Air Show Plane Crash in Dallas

[Chad Fuck 17670]

11 minutes ago, tokamak said:

Texas Raiders was one of about 10ish airworthy B-17s left, I think.

There's only about 6 that are actively flying.  A couple more that are sometimes claimed as  "airworthy" but haven't been flying in a while (one in France, the "Movie" Memphis Belle) fall into this category. 

Sally B is in the UK.  In the US there's Yankee Lady (Yankee Air Museum); Thunderbird (MAAM); Sentimental Journey (CAF); Ye Olde Pub (Erickson Museum); Aluminum Overcast (EAA)

That's it.  

[Chad Fuck 17670]

5 minutes ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

The guy flying the P-63 had over 34,000 hours of flight time.  He performs formation flying all of the time with Tora, Tora, Tora.  He appears to have fucked up badly.  I would not blame it on a proficiency in aircraft model issue.  From one thing that I have read I think he was supposed to join up with the B-17. 

That happened so fast that the airboss couldn't have prevented it.  

Any idea of the time he had in the P-63F?  I haven't seen anything about that yet. 

 

[CycleTex87 2967]

I'll say this, the accident happened and it's tragic.  I'll also say that every participant in the event would have stacked hands before the event and swear on a stack of bibles that it was totally safe and professionally run.  Somehow something went wrong, and it needs to be sorted out. 

I've seen this same show many times at Wings Over Houston at Ellington, as well as other places around the state and it's amazing the number of planes in the sky, there's never not a plane in front of the crowd during the show.  I saw it two weeks ago, walked around both the P63 and the B17, chatted with the crews, and enjoyed watching/listening to the big iron flying.  Sad to see these videos.  Lives and equipment gone forever.  

[Saint Tacky 1614]

We drove down to Harlingen every summer to see the Confederate Air Force Airshow before they moved it to Midland and changed the name. I’ve always been a fanboy of WW2 vintage planes. 

20 hours ago, tx 3 putt said:

they sell rides on the B-17's, I'm wondering if they had any riders ?

I’ve flown in a B-17. It was a great experience, but I wouldn’t do it again. I was so happy to have my feet firmly back on the ground. I knew it would be loud aboard, but I could not believe how loud it actually was. It was even difficult to hear the comms through the headset. It was also a physical beating. I imagine akin to trying to stand on a rollercoaster. But, I’m still more in awe of the guts it took to jump in those bombers and fly over the Reich every day and in broad daylight. 

[CHIEF 5079]

8 minutes ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

The guy flying the P-63 had over 34,000 hours of flight time.  He performs formation flying all of the time with Tora, Tora, Tora.  He appears to have fucked up badly.  I would not blame it on a proficiency in aircraft model issue.  From one thing that I have read I think he was supposed to join up with the B-17. 

That happened so fast that the airboss couldn't have prevented it.  

But how much of that 34,000 hours were in the P-63? I have that many hours in a pickup truck, but not a Shelby Cobra. It's the familiarity/proficiency. To join up with that B-17 he would have had to have known he was there, and be running about 100 mph slower. The Tora Tora Tora planes are T-6s, they maintain formation, and everyone steps back out of their way. T-6s are a dime a dozen, it is the F150 of airshows, a 230 mph plane. This was the only P-63F in existence.

CHIEF

[Leeroy Jenkins 2402]

12 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

Any idea of the time he had in the P-63F?  I haven't seen anything about that yet. 

 

No but he has an ass load of time on low wing planes like it.  

[Leeroy Jenkins 2402]

1 minute ago, CHIEF said:

But how much of that 34,000 hours were in the P-63? I have that many hours in a pickup truck, but not a Shelby Cobra. It's the familiarity/proficiency. To join up with that B-17 he would have had to have known he was there, and be running about 100 mph slower. The Tora Tora Tora planes are T-6s, they maintain formation, and everyone steps back out of their way. T-6s are a dime a dozen, it is the F150 of airshows, a 230 mph plane. This was the only P-63F in existence.

