APD didnt exactly give this guy time to react

[52-80 19,245]

4 hours ago, 52-80 said:

…, or a gun was raised towards the cop (camera didnt show either way), shooting at him seemed premature

I watched again and gun def wasnt raised towards anyone. Gun was pointed at ground when cop yelled “drop the gun” and then they immediately fired

[DixonHur 11,367]

It's actually duplex, and one of my old trainers lives in the other side.  Needless to say, she was royally freaked out.

 

 

[Nivek 16,984]

5 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

It's actually duplex, and one of my old trainers lives in the other side.  Needless to say, she was royally freaked out.

 

 

What kind of trainer, and does she need comforting? /Surly

[DixonHur 11,367]

2 minutes ago, Nivek said:

What kind of trainer, and does she need comforting? /Surly

Fitness

[jimmyjazz 46,130]

Well, this thread just took a turn for the better.

[52-80 19,245]

6 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Fitness

Knee too knotty. 

Still, did you put your dixonhur?

[Brisketexan 105,329]

1 hour ago, Porterhouse said:

This notion that we are going to have front line mental health pros in harm’s way is simple, and not well thought out. If you’re mentally unstable to the point you’re firing guns at your house, I don’t want anyone but the police responding to them. You’re put yourself at a point of no return and if you die, you die. 

Plenty of other cases of mentally ill people getting killed by cops point to this being a larger problem.  And the plan is not to have cars of "Care Bear Squads" or some shit going around and trying to hug it out when there's a mental health crisis.

The points are:

1) we should have a better system that puts people into care systems BEFORE they end up in crisis, and 

2) when a call is for a mental health crisis, have specially trained and capable responders go WITH the cops, so they can help guide and hopefully defuse the situation.

If you think that in our history in this state, there haven't been eleventy billion cases of someone being mentally ill, or just upset, or drunk, or high, or some combination of those, firing a gun in or at their own property (not like no Texan has ever shot his TV after a Cowboys loss), you haven't been paying attention.  Those people almost always do NOT deserve to get shot the instant a cop shows up at their property.  If a person is dangerous, but can possibly be talked out of being a danger, we should want there to be every reasonable opportunity for that to happen.  In this case (or any case), if that person has a gun and raises it towards the cops.....what's gonna happen is what's gonna happen, we all get that.

Oh, and I mean, we might oughta just CONSIDER some mechanisms that would make it less likely for batshit crazy people to wield firearms, but you know, just spitballin' here.

[ztejas 43,534]

1 hour ago, Nivek said:

He didn't point the gun at the cops.  It was down when they unloaded on him. 

Saying he didn't point the gun at the cops is an irrelevant technicality. He basically had the gun in ready position while facing them and had already fired multiple shots less than 10 seconds prior.

No cop is going to risk their life to wait and see if he raises his barrel from there and starts shooting and they shouldn't have to. They aren't Doc Holiday. 

If he HADN'T already discharged multiple rounds then I'd be more likely to agree that shooting him that quickly is overdoing it.

Edited December 2, 2022 by ztejas

[ChuckNorrisActionJeans 2,682]

what's the point of telling someone to drop their gun if the cops are going to shoot right then regardless?

[Brisketexan 105,329]

3 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Saying he didn't point the gun at the cops is an irrelevant technicality. He basically had the gun in ready position while facing them and had already fired multiple shots less than 10 seconds prior.

No cop is going to risk their life to wait and see if he raises his barrel from there and starts shooting and they shouldn't have to. They aren't Doc Holiday. 

If he HADN'T already discharged multiple rounds then I'd be more likely to agree that shooting him that quickly is overdoing it.

You raise an interesting point, and one that many of us have made with respect to all of the "open carry" gun nut types out there today.  As someone who has carried and shouldered more than a couple of long guns in my day, I damn well know that carrying a gun at a low ready means that I am ready to shoulder and fire at a moment's notice.  Yes, in a situation like this, him already having fired adds to the evidence of him being a threat, but let's just back up to the fact of him carrying at a low ready.

I do think it's arguable that someone carrying in such a fashion is inherently threatening imminent action with the weapon.  It's functionally impossible for me to know whether you're just toting your gun that way to look like a Gravy SEAL, or whether you are carrying it that way because you intend to immediately raise it and send multiple 5.56 rounds into my torso.  Personally, I think the answer is "if you have a gun on you in public, don't put your fucking hands on it, lest I deem you a threat."  I mean, that's beside the point of "don't open carry, you fucking psycho" - I assume that point is understood, but I also understand that ship has sailed.  

Don't touch your gun around me, and we won't have any problems.  Put your hands on it.....and shit may happen to you like happened in the video above.

