY-EIGHT PERCENT of the people in the Hall of Fame. We’ll break all of this down in even greater detail as Hall of Fame season continues.

But for now, what you need to know is that the Hall of Fame has a new committee getting together this year called “The Contemporary Baseball Era Players Committee.” They will vote on eight players selected who played the bulk of their careers since 1980.

Next year, there will be a Contemporary Baseball Era Non-Players Committee, which will meet to discuss managers and executives and other non-players since 1980.

And the year after that, there will be a Classic Baseball Era Committee to discuss everybody who played, managed or worked in baseball before 1980.

 
I'll get back to those other committees next year. For now, we’re focusing on the new ballot and the eight players eligible to be elected to the Hall of Fame for 2023. A committee of 16 people will meet in early December to discuss those eight players. If a player gets 12 votes — that’s 12 out of 16, or 75% — they’re going to the Hall of Fame.

One more thing to point out: Each member of the committee can vote for as few as zero players, which is fine. But they can vote for only as many as three. That three-player limit creates a mathematical mousetrap that will make it difficult for players to get elected. As we go forward, we’ll get our math guru Tom Tango to explain.

But for now, let’s just kick things off by taking a very quick look at our eight candidates!

He might be my favorite Yankee, but Mattingly faces some stiff competition in this crowd. (Focus on Sport/Getty Images)

  • Albert Belle. Surly slugger. Hit 50 homers and 50 doubles in a single season. Led league in RBIs three times. When he was hot, he was as ferocious and fearsome a hitter as I’ve ever seen. 40.8 WAR.

  • Barry Bonds. Also a surly slugger. All-time record holder in homers (762), walks (2,558), intentional walks (688) and homers in a single season (73). Won seven MVP awards and eight Gold Gloves. Also stole 514 bases. Best damn player I’ve ever seen. Also, you know, PEDs. 162.8 WAR.

  • Roger Clemens. Surly hurler. Seven-time Cy Young Award winner. Led league in ERA seven times, in strikeouts five times and in FIP nine times. Won 354 games and struck out 4,672 batters. Ton Tango has shown that his career is essentially Pedro Martinez’s career and Sandy Koufax’s career COMBINED. Also, you know, PEDs. 138.7 WAR.

  • Don Mattingly. Donnie Baseball. A line drive machine before his back went out on him; he led the league in doubles three straight years from 1984 to ’86 and in those years also won a batting title, an RBI title and twice led the league in total bases. Nine-time Gold Glove winner. Bill James’ famous scouting report: 100% ballplayer, 0% bullshit. Still my favorite Yankees, faint praise though that might be. 42.4 WAR.

     

    Fred McGriff. Crime Dog. Beloved icon of back-to-back-to-back AAU National Championship teams. Hit 493 home runs. Top 50 all-time in homers, RBIs, walks and extra-base hits. One of the greatest follow-throughs of any hitter in baseball history. Would probably be in the Hall of Fame already had he hit seven more regular-season home runs. 52.6 WAR.

  • Dale Murphy. The Murph. Two-time MVP. Five-time Gold Glover. Five-tool player who had a 30-30 season in 1983. Was often called the best player in baseball during his career. One of the truly nicest people in baseball history. 46.5 WAR.

  • Rafael Palmeiro. Solid mustache. One of only seven players in baseball history to reach 3,000 hits AND 500 home runs. The other six are all first-ballot, no-doubt Hall of Famers who don’t even need a first name: Aaron, Cabrera, Mays, Murray, Pujols, A-Rod. Won three Gold Gloves, though one of the three was perhaps the oddest decision in Gold Glove history (he was a DH that season). Also, you know, PEDs. 72.8 WAR.

  • Curt Schilling. Provocateur. One of the greatest postseason pitchers in baseball history. Retired with the best strikeout-to-walk ratio among all pitchers in modern baseball history. World Series MVP. Winner of every baseball humanitarian and community service award, including the Branch Rickey, the Hutch, the Roberto Clemente and Lou Gehrig Awards. Has unapologetically picked a lot of fights in retirement. 80.5 WAR.