CHIEF

Ok you are obviously correct and know it all.  How many hours do you have in a plane?  How about flying formation?   

[CycleTex87 2967]

Some guys in my town growing up had a B25 that they flew around to airshows and such.  My dad and I were supposed to go for a ride in it, but shit didn't work out, and we were late, but got there in time to see it takeoff right beside us.  Loud AF.  A few years later, they crash landed the plane short of the runway, everybody was able to walk away, which they did, leaving the plane in a field.  Rumor was they had come back from a airshow, and maybe had had a few cocktails as well, and needed to not talk to the FAA right away.  

[CHIEF 5079]

16 minutes ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

Ok you are obviously correct and know it all.  How many hours do you have in a plane?  How about flying formation?   

Sorry to have struck a nerve. Didn't mean to come across that way. For four years I was with my boss at airshows in Abilene, Breckenridge, and Waco. I witnessed Don Knapp's fatal P-51D crash (faulty fuel gage) I have about 400 hours with about 60 or so in formation (following my boss from an airport where he had purchased a broke down piece of shit plane for peanuts). 

I have flown a Cherokee 140 with no interior while sitting on a five gallon bucket.

I have flown a Bonanza (not even type rated) where we aired up the flat, weather cracked tires, and a windshield that had so many micro-fractures that I could nearly see him in front of me a thousand foot.

He talked me into some stupid shit. His excuse? I have a family, and you need the seat time.

Shit got real and extreme changes came after 9/11. I haven't piloted a private plane since. Clifton was close enough to Crawford (George Bush Jr. Ranch) that it wasn't worth getting escorted by F-16s to the nearest airport and footing the bill for the scramble. Our crop-duster's business was shut down, things just got crazy.

CHIEF

Edited November 14, 2022 by CHIEF

[Chad Fuck 17670]

8 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

Sorry to have struck a nerve. Didn't mean to come across that way. For four years I was with my boss at airshows in Abilene, Breckenridge, and Waco. I witnessed Don Knapp's fatal P-51D crash (faulty fuel gage) I have about 400 hours with about 60 or so in formation (following my boss from an airport where he had purchased a broke down piece of shit plane for peanuts). 

I have flown a Cherokee 140 with no interior while sitting on a five gallon bucket.

I have flown a Bonanza (not even type rated) where we aired up the flat, weather cracked tires, and a windshield that had so many micro-fractures that I could nearly see him in front of me a thousand foot.

He talked me into some stupid shit. His excuse? I have a family, and you need the seat time.

Shit got real and extreme changes came after 9/11. I haven't piloted a private plane since. Clifton was close enough to Crawford (George Bush Jr. Ranch) that it wasn't worth getting escorted by F-16s to the nearest airport and footing the bill for the scramble. Our crop-duster's business was shut down, things just got crazy.

CHIEF

Your boss sounds like an asshole who made bad decisions.

 

[CHIEF 5079]

11 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

Your boss sounds like an asshole who made bad decisions.

 

CHIEF

[TexPx 2323]

Sis in law took this pic of TR in Waco 2017. She’s been flying a Pitts in air shows for a long time and did several shows with the pilots.
B.I.L. was going for a ride in TR when this was taken.

[NaTeWHO 852]

5 hours ago, conVINCEd said:

I need to correct myself.  I looked it up because I was curious, and my memory failed me.  He didn’t die in the accident, but survived despite suffering burns over 80% of his body and being in a coma for several months.  I didn’t know the man well, and I guess I just assumed he died after hearing about it 30 years ago.  He was a Longhorn as well, so hook’em Dr. Foster and thanks for taking me up in your balloon 40ish years ago.
 

https://www.nationalballoonmuseum.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Coy-Foster-2020-HOF-.pdf

My Great Uncle Max died in a balloon crash. Also first to cross the Atlantic in a balloon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxie_Anderson

['stache 21802]

3 hours ago, CHIEF said:

I bet ol' Orville shit his pants when his Wright Flyer actually left the ground. WWI fighter pilots didn't have parachutes, and a life expectancy of just a few weeks. A whole different mindset. Dying famously seemed like the trend at the time, going out in a blaze of glory doing what you loved.

