Depression, OCD, and whatever else ails you between the ears

[YGIFS 19449]

I’ll be at church and can’t make it.  But thanks for all you do and please post the next one.  Didn’t even occur to my naive ass that back to school season can be so rough for so many young people.  If possible; can you post the recording of the panel?  Or I’ll just click on  it later today and see if it’s there.  Godspeed

[UpperWestside 6159]

Thank you again to those who post things from your lives here. This is still a safe place to do so and I really appreciate reading everything because it helps me continue to better understand our fellow human beings and how we operate and live our lives. I have spent most of my life just watching and listening to people (I really should get myself in gear and become a social psychologist) because I find it to be one of the most interesting things I can do. 
 

All of you are amazing in your own way. Please keep sharing the details of your lives when you need to. You never know who you are helping.

Edited August 15, 2023 by UpperWestside

[TwiceHorn 31435]

Man, this is relevant here and many places.  Check it out.  https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2023/09/us-culture-moral-education-formation/674765/

[Doc Daneeka 6769]

21 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Man, this is relevant here and many places.  Check it out.  https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2023/09/us-culture-moral-education-formation/674765/

Not a big David Brooks fan and this is another example of why. He’s windy and throws in a lot of data but his reasoning isn’t very compelling to me. And he’s pretty delusional, or at least myopic, when he appears to want cultural mores but somehow without the “enforcement” — shaming or whatever — that would support them. And he wants to throw stones at politicians he doesn’t like as lacking the morality we should want while ignoring that, in one of his examples, the other candidate seemed pretty lacking in morality herself. 

There’s obviously no easy answer, let alone solution, for why the stuff he’s writing about is like it is. It’s reductionist AF, and I know that, but to me probably the fundamental factor that drives the “meanness” he mentions is galactically shitty parenting — often with the best of intentions — that results in little shitweasels so steeped in “look at me and how important I am and how I can do no wrong and how the world revolves around me” that their sense of self-importance, entitlement, and selfishness has solidified into a worldview in which someone who disagrees with them doesn’t simply have a different opinion, isn’t simply wrong, but is essentially affirmatively evil. Of course you’re going to be mean to someone who is affirmatively evil. 

An outgrowth of that is, imo, “given that I’m so fucking special, why isn’t life catering to my every whim and it’s making me sad and unhappy that it isn’t” which has very predictable outcomes for happiness. Or lack thereof. 

Personally, I blame the mindset that gives five year olds “preschool graduations.” You didn’t graduate preschool. You showed up and played and sang and drew somewhere other than home. It’s not an accomplishment. When every damned thing is an event, perspective is out the window with, again, very predictable outcomes. Also, get off my lawn. 

[YGIFS 19449]

Preschool graduations are to blame for America getting so cruel again?  Okay. I am going to take my 4.5yo to pre school today.  First day and all.  God willing, just us and maybe her grandparents will attend her little graduation ceremony in nine months time.  We won’t send out announcements or even post photos.  Just a moment for her and her surviving grandparents to enjoy.  
 

if I have to listen to losers whine about an event for three fucking years, then I can sure as shit tolerate positive talk about an event for three hours.  
 

we were always mean.  But we tried to get better and did a more inspiring job at it than most countries.  Our problem now is we suddenly decided being stupid was the cool part.  

[TwiceHorn 31435]

22 hours ago, Doc Daneeka said:

Not a big David Brooks fan and this is another example of why. He’s windy and throws in a lot of data but his reasoning isn’t very compelling to me. And he’s pretty delusional, or at least myopic, when he appears to want cultural mores but somehow without the “enforcement” — shaming or whatever — that would support them. And he wants to throw stones at politicians he doesn’t like as lacking the morality we should want while ignoring that, in one of his examples, the other candidate seemed pretty lacking in morality herself. 

There’s obviously no easy answer, let alone solution, for why the stuff he’s writing about is like it is. It’s reductionist AF, and I know that, but to me probably the fundamental factor that drives the “meanness” he mentions is galactically shitty parenting — often with the best of intentions — that results in little shitweasels so steeped in “look at me and how important I am and how I can do no wrong and how the world revolves around me” that their sense of self-importance, entitlement, and selfishness has solidified into a worldview in which someone who disagrees with them doesn’t simply have a different opinion, isn’t simply wrong, but is essentially affirmatively evil. Of course you’re going to be mean to someone who is affirmatively evil. 

An outgrowth of that is, imo, “given that I’m so fucking special, why isn’t life catering to my every whim and it’s making me sad and unhappy that it isn’t” which has very predictable outcomes for happiness. Or lack thereof. 

Personally, I blame the mindset that gives five year olds “preschool graduations.” You didn’t graduate preschool. You showed up and played and sang and drew somewhere other than home. It’s not an accomplishment. When every damned thing is an event, perspective is out the window with, again, very predictable outcomes. Also, get off my lawn. 

I suppose that's fair.  

But you hit on what kind of resonated with me that you don't see that often in sort of mainstream journalism.

My main experience with mental health has been my own alcoholism and in recovery, consequently, my concern with and exposure to other addicts.  That winds up being kind of a crash course in a lot of aspects of mental health.

At some point, I read about the program of AA and the Big Book being an outstanding work of practical "moral psychology."  I was unfamiliar with that term, and have little exposure to philosophy.   So, I thought "moral psychology" meant learning the difference between right and wrong type stuff.  But that's not true, exactly.

In the sense it is used there, and by Brooks, and in the principles of AA, it is to stop being so damned "self-referential."  My terminology for that is "inward dwelling" (not sure where I got that, it's probably not original to me, hardly anything is).

One of the bigger things that AA tries to instill is that you are not in charge, it's not all about you, you don't run this shit.  You have to get out of your own head, interface with and serve other people, and realize that you are a tiny molecule in this larger community of humans where you depend on them and they on you.

One of the more common features of mental illnesses of all types is that people are stuck in their own heads and dominated by their own flawed perceptions and reactions to things.

It sounds kind of like "stop being a selfish prick," but it's far more subtle than that.  I am absolutely not saying that all mental health sufferers are selfish pricks.

AA puts you in a smallish, interdependent community that teaches and reinforces those lessons.  And for a variety of reasons, modern life has discarded a lot of those communities, and, as Brooks observes, people have become increasingly isolated and "self-referential" or inward-dwelling, and mental health and other things have suffered.