 

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HtownHorn

HtownHorn 14757

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1 hour ago, Beau Vine said:

You can only vote for 3, so the more names on the ballot, the lower the chance that anyone gets elected.

Fuck.

Then Bonds, Clemens, and McGriff

 

The thing that gets about McGriff is he's 7 HR's short of 500, but the writers never take into account that he missed half a season of games in his prime due to the strike. He'd easily have another 15-20+ HRs without the strike.

Edited by HtownHorn
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MaybeACoordinator

MaybeACoordinator 8349

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On 11/9/2022 at 1:34 PM, 66BUFF said:

Is this the same type of fucked up committee that put Harold Baines in the hall?

No that was the Chicago South Side Lil’ Sluggers Card Collectors Club Committee. I hear Ron Kittle and Rich Dotson are this year’s locks. 
 

As for the real task at hand: Bonds, Clemens, Palmeiro. I can see all of these guys plus Sweet Lou going in eventually, with Mattingly the least deserving. There are a shitload of guys you could say “What if he hadn’t gotten hurt” about who did not have a cool nickname and play for the Yankees. 

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petscii

petscii 1189

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3 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Fuck him.  He has had plenty of chances and made business decisions that being a martyr to his fanboys was more profitable. 

I don't care that he was surly (to coin a phrase), what I care about is that by betting on baseball games, even if he only bet on games he thought he was going to win, he gave other people information that the common punter did not have. It's also why I won't bet/watch an nba game going forward.  At some point it becomes wrasslin instead of sport.
 

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uoftorange

uoftorange 1386

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Rose is a true and utter piece of shit.  So are about 50% of the guys elected before 1960.  He deserves to be in jail for raping a 14 year old.  But he also deserves to be recognized as on of the all time greats at baseball, which he is.  

Bonds & Clemens should 100% be Hall of Famers.  It's a completely absurd argument to say otherwise.  Baseball has never been clean of roids/greenies/pain killers/cocaine/alcohol and many etc.'s   It's never, literally ever, been clean or without the best of the best trying to get advantages.

I'm also the believer that being famous, helps you get in the Hall of Fame.    It's an additional factor.  I hate the Yankees, I like maybe 5 guys since 1980 total that have played there.  Mattingly is one of those guys.  I'd love to see him in the Hall, he's been a baseball lifer, was great albeit for a shorter period, and was the most famous Yank of his era.

It's stupid as hell that Dale Murphy isn't in the Hall too.  

 

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tx 3 putt

tx 3 putt 77261

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22 minutes ago, petscii said:

I don't care that he was surly (to coin a phrase), what I care about is that by betting on baseball games, even if he only bet on games he thought he was going to win, he gave other people information that the common punter did not have. It's also why I won't bet/watch an nba game going forward.  At some point it becomes wrasslin instead of sport.
 

 

it takes a special kind of stupid to fuck up being baseball's all time hit leader. ladies and gentlemen, pete fucking rose !

fuck that douche. he should be banned for his haircut alone 

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MaybeACoordinator

MaybeACoordinator 8349

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I hated Rose as a player on teams that were rivals of and better than the Astros, and some “casual fans,” or “idiots” as I prefer to think of them, overrate his resume tremendously. (These are the people who think he was the best player of all time.)

No he was not. He was overrated.
 

The positives: He was an incredible singles hitter and define top-of-the-order pest.
 

That’s about it for his plus qualities as a ball player, those and an ability to play defense adequately at third, first and corner outfield.
 

And to string together good but almost never great seasons for a long time. IIRC per WAR he was never the MVP of his own team in any given year.

 Granted he spent so many of his peak years as a teammate of guys like Bench, F. Robinson, and Morgan, all of whom were on a while other tier of greatness, but also some others like Vada Pinson and George Foster who had monster years while playing with Rose. Throw in the other key cogs in the Big Red Machine like Perez, Griffey and Concepcion and Rose’s inability to be the best in any season is understandable. 
 

What makes people remember him as better than he was was his flamboyantly gritty style that made old school sportswriters involuntarily touch themselves but that many of his fellow players thought was show offy.
 

