Air Show Plane Crash in Dallas

[Nice Guy Eddie 13742]

I have mixed feelings about these air shows. I think they’re great for people who are entertained or educated about aircraft especially historic aircraft. But air shows shouldn’t be allowed to continue unless they can individually show that they’re not creating problems for people on the ground. Nearby residents aren’t asked if they’re ok with low flying planes being overhead.

basically if they can’t host the show safely, let others take over.

[Chad Fuck 18166]

39 minutes ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

They are all on the same frequency and there is an airboss.  There were a lot of planes in the air when this occurred. I wonder if the P-63 was trying to join up on the B-17 and loss SA.  

This seems the most likely scenario.   

From all the video I've seen, it doesn't look like either pilot knew the other was there.  Based on the flight patterns, the P-63 seems most likely to have been out of position.  Give the attitude of the P-63, in the declining left bank, I don't think he ever saw the B-17.  As mentioned upthread, he was probably in the blindspot.  I think the primary question for the investigators is going to be why was he out of position (lack of situational awareness?  Bad comms?  Bad briefings?  Poor decision making? An issue with the aircraft?) and why he was trying to get back in rather than just exit a crowded airspace.  

@jimmyjazz all aircraft have blindspots.  Low winged airplanes have it beneath them, high winged above.  The answer is not to stop flying airplanes, it is to maintain situational awareness.  

[Chad Fuck 18166]

3 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I have mixed feelings about these air shows. I think they’re great for people who are entertained or educated about aircraft especially historic aircraft. But air shows shouldn’t be allowed to continue unless they can individually show that they’re not creating problems for people on the ground. Nearby residents aren’t asked if they’re ok with low flying planes being overhead.

basically if they can’t host the show safely, let others take over.

That airport was there long before the people who moved there.  No activity has 100% security.  

These airshows have been going on for a long time with incidents being rare, and incidents that involve spectators even rarer.  

Who is the "they" hosting the airshow that you refer to?  Who is the "others"?

 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13742]

9 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

That airport was there long before the people who moved there.  No activity has 100% security.  

These airshows have been going on for a long time with incidents being rare, and incidents that involve spectators even rarer.  

Who is the "they" hosting the airshow that you refer to?  Who is the "others"?

 

I’m not familiar with how air shows run. Are you saying these air shows are just pilots showing up and there isn’t an organization behind the show.

i learned something new today.

[Chad Fuck 18166]

22 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I’m not familiar with how air shows run. Are you saying these air shows are just pilots showing up and there isn’t an organization behind the show.

i learned something new today.

C'mon now Eddie.  I'm not the one who went out on the limb to call out people they didn't know about an event they admittedly didn't really understand to be replaced by other people you don't know.  In any case, we both know that's not what I meant.   Really I was just asking you for a more thoughtful response to the tragedy as I know you to generally be a thoughtful and well-meaning poster.

These events are planned with great care for the safety of all involved.   Something went horribly wrong yesterday.  There will be an investigation of all aspects - the airplanes, the crew members, the airshow planning and execution of briefings, etc.   We will learn from it, implement changes that are necessary and continue to have what are generally safe events in which incidents like this are, thankfully, rare.  

 

[GreenspointTexas 9992]

If there is one thing ive learned from this thread, its that not a lot of people know a lot about airshows

[Leeroy Jenkins 2502]

8 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

C'mon now Eddie.  I'm not the one who went out on the limb to call out people they didn't know about an event they admittedly didn't really understand to be replaced by other people you don't know.  In any case, we both know that's not what I meant.   Really I was just asking you for a more thoughtful response to the tragedy as I know you to generally be a thoughtful and well-meaning poster.

These events are planned with great care for the safety of all involved.   Something went horribly wrong yesterday.  There will be an investigation of all aspects - the airplanes, the crew members, the airshow planning and execution of briefings, etc.   We will learn from it, implement changes that are necessary and continue to have what are generally safe events in which incidents like this are, thankfully, rare.  

 

FAA members sit in on the pilots safety brief and FAA members watch everything that is going on.  Our air show is a little more interesting as it is over the water and we have to deal with boaters and people on jet skis making sure they stay out of the aerobatic box area.  

[Chad Fuck 18166]

FAA members sit in on the pilots safety brief and FAA members watch everything that is going on.  Our air show is a little more interesting as it is over the water and we have to deal with boaters and people on jet skis making sure they stay out of the aerobatic box area.  

Interesting. Which show?

Cedar Creek?

[Surly Bevo 25778]

Looks like one of the victims was from where I live

Quote

 

City of Keller Government 

8m  · 

We're heartbroken to share that one of the victims of the tragedy at yesterday's Dallas Air Show was Keller resident Terry Barker.

Terry was a devoted husband, father, grandfather and Army veteran. He was retired from a career with American Airlines, and many in town may remember him as a committed public servant. He served Keller as a member of the Planning & Zoning Commission from 1995-1999 and was elected to two terms on the Keller City Council, helping guide our community from 1999 to 2003.

"I was fortunate to have him as a friend, and his guidance when it came to what was best for our residents never steered me wrong," Mayor Armin Mizani said.

Former Mayor Pat McGrail, who sat beside Barker when they served together on Council, described him as a thoughtful and caring person and politician who would be missed by all who knew him.

Our thoughts today are with Karen, Caleb, Nathan, and the rest of Terry's family and friends. The Field of Honor display in front of Keller Town Hall that was originally set for disassembly this afternoon will remain in place for an additional week in Terry's memory.

