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2023 Hall of Fame thread

Beau Vine

By Beau Vine
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cochamps

cochamps 1879

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On 12/6/2022 at 8:44 AM, Cheeseweasel said:

Bonds, Rocket.

I don't get the Crime Dog love. He averaged 26 HR's per year, never won an MVP/ ROTY. Solid player, but not HOF material.

What an unusual metric to use.  To put this into context, Babe Ruth only averaged 32 HR's per year.   ROTY seems like a footnote also.  JMO.

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BehoId, The Underminer!

BehoId, The Underminer! 11669

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On 11/13/2022 at 8:47 PM, MaybeACoordinator said:

I hated Rose as a player on teams that were rivals of and better than the Astros, and some “casual fans,” or “idiots” as I prefer to think of them, overrate his resume tremendously. (These are the people who think he was the best player of all time.)

No he was not. He was overrated.
 

The positives: He was an incredible singles hitter and define top-of-the-order pest.
 

That’s about it for his plus qualities as a ball player, those and an ability to play defense adequately at third, first and corner outfield.
 

And to string together good but almost never great seasons for a long time. IIRC per WAR he was never the MVP of his own team in any given year.

 Granted he spent so many of his peak years as a teammate of guys like Bench, F. Robinson, and Morgan, all of whom were on a while other tier of greatness, but also some others like Vada Pinson and George Foster who had monster years while playing with Rose. Throw in the other key cogs in the Big Red Machine like Perez, Griffey and Concepcion and Rose’s inability to be the best in any season is understandable. 
 

What makes people remember him as better than he was was his flamboyantly gritty style that made old school sportswriters involuntarily touch themselves but that many of his fellow players thought was show offy.
 

I think it was Mantle who dubbed him “Charlie Hustle” and it was not meant as a compliment. It was sarcastic, similar to how journalists will dub an overzealous, suck-up colleague as “Johnny Deadline.”

For a guy whose rep hinged on being a team player, he selfishly clung to a job with whoever would take him to not produce at the plate and play a shitty first base for seven years as he chased Cobb’s record.
 

So he’s much closer to Lenny Dykstra than the GOAT. And that extends beyond the diamond, but at least Dykstra never got caught betting on baseball.  And that is the one sin you just can’t commit. 

So while I hate Curt Schilling and believe the Legend of the Bloody Sock is a ridiculous myth to burnish a HoF career with, I believe he amassed stats worthy of the Hall and my distaste for him as a person should not interfere with my thinking on the subject. Same goes for many another asshole who did not bet on baseball. 

 

Arguing Rose shouldn’t go in because of gambling: fine.  
 

Arguing Rose shouldn’t go in because of his level of play didn’t justify it?  The hit king? 

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MaybeACoordinator

MaybeACoordinator 8349

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2 hours ago, BehoId, The Underminer! said:

Arguing Rose shouldn’t go in because of gambling: fine.  
 

Arguing Rose shouldn’t go in because of his level of play didn’t justify it?  The hit king? 

That wasn't my argument. I was saying he was very overrated, in that some mentally challenged fans equate racking up the most hits with being the greatest. ballplayer of all time. He was almost never the greatest ballplayer on his team at any given moment. 

There's this very good friend of mine with an ordinarily solid baseball mind who insists that Nolan Ryan was the greatest pitcher of all time because he had the most strikeouts. (I think it has more to do with my friend being an Astro Buddy back when Nolie was in his prime....It's created a blind spot in his logic.)

It's pretty much the same as the Rose thing, but at least Ryan didn't hang around seven years too long chasing his record the way Rose did.

 

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Hornius Emeritus

Hornius Emeritus 12481

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1 hour ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

That wasn't my argument. I was saying he was very overrated, in that some mentally challenged fans equate racking up the most hits with being the greatest. ballplayer of all time. He was almost never the greatest ballplayer on his team at any given moment. 

There's this very good friend of mine with an ordinarily solid baseball mind who insists that Nolan Ryan was the greatest pitcher of all time because he had the most strikeouts. (I think it has more to do with my friend being an Astro Buddy back when Nolie was in his prime....It's created a blind spot in his logic.)