You seem to agree with that premise and fail to address the role of community institutions in overcoming that "shitty parenting."  I just happen to agree with him that the experience of community that comes from things like church, scouts, and a lot of other institutions that are discredited now, sometimes for very good reason, leaves a bit of a hole in the "moral education" of children and people in general.

It's a complex problem and the absence of community is but one aspect of it and I think Brooks touches on and acknowldges those other things.

Edited August 16, 2023 by TwiceHorn

[troph 24781]

As a coparent with a galactically shitty parent I can emphatically say much of our problems stem from that. Well that and normalized radical  Christianity. 

[Doc Daneeka 6769]

2 hours ago, YGIFS said:

Preschool graduations are to blame for America getting so cruel again?  Okay. I am going to take my 4.5yo to pre school today.  First day and all.  God willing, just us and maybe her grandparents will attend her little graduation ceremony in nine months time.  We won’t send out announcements or even post photos.  Just a moment for her and her surviving grandparents to enjoy.  
 

if I have to listen to losers whine about an event for three fucking years, then I can sure as shit tolerate positive talk about an event for three hours.  
 

we were always mean.  But we tried to get better and did a more inspiring job at it than most countries.  Our problem now is we suddenly decided being stupid was the cool part.  

It’s not the event. It’s the mindset that every. fucking. thing. a kid does is an event. 

And, as I readily acknowledged, it’s very reductionist but when you lionize all the things you, imo, get overly self-centered kids. Who often turn into overly self-centered adults. Who tend to be narcissistic and mean. 

[troph 24781]

I quit birthdays for the most part. I think they are narcissistic as fuck.

Edited August 16, 2023 by troph

[Doc Daneeka 6769]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

You seem to agree with that premise and fail to address the role of community institutions in overcoming that "shitty parenting."  I just happen to agree with him that the experience of community that comes from things like church, scouts, and a lot of other institutions that are discredited now, sometimes for very good reason, leaves a bit of a hole in the "moral education" of children and people in general.

It's a complex problem and the absence of community is but one aspect of it and I think Brooks touches on and acknowldges those other things.

I can’t really address much my opinion of the role of community institutions, or society at large, without getting into CR territory. A fundamental issue there, imo, is the “you’re not the boss of me” aspect of the situation along with a general tendency of society these days to apply “who are you to judge” and “you don’t know his situation” to the point that you are probably a bigot of some sort if you presume that moral education can even be a thing.

I also think, though, there’s a little bit of a chicken and egg problem with whether the hole in the moral education of children and people in general is due to the “abandonment,” for lack of a better word, of those institutions or whether the hole led to that abandonment. 

When so much seems to turn on which smaller and smaller boxes one wants to use to define oneself, community gets harder and harder, imo. I’m sure a lot of people here have some relatively recent examples of being cast out by friends or even family as unclean due to disagreement about some political, medical, social, moral, or other issue that really doesn’t define whether a person is worth having around.

This ties back to my earlier point that people seem to be increasingly rigid in their own views and less tolerant of other views to the point where malice is often used as an explanation for differing opinions rather than just having different opinions. I don’t know where you’d even start with broad, community-based moral education in that environment… or whether such a discussion would belong anywhere outside CR, in general, or in this thread, in particular.

I’ll just say that I think the current lack of moral education is a case of the people knowing what they want and deserving to get it good and hard. I’ve probably veered outside the purpose of this thread, though I do think finding more common ground with others would ease some of the stress and anxiety people seem to be feeling, even if there’s not complete overlap in beliefs  

 

[Doc Daneeka 6769]

10 minutes ago, troph said:

I quit birthdays for the most part. I think they are narcissistic as fuck.

I have a 5 year old “niece” who found out her gender reveal party was lame by today’s standards so she wants another one. And her mother is planning it. I can’t even. 

[TwiceHorn 31435]

25 minutes ago, Doc Daneeka said:

I can’t really address much my opinion of the role of community institutions, or society at large, without getting into CR territory. A fundamental issue there, imo, is the “you’re not the boss of me” aspect of the situation along with a general tendency of society these days to apply “who are you to judge” and “you don’t know his situation” to the point that you are probably a bigot of some sort if you presume that moral education can even be a thing.

I also think, though, there’s a little bit of a chicken and egg problem with whether the hole in the moral education of children and people in general is due to the “abandonment,” for lack of a better word, of those institutions or whether the hole led to that abandonment. 

When so much seems to turn on which smaller and smaller boxes one wants to use to define oneself, community gets harder and harder, imo. I’m sure a lot of people here have some relatively recent examples of being cast out by friends or even family as unclean due to disagreement about some political, medical, social, moral, or other issue that really doesn’t define whether a person is worth having around.

This ties back to my earlier point that people seem to be increasingly rigid in their own views and less tolerant of other views to the point where malice is often used as an explanation for differing opinions rather than just having different opinions. I don’t know where you’d even start with broad, community-based moral education in that environment… or whether such a discussion would belong anywhere outside CR, in general, or in this thread, in particular.

I’ll just say that I think the current lack of moral education is a case of the people knowing what they want and deserving to get it good and hard. I’ve probably veered outside the purpose of this thread, though I do think finding more common ground with others would ease some of the stress and anxiety people seem to be feeling, even if there’s not complete overlap in beliefs  

 

Good talk, Russ.  Seriously, though I appreciate the thoughtful discourse.  

Ironically, I was raised in a methodist church, free from child abuse and overt white supremacy that actually taught tolerance and respect for other faiths and the actual larger message of Christ, the good part.  I'm an Eagle Scout and had a positive experience there, free from child abuse, etc.  Which is not to say either of those institutions is free of problems.

I also was a mediocre athlete that felt the sting of never or rarely starting and actually being cut once or twice and I don't think I ever got anything like a participation trophy.  So, I had to learn to deal with that adversity at a fairly young age.  It's not mentioned much, but sports are a community institution that survives and thrives, but I think the fundamental nature of it has changed over the last 25 years or so into another "me me me" thing.

Of course, I'm also an addict that has a problem with being self-referential.  So those community institutions and experiences didn't save me.  And I can't blame my parents, either.  They were a bit overbearing as parents of only children tend to be, and that warped me in certain ways leading or feeding into my addictive traits, but they were far from shitty parents.