 

 

[DaysOff 8222]

Two retired AA pilots and one active UAL pilot among the dead.

[tx 3 putt 78743]

they sell rides on the B-17's, I'm wondering if they had any riders ?

[Lat22 4089]

I can’t imagine that they’d have paying riders during an airshow, but I’ve already been wrong in this thread once. 

[TwiceHorn 32106]

2 hours ago, tx 3 putt said:

they sell rides on the B-17's, I'm wondering if they had any riders ?

At this particular airshow, they do some "reenactments" where they have multiple aircraft in the air "providing fighter cover" for bombers and such, and even kind of "dogfighting."  One of the C-47s even drops a stick of parachutists in vintage gear.

If and when they do paid rides, typically the vintage craft is the only one in the air at that time, when the other "fesitivities" are complete.

[ztejas 44285]

On 11/12/2022 at 4:18 PM, GreenspointTexas said:

Now down to 3 airworthy p63s left in the world

That's the real tragedy. 

2 hours ago, tx 3 putt said:

they sell rides on the B-17's, I'm wondering if they had any riders ?

 

1 hour ago, Lat22 said:

I can’t imagine that they’d have paying riders during an airshow, but I’ve already been wrong in this thread once. 

Just said 6 dead on local news in Austin. 

[Nivek 17425]

4 hours ago, Chad Fuck said:

This seems the most likely scenario.   

From all the video I've seen, it doesn't look like either pilot knew the other was there.  Based on the flight patterns, the P-63 seems most likely to have been out of position.  Give the attitude of the P-63, in the declining left bank, I don't think he ever saw the B-17.  As mentioned upthread, he was probably in the blindspot.  I think the primary question for the investigators is going to be why was he out of position (lack of situational awareness?  Bad comms?  Bad briefings?  Poor decision making? An issue with the aircraft?) and why he was trying to get back in rather than just exit a crowded airspace.  

@jimmyjazz all aircraft have blindspots.  Low winged airplanes have it beneath them, high winged above.  The answer is not to stop flying airplanes, it is to maintain situational awareness.  

I think NGE was pondering how the reliance upon just the pilots to be situationally aware seems like it has a lack of backup safety built into the program.  An Airboss on the ground trying to talk to everyone seems like an overwhelming job if they are all on the same channel.  Give the pilots some ipads and some connectivity to show where they are all located via radar if they are going to be in close proximity, or maybe do not fly in close proximity if this is not feasible. 

I totally get it.  Guard rails sometimes get in the way of experiencing the full beauty of a scene, but that is a small price to pay if people are dying.   

6 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

At this particular airshow, they do some "reenactments" where they have multiple aircraft in the air "providing fighter cover" for bombers and such, and even kind of "dogfighting."  One of the C-47s even drops a stick of parachutists in vintage gear.

If and when they do paid rides, typically the vintage craft is the only one in the air at that time, when the other "fesitivities" are complete.

I was wondering if that might have been it.  ugh.   awful.

[Chad Fuck 18166]

3 hours ago, tx 3 putt said:

they sell rides on the B-17's, I'm wondering if they had any riders ?

No.  You are not allowed to have riders in an airshow situation.  Required crew only. 

[Chad Fuck 18166]

That P-63F was 1 of 2 and until yesterday the only surviving one.  

[Chad Fuck 18166]

1 hour ago, Nivek said:

I think NGE was pondering how the reliance upon just the pilots to be situationally aware seems like it has a lack of backup safety built into the program.  An Airboss on the ground trying to talk to everyone seems like an overwhelming job if they are all on the same channel.  Give the pilots some ipads and some connectivity to show where they are all located via radar if they are going to be in close proximity, or maybe do not fly in close proximity if this is not feasible. 

I totally get it.  Guard rails sometimes get in the way of experiencing the full beauty of a scene, but that is a small price to pay if people are dying.   

I was wondering if that might have been it.  ugh.   awful.

We just don't know what was really going on.  My point is that we see a lot of knee jerk reactions (We shouldn't fly these planes!  We shouldn't have these air shows!) without complete information, and moreover, without recognition that there are a lot of people who work together professionally to make them happen.  Let's get the information, then see what conclusions it leads us to.  I know that's not the fire aim ready we do around here, but it works.  

[Guest]

Thought it might be the case, but that B-17 was one that I almost flew on. Had the trip scheduled, toured the plane, loaded up, strapped in, and taxied before the pilots felt that something didn't sound right so they scrubbed the flight.

 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13742]

5 hours ago, Chad Fuck said:

C'mon now Eddie.  I'm not the one who went out on the limb to call out people they didn't know about an event they admittedly didn't really understand to be replaced by other people you don't know.  In any case, we both know that's not what I meant.   Really I was just asking you for a more thoughtful response to the tragedy as I know you to generally be a thoughtful and well-meaning poster.

These events are planned with great care for the safety of all involved.   Something went horribly wrong yesterday.  There will be an investigation of all aspects - the airplanes, the crew members, the airshow planning and execution of briefings, etc.   We will learn from it, implement changes that are necessary and continue to have what are generally safe events in which incidents like this are, thankfully, rare.  

 

From a few of the video angles, it appears that several planes, especially these 2, were converging on the same area at the same time. That seems inherently unsafe for the pilots and the crowd on the ground.  Seems like an unnecessary risk to have them fly even remotely close to each other.

I’m not calling to stop air shows. While not identical, I am reminded of tragedies like the A&M bonfire where people died for an entertainment event.