It's pretty much the same as the Rose thing, but at least Ryan didn't hang around seven years too long chasing his record the way Rose did.

 



I think you're tilting at imagined windmills here.

Is there one person on the planet who has ever argued that Rose is the greatest ballplayer of all time?

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MaybeACoordinator

MaybeACoordinator 8349

Posted
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48 minutes ago, Hornius Emeritus said:



I think you're tilting at imagined windmills here.

Is there one person on the planet who has ever argued that Rose is the greatest ballplayer of all time?

Quote

Rose can certainly be mentioned in the same breath as the top MLB players ever. He finished his career with 4,256 hits and a .303 batting average.

no he can't

 

Quote

The man who went by the nickname of “Charlie Hustle” dominated the MLB from 1963-1986.

 

no he didn't

 

Quote

Pete Rose was the greatest baseball player to ever play the game. That isn’t an opinion, that is an established fact.

no he wasn't.

 

While only one of those states the case explicitly, all wildly overrate Rose's value and this comes from a quick Google and draws from actual articles, some from shadier sites than others.

The sentiment is far more common coming from the Mouthbreather Brigade in comments sections, and while it does seem to be dying down as the years go by. And yet you still have people saying Rose was comparable in greatness to Albert Pujols. Would you trade prime Rose for prime Pujols? Or even their careers? 

Edited by MaybeACoordinator
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uoftorange

uoftorange 1387

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18 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

no he can't

Look, I hate Rose and hope he rots outside the hall as much as anyone I know.  But his numbers undoubtedly warrant him as a top 30 hitter all time.  Yes he chased records, so did Biggio, who I love and absolutely is underrated in the All Time 2B pantheon.  

By pretty much every HofF hitting algorithm he's at the top.  5th all time LF in JAWS, 15th in the Hall of Fame Monitor, 19th in Black ink and 35th in Grey ink.  Even if we go with Grey Ink, top 35 is in the "same breadth" as the greatest hitters ever

Pujols is ranked slightly higher in some and slightly lower in others but they are basically around the same level in these Monitors.  

Edited by uoftorange
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Hornius Emeritus

Hornius Emeritus 12481

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1 hour ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

no he can't

 

 

no he didn't

 

no he wasn't.

 

While only one of those states the case explicitly, all wildly overrate Rose's value and this comes from a quick Google and draws from actual articles, some from shadier sites than others.

The sentiment is far more common coming from the Mouthbreather Brigade in comments sections, and while it does seem to be dying down as the years go by. And yet you still have people saying Rose was comparable in greatness to Albert Pujols. Would you trade prime Rose for prime Pujols? Or even their careers? 


You got me. There's some guy who nobody ever heard of that says  he was the greatest player of all time.

ESPN has him ranked # 34.

Baseball America has him ranked # 33.

That sounds about right and certainly places him "among" the greatest players of all time.

 

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MaybeACoordinator

MaybeACoordinator 8349

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15 hours ago, uoftorange said:

Look, I hate Rose and hope he rots outside the hall as much as anyone I know.  But his numbers undoubtedly warrant him as a top 30 hitter all time.  Yes he chased records, so did Biggio, who I love and absolutely is underrated in the All Time 2B pantheon.  

By pretty much every HofF hitting algorithm he's at the top.  5th all time LF in JAWS, 15th in the Hall of Fame Monitor, 19th in Black ink and 35th in Grey ink.  Even if we go with Grey Ink, top 35 is in the "same breadth" as the greatest hitters ever

Pujols is ranked slightly higher in some and slightly lower in others but they are basically around the same level in these Monitors.  

I saw both Rose and Pujols at or near their primes. Rose was a nuisance. Pujols was the most feared batter in the league. He devoured souls. Literally, as with Brad Lidge.

At their peaks Pujols was an order of magnitude better than Rose.

As for career WAR I almost believe that formula was changed expressly to rank Rose much higher than he once was. I had a bound copy of the Baseball Encyclopedia from around 1996 and it had his career WAR in the 20s, down around Glenn Hubbard, that Atlanta 2b who looked like a hobbit. I remember Bill James, no Rose fan, commenting on how much it underrated Rose, and overrated Hubbard, who was ahead of Rose due to ungodly fielding stats stemming from huge assist totals he amassed via Atlanta's pitching staff of groundball experts.  