I think it was Mantle who dubbed him “Charlie Hustle” and it was not meant as a compliment. It was sarcastic, similar to how journalists will dub an overzealous, suck-up colleague as “Johnny Deadline.”

For a guy whose rep hinged on being a team player, he selfishly clung to a job with whoever would take him to not produce at the plate and play a shitty first base for seven years as he chased Cobb’s record.
 

So he’s much closer to Lenny Dykstra than the GOAT. And that extends beyond the diamond, but at least Dykstra never got caught betting on baseball.  And that is the one sin you just can’t commit. 

So while I hate Curt Schilling and believe the Legend of the Bloody Sock is a ridiculous myth to burnish a HoF career with, I believe he amassed stats worthy of the Hall and my distaste for him as a person should not interfere with my thinking on the subject. Same goes for many another asshole who did not bet on baseball. 

 

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I'm conflicted between hating the "protectors of the sanctity of baseball" and their ( justified) reluctance to admit a generational talent who is a sorry ass douchebag of the highest order who happened to break an unbreakable rule.

Fuck baseball purity and fuck Pete Rose.

Put him in on the next class after he dies.

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Macanudo

Macanudo 13004

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Put me in the "Let everyone in who put up the numbers, etc. "  Except Pete Rose.   Fuck that guy.   When he dies, they should put his name over shitter in each bathroom to commemorate how much of a piece of shit he was.   

2 minutes ago, slorch said:

I'm conflicted between hating the "protectors of the sanctity of baseball" and their ( justified) reluctance to admit a generational talent who is a sorry ass douchebag of the highest order who happened to break an unbreakable rule.

Fuck baseball purity and fuck Pete Rose.

Put him in on the next class after he dies.

Except he didn't just break an unbreakable rule.  He broke THE unbreakable rule. 

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Hank Chinaski

Hank Chinaski 6315

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I always liked McGriff. I’m on the fence as to whether I think he actually belongs in the HOF (though I’m glad he got in), but it’s not like a Harold Baines situation or anything.

I guess if he’d hit a few more HRs and gotten to 500, he would have been in years ago; and he’s obviously not any less of a player because of a handful of HRs he didn’t hit. So good for him.

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henrygandorf

henrygandorf 29194

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On 11/13/2022 at 6:47 PM, MaybeACoordinator said:

I hated Rose as a player on teams that were rivals of and better than the Astros, and some “casual fans,” or “idiots” as I prefer to think of them, overrate his resume tremendously. (These are the people who think he was the best player of all time.)

No he was not. He was overrated.
 

The positives: He was an incredible singles hitter and define top-of-the-order pest.
 

That’s about it for his plus qualities as a ball player, those and an ability to play defense adequately at third, first and corner outfield.
 

And to string together good but almost never great seasons for a long time. IIRC per WAR he was never the MVP of his own team in any given year.

 Granted he spent so many of his peak years as a teammate of guys like Bench, F. Robinson, and Morgan, all of whom were on a while other tier of greatness, but also some others like Vada Pinson and George Foster who had monster years while playing with Rose. Throw in the other key cogs in the Big Red Machine like Perez, Griffey and Concepcion and Rose’s inability to be the best in any season is understandable. 
 

What makes people remember him as better than he was was his flamboyantly gritty style that made old school sportswriters involuntarily touch themselves but that many of his fellow players thought was show offy.
 

I think it was Mantle who dubbed him “Charlie Hustle” and it was not meant as a compliment. It was sarcastic, similar to how journalists will dub an overzealous, suck-up colleague as “Johnny Deadline.”

For a guy whose rep hinged on being a team player, he selfishly clung to a job with whoever would take him to not produce at the plate and play a shitty first base for seven years as he chased Cobb’s record.
 

So he’s much closer to Lenny Dykstra than the GOAT. And that extends beyond the diamond, but at least Dykstra never got caught betting on baseball.  And that is the one sin you just can’t commit. 

So while I hate Curt Schilling and believe the Legend of the Bloody Sock is a ridiculous myth to burnish a HoF career with, I believe he amassed stats worthy of the Hall and my distaste for him as a person should not interfere with my thinking on the subject. Same goes for many another asshole who did not bet on baseball. 