[Dennis Taylor 19381]

Damn what a tragedy.  I've seen that B17 flying around NW Houston before.  Hits close because dad was a gunner on a B17 crew in ww2

[Walser 1126]

3 hours ago, ztejas said:

That's the real tragedy. 

 

Just said 6 dead on local news in Austin. 

No, the tragedy is that people died. I feel the loss of history too but let's not get sideways.

My grandfather was a navigator on a B-17 that went down after a raid over Ploesti. POW for 9 months. He left college to join the Army Air Corp after Pearl Harbor. He trained out of Ellington before going to Italy. I'm about to go see his digital oral history exhibit at the WW2 museum in Nawlins so this hits relatively close to home.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Walser

[CHIEF 5229]

Old Warbirds are just inherently very dangerous. I was a mechanic at the FBO in Clifton, Texas during college. I  knew three people who were killed in a P-51, an 8F8 Bearcat, and another warbird that I can't remember:

Don Knapp, in 1989, cool dude. Owned a P-51D, a triple row Wasp F4U that won the 1949 Cleveland Air Race, and, at the time, the only Me-262 (all in parts in crates) known to exist. He ran his P-51 out of gas at the air show at Dyess, in Abilene (his home base) in 1989. My boss' wife was from Abilene, we would go out there every year for the airshow.  Her brother was an A&P at the  American Eagle repair facility, next door to Don, in the same sized hanger. I was lucky enough to get to sit in the cockpit of both the P-51, and the F4U. 

Another amazing airshow, we would go to, was in Breckenridge, Texas. My boss and Howard Pardue were pretty good friends. Howard had an extensive restoration facility at the airport. You could walk into his hangar, and there would be partially assembled Spitfires, P-51s, F4Us, you name it. His pride and joy was his 8F8 Bearcat, couldn't wait to get it in the air. Well he did, and it killed him in 2012. His daughter, Kimberly, was killed in a warbird, that she was piloting in 1984, at only 19 years of age. I never wanted to bring it up, and ask Howard what she was flying when she crashed, I guess you could also say I didn't know her personally, but he named his 8F8 after her.

 

 

One year, my boss had this great idea to fly this piece of shit to Breckenridge:

https://www.pietenpolaircraftcompany.com

It was all painted up like the Red Baron, Iron Cross, the whole enchilada, from Clifton to Breckenridge, Stephenville was our midway stop to refuel (his wife was waiting with car gas). We had rebuilt the 1935 Lambert five cylinder radial to power it. It didn't have any pistons when we got it, but standard 350 Chevrolet pistons fit it perfectly. At that time, Stephenville had a crosswind runway, and the wind was out of the west, so away we went. On the climb out, the engine sputtered and begin to loss power, we were descending directly into a big power station with huge transformers, heavy gauge wire, etc. Asshole puckering moment, it cleared up after about 5-6 seconds. My boss just looked back, smiled, and winked.

The control sticks were two sawed off baseball bats, no instruments, and a float gauge for the fuel level (it had a marked wire, you knew how much fuel you had by how far the wire stuck up out of the fuel cap). There were no trim tabs, so it was like fighting a Grizzly, the whole way. You could look down, and old farm trucks were pulling on you. We flew the highway, and made a deal to switch, as the pilot, at each town we came to (about 12 miles apart). It was absolutely exhausting. The only cool thing was spitting over the side, and realizing you had just spit 3000 feet.

I also had the chance to buy a Cassutt from my high school history teacher and aviation teacher's FIL:

https://www.cassuttaircraft.com

But with less than 100 hours, he said we would have to rename it "Casket". Could have bought it for $5k in 1986.

Also had a chance to buy a Pitts Special biplane that had been flooded in the Leon river bottom for $9500 around 1990 from a guy that lost his leg in an airshow accident, and had lost his medical. My Boss nixed that. 

Like I would have been with those planes, the people flying these warbirds are getting in over their heads. Their money lets them hotrod in hot planes that even airline pilots with thousands of hours aren't qualified to fly. In wartime, this was probably a daily occurrence you never heard about. The flight hours to be competent gets shaved by deep pockets. These planes are not very reliable, Howard was killed due to engine problems, Don had a faulty fuel gauge. It's dangerous enough to fly them with no one else in your airspace. Get them in close proximity and showing off and you get midair collisions.

CHIEF

Edited November 14, 2022 by CHIEF

[InkaUtexas 26950]

This site never ceases to amaze. 

[Longhornstampede 3227]

Those Twitter threads are so full of enraging stupid. Starting with the dumbasses screaming like old ninnies about it being intentional

[Hermanator 7684]

These airshows have gone way too far

Probably should leave out the kamikaze reenactments from now on. 

[TexPx 2337]

Not all of these were at air shows
Saturday’s collision between two World War II-era military planes at a Dallas air show was the latest in a long list of crashes involving vintage planes used or designed for military purposes. Some recent fatal crashes in the U.S. and abroad:

Oct. 2, 2019: A four-engine, propeller-driven B-17G Flying Fortress bomber with 13 people aboard crashed at Bradley International Airport, north of Hartford, Conn., during a traveling vintage aircraft show. Seven people were killed and six were hurt. The National Transportation Safety Board found that pilot error was the probable cause, with inadequate maintenance a contributing factor.

Nov. 17, 2018: A privately owned vintage World War II Mustang fighter airport plane crashed into the parking lot of an apartment complex in Fredericksburg, killing the pilot and a passenger. The P-51D Mustang was returning after performing a flyover during a living history show at the national Museum of the Pacific War. The aircraft was destroyed, and several vehicles in the parking lot were damaged.