Edited August 16, 2023 by TwiceHorn

[nbmishoid 949]

Twice

Similarities include the Eagle Scout experience, without abuse.  We had, in our quartermaster’s room, the largest collection of Playboy’s.  So besides the law and the oath and winning camporees, there was plenty of just being boys. 
Second the experience of being a mediocre or worse athlete.  Being well known as a good target to crush on the scout defense was not as much fun as I’d planned.  But the real world lessons learned in those years were terrific.  I’m not so great.  Other people matter.  I should go and be and do better.

A dozen years of Church of Christ only gave me a decade of useless alienation from too many institutions.

[UpperWestside 6159]

This is not from a society wide perspective, but only my own experiences. One of the best ways to understand society around you, as well as making a positive contribution to it, is to be engaged with people. One of the things I feel is important is that everyone should at some point in their existence is to work in a service industry job. Learn to communicate with your fellow humans. Learn how to be compassionate and care for others. While self-care is extremely important so is how you relate and show care and compassion to the world outside of your bubble.

I can also say that this does not come natural to me. Being able to be around people for hours at a time takes a mental toll on me that causes me to just go home and say and do nothing. The wear on an autistic mind from constant people interactions is a lot for me at times and is way more mentally draining than it is for a neurotypical person, but I do it. I am content to just hangout with my two dogs after a long day. However, when I am around people I make the effort to now communicate even when I am not working. Just simple interactions and conversations that will remind you that you are just one of several billion people on the road of life. Last week I helped a woman carry luggage up the subway stairs. I could have hurried up and left her to do it on her own. Taking the time to help this elderly woman made for a pleasant interaction between us and made both our days better. I talked a few minutes after to a guy while I was waiting for some fresh coffee at a bodega on my way to church. We talked about his car being side-swiped a couple of hours before by a likely drunk driver (Hit three total parked cars). I said that perhaps he should be thankful this happened because what if he had gotten in his car and something else had happened while he was driving. His car was damaged, but he was okay. That perspective helped him feel better about what transpired. 
 

Have those conversations with people. The smallest of interactions can be the most beneficial thing you do in someone else’s day. Make doing this everyday be a permanent part of who you are. You’ll be doing your small part to be kind. 

[UpperWestside 6159]

On 8/16/2023 at 10:27 AM, troph said:

I quit birthdays for the most part. I think they are narcissistic as fuck.

Last year I decided that I would take my birthday and use it to celebrate other folks I worked with. I decided to cook them some chicken fajitas and I made it was salsa I made as well. I am not real big on celebrating my birthday so I felt a better use of the day would be to let others know how much they are appreciated. I still had someone bring me a small gift (It was some gummy snacks that were pretty good.) and I thought it was cool.

[TwiceHorn 31435]

15 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

This is not from a society wide perspective, but only my own experiences. One of the best ways to understand society around you, as well as making a positive contribution to it, is to be engaged with people. One of the things I feel is important is that everyone should at some point in their existence is to work in a service industry job. Learn to communicate with your fellow humans. Learn how to be compassionate and care for others. While self-care is extremely important so is how you relate and show care and compassion to the world outside of your bubble.

I can also say that this does not come natural to me. Being able to be around people for hours at a time takes a mental toll on me that causes me to just go home and say and do nothing. The wear on an autistic mind from constant people interactions is a lot for me at times and is way more mentally draining than it is for a neurotypical person, but I do it. I am content to just hangout with my two dogs after a long day. However, when I am around people I make the effort to now communicate even when I am not working. Just simple interactions and conversations that will remind you that you are just one of several billion people on the road of life. Last week I helped a woman carry luggage up the subway stairs. I could have hurried up and left her to do it on her own. Taking the time to help this elderly woman made for a pleasant interaction between us and made both our days better. I talked a few minutes after to a guy while I was waiting for some fresh coffee at a bodega on my way to church. We talked about his car being side-swiped a couple of hours before by a likely drunk driver (Hit three total parked cars). I said that perhaps he should be thankful this happened because what if he had gotten in his car and something else had happened while he was driving. His car was damaged, but he was okay. That perspective helped him feel better about what transpired. 
 

Have those conversations with people. The smallest of interactions can be the most beneficial thing you do in someone else’s day. Make doing this everyday be a permanent part of who you are. You’ll be doing your small part to be kind. 

However  you have come to it, you certainly give the impression of being a person for others.

And yeah, I can relate.  Don't think I'm neuro-atypical, but I am, at some level. fairly introverted.  I can be quite content alone:  alone but not lonely.  Not sure if nature or nurture as an only child.

At the same time, I do seem to crave some social interaction.  But only "so much."  At times, I can be more or less the life of the party and will talk your ear off.  Other times, my "social battery" is drained and I can't.  That was one thing I liked about drinking, it seemed to unlock the social animal in me.

I don't worry too much about it.  But one of the tenets of AA is "radical acceptance," which includes accepting who you are and being an authentic person.  And sometimes I feel like the social animal is a put on, it's not really me.  Ah, progress not perfection, even after 25 years.

[Doc Daneeka 6769]

20 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

This is not from a society wide perspective, but only my own experiences. One of the best ways to understand society around you, as well as making a positive contribution to it, is to be engaged with people. One of the things I feel is important is that everyone should at some point in their existence is to work in a service industry job. Learn to communicate with your fellow humans. Learn how to be compassionate and care for others. While self-care is extremely important so is how you relate and show care and compassion to the world outside of your bubble.

I can also say that this does not come natural to me. Being able to be around people for hours at a time takes a mental toll on me that causes me to just go home and say and do nothing. The wear on an autistic mind from constant people interactions is a lot for me at times and is way more mentally draining than it is for a neurotypical person, but I do it. I am content to just hangout with my two dogs after a long day. However, when I am around people I make the effort to now communicate even when I am not working. Just simple interactions and conversations that will remind you that you are just one of several billion people on the road of life. Last week I helped a woman carry luggage up the subway stairs. I could have hurried up and left her to do it on her own. Taking the time to help this elderly woman made for a pleasant interaction between us and made both our days better. I talked a few minutes after to a guy while I was waiting for some fresh coffee at a bodega on my way to church. We talked about his car being side-swiped a couple of hours before by a likely drunk driver (Hit three total parked cars). I said that perhaps he should be thankful this happened because what if he had gotten in his car and something else had happened while he was driving. His car was damaged, but he was okay. That perspective helped him feel better about what transpired. 
 