So no, Rose was much better than Hubbard and I am glad the formula was adjusted (if that was the case) to reflect that. But ultimately Rose ranks high in stats weighted toward compilation but his rates were...not great. His career OPS+ was tied for 411th all time. Career BA of .303 was 172nd. 

 

13 hours ago, Hornius Emeritus said:


You got me. There's some guy who nobody ever heard of that says  he was the greatest player of all time.

ESPN has him ranked # 34.

Baseball America has him ranked # 33.

That sounds about right and certainly places him "among" the greatest players of all time.

 

I still think he's bottom 25-33 percent of the top 100, if that. As a leadoff man, he was no Rickey Henderson by any stretch of the imagination, scoring 130 fewer runs in 2500 fewer plate appearances. Okay, well, Rickey was the greatest leadoff man of all-time -- it's not fair to hold Rose up to that standard. Is it not?

And how many years was Rose the best player on his team? By my count, once, barely over Vada Pinson (having his career year in his early 20s), in 1965. And yes, some might say that's unfair because Rose played with so many greats, but again that makes my point -- he was a tier below Morgan, Frank Robinson, and arguably Bench with the Reds, Schmidt and Carlton with the Phils. I'll just pass over his stints in Montreal and the Reds homecoming during which he should not have been on the field at all.

This is a complicated and nuanced case made moot to me by the gambling. He's irrevocably out because of that.

But if he'd never gambled and I was a Hall of Fame voter, I'd have thought long and hard about putting him on the first ballot, hit king or not. It would depend on his competition in any given year. I'd vote for him some years and not others but all along believe he should make it in eventually. 

Okay, and now looking at the HOF class of '91, which would have been Rose's first year of eligibility, I probably would have voted for him over either Fergie Jenkins or Gaylord Perry. I would have ranked Carew ahead of him. And so Rose would have been a first ballot Hall of Famer and I would have assisted, but it is possible to be a first balloter and a little bit overrated -- see Jeter, Derek. He was a legit first ballot guy but also overpraised.

One last thing -- in one of those articles I found, the writer stated that Rose's hits record was unassailable. First, you never know. All of us who grew up in the '70s and '80s once thought the same about Gehrig's streak. And there are some big records that almost certainly will never be broken, like Cy Young's 511 wins. The game has changed too much. 

But 4156 hits? Shit, give Ichiro five or six more years in his twenties at the MLB level and that record would easily have fallen, esp if Ichiro was granted seven years of mediocrity at the end of his career to chase it.  

 

Edited by MaybeACoordinator
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uoftorange

uoftorange 1387

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Would I rather have HGH Pujols or Hustle Rose?  100% I'd rather have Pujols despite hating him too.   But the numbers are the numbers.  Pujols is better, doesn't stop what you were saying being incorrect.  You said he wasn't in the conversation of the greatest hitters ever.  That's kind of absurd and been proven to be incorrect via all the stats.

If you had said he couldn't be considered among the greatest power hitters, you'd absolutely be correct.  You'd be correct if you said that about Tony Gwynn too.  But if you said he wasn't among the greatest hitters ever, thems would be fighting words.  Same goes for Rose, except I hate him, so no fight would be needed haha

 

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uoftorange

uoftorange 1387

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And if Rose had been "eligible" (he was and still is) he would have been a first ballot with maybe 1-10 at most voters abstaining, because voters are idiots.  You are either a hall of famer or you aren't.  Waiting a year is the stupidest thing ever.  Same with the six pieces of shit that didn't vote Nolan Ryan in on the first ballot.  

The Hall of Fame isn't the "Hall of greatest ever", it's the Hall of FAME.  If you can't tell the story of baseball without a player, they belong in.  You can't tell the story of baseball without Rose. Same goes for Clemens and Bonds.  Can't stand Rose, personally love that he's out.  Doesn't change that he belongs in by his on field merits.

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Beau Vine

Beau Vine 54381

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23 hours ago, Hornius Emeritus said:

Is there one person on the planet who has ever argued that Rose is the greatest ballplayer of all time?