Aug. 4, 2018: A 79-year-old Junkers Ju-52 plane operated by the Swiss company Ju-Air plunged into the Piz Segnas mountain near the Flims ski resort in eastern Switzerland, killing all 20 on board. Retired from Switzerland’s air force in 1981, the German-built plane was carrying tourists who wanted to take “adventure flights” to experience the country’s landscape in vintage planes. Swiss investigators said that “high-risk flying” by the pilots led to the crash.

May 30, 2018: A small vintage airplane that was part of a GEICO stunt team with five other planes crashed in a wooded residential area in Melville, N.Y., killing the pilot. The World War II-era SNJ-2 aircraft, known as a North American T-6 Texan, had departed from a nearby airport and was heading to Maryland when it crashed.

July 16, 2017: A pilot and an airport manager were killed in Cummings, Kan., after their World War II-era P-51D Mustang “Baby Duck” crashed into a field. Authorities say the pilot was re-creating a stunt he had performed on the prior day at the Amelia Earhart Festival.

Jan. 26, 2017: A World War II-era Grumman G-73 Mallard flying boat stalled and nosedived into the Swan River in Perth, Australia, during Australia Day celebrations. Both the pilot and his passenger died.

Aug. 27, 2016: A pilot from Alaska was killed when his 450 Stearman biplane, a World War II-era plane often used for military training, crashed during the Airshow of the Cascades in Madras, Ore.

July 17, 2016: A T-28 Trojan, used by the U.S. military as a training aircraft beginning in the 1950s and also as a counterinsurgency aircraft during the Vietnam War, crashed at the Cold Lake Air Show in Alberta, Canada, killing the pilot. Thousands of spectators witnessed the accident.

Aug. 22, 2015: A 1950s-era Hawker Hunter T7 jet crashed into a busy highway near West Sussex, England, killing 11 and injuring more than a dozen others. Investigators said the pilot, who survived, was flying too low and slowly to successfully complete a loop-the-loop. He was charged with 11 counts of manslaughter but ultimately was cleared.

June 22, 2013: A pilot and a wing-walker were killed when their World War II-era Boeing-Stearman IB75A biplane crashed into the ground and burst into flames during a performance at the Vectren Dayton Air Show in Vandalia, Ohio. Thousands of spectators saw the crash, which federal safety investigators said was likely caused by pilot error.

Sept. 16, 2011: The pilot of a 70-year-old modified P-51D Mustang called the Galloping Ghost lost control of the aircraft at the National Championship Air Races and Air Show in Reno, Nev., and crashed into spectators, killing 10 and injuring more than 60. The pilot also died. Federal investigators blamed the crash on worn parts and speed.

[conVINCEd 21477]

When I was a kid I got to go on a hot air balloon ride with a guy my grandfather worked with.  He was a doctor who held damn near every world record that existed in hot air ballooning at the time.  A few years later he died when shit went sideways and he got caught up in some power lines.  Best hot air balloon guy in the world.  Dead.  Flying things is an inherently dangerous activity.  I would imagine that flying antique airplanes ups the ante significantly.  At this point I think we should probably put all of these planes in museums, but the same grandfather I mentioned above, who was a decorated WWII vet, went for a ride in one on his 85th birthday.  I wasn’t there, but the picture of him after they landed was pure joy, so who the fuck knows.

[CHIEF 5229]

Thats the thing, this is 75 year old "cutting edge" technology. Basically flathead Fords going 450 mph. It is getting tougher and tougher to source parts, so mechanics and machinists are having to repair broken parts manually (welding, duck tape, remachining taking off material thickness). But the biggest problem, is the operating costs. These planes were designed to fly on 100/150 AV gas, they weren't designed to fly on 100LL, but 100LL will work at lower power at lower altitudes. 100LL fouls the plugs horribly, the plugs need to be cleaned after a 6-8 hours of flight.  We had a crop duster at our FBO that used an AgCat with an O-650 P&W (single row), built in 1943. I cleaned his plugs every other day during spraying season. Also, the 100LL was bad on the brass valve seats. We eventually had a machinist make some out of billet nickel for extra hardness.

Considering this, and the cost of 100LL, pilots can only afford to fly them a couple of hours a month. There is no way to maintain proficiency at the controls. You do not have the US government providing unlimited fuel and a sea of mechanics to maintain these aircraft, they are too cost prohibitive.

CHIEF

[HenryJames 67465]

11 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

Best hot air balloon guy in the world.  Dead.

[Chad Fuck 18166]

Thats the thing, this is 75 year old "cutting edge" technology. Basically flathead Fords going 450 mph. It is getting tougher and tougher to source parts, so mechanics and machinists are having to repair broken parts manually (welding, duck tape, remachining taking off material thickness). But the biggest problem, is the operating costs. These planes were designed to fly on 100/150 AV gas, they weren't designed to fly on 100LL, but 100LL will work at lower power at lower altitudes. 100LL fouls the plugs horribly, the plugs need to be cleaned after a 6-8 hours of flight.  We had a crop duster at our FBO that used an AgCat with an O-650 P&W (single row), built in 1943. I cleaned his plugs every other day during spraying season. Also, the 100LL was bad on the brass valve seats. We eventually had a machinist make some out of billet nickel for extra hardness.
Considering this, and the cost of 100LL, pilots can only afford to fly them a couple of hours a month. There is no way to maintain proficiency at the controls. You do not have the US government providing unlimited fuel and a sea of mechanics to maintain these aircraft, they are too cost prohibitive.
CHIEF

No one questions the entire population of driving flathead Fords if one jumps a lane and kills a minivan full of people.