Have those conversations with people. The smallest of interactions can be the most beneficial thing you do in someone else’s day. Make doing this everyday be a permanent part of who you are. You’ll be doing your small part to be kind.  

People, in general, drain the holy hell out of me in a way that would make Colin Robinson blush. Unless we’re talking about something that I find hella engaging — Texas football, economics, maybe WoW back in the day — I just can’t for very long. I can do it for short periods and I’m polite to those in service industry jobs — and no one wants me in a service industry job, though some of my calls when I did computer tech support were legendary within the company — but it’s not my forte. 

Back when I went to more Texas away games, there was an older couple who were almost always there, too, and the wife carried an expensive and heavy as fuck purse. So I carried her purse from the tailgates into the stadiums. I’m gigantic. I’m wearing burnt orange. I’m walking into stadiums in Stillwater, Columbus, Colombia, Manhattan, Lawrence, etc. carrying a purse. And hoping a bitch would. It wasn’t as altruistic as helping with luggage, I suppose, but it was a pretty cool ritual for a while. 

[UpperWestside 6159]

7 hours ago, Doc Daneeka said:

People, in general, drain the holy hell out of me in a way that would make Colin Robinson blush. Unless we’re talking about something that I find hella engaging — Texas football, economics, maybe WoW back in the day — I just can’t for very long. I can do it for short periods and I’m polite to those in service industry jobs — and no one wants me in a service industry job, though some of my calls when I did computer tech support were legendary within the company — but it’s not my forte. 

Back when I went to more Texas away games, there was an older couple who were almost always there, too, and the wife carried an expensive and heavy as fuck purse. So I carried her purse from the tailgates into the stadiums. I’m gigantic. I’m wearing burnt orange. I’m walking into stadiums in Stillwater, Columbus, Colombia, Manhattan, Lawrence, etc. carrying a purse. And hoping a bitch would. It wasn’t as altruistic as helping with luggage, I suppose, but it was a pretty cool ritual for a while. 

Oh my gosh you mentioned WoW. I played that game like it was a job for a long time. Good memories and whatnot, but man it was addictive. Service industry jobs can teach better communication skills. We sorely need that as a worldwide society. Staring at phones all day in public has killed communication.
 

I think your example is a good one. You did something that helped someone else out. I think that’s great. I have to say that I probably would have laughed if someone had confronted you and you went full Deebo on them. 

[Doc Daneeka 6769]

2 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

Oh my gosh you mentioned WoW. I played that game like it was a job for a long time. Good memories and whatnot, but man it was addictive. Service industry jobs can teach better communication skills. We sorely need that as a worldwide society. Staring at phones all day in public has killed communication.
 

I think your example is a good one. You did something that helped someone else out. I think that’s great. I have to say that I probably would have laughed if someone had confronted you and you went full Deebo on them. 

Communication skills, I have. Self-control with using them with people who won’t listen or who say silly things, not so much. 

I could play WoW for 12 hours and it seemed like nothing. I still remember the first time I went to Thunder Bluff at night. Or to Stranglethorn Vale. Or logging in on my priest sitting in Dalaran and having all the tanks on my friends list messaging to run stuff. IMO, WotLK was peak WoW. Every so often, I’ll listen to the Grizzly Hills ambient music and decide to play again and, for a while, it’s 2008 again. 

As far as the purse, I suppose they figured that anyone willing to carry a purse in that situation is probably able, or at least willing to try, to make the encounter go very poorly for them.

[HRSchenker 2268]

Today is one of those days I have to remind myself that no one can hurt my feelings without my permission. I'm taking a lot of heat from colleagues for leaving my profession's state association but it has to happen. I've spent 11 years with the group, pay dues every year, and do everything they ask me to do. I call my state rep, call my state senator, call my us house rep, call my us senators, meet with most of them (except Cornyn because his people don't respond), call offices when a bad bill is up for vote, and I go to Austin every legislative session wearing my white coat. When they needed me the most, I stepped up to the plate and delivered. But when I needed them the most they acted like it was beneath them. They'll go hard in the paint for people who try to step out of their comfort zone on the statewide level but not on the local level? This is the thank you I get for loyal support? 

The only reason I bring this up here is because this has been eating at me for an entire year. Every time I see a social media post from them I just get reminded how I wasn't good enough for them to support. Now I'm getting these texts saying how I should re-up for another year, important goals for next year, can't do the hard work without member support, etc. Blah blah blah. Fuck that. 

[Sandman 3403]

On 8/20/2023 at 2:14 PM, UpperWestside said:

One of the things I feel is important is that everyone should at some point in their existence is to work in a service industry job. Learn to communicate with your fellow humans. Learn how to be compassionate and care for others.

I'd say that working jobs like that have caused me to be less compassionate because people can be such assholes. I have people that call my office every day and it's basically "I haven't read the forms or the instructions, I can't comprehend anything being said to me, I don't know how to operate a computer and all of that is someone else's fault. I am incapable of fucking up."

[UpperWestside 6159]

1 hour ago, Sandman said:

I'd say that working jobs like that have caused me to be less compassionate because people can be such assholes. I have people that call my office every day and it's basically "I haven't read the forms or the instructions, I can't comprehend anything being said to me, I don't know how to operate a computer and all of that is someone else's fault. I am incapable of fucking up."

We all have the capability to be that. I do not always spend time attempting to understand everyone that acts like that, but there is usually a reason for someone being that way. I naturally find things like this interesting though so thinking about a person’s reasons for their behavior is probably not going to be as interesting in the types of encounters you have. Having daily face-to-face encounters doing my job makes it fun to me.

[Dnaguy 11915]

I don’t need to get into everything just yet. But having white knuckled it for over a year, I finally just went to the doctor (primary care) and laid on the line… well about 80%. 
It felt good. I haven’t felt that kind of relief in a while. 
Hopefully some meds can start to get me back closer to normal.

 

But my question is, how do you get the spark back again?