 

betting on baseball when you’re a player is unforgivable. he was also a manager. i can’t really imagine a worse scenario. 

fuck him and his autograph lemonade stand in cooperstown. 

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Wulaw Horn

Wulaw Horn 19145

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McGriff always should have been in imo. I am a big shall guy though and generally support 2-3% of the players to be in. That’s what it originally was more or less once things got started and in point and we’ve recently (last 20 or 30 years) gotten to the point where some view iT as a top 1% type of thing. In no world should Harold Baines be in but Crime dog. Definitely fits. I’d also have Tommy John in (almost 300 wins- pioneer of most important surgery in baseball history), Schilling, Bonds, Clemens, Petite (big hall guy), Raffy, Andrew Jones, Dale Murphy in. Don Mattingly wouldn’t irritate me too much if you want to be a literalist with Hall of “fame” as he was about as famous as it got growing up. I’d think Lou Whittaker should have been in a long time ago. I am generally opposed to DH and RP being in the HOF but they are, so if so Billy Wagner should be in I guess.  Todd Helton, Jeff Kent, Manny Ramirez, Kenny Lofton.

Of all those guys though McGriff would have been choice one for me beyond the steroid guys. 

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YGIFS

YGIFS 19452

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5 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

McGriff always should have been in imo. I am a big shall guy though and generally support 2-3% of the players to be in. That’s what it originally was more or less once things got started and in point and we’ve recently (last 20 or 30 years) gotten to the point where some view iT as a top 1% type of thing. In no world should Harold Baines be in but Crime dog. Definitely fits. I’d also have Tommy John in (almost 300 wins- pioneer of most important surgery in baseball history), Schilling, Bonds, Clemens, Petite (big hall guy), Raffy, Andrew Jones, Dale Murphy in. Don Mattingly wouldn’t irritate me too much if you want to be a literalist with Hall of “fame” as he was about as famous as it got growing up. I’d think Lou Whittaker should have been in a long time ago. I am generally opposed to DH and RP being in the HOF but they are, so if so Billy Wagner should be in I guess.  Todd Helton, Jeff Kent, Manny Ramirez, Kenny Lofton.

Of all those guys though McGriff would have been choice one for me beyond the steroid guys. 

You know he didn't actually perform the surgery, right?  It was done, to him.  

With each new class, we slip more and more down the "well, if so-and-so got in...then so should this other guy" rabbit hole.  I don't like it, at all.  But that's where we are, that's how a McGriff gets in.  

Dale Murphy doesn't deserve it.  He was one of a handful of best all-around outfielders from 1980-1987.  That's not a HOF career.  He was above average in the 4 seasons prior, and the 7 seasons after that window.  Damn fine ballplayer, has no business anywhere near Cooperstown.  Mattingly, similar situation.  Fantastic 1b from 1984-1994, probably the best in MLB.  But there's 5 seasons of rather lackluster performance other than the glove.  I'm still a sucker for longevity.  If it's just about who had a great 8-10 year run spread out over 15 years, then open up the floodgates.  

Whitaker should be in though.  That's a fucking crime against the position.  To back to the McGriff deal...if 2b like Mazeroski, Fox, Gordon, et. al. get to be in the Hall, so does Lou.  /rant

The process has changed so dramatically in the last decade...who knows what the fuck will happen by 2040 except middle aged guys like us will have serious fucking issues with it all.  

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Wulaw Horn

Wulaw Horn 19145

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17 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

You know he didn't actually perform the surgery, right?  It was done, to him.  

With each new class, we slip more and more down the "well, if so-and-so got in...then so should this other guy" rabbit hole.  I don't like it, at all.  But that's where we are, that's how a McGriff gets in.  

Dale Murphy doesn't deserve it.  He was one of a handful of best all-around outfielders from 1980-1987.  That's not a HOF career.  He was above average in the 4 seasons prior, and the 7 seasons after that window.  Damn fine ballplayer, has no business anywhere near Cooperstown.  Mattingly, similar situation.  Fantastic 1b from 1984-1994, probably the best in MLB.  But there's 5 seasons of rather lackluster performance other than the glove.  I'm still a sucker for longevity.  If it's just about who had a great 8-10 year run spread out over 15 years, then open up the floodgates.  