You raise several valid points about warbird operations (cost of upkeep, lack of spares, etc.) that are worthy of discussion, but how many of them are relevant to this incident? What evidence do we have that this incident was a maintenance issue? Do you believe that maintenance is at issue here? I’m open to it, especially as regards the P-63, but I just haven’t seen any evidence of it.

The CAF maintained and operated the B-17 without incident for 50 years. There is no indication of any maintenance issue with that plane, or the B-29 or the B-24 etc. I appreciate the issue of high performance warbirds operated by single owners (ie the Howard Pardue example.) But that isn’t relevant in this case as yet.

Further single operation/ownership is really becoming a thing of the past. Av gas, insurance and cost of upkeep is making it increasingly difficult. Nevertheless, what of the hundreds of other warbirds operated without incident across the world?

By the way, curious if Pardue stole all the sugar packets at your FBO like he did at ours? He would gas up, get a cup of coffee and then shove every sugar packet he could reach into his pockets. Bizarre behavior. Also it’s F8F, or Bearcat if the numbers letters get you confounded.

[conVINCEd 21477]

22 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

When I was a kid I got to go on a hot air balloon ride with a guy my grandfather worked with.  He was a doctor who held damn near every world record that existed in hot air ballooning at the time.  A few years later he died when shit went sideways and he got caught up in some power lines.  Best hot air balloon guy in the world.  Dead.  Flying things is an inherently dangerous activity.  I would imagine that flying antique airplanes ups the ante significantly.  At this point I think we should probably put all of these planes in museums, but the same grandfather I mentioned above, who was a decorated WWII vet, went for a ride in one on his 85th birthday.  I wasn’t there, but the picture of him after they landed was pure joy, so who the fuck knows.

I need to correct myself.  I looked it up because I was curious, and my memory failed me.  He didn’t die in the accident, but survived despite suffering burns over 80% of his body and being in a coma for several months.  I didn’t know the man well, and I guess I just assumed he died after hearing about it 30 years ago.  He was a Longhorn as well, so hook’em Dr. Foster and thanks for taking me up in your balloon 40ish years ago.
 

https://www.nationalballoonmuseum.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Coy-Foster-2020-HOF-.pdf

[Chad Fuck 18166]

14 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

From a few of the video angles, it appears that several planes, especially these 2, were converging on the same area at the same time. That seems inherently unsafe for the pilots and the crowd on the ground.  Seems like an unnecessary risk to have them fly even remotely close to each other.

I’m not calling to stop air shows. While not identical, I am reminded of tragedies like the A&M bonfire where people died for an entertainment event.

 

Those videos are an illusion based on where the recorder is standing.  Typically in an airshow like this you would have lanes (think a highway), with horizontal separation between the lanes so they didn't intersect.   You'd have a slow lane for the big planes, and a separated fast lane for the smaller, faster, more maneuverable planes.  Those lanes fly past the crowd parallel to the show line.  You never have show traffic pointing at the crowd (i.e., these planes are never going to be facing the crowd head on).   It would be as if you were standing on the side of the highway watching multiple lanes of traffic pass by.  From far enough out, it might appear they were all heading right at you, but in reality, there is separation horizontally.  Add to this there is also likely a vertical separation and time separation.  

In this video, the first one posted here, you can see that horizontal separation is significant.  There may be an vertical separation as well, but its hard to tell from this vantage point.  There is also a time component about who is where when in the lane.  The viewer first see two P-51s, flying at a high speed, to viewers right.  Then the viewer turns to the left, and you see the B-17 at a distance from the line the P-51s were flying.  I suspect that the P-63 was supposed to be flying in the same lane as the P-51s, or its own separate lane.  The question is why did the P-63 depart from its lane?  It appears (but isn't certain) that he was trying to either (a) line up on the runway (in the big plane lane) or (b) change his position to re-enter the lane he was supposed to be in.  It may be neither of those.  It may be he had a maintenance issue and though he had to get the plane on the ground right away (of course, in that case, the better plan would have been to go straight ahead onto the grass between the strips or a taxiway - staying in his lane).

Also, typically there is dedicated airspace for when a plane needs to depart from their lane.  IF (big if) the P-63 had an issue where he could maintain control, but knew he was out of his lane, the smart thing to do would be to pull up and away into that dedicated airspace.  For example, pull up above a known altitude where no one else is going to be.  The visibility in that aircraft is pretty good forward and up to the sides, so he could visually clear the airspace where he was going.  The visibility is poor down and left/right.  Yet that is where he went (was forced to go by the plane?) with catastrophic results.  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Chad Fuck

[Chad Fuck 18166]

[Chad Fuck 18166]

Another bit I meant to mention above.  The P-63 had been flying its routine with the P-51s, so that is why I suspect it should have been in line with them.  That's just my conjecture from what I saw while I was there.

Also, while I did not see the accident, I saw the aftermath.  I was standing more or less where the video was Eddie posted where he said it looked like the planes were converging.  The wreckage landed about 350 yards, give or take, from the show line.  It was a significant distance from the crowd.  

Edited November 14, 2022 by Chad Fuck

[CHIEF 5229]

1 hour ago, Chad Fuck said:

No one questions the entire population of driving flathead Fords if one jumps a lane and kills a minivan full of people.