 

I love my kids. They are beautiful, healthy, happy girls who I adore. I live in a great house and have friends. I’m married and that’s… going. It’s not torture. But is sure as shit isn’t great.

 

But I feel as I am getting to middle age that all that stress , and anxiety and my depression that I could ‘get through’ has won. And even on my better days it just lurks in the corner. It’s as if life finally wore me down  enough for it to start to win. There was a point in my life where I can say that,  ‘Idk what will happen but I’ll come out better in the end.’ The last 3 years are not following that script.

 

But as a whole, I keep thinking about how others have had it far worse and made it through. WTF is my malfunction? Hell both my grandfathers fought in the Pacific and one in Korean. My brother has way more baggage from Afghanistan than i have. 
 

Also navigating the healthcare system for mental health shit is fubar. I should have gotten help a long time ago but the roadblocks are many and even with insurance it’s stupid hard. 
 

idk. It’s super late and I can sleep. Maybe others deal with this too. Idk. But it felt slightly better to get that off my chest.

[tigol 2395]

4 hours ago, Dnaguy said:

I don’t need to get into everything just yet. But having white knuckled it for over a year, I finally just went to the doctor (primary care) and laid on the line… well about 80%. 
It felt good. I haven’t felt that kind of relief in a while. 
Hopefully some meds can start to get me back closer to normal.

 

But my question is, how do you get the spark back again?

 

I love my kids. They are beautiful, healthy, happy girls who I adore. I live in a great house and have friends. I’m married and that’s… going. It’s not torture. But is sure as shit isn’t great.

 

But I feel as I am getting to middle age that all that stress , and anxiety and my depression that I could ‘get through’ has won. And even on my better days it just lurks in the corner. It’s as if life finally wore me down  enough for it to start to win. There was a point in my life where I can say that,  ‘Idk what will happen but I’ll come out better in the end.’ The last 3 years are not following that script.

 

But as a whole, I keep thinking about how others have had it far worse and made it through. WTF is my malfunction? Hell both my grandfathers fought in the Pacific and one in Korean. My brother has way more baggage from Afghanistan than i have. 
 

Also navigating the healthcare system for mental health shit is fubar. I should have gotten help a long time ago but the roadblocks are many and even with insurance it’s stupid hard. 
 

idk. It’s super late and I can sleep. Maybe others deal with this too. Idk. But it felt slightly better to get that off my chest.

I'm with you.  I knew something had been "off" with me for years, but I didn't address it at the time.  I took care of some anxiety issues with a therapist years ago, felt better, and moved on.  I'm now putting in the work with a new therapist because I became depressed.  It scared the absolute crap out of me.  I feel like I've turned a corner, but I need some damn tools to recognize my moods and take action when I'm sinking low and/or beating myself up.

I prefer to think of this going forward as "mental health hygiene" where checking in on my moods and taking action will be as routine as brushing my teeth.  I refuse to get an Apple watch, though.  Talk about anxiety inducing.

[troph 24781]

you definitely aren’t alone. Young kids phase or middle age and coming out of a pandemic into an inflation induced economic fuckstorm is a pile of utter dog shit. That’s just a fact. 
 

mental health hygiene is a great phrase too. I think we were conditioned to believe either we are a-okay on auto pilot or we needed the white straight jacket and padded rooms. 
 

reality is much different. Diet (holy shit diet!!!), exercise, talking to someone, social group, working on our marriages, finding meaning, possibly meds, making changes that help, learning self talk and breathing techniques and on and on. Mental health isn’t automatic. 
 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by troph

[Lidig8r 1870]

On 9/23/2023 at 1:36 AM, Dnaguy said:

I don’t need to get into everything just yet. But having white knuckled it for over a year, I finally just went to the doctor (primary care) and laid on the line… well about 80%. 
It felt good. I haven’t felt that kind of relief in a while. 
Hopefully some meds can start to get me back closer to normal.

 

But my question is, how do you get the spark back again?

 

I love my kids. They are beautiful, healthy, happy girls who I adore. I live in a great house and have friends. I’m married and that’s… going. It’s not torture. But is sure as shit isn’t great.

 

But I feel as I am getting to middle age that all that stress , and anxiety and my depression that I could ‘get through’ has won. And even on my better days it just lurks in the corner. It’s as if life finally wore me down  enough for it to start to win. There was a point in my life where I can say that,  ‘Idk what will happen but I’ll come out better in the end.’ The last 3 years are not following that script.

 

But as a whole, I keep thinking about how others have had it far worse and made it through. WTF is my malfunction? Hell both my grandfathers fought in the Pacific and one in Korean. My brother has way more baggage from Afghanistan than i have. 
 

Also navigating the healthcare system for mental health shit is fubar. I should have gotten help a long time ago but the roadblocks are many and even with insurance it’s stupid hard. 
 

idk. It’s super late and I can sleep. Maybe others deal with this too. Idk. But it felt slightly better to get that off my chest.

I strongly believe that everyone handles their own adversity, their own obstacles, their own pain in individually unique ways. To compare your situation or obstacles to what you perceive other people's obstacles is a non-starter. Their obstacles are theirs. Their emotions, their strengths, their weaknesses, their pain, their resolve, are uniquely theirs.

Yes, getting help for mental health issues is incredibly difficult. And to find a skilled professional who "clicks" with you is as difficult as finding a spouse. So many therapists are so fractured and in pain. In fact, many go into therapy to seek help or solutions for their own problems, through their patients ... counter-transference is very real.

Why shouldn't you absolutely grill your therapist with any and all questions you have?  They are asking you to trust them. They first need to establish that they are worthy of your trust by opening up.

You are you. Embrace who you are ... your feelings, your emotions, your strength. And if you fear the ramifications? Remember what fear is.  The only place that fear exists is within our thoughts of what might occur in the future.  It does not currently exist and may not ever exist. And to let it control our actions and feelings is near insanity.

Fuck fear! And if you get hurt.. and you very well may.  Falling does not have to define us. As long as you pick yourself up and look to the future with even greater resolve.

[UpperWestside 6159]

On 9/23/2023 at 2:36 AM, Dnaguy said:

I don’t need to get into everything just yet. But having white knuckled it for over a year, I finally just went to the doctor (primary care) and laid on the line… well about 80%. 
It felt good. I haven’t felt that kind of relief in a while. 
Hopefully some meds can start to get me back closer to normal.