All of this is in addition to and aside from the problems of 1) no real mental healthcare apparatus, 2) no real limitation on the dangerously mentally ill acquiring/possessing weapons, and 3) the cops not being equipped with all the tools to handle potentially dangerous mental health calls.

[jimmyjazz 46,130]

Had he fired his weapon anywhere besides into his own house?  Not that the cops would have necessarily known that, but if he had actually been spraying bullets around the neighborhood, to me that takes a lot of heat off the cops' decision-making.

[ztejas 43,534]

11 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

All of this is in addition to and aside from the problems of 1) no real mental healthcare apparatus, 2) no real limitation on the dangerously mentally ill acquiring/possessing weapons, and 3) the cops not being equipped with all the tools to handle potentially dangerous mental health calls.

He could have just been drugged out. If that's the case it's somewhat of a personal accountability issue, too. 

The main reason I don't own a gun is because of how fucked up I get sometimes. I don't need a gun in my residence when I'm in that state (I don't need a gun at all, which is another reason i dont own one). I've woken up enough times over the years wondering "why the fuck did I do that last night?". I'd rather not add a firearm into that mix. 

[Brisketexan 105,329]

1 minute ago, ztejas said:

He could have just been drugged out. If that's the case it's somewhat of a personal accountability issue, too. 

The main reason I don't own a gun is because of how fucked up I get sometimes. I don't need a gun in my residence when I'm in that state (I don't need a gun at all, which is another reason i dont own one). I've woken up enough times over the years wondering "why the fuck did I do that last night?". I'd rather not add a firearm into that mix. 

I commend you for your sound decisionmaking.  At least on the "I shouldn't have a gun" thing.  Seriously.

I just don't think that being mentally ill, or being intoxicated, should be a death sentence.  There still may and will be circumstances where deadly force is warranted, but man.....I would think we'd want a system that would have a REDUCED likelihood of that happening to our fellow human beings.

[ztejas 43,534]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I commend you for your sound decisionmaking.  At least on the "I shouldn't have a gun" thing.  Seriously.

I just don't think that being mentally ill, or being intoxicated, should be a death sentence.  There still may and will be circumstances where deadly force is warranted, but man.....I would think we'd want a system that would have a REDUCED likelihood of that happening to our fellow human beings.

Yeah. It's asking a bit much to expect everyone that doesn't need an AR to not buy one. 

[deadshank 24,653]

26 minutes ago, ChuckNorrisActionJeans said:

what's the point of telling someone to drop their gun if the cops are going to shoot right then regardless?

1 lbs trigger pressure settings can get dicey. 

[Blotto 23,574]

I'm usually  on the "fuck the police" side of things. I have no issues with what I saw in that video. The easy way to not get shot by the police for running around your property in a densely populated urban neighborhood firing an assault weapon at night, is simply to not run around your property in a densely populated urban neighborhood firing an assault weapon at night. Lets meet this weeks lucky contestant on FAFO. 

[deadshank 24,653]

59 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Fitness

Looks like she's trying to avoid stepping in a pile of dog crap.

[Guest]

52 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Plenty of other cases of mentally ill people getting killed by cops point to this being a larger problem.  And the plan is not to have cars of "Care Bear Squads" or some shit going around and trying to hug it out when there's a mental health crisis.

The points are:

1) we should have a better system that puts people into care systems BEFORE they end up in crisis, and 

2) when a call is for a mental health crisis, have specially trained and capable responders go WITH the cops, so they can help guide and hopefully defuse the situation.

If you think that in our history in this state, there haven't been eleventy billion cases of someone being mentally ill, or just upset, or drunk, or high, or some combination of those, firing a gun in or at their own property (not like no Texan has ever shot his TV after a Cowboys loss), you haven't been paying attention.  Those people almost always do NOT deserve to get shot the instant a cop shows up at their property.  If a person is dangerous, but can possibly be talked out of being a danger, we should want there to be every reasonable opportunity for that to happen.  In this case (or any case), if that person has a gun and raises it towards the cops.....what's gonna happen is what's gonna happen, we all get that.

Oh, and I mean, we might oughta just CONSIDER some mechanisms that would make it less likely for batshit crazy people to wield firearms, but you know, just spitballin' here.

I agree with a lot of your post but if you’re firing your weapon in the neighborhood, and you get shot, I don’t care if you die. On your last paragraph I know you’re being facetious but I believe we ought to do a hell of a lot more than this. However, once you’re at a point where you’re discharging your weapon, you’ve thereby lost any ability to garner empathy from me, mental illness or not. 

[ztejas 43,534]

13 minutes ago, Blotto said:

I'm usually  on the "fuck the police" side of things.

Me too. In case I needed to clear that up for anyone. 