You raise several valid points about warbird operations (cost of upkeep, lack of spares, etc.) that are worthy of discussion, but how many of them are relevant to this incident? What evidence do we have that this incident was a maintenance issue? Do you believe that maintenance is at issue here? I’m open to it, especially as regards the P-63, but I just haven’t seen any evidence of it.

The CAF maintained and operated the B-17 without incident for 50 years. There is no indication of any maintenance issue with that plane, or the B-29 or the B-24 etc. I appreciate the issue of high performance warbirds operated by single owners (ie the Howard Pardue example.) But that isn’t relevant in this case as yet.

Further single operation/ownership is really becoming a thing of the past. Av gas, insurance and cost of upkeep is making it increasingly difficult. Nevertheless, what of the hundreds of other warbirds operated without incident across the world?

By the way, curious if Pardue stole all the sugar packets at your FBO like he did at ours? He would gas up, get a cup of coffee and then shove every sugar packet he could reach into his pockets. Bizarre behavior. Also it’s F8F, or Bearcat if the numbers letters get you confounded.

Absolutely not a maintenance issue. It was a pilot proficiency issue. The pilot should have known about the blind spot, he wasn't paying attention early enough. He was directly over the B-17, it was under his nose, impossible to see from any angle unless the B-17 were to turn before the P-63 when the P-63 pilot could have seen it before his leading edge covered him up again. The air boss should have made the P-63 pilot aware that there was a B-17 under him, and to maintain altitude. Who knows?

 Too many planes in the air in a congested area, and too many changes in altitude. The P-63 never made any last second effort to avoid the collision, thus my hypothesis that he never saw him. These pilots pay too much money, or maintenance time to want to just fly straight and level. Who wants to buy an F1 car and drive it 60 mph around the track. Airshows are like that, and they are all "Newbies" in a sense. I bet none of them have over 100 hours of seat time in anything they fly due to cost.

I remember when you could purchase a P-51 for between $300-500k. My dream plane. As soon as I made enough money to purchase one, that was what I was going to do, and people would get to watch me at airshows. Big dreams for a 16 year old. After being around Don and Howard, I realized that the purchase price was just a drop in the bucket. You needed to pour that much into it, annually, for maintenance and enough fuel to stay proficient, and this was on $2.00/gal 100LL.

These warbird pilots are living their dream, however, they were completely unaware of how much extra dough you must have above the purchase price to be safe in it. Something that my time as a mechanic and being around warbirds, and their owners taught me. It was a bitter truth, and a crushed dream.

I remember throwing full blown toddler temper tantrums when we had to go to church on Sunday night (my Dad was the song leader) and missing Baa Baa Black Sheep. No VCR, no recording it. I think my mom was the one that called ABC and had it moved to Tuesday night. I slept, ate, and drank WWII warbirds.

Yeah, F8F, I was bourbon typing, had to look this morning and see what I had typed.

CHIEF

Edited November 14, 2022 by CHIEF

[Chad Fuck 18166]

2 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

Absolutely not a maintenance issue. It was a pilot proficiency issue. The pilot should have known about the blind spot, he wasn't paying attention early enough. He was directly over the B-17, it was under his nose, impossible to see from any angle unless the B-17 were to turn before the P-63 when the P-63 pilot could have seen it before his leading edge covered him up again. The air boss should have made the P-63 pilot aware that there was a B-17 under him, and to maintain altitude. Who knows?

 Too many planes in the air in a congested area, and too many changes in altitude. The P-63 never made any last second effort to avoid the collision, thus my hypothesis that he never saw him. These pilots pay too much money, or maintenance time to want to just fly straight and level. Who wants to buy an F1 car and drive it 60 mph around the track. Airshows are like that, and they are all "Newbies" in a sense. I bet none of them have over 100 hours of seat time in anything they fly due to cost.

I remember when you could purchase a P-51 for between $300-500k. My dream plane. As soon as I made enough money to purchase one, that was what I was going to do, and people would get to watch me at airshows. Big dreams for a 16 year old. After being around Don and Howard, I realized that the purchase price was just a drop in the bucket. You needed to pour that much into it, annually, for maintenance and enough fuel to stay proficient, and this was on $2.00/gal 100LL.

These warbird pilots are living their dream, however, they were completely unaware of how much extra dough you must have above the purchase price to be safe in it. Something that my time as a mechanic and being around warbirds, and their owners taught me. It was a bitter truth, and a crushed dream.

I remember throwing full blown toddler temper tantrums when we had to go to church on Sunday night (my Dad was the song leader) and missing Baa Baa Black Sheep. No VCR, no recording it. I think my mom was the one that called ABC and had it moved to Tuesday night. I slept, ate, and drank WWII warbirds.

CHIEF

Same all the way through. 

The thing here is this was pretty much the last routine of the day.  The P-63 had his show off time on his own.  This was really just the planes flying straight and level down the show line with no maneuvering.  Which makes it all the more baffling.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Chad Fuck

[ztejas 44285]

13 hours ago, Walser said:

No, the tragedy is that people died. I feel the loss of history too but let's not get sideways.

Perhaps my dryness escapes you. 

[Nivek 17425]

I never considered how fatiguing it could be to fly some of those older planes.  I cannot imagine how exhausting the older wing-warping planes were to fly. 

I went down a rabbit hole years ago and noticed that there were too many stories of pilots falling/thrown from their planes when these things were relatively new.   Bessie Coleman I believe flew a plane that was <10 yrs old and was thrown from it.   

 

[Chad Fuck 18166]

Just now, Nivek said:

I never considered how fatiguing it could be to fly some of those older planes.  I cannot imagine how exhausting the older wing-warping planes were to fly. 