 

But my question is, how do you get the spark back again?

 

I love my kids. They are beautiful, healthy, happy girls who I adore. I live in a great house and have friends. I’m married and that’s… going. It’s not torture. But is sure as shit isn’t great.

 

But I feel as I am getting to middle age that all that stress , and anxiety and my depression that I could ‘get through’ has won. And even on my better days it just lurks in the corner. It’s as if life finally wore me down  enough for it to start to win. There was a point in my life where I can say that,  ‘Idk what will happen but I’ll come out better in the end.’ The last 3 years are not following that script.

 

But as a whole, I keep thinking about how others have had it far worse and made it through. WTF is my malfunction? Hell both my grandfathers fought in the Pacific and one in Korean. My brother has way more baggage from Afghanistan than i have. 
 

Also navigating the healthcare system for mental health shit is fubar. I should have gotten help a long time ago but the roadblocks are many and even with insurance it’s stupid hard. 
 

idk. It’s super late and I can sleep. Maybe others deal with this too. Idk. But it felt slightly better to get that off my chest.

Thank you for sharing all of this with us. You are a good person and though you are hurting on the inside just know that there are people here for you. Your reason for hurting, as stated eloquently by @Lidig8r, is unique to you. So many of us will listen to you anytime you want to talk.

 

This is off subject, but you mentioned your grandfathers both served in the Pacific. I would love to hear any stories you have about them as I have read extensively about the Pacific War. If you do not wish to share I understand, but you can PM if you do. I have a friend whose grandfather served in New Guinea and The Philippines and I am getting him to obtain his grandfather’s records because he wants to take a trip over there to see the places his grandfather served at.

Edited September 26, 2023 by UpperWestside

[Doc Daneeka 6769]

First off, let me say “fuck dementia with a rusty shovel.”

Second, I’m mostly venting, because I’m the one who’s just supposed to handle things and I’d rather not pile this on the people who rely on me just to handle things. 

Anyway, my mother had three kids by the time she was 21 and got pregnant with me at 16. My biological father was/is a monumental shitstain on humanity… the proverbial “drinker and a fiend.” They were divorced before I started kindergarten. 

So my mom remarried when I was around five. This guy got married knowing he’d have the responsibility for helping to raise three kids who weren’t biologically his, one of whom is mentally handicapped, almost assuredly due to physical abuse on my mom by the aforementioned shitstain while she was pregnant. 

This is the guy who played catch with me when I wanted to play baseball. Who busted his ass to get home from work and took me to practice and sat in the damned heat while — I know now, but didn’t think about then — he had to have been tired and hungry and just wanted to relax. He’s the one who sat in the cold and the rain watching me play football. Every fucking game. And so on and so on. 

Well, he’s been forgetting things for a while. And getting confused. And just generally declining, mentally. Then, this weekend, he couldn’t remember his first grandchild’s name. Fuuuuck.

This has been weighing on my mother for a while, which means it’s been weighing on me for a while. My kids have their own lives, I get that, but their granddad’s playclock is winding down and I need to get them to understand that enough for them to make time for him without sounding like a nag or a ghoul. My mother has spent essentially her entire adult life, 50+ years, with him and she’s not handling it well and will handle it less well in the future, and all of that is going to fall on me handle, probably sooner than later. I don’t know how she’s going to handle the inevitable endgame here, but I’m not optimistic.

I’m aware that I’m not the only person this affects, and not the only person who’s ever experienced this, but I’m supposed to be the Winston Wolf in this scenario and just fucking handle things. No amount of talking is going to change any of that, but this is going to suck. 

/end vent

 

[Lidig8r 1870]

2 hours ago, Doc Daneeka said:

First off, let me say “fuck dementia with a rusty shovel.”

Second, I’m mostly venting, because I’m the one who’s just supposed to handle things and I’d rather not pile this on the people who rely on me just to handle things. 

Anyway, my mother had three kids by the time she was 21 and got pregnant with me at 16. My biological father was/is a monumental shitstain on humanity… the proverbial “drinker and a fiend.” They were divorced before I started kindergarten. 

So my mom remarried when I was around five. This guy got married knowing he’d have the responsibility for helping to raise three kids who weren’t biologically his, one of whom is mentally handicapped, almost assuredly due to physical abuse on my mom by the aforementioned shitstain while she was pregnant. 

This is the guy who played catch with me when I wanted to play baseball. Who busted his ass to get home from work and took me to practice and sat in the damned heat while — I know now, but didn’t think about then — he had to have been tired and hungry and just wanted to relax. He’s the one who sat in the cold and the rain watching me play football. Every fucking game. And so on and so on. 

Well, he’s been forgetting things for a while. And getting confused. And just generally declining, mentally. Then, this weekend, he couldn’t remember his first grandchild’s name. Fuuuuck.

This has been weighing on my mother for a while, which means it’s been weighing on me for a while. My kids have their own lives, I get that, but their granddad’s playclock is winding down and I need to get them to understand that enough for them to make time for him without sounding like a nag or a ghoul. My mother has spent essentially her entire adult life, 50+ years, with him and she’s not handling it well and will handle it less well in the future, and all of that is going to fall on me handle, probably sooner than later. I don’t know how she’s going to handle the inevitable endgame here, but I’m not optimistic.

I’m aware that I’m not the only person this affects, and not the only person who’s ever experienced this, but I’m supposed to be the Winston Wolf in this scenario and just fucking handle things. No amount of talking is going to change any of that, but this is going to suck. 

/end vent

 

uggggggg... Sometimes the words are just not there.

But, an unsolicited suggestion here. Start making audio recordings of you just talking with him. Get him to talk about his relationship with you, thank him for being there. Tell him how much it meant to you. A recorded transcription of the most important things in his life he can recall.

Maybe then, find one of the more poignant stories he tells ... and play this for your kids. Let them here a message of past love and commitment and courage from your "real dad." In that way perhaps you aren't going to sound like a nag or a ghoul. The voice will be that of a man who made a difference in so many people's lives.

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

I need to vent in this thread as soon as I have time and the words. Last couple of weeks have got me all fucked up. It’s nice to have a place that doesn’t feel as cold and anonymous as say Reddit nor as familiar as family and friends to talk things through. Or even just write it out.