I remember arguing with someone on Shaggy who insisted Rose was the greatest player because he had the most hits.  

I asked him if he thought Johnny Damon and Bill Buckner were better than Ted Williams because they had more hits, and he said something like, "I see what you're trying to do, but you're not going to change my mind."  

To be fair, this guy also thought the Black Sox were innocent.  

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Beau Vine

Beau Vine 54381

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2 hours ago, uoftorange said:

The Hall of Fame isn't the "Hall of greatest ever", it's the Hall of FAME.  If you can't tell the story of baseball without a player, they belong in.  You can't tell the story of baseball without Rose. Same goes for Clemens and Bonds.  Can't stand Rose, personally love that he's out.  Doesn't change that he belongs in by his on field merits.

Have you ever actually been to the HoF?  It really doesn't sound like it, because you can learn about all three of those guys in the Hall of Fame.  

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uoftorange

uoftorange 1387

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

Have you ever actually been to the HoF?  It really doesn't sound like it, because you can learn about all three of those guys in the Hall of Fame.  

Yep, about 10 times.  I'm not sure why you thought that was a burn, or needed to be said that way, but alright...  

And it's exactly that idiotic hypocrisy I'm talking about.  All of those guys are shown, and it's pathetic and stupid to not have them be inducted as what they are, Hall of Famers

Edited by uoftorange
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YGIFS

YGIFS 19452

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Didn't realize this  was Kent's last one of the standard ballot.  Next year will be Sheffield's last one.  With Rolen and Wagner the most likely get in, IMHO.  

I'm guessing Beltre and Mauer make the biggest splash of first year contenders.  Although I didn't realize Mauer played just as many games at 1b/DH as he did at catcher (making the switch at only age 29)...that may hurt him a bit. 

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dcar00

dcar00 14344

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On 12/17/2022 at 3:45 PM, Hornius Emeritus said:


You got me. There's some guy who nobody ever heard of that says  he was the greatest player of all time.

ESPN has him ranked # 34.

Baseball America has him ranked # 33.

That sounds about right and certainly places him "among" the greatest players of all time.

 

Rose gets some bonus points for his versatility in the field and longevity. He wasn't a "great" fielder but won a couple of GG's. guy was RoY and an MVP. was top 10 in MVP voting 9 times.  won 3 batting titles. played in 6 World Series.  yes he hung around a couple of years too long to chase Cobb but he's top 50 for sure.  

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Wulaw Horn

Wulaw Horn 19147

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Posted (edited)
On 1/10/2023 at 7:37 PM, Beau Vine said:

Holy shit, look at the 2015 HoF ballot:

image.png.231e8241ed196d0d44df83876a3c28dd.png

I’d argue the entire top 19 should be in. Shillong and Kent are only out because they are assholes and baseball writers are petty. The other guys are all clear HOF with steroid stink keeping them out. Seeing as we likely already have at least a dozen users in the hall it seems like a fools errand trying to parse it out. 

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uoftorange

uoftorange 1387

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23 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I’d argue the entire top 19 should be in. Shillong and Kent are only out because they are assholes and baseball writers are petty. The other guys are all clear HOF with steroid stink keeping them out. Seeing as we likely already have at least a dozen users in the hall it seems like a fools errand trying to parse it out. 

I'd argue top 20, only because I despise the Yankees, and still liked Donnie baseball.

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Wulaw Horn

Wulaw Horn 19147

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3 hours ago, Scraps said:

So Rolen. Thats it

This year. Helton and Wagner reached definitely going to happen eventually no doubt about it status with their jumps this year. Beltran staring out at almost 50% says he gets there someday too. 
That’s it I think for writers selection. Kent going to get in back door. 

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uoftorange

uoftorange 1387

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So Rolen, who was amazing defensively, and pretty damn good with the bat got 10% of the vote the first year.  Go look at the stats, he was way better than Jeter on defense and a similar player on offense (counting numbers favor Jeter, especially hits, but advanced metrics don't).  Now they played different positions, and Jeter was a Yankee.  Obviously Jeter is a HofFamer, but 10% vs. 1 vote shy of unanimous?  It makes no sense.
 

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