I went down a rabbit hole years ago and noticed that there were too many stories of pilots falling/thrown from their planes when these things were relatively new.   Bessie Coleman I believe flew a plane that was <10 yrs old and was thrown from it.   

 

We just happened to be at the NASM last weekend.  You look at those first 10 years of powered fixed wing flight - no way.  Powered kites.  No safety at all.  None.  Zero.  

 

[CHIEF 5229]

11 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

We just happened to be at the NASM last weekend.  You look at those first 10 years of powered fixed wing flight - no way.  Powered kites.  No safety at all.  None.  Zero.  

 

I bet ol' Orville shit his pants when his Wright Flyer actually left the ground. WWI fighter pilots didn't have parachutes, and a life expectancy of just a few weeks. A whole different mindset. Dying famously seemed like the trend at the time, going out in a blaze of glory doing what you loved.

34 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

Here, again, you have a Commerative or a collective of guys with pockets not deep enough. They do, it purely out of passion. But passion alone isn't safe enough. The plane can't be flown often enough to keep the pilot proficient. It's like being accurate with a rifle at 600 yards, it takes practice, you can't maintain that accuracy only shooting 5-6 shots a year.

CHIEF

[Bevo 13925]

3 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

WWI fighter pilots didn't have parachutes, and a life expectancy of just a few weeks.

Dog fights or crashes due to mechanical issues?

[Chad Fuck 18166]

10 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

I bet ol' Orville shit his pants when his Wright Flyer actually left the ground. WWI fighter pilots didn't have parachutes, and a life expectancy of just a few weeks. A whole different mindset. Dying famously seemed like the trend at the time, going out in a blaze of glory doing what you loved.

Here, again, you have a Commerative or a collective of guys with pockets not deep enough. They do, it purely out of passion. But passion alone isn't safe enough. The plane can't be flown often enough to keep the pilot proficient. It's like being accurate with a rifle at 600 yards, it takes practice, you can't maintain that accuracy only shooting 5-6 shots a year.

CHIEF

There's a great book on WWI flying, "No Parachute" by Arthur Gould Lee.  Well written and engaging account of flying in this period.  

I can't really speak to the current proficiency program of the CAF.  I was involved peripherally as a kid, but nowadays I mostly attend airshows and chat with those currently in the CAF as to what is going on.  It seems like things have gone in the right direction since the CAF became "corporatized" back in the early 2000s and there were a couple incidents back then that changed the direction away from the "good ole boys flying club" it was back in the 60-80s.  From what I understand they have a more structured and professional safety/maintenance program than pre-2000, but maybe someone else here can speak more to that.  I would be interested to know more about it.  

They've had a pretty good record over the last 15 years or so.  Once again though, it seems that the big iron guys are quite proficient.  The B-17 crew was doing exactly what it was supposed to be doing in this case, as was the -24.  The -29 was staging to take off for the grand finale.   

15 minutes ago, Bevo said:

Dog fights or crashes due to mechanical issues?

All of it.  Everything was brand new then, and many of the improvements were paid for in blood.  

[CHIEF 5229]

15 minutes ago, Bevo said:

Dog fights or crashes due to mechanical issues?

Mostly dogfights, or structural issues. The engines were pretty simple and reliable, but the planes, themselves were made of fabric and wood. Pull too many Gs and it would rip the wings off. Not a lot of R&D stress testing back then.

CHIEF

[gyroprotagonist 2597]

not even a csb, but I cannot even remember  the number times i drew the B17 on notebook paper while doodling in school growing up.  Think it was the tailgun and the name Flying Fortress that really captured my imagination.  Very sad to see that happen

[tokamak 6687]

Texas Raiders was one of about 10ish airworthy B-17s left, I think.

[CHIEF 5229]

18 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

There's a great book on WWI flying, "No Parachute" by Arthur Gould Lee.  Well written and engaging account of flying in this period.  

I can't really speak to the current proficiency program of the CAF.  I was involved peripherally as a kid, but nowadays I mostly attend airshows and chat with those currently in the CAF as to what is going on.  It seems like things have gone in the right direction since the CAF became "corporatized" back in the early 2000s and there were a couple incidents back then that changed the direction away from the "good ole boys flying club" it was back in the 60-80s.  From what I understand they have a more structured and professional safety/maintenance program than pre-2000, but maybe someone else here can speak more to that.  I would be interested to know more about it.  

They've had a pretty good record over the last 15 years or so.  Once again though, it seems that the big iron guys are quite proficient.  The B-17 crew was doing exactly what it was supposed to be doing in this case, as was the -24.  The -29 was staging to take off for the grand finale.   

All of it.  Everything was brand new then, and many of the improvements were paid for in blood.  

After getting out of college, getting married, and raising a young family, I didn't keep up with it much, other than the occasional trip over to view the static display and the occasional takeoff and landing at the Burnet show. The CAF was kinda the first Collective warbird club. There were still a lot of WWII vets that were young enough and familiar enough to have turned wrenches on, or flown these aircraft in WWII.  They were in their 70's, and still pretty spry. I think losing that generation, their knowledge, and the fact that when they were young, they did this for 24/7 for four years with a gun pointed at them has cost most of the loses. They were all trained by the US Government with no regard to cost, and had literally repaired or replaced thousands of parts on these planes. It is hard to translate that knowledge over to the younger generation of pilots and mechanics. CAF has been around long enough to have the most experienced pilots and mechanics, and the largest knowledge transfer, probably contributes to their safety record.