[Sandman 3403]

My wife and I were chatting when she got home from work yesterday, talking about our days. She mentioned that her assistant was going to be off on Thursday and Friday. I asked why and she said "That's the anniversary of her mom's death and she always takes off that day". I stopped for a second and realized that the anniversary of my mom's death....is today. 16 years ago. It seems like much longer. My sister and I used to call and talk on this date every year, but I don't remember doing that for quite a few years. I was going to call my dad for unrelated reasons but now I think I'll wait till tomorrow. I don't know if he'll bring it up and I just can't handle listening to him talk about it. 

[UpperWestside 6159]

There are some days where I feel out of sorts and today felt like one of those days. I went to the store and while I was in there an older gentleman was buying a rotisserie chicken. He started to talk to me and I just listen as he tells me how he will cut it up and put it in some airtight containers to eat during the week. I could’ve just politely went on my way, but in my life I have learned to just stop and talk with older folks because often they want to chat because they may live home alone and this is their way to stay in contact with the world around them. We talked for at least a good 5-10 minutes. I shared a few short stories with him and he shared some interesting stories with me. 
 

I believe daily interactions like this are both important, but also fun because I am learning about someone else’s walk through this life. I am glad I have always had the patience to stop and want to listen to folks. A random meeting like that in the store was cool to me and it makes my day better and hopefully his as well.

Edited October 17, 2023 by UpperWestside

[UpperWestside 6159]

On 9/26/2023 at 1:24 PM, Patricio Swayze said:

I need to vent in this thread as soon as I have time and the words. Last couple of weeks have got me all fucked up. It’s nice to have a place that doesn’t feel as cold and anonymous as say Reddit nor as familiar as family and friends to talk things through. Or even just write it out.

Feel free to vent some when you have time to do so.

[Lidig8r 1870]

Some days are just meant to be more difficult than others.

https://adadsjourneywitheatingdisorders.home.blog/2023/10/30/to-my-morgan/

[Lidig8r 1870]

Going to be posting this in the Daily Texan part of this board as well since it deals with physician assisted suicide for mental health issues. An incredibly divisive, controversial topic.

This article came out in the Washington Post this past week.  Your boy here is mentioned in it, has a photo of me and my daughter. (I tried to squeeze in a surly reference but it ended up on the cutting room floor). [I hope it's not behind a paywall. If so, let me know and I will see what I can do to link the article, gratis]

Anyhoo, on November 17, a number of mental health professionals are meeting in Denver to start a new discussion on this issue. And yes, I will be in attendance. 

Greater tomorrows always start with that first, hesitant step.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/style/of-interest/2023/11/01/anorexia-suicide-controversy-jennifer-gaudiani/

[Doc Daneeka 6769]

So, a while back, I posted a vent/semi-rant about my father’s dementia and the progression thereof. Well, the day of the OU game he died. So, yeah. 

It feels like my mother is heading that way, now. They were married for over 50 years and this is like the gut punch of gut punches for her. 

The holidays are used to be her thing. Thanksgiving has been at their house for my daughters’ entire lives. Now she’s, understandably, trudging through their house like a zombie and had no interest in any of the usual stuff. 

My kids have taken off work and we’re going to go over there today to try to put Thanksgiving dinner back on track and try to get her interested in it. Or in something. 

I have no idea how this is going to go. 

[Doc Daneeka 6769]

Well, we made it through Thanksgiving, somehow. Having people around helping her cook and talking and keeping stuff going on in the house seemed to help. 

I hate being around other people when I watch Texas play, and this season’s importance kind of took a hit, but she asked me to stay on the Friday after and watch Texas play Tech, so I did. Luckily, it was an old-fashioned, Tech is in Austin beatdown, so that was good. 

Christmas is the next hurdle, but she’s been baking cookies, so maybe things will turn out better than I feared. She actually wanted to talk about the Big 12 Championship game, which is rare. Probably just her method of staying connected, but that’s fine. 

[UpperWestside 6159]

On 12/6/2023 at 2:22 PM, Doc Daneeka said:

Well, we made it through Thanksgiving, somehow. Having people around helping her cook and talking and keeping stuff going on in the house seemed to help. 

I hate being around other people when I watch Texas play, and this season’s importance kind of took a hit, but she asked me to stay on the Friday after and watch Texas play Tech, so I did. Luckily, it was an old-fashioned, Tech is in Austin beatdown, so that was good. 

Christmas is the next hurdle, but she’s been baking cookies, so maybe things will turn out better than I feared. She actually wanted to talk about the Big 12 Championship game, which is rare. Probably just her method of staying connected, but that’s fine. 

Thank you for letting us into your world. My mother took the loss of my dad hard back in 2011. She misses him still everyday and that he never got to live long enough to meet his grandkids. Just be present for your mother. Talk to her everyday if you can. It will help her feel needed. The first holiday season without a parent or other loved one is rough, but just keep being there and let your mom know how important she is and how much everyone loves her. Little gestures of kindness go such a long way to someone that is grieving.

[Doc Daneeka 6769]

6 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

Thank you for letting us into your world. My mother took the loss of my dad hard back in 2011. She misses him still everyday and that he never got to live long enough to meet his grandkids. Just be present for your mother. Talk to her everyday if you can. It will help her feel needed. The first holiday season without a parent or other loved one is rough, but just keep being there and let your mom know how important she is and how much everyone loves her. Little gestures of kindness go such a long way to someone that is grieving.

Thanks for the response. I said a few posts ago that I’m the family problem-solver, not the problem-haver, so I don’t really have an outlet other than my dogs and they’re sick of hearing about it. 

My daughters still come over to do baking and cookies for Christmas, so we invited her to that. Then we’ll probably go get some Tex-Mex. That always makes everyone feel better. 

[UpperWestside 6159]

5 hours ago, Doc Daneeka said:

Thanks for the response. I said a few posts ago that I’m the family problem-solver, not the problem-haver, so I don’t really have an outlet other than my dogs and they’re sick of hearing about it. 

My daughters still come over to do baking and cookies for Christmas, so we invited her to that. Then we’ll probably go get some Tex-Mex. That always makes everyone feel better. 