Whitaker should be in though.  That's a fucking crime against the position.  To back to the McGriff deal...if 2b like Mazeroski, Fox, Gordon, et. al. get to be in the Hall, so does Lou.  /rant

The process has changed so dramatically in the last decade...who knows what the fuck will happen by 2040 except middle aged guys like us will have serious fucking issues with it all.  

That’s my point- you are arguing for something that the HOF wasn’t until very recently. Read this article- it’s really good. 
 

https://www.mlb.com/news/hall-of-fame-mlb-induction-standards

TL/DR- it used to be about 4-5% of innings pitched and player appearances were made by HOFers. That number has fallen off a cliff. 

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Hank Chinaski

Hank Chinaski 6315

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I’m not a big Hall guy at all. I think top 1-3% is about right. I think we have enough statistical/evaluative savvy at this point to determine player value and set soft thresholds that can serve as a general guide (Jaffe’s is good IMO).

Of the guys mentioned here, I’d say no to Mattingly (only 4 very good seasons) or Murphy (good peak but not much value outside of 5/6 seasons). I could be talked into Kent, Pettite, Wagner, Sweet Lou and Andruw (would put McGriff in this group). I’d say yes to Lofton, Helton.

On the PED guys, that just seems like a different conversation because it isn’t about the numbers anymore. I’d say yes to Bonds and Clemens (because they never actually failed a test and were light years better than their peers) and no to Palmeiro and Manny (because they failed tests and weren’t light years better than their peers).

I’d say no to Schilling because he is a petulant, unlikable dipshit that doesn’t know how to shut the fuck up. (I’d actually vote for him, begrudgingly.)

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Wulaw Horn

Wulaw Horn 19145

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22 hours ago, Hank Chinaski said:

I’m not a big Hall guy at all. I think top 1-3% is about right. I think we have enough statistical/evaluative savvy at this point to determine player value and set soft thresholds that can serve as a general guide (Jaffe’s is good IMO).

Of the guys mentioned here, I’d say no to Mattingly (only 4 very good seasons) or Murphy (good peak but not much value outside of 5/6 seasons). I could be talked into Kent, Pettite, Wagner, Sweet Lou and Andruw (would put McGriff in this group). I’d say yes to Lofton, Helton.

On the PED guys, that just seems like a different conversation because it isn’t about the numbers anymore. I’d say yes to Bonds and Clemens (because they never actually failed a test and were light years better than their peers) and no to Palmeiro and Manny (because they failed tests and weren’t light years better than their peers).

I’d say no to Schilling because he is a petulant, unlikable dipshit that doesn’t know how to shut the fuck up. (I’d actually vote for him, begrudgingly.)

If you are ok with 3% in that makes you a big hall guy. We are at 1.5% and that’s grossly misleading as there is so much roster churn now compared to back in the day. It’s actually probably getting closer to sub 1 if you control for the jags. 
i guess I just think it’s sort of absurd for the hall to be so exclusive now that only about 8 players at a time are allowed in, when if you look at the guys that played in the 50’s and 60’s so many more of them got in by percentage. 

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Hank Chinaski

Hank Chinaski 6315

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37 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

If you are ok with 3% in that makes you a big hall guy. We are at 1.5% and that’s grossly misleading as there is so much roster churn now compared to back in the day. It’s actually probably getting closer to sub 1 if you control for the jags. 
i guess I just think it’s sort of absurd for the hall to be so exclusive now that only about 8 players at a time are allowed in, when if you look at the guys that played in the 50’s and 60’s so many more of them got in by percentage. 

Oh gotcha…I don’t know what the %s are, I thought we meant that 1-3% of active players at any given point in time are HOFers. That sounds about right to me, but I didn’t look at the numbers to determine what that actually means or use it to imply any sort of precision. In sum, I was talking out of my ass. Truth be told, I’m probably a “medium hall” guy.

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