Here, again, you have a Commerative or a collective of guys with pockets not deep enough. They do, it purely out of passion. But passion alone isn't safe enough. The plane can't be flown often enough to keep the pilot proficient. It's like being accurate with a rifle at 600 yards, it takes practice, you can't maintain that accuracy only shooting 5-6 shots a year.

CHIEF

I know almost nothing about planes, but it always shocks me when planes collide in 3 dimensional space. With this understanding, why are these planes even anywhere close to the same vicinity? Why not just have one fly at a time, or have them so far apart that this isn't even a possibility? I truly have no understanding. The video is extraordinary fodder for conspiracy theorists. It honestly looks intentional, there is only one point in the entire sky that this could happen, and the smaller plane just goes directly into the other. Again my know nothing ass would think it would take practice to time it right for that type of intentional collision and that the odds of it happening accidentally are astronomically low. I know it wasn't intentional and that my thoughts are wrong, but it's just difficult to comprehend. Again, why can they not fly individually instead of at the same time if this is even a remote possibility?

Edited November 14, 2022 by 'stache

[faps 806]

Must've been cold out that day.

[Macanudo 12976]

2 hours ago, CycleTex87 said:

I'll say this, the accident happened and it's tragic.  I'll also say that every participant in the event would have stacked hands before the event and swear on a stack of bibles that it was totally safe and professionally run.  Somehow something went wrong, and it needs to be sorted out. 

I've seen this same show many times at Wings Over Houston at Ellington, as well as other places around the state and it's amazing the number of planes in the sky, there's never not a plane in front of the crowd during the show.  I saw it two weeks ago, walked around both the P63 and the B17, chatted with the crews, and enjoyed watching/listening to the big iron flying.  Sad to see these videos.  Lives and equipment gone forever.  

Terrible loss for everyone.

[Cousin Strawberry 1261]

2 hours ago, Saint Tacky said:

We drove down to Harlingen every summer to see the Confederate Air Force Airshow before they moved it to Midland and changed the name. I’ve always been a fanboy of WW2 vintage planes. 

I’ve flown in a B-17. It was a great experience, but I wouldn’t do it again. I was so happy to have my feet firmly back on the ground. I knew it would be loud aboard, but I could not believe how loud it actually was. It was even difficult to hear the comms through the headset. It was also a physical beating. I imagine akin to trying to stand on a rollercoaster. But, I’m still more in awe of the guts it took to jump in those bombers and fly over the Reich every day and in broad daylight. 

'Sluggish..like a wet sponge'

[Brisketexan 105095]

20 minutes ago, 'stache said:

I know almost nothing about planes, but it always shocks me when planes collide in 3 dimensional space.

Not nearly as surprising as when they supply in 2 dimensional space.  I guess they could be piloted by Flat Stanley....

[Nice Guy Eddie 13510]

This was the view that made me question why in the world was the smaller plane anywhere near the larger one.  It looks like several planes were behind the B-17 in some flyby but the P-63 may have been on a separate line but swung why too outside. Were there 2 formations (rows?)  of flybys at the same time?

 

 

[Herbie Hancock 7345]

CSB - I was at an opening day dove hunting event around Breckinridge in the early 80's back during the oil boom.  Totally cool shindig, pickups bringing beer and BBQ around the field during the hunt, a dance with a country band that night, and Howard Pardue flying around doing acrobatics over the field in a F4U Corsair. /CSB

CSB, I was on this one

https://ktxs.com/amp/archive/pilot-sustains-critical-injuries-in-breckenridge-plane-crash-is-flown-to-dfw-hospital2

We were later told that the pilot had been in something like a dozen plane crashes before this one. All vintage military planes.