You’re very welcome. If dogs could talk Hoo boy would they have some stories to tell about us!

I believe that sometimes when you are often in the position of solving the problems of others that it can be overwhelming when you have some of your own. It can be difficult to turn to others for help. I have had far more than my own share of self-inflicted problems, but I also am the person that listens intently to everyone else and their own issues.
 

When you feel like there is no one you can go to just keep coming here. There are so many people in this thread that have given out some incredible advice from their own lived experience. Go enjoy some Tex-Mex with your family. If you want something you can add with a more personal touch for your mother I can PM you one of my salsa recipes. I have all kinds from mild to burning hot that I will gladly share. Being in the kitchen with your mom and daughters doing this would be fun if you want to attempt it. 

[Doc Daneeka 6769]

3 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

You’re very welcome. If dogs could talk Hoo boy would they have some stories to tell about us!

I believe that sometimes when you are often in the position of solving the problems of others that it can be overwhelming when you have some of your own. It can be difficult to turn to others for help. I have had far more than my own share of self-inflicted problems, but I also am the person that listens intently to everyone else and their own issues.
 

When you feel like there is no one you can go to just keep coming here. There are so many people in this thread that have given out some incredible advice from their own lived experience. Go enjoy some Tex-Mex with your family. If you want something you can add with a more personal touch for your mother I can PM you one of my salsa recipes. I have all kinds from mild to burning hot that I will gladly share. Being in the kitchen with your mom and daughters doing this would be fun if you want to attempt it. 

I make a lot of salsa, but trying new recipes isn’t a bad thing. I’d be interested in something that would be hot enough to take off a few layers of cells from the inside of someone’s mouth… or maybe their hand, if spilled. 

[UpperWestside 6159]

36 minutes ago, Doc Daneeka said:

I make a lot of salsa, but trying new recipes isn’t a bad thing. I’d be interested in something that would be hot enough to take off a few layers of cells from the inside of someone’s mouth… or maybe their hand, if spilled. 

Years ago a friend from grade school that has been really successful in opening fast food restaurants attempted to convince me to make all these salsa recipes and sell them to restaurants and in stores. Too much of a headache for me to attempt so I have mostly just made it for friends when they request it. I never have written down a single recipe, but I will recite from memory some approximate stuff for a superheated salsa. I did it once for a friend who requested it back in Texas. I did not want to make it, but he wanted it. It ended with me getting flipped off while he was drinking milk to try and get the burning sensation out of his mouth. I told him it would be too hot, but he insisted. 😂

[cactusflinthead 27598]

4 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

There are so many people in this thread that have given out some incredible advice from their own lived experience

Including you. You're a regular contributor. 

 

[Bozo_Casanova 26432]

Sharing this because I suspect a lot of people here are in this boat.

I’m making a lot of changes right now. One of those changes is that a couple months ago I started taking medication to treat the very-obvious-to-everyone untreated ADHD that became more of a disadvantage than asset in the last 3-4 years.
The difference has been profound and positive for a variety of reasons, mainly that I’m much more effective, which makes me happier with myself, and I’m easier to deal with for friends and family, which makes them happier with me, which makes me happier with myself. 
It’s a very low dose and I only take it on weekdays for both health reasons and to avoid dependency. The downside of that strategy is that weekends have taken on sort of a hazy, sluggish quality, which I realize now is what used to be the norm. But the upshot is that I’m happier now. I crushed my interviews, I started a new job, I’m making more money, I’m working on my relationship with my wife as we approach being empty nesters, and I’m finishing every day inbox zero. This too shall pass, but this is a good time and I’m taking care of myself. Y’all do the same, whatever that is for you. 

[troph 24781]

Productivity is such a powerful tool for mental health. That’s awesome to hear. 

[Bozo_Casanova 26432]

47 minutes ago, troph said:

Productivity is such a powerful tool for mental health. That’s awesome to hear. 

Thank you. I honestly had no idea until a few weeks ago and I’m 50.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Bozo_Casanova

[Anastasis 23455]

2 hours ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Sharing this because I suspect a lot of people here are in this boat.

I’m making a lot of changes right now. One of those changes is that a couple months ago I started taking medication to treat the very-obvious-to-everyone untreated ADHD that became more of a disadvantage than asset in the last 3-4 years.
The difference has been profound and positive for a variety of reasons, mainly that I’m much more effective, which makes me happier with myself, and I’m easier to deal with for friends and family, which makes them happier with me, which makes me happier with myself. 
It’s a very low dose and I only take it on weekdays for both health reasons and to avoid dependency. The downside of that strategy is that weekends have taken on sort of a hazy, sluggish quality, which I realize now is what used to be the norm. But the upshot is that I’m happier now. I crushed my interviews, I started a new job, I’m making more money, I’m working on my relationship with my wife as we approach being empty nesters, and I’m finishing every day inbox zero. This too shall pass, but this is a good time and I’m taking care of myself. Y’all do the same, whatever that is for you. 

Curious how you approached this, with you pcp or straight to a specialist?

[Bozo_Casanova 26432]

17 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Curious how you approached this, with you pcp or straight to a specialist?

Great question- I went to my regular doctor (at One Medical btw, which I love), who referred me for an assessment, and then my pcp prescribed Vyvanse. 

Meth is a hell of a drug, man. I can’t imagine imagine what recreational doses are like. I mean I’m on a time release version of the lowest dose they make. And I’m about 215. The best way I know how to describe the feeling is that in my normal state I’ve got a bunch of different tracks playing at once completely on their own time, and the medicine brings them together, in perfectly syncopated rhythm about 30 minutes after I take it, and it stays that way for about 12 hours.

So Monday mornings at about 7am I’m wrapping up the first cup of coffee and all of a sudden it’s like 

 

also I don’t snack, which is also good.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Bozo_Casanova

[BearSchlong 8083]

Coincidentally, I began taking Straterra about 6 weeks ago, on the advice of my psychiatrist. Too early to tell the overall effects. I didn’t even realize there were non stimulant options.

[Bozo_Casanova 26432]

7 hours ago, BearSchlong said:

Coincidentally, I began taking Straterra about 6 weeks ago, on the advice of my psychiatrist. Too early to tell the overall effects. I didn’t even realize there were non stimulant options.

Please report back. Would love to hear your experience with that one.