CHIEF

Edited November 14, 2022 by CHIEF
Spellin' and Punchashun

[Chad Fuck 18166]

2 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

After getting out of college, getting married, and raising a young family, I didn't keep up with it much, other than the occasional trip over to view the static display and the occasional takeoff and landing at the Burnet show. The CAF was kinda the first Collective warbird club. There were still a lot of WWII vets the were young enough and familiar enough to have turned wrenches on or flown these aircraft in WWII they were in their 70's, and still pretty spry. I think losing that generation, their knowledge, and the fact that when they were young, they did this for 24/7 for four years with a gun pointed at them has cost most of the loses. They were all trained by the US Government with no regard to cost, and had literally repaired or replaced thousands of parts on these planes. It is hard to translate that knowledge over to the younger generation of pilots and mechanics. CAF has been around long enough to have the most experienced pilots and mechanics, and the largest knowledge transfer.

CHIEF

I remember those massive formations of T-6s when they had the big airshows at Breckenridge and Denton though.  Avgas was cheap back then.  At the same time, I think there is a significant number of folks who've made it their passion/profession to maintain this knowledge.  You see this is in the ever increasing quality of restorations every year at Oshkosh.  

[CycleTex87 3044]

14 hours ago, CHIEF said:

Old Warbirds are just inherently very dangerous. I was a mechanic at the FBO in Clifton, Texas during college. I  knew three people who were killed in a P-51, an 8F8 Bearcat, and another warbird that I can't remember:

Don Knapp, in 1989, cool dude. Owned a P-51D, a triple row Wasp F4U that won the 1949 Cleveland Air Race, and, at the time, the only Me-262 (all in parts in crates) known to exist. He ran his P-51 out of gas at the air show at Dyess, in Abilene (his home base) in 1989. My boss' wife was from Abilene, we would go out there every year for the airshow.  Her brother was an A&P at the  American Eagle repair facility, next door to Don, in the same sized hanger. I was lucky enough to get to sit in the cockpit of both the P-51, and the F4U. 

Another amazing airshow, we would go to, was in Breckenridge, Texas. My boss and Howard Pardue were pretty good friends. Howard had an extensive restoration facility at the airport. You could walk into his hangar, and there would be partially assembled Spitfires, P-51s, F4Us, you name it. His pride and joy was his 8F8 Bearcat, couldn't wait to get it in the air. Well he did, and it killed him in 2012. His daughter, Kimberly, was killed in a warbird, that she was piloting in 1984, at only 19 years of age. I never wanted to bring it up, and ask Howard what she was flying when she crashed, I guess you could also say I didn't know her personally, but he named his 8F8 after her.

 

 

One year, my boss had this great idea to fly this piece of shit to Breckenridge:

https://www.pietenpolaircraftcompany.com

It was all painted up like the Red Baron, Iron Cross, the whole enchilada, from Clifton to Breckenridge, Stephenville was our midway stop to refuel (his wife was waiting with car gas). We had rebuilt the 1935 Lambert five cylinder radial to power it. It didn't have any pistons when we got it, but standard 350 Chevrolet pistons fit it perfectly. At that time, Stephenville had a crosswind runway, and the wind was out of the west, so away we went. On the climb out, the engine sputtered and begin to loss power, we were descending directly into a big power station with huge transformers, heavy gauge wire, etc. Asshole puckering moment, it cleared up after about 5-6 seconds. My boss just looked back, smiled, and winked.

The control sticks were two sawed off baseball bats, no instruments, and a float gauge for the fuel level (it had a marked wire, you knew how much fuel you had by how far the wire stuck up out of the fuel cap). There were no trim tabs, so it was like fighting a Grizzly, the whole way. You could look down, and old farm trucks were pulling on you. We flew the highway, and made a deal to switch, as the pilot, at each town we came to (about 12 miles apart). It was absolutely exhausting. The only cool thing was spitting over the side, and realizing you had just spit 3000 feet.

I also had the chance to buy a Cassutt from my high school history teacher and aviation teacher's FIL:

https://www.cassuttaircraft.com

But with less than 100 hours, he said we would have to rename it "Casket". Could have bought it for $5k in 1986.

Also had a chance to buy a Pitts Special biplane that had been flooded in the Leon river bottom for $9500 around 1990 from a guy that lost his leg in an airshow accident, and had lost his medical. My Boss nixed that. 

Like I would have been with those planes, the people flying these warbirds are getting in over their heads. Their money lets them hotrod in hot planes that even airline pilots with thousands of hours aren't qualified to fly. In wartime, this was probably a daily occurrence you never heard about. The flight hours to be competent gets shaved by deep pockets. These planes are not very reliable, Howard was killed due to engine problems, Don had a faulty fuel gauge. It's dangerous enough to fly them with no one else in your airspace. Get them in close proximity and showing off and you get midair collisions.

CHIEF

CSB - I was at an opening day dove hunting event around Breckinridge in the early 80's back during the oil boom.  Totally cool shindig, pickups bringing beer and BBQ around the field during the hunt, a dance with a country band that night, and Howard Pardue flying around doing acrobatics over the field in a F4U Corsair. /CSB

[Leeroy Jenkins 2502]

The guy flying the P-63 had over 34,000 hours of flight time.  He performs formation flying all of the time with Tora, Tora, Tora.  He appears to have fucked up badly.  I would not blame it on a proficiency in aircraft model issue.  From one thing that I have read I think he was supposed to join up with the B-17. 

That happened so fast that the airboss couldn't have prevented it.