[Brisketexan 105095]

11 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

This was the view that made me question why in the world was the smaller plane anywhere near the larger one.  It looks like several planes were behind the B-17 in some flyby but the P-63 may have been on a separate line but swung why too outside. Were there 2 formations (rows?)  of flybys at the same time?

 

 

That angle shows that when the P63 pilot started his descending bank left, the B-17 was BEHIND his field of vision.  I suspect that he didn't look right/down, or when he did, his view of the B-17 was blocked by his right wing, before he started his descending bank.  The point is, because of the blind spot caused by his wing, and because of their relative positions and speed at the moment that he started his turn, the P63 pilot never saw the B-17.

[Chad Fuck 17670]

1 hour ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

This was the view that made me question why in the world was the smaller plane anywhere near the larger one.  It looks like several planes were behind the B-17 in some flyby but the P-63 may have been on a separate line but swung why too outside. Were there 2 formations (rows?)  of flybys at the same time?

 

 

This is what I was talking about upthread re different lanes, horizontal/vertical/time spacing.  From this vantage point, you're looking obliquely into at least two lanes of air traffic on a gentle left curve to fly straight down the runway line.  You can see the spacing on all axes, and the timed spacing in the lanes.   To the viewers left is the bomber/heavy lane.  To the right of viewer is the smaller aircraft lane (at 0:07, you can see a smaller plane pass through this space).  It is apparent how far out of position the P-63 was when viewed with the other aircraft in the stream.  

[DaysOff 7947]

Are there part 91 waivers to perform at air shows? Seems like there'd have to be.

[Leeroy Jenkins 2402]

2 minutes ago, DaysOff said:

Are there part 91 waivers to perform at air shows? Seems like there'd have to be.

Yes.  What they do if pretty coordinated.  I have sat in a multiple safety briefs and they usually do the same basic show over and over at different locations.  I think this was simple pilot error by the P-63 pilot.  

[High Plains Drifter 11035]

3 hours ago, 'stache said:

I know almost nothing about planes, but it always shocks me when planes collide in 3 dimensional space. With this understanding, why are these planes even anywhere close to the same vicinity? Why not just have one fly at a time, or have them so far apart that this isn't even a possibility? I truly have no understanding. The video is extraordinary fodder for conspiracy theorists. It honestly looks intentional, there is only one point in the entire sky that this could happen, and the smaller plane just goes directly into the other. Again my know nothing ass would think it would take practice to time it right for that type of intentional collision and that the odds of it happening accidentally are astronomically low. I know it wasn't intentional and that my thoughts are wrong, but it's just difficult to comprehend. Again, why can they not fly individually instead of at the same time if this is even a remote possibility?

 

Actually, they collided in four dimensional space-time. They occupied the same x,y,z coordinates at the same instant in time.

 

[Brisketexan 105095]

29 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

Actually, they collided in four dimensional space-time. They occupied the same x,y,z coordinates at the same instant in time.

 

Duuuuuude......

 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13510]

2 hours ago, Chad Fuck said:

This is what I was talking about upthread re different lanes, horizontal/vertical/time spacing.  From this vantage point, you're looking obliquely into at least two lanes of air traffic on a gentle left curve to fly straight down the runway line.  You can see the spacing on all axes, and the timed spacing in the lanes.   To the viewers left is the bomber/heavy lane.  To the right of viewer is the smaller aircraft lane (at 0:07, you can see a smaller plane pass through this space).  It is apparent how far out of position the P-63 was when viewed with the other aircraft in the stream.  

This guys agrees with you. https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRQ8yUEc/

[PRONG HORN 3141]

I hope there’s enough information left to determine if there was a potential health emergency.  

[lemonlime 5503]

This is long, but seems like a really good explanation of what happened.

 

 

[GringoSalado 1651]

Beat me to it, start here for tldw

 

[Chad Fuck 17670]

This is long, but seems like a really good explanation of what happened.
 
 

This is a good video. I’m shocked that there wasn’t more vertical separation between the fighters and bombers.

[bschoolprof 6252]

another video from a channel I follow. Former flight leader for the USAF thunderbirds.  

 

[Chad Fuck 17670]

46 minutes ago, bschoolprof said:

another video from a channel I follow. Former flight leader for the USAF thunderbirds.  

 

Two of the factors he mentioned - recency and frequency - came to mind in a context we hadn't talked about here but will likely come up.  The weather on Thursday was ok, but the weather on Friday was abysmal.  No one was flying these old planes in that mess.  So I wonder how recently the P-63 had flown his patterns for the parade.  

[Beau Vine 54211]

On 11/14/2022 at 8:28 AM, CHIEF said:

Thats the thing, this is 75 year old "cutting edge" technology. Basically flathead Fords going 450 mph. It is getting tougher and tougher to source parts, so mechanics and machinists are having to repair broken parts manually (welding, duck tape, remachining taking off material thickness). But the biggest problem, is the operating costs. These planes were designed to fly on 100/150 AV gas, they weren't designed to fly on 100LL, but 100LL will work at lower power at lower altitudes. 100LL fouls the plugs horribly, the plugs need to be cleaned after a 6-8 hours of flight.  We had a crop duster at our FBO that used an AgCat with an O-650 P&W (single row), built in 1943. I cleaned his plugs every other day during spraying season. Also, the 100LL was bad on the brass valve seats. We eventually had a machinist make some out of billet nickel for extra hardness.

Considering this, and the cost of 100LL, pilots can only afford to fly them a couple of hours a month. There is no way to maintain proficiency at the controls. You do not have the US government providing unlimited fuel and a sea of mechanics to maintain these aircraft, they are too cost prohibitive.

CHIEF

[TwiceHorn 31450]

Many moons ago, at various airshows I attended as a kid with piston-engine warbirds, they ran em a lot closer to WOT than they do at these airshows these days, for the reasons Chief cited.

Back in the day, a bigass 18-cyl radial or inverted V-12 would rattle your guts in addition to hurting your ears like a jet.

If and when you experienced that, it added a dimension to all the WWII movies as to just how loud and terrifying being attacked by low level prop planes must have been.

[Guest]

NTSB B-Roll of the crash scene:
 

 

[Chad Fuck 17670]

NTSB pre-lim report out:

 

https://interactive.wfaa.com/pdfs/Report_CEN23MA034_106276_11_30_2022-2_31_45-PM.pdf

 

[elfenix 34230]

4 hours ago, Chad Fuck said:

NTSB pre-lim report out:

 

https://interactive.wfaa.com/pdfs/Report_CEN23MA034_106276_11_30_2022-2_31_45-PM.pdf

 

Quote

According to the recorded audio for the airshow radio transmissions and Automatic
Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) data, the air boss directed both formations to
maneuver southwest of the runway before returning to the flying display area, which was the
designated performance area. He directed the fighter formation to transition to a trail
formation, fly in front of the bomber formation, and proceed near the 500 ft show line. The
bombers were directed to fly down the 1,000 ft show line. The 500 ft show line and 1,000 ft
show line were 500 ft and 1,000 ft respectively from the airshow viewing line behind which the
audience viewed the airshow.

P-63 was directed to fly closer to the viewers so had to cut in front of the bomber group?

[bschoolprof 6252]

 

[Chad Fuck 17670]

10 minutes ago, elfenix said:

P-63 was directed to fly closer to the viewers so had to cut in front of the bomber group?

That's what it sounds like, but it feels like something is missing there.  That doesn't correspond to some of the ADS-B tracking that was shown in some of the early videos. It goes on to say there was no discussion of vertical separation.  So the way I read it, the fighter stream was crossing the bomber stream twice at the same altitude and different speeds between them.  That is bad bad bad.  

Still, I will await the final report.  

[Chad Fuck 17670]

11 minutes ago, bschoolprof said:

 

This is a good video.