And I've had largely positive interactions with APD. I think they generally do a good job.

[Guest]

43 minutes ago, ztejas said:

He could have just been drugged out. If that's the case it's somewhat of a personal accountability issue, too. 

The main reason I don't own a gun is because of how fucked up I get sometimes. I don't need a gun in my residence when I'm in that state (I don't need a gun at all, which is another reason i dont own one). I've woken up enough times over the years wondering "why the fuck did I do that last night?". I'd rather not add a firearm into that mix. 

Exactly my thought process on gun ownership. 

[Updawg 2,286]

He could have just been drugged out. If that's the case it's somewhat of a personal accountability issue, too. 
The main reason I don't own a gun is because of how fucked up I get sometimes. I don't need a gun in my residence when I'm in that state (I don't need a gun at all, which is another reason i dont own one). I've woken up enough times over the years wondering "why the fuck did I do that last night?". I'd rather not add a firearm into that mix. 

Are you me?

[Nivek 16,984]

3 hours ago, DixonHur said:

Fitness

and the comforting part?

[Judge Roybeanbag 11,820]

2 hours ago, Blotto said:

I'm usually  on the "fuck the police" side of things. I have no issues with what I saw in that video. The easy way to not get shot by the police for running around your property in a densely populated urban neighborhood firing an assault weapon at night, is simply to not run around your property in a densely populated urban neighborhood firing an assault weapon at night. Lets meet this weeks lucky contestant on FAFO. 

That’s where I’m at regarding the cops, if I personally ran across a nutcase shooting off an extremely deadly weapon, I’m not going to give him the benefit of the doubt.  That said, and here’s cloak room, why the fuck should the cops or the citizenry have to deal with a mentally ill person with a goddamned assault rifle?

[Biff Tannen 45,734]

5 hours ago, Nivek said:

 The job of law enforcement is dangerous.  If they cannot handle the danger, then THEY SHOULDN'T BE COPS!   It is not like this is a fucking surprise element of the job.

This, this, this, and more this.  Don't want the possibility of getting shot?  Being a cop isn't for you. 

[ChickenSandwich 9,852]

1 hour ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

That’s where I’m at regarding the cops, if I personally ran across a nutcase shooting off an extremely deadly weapon, I’m not going to give him the benefit of the doubt.  That said, and here’s cloak room, why the fuck should the cops or the citizenry have to deal with a mentally ill person with a goddamned assault rifle?

Not to disagree with your point, but is it any different if he is firing a hand cannon instead?

Edited December 3, 2022 by ChickenSandwich

[Steel Shank 9,431]

I bet that dude would rather be laying pipe than be in the position he's in now.

[Nivek 16,984]

That’s where I’m at regarding the cops, if I personally ran across a nutcase shooting off an extremely deadly weapon, I’m not going to give him the benefit of the doubt.  That said, and here’s cloak room, why the fuck should the cops or the citizenry have to deal with a mentally ill person with a goddamned assault rifle?

Just arriving and blasting is not their job.

Remember this?

https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/equality/560798-police-chief-hails-good-guy-with-a-gun-after-officer-kills/

[Judge Roybeanbag 11,820]

11 hours ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Not to disagree with your point, but is it any different if he is firing a hand cannon instead?

No, it’s not.  It’s just sad that we as a society can’t figure out how to balance freedom vs mental incapacity so that we don’t have a huge population of nutcases either living on the street, or living in our houses.  His family obviously didn’t have a lot of options to force help.  People like this guy basically get Ol Yellered.  

[52-80 19,245]

Is he a known/perpetual schizo, or an otherwise normal dude just tripping out of his flippin mind 

[RPM 26,353]

20 hours ago, crash_davis said:

We should thank APD. They took out a crazy dipshit with an assault rifle. One less future mass shooting to worry about.

That guy ain't paying for a drink in a cop bar for a year.

[Bozo_Casanova 26,549]

On 12/2/2022 at 7:54 AM, Parliament said:

This thread goes full-CR by page 2.  Prove me wrong.  

fart noise

[DaggerHorns 3,085]

20 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

Had he fired his weapon anywhere besides into his own house?  Not that the cops would have necessarily known that, but if he had actually been spraying bullets around the neighborhood, to me that takes a lot of heat off the cops' decision-making.

That was not a small caliber rifle.

If it was an AR15, you’re looking at going through multiple walls. If it was an AR10, you’re looking at going through multiple walls and cars.

If I live next to him, behind him or in front of him, my life is in danger, cops included as they were probably shooting AR15s, .223.

[JesusSweatDuck 17,810]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/-nothing-wrong-family-texas-entrepreneur-fatally-shot-police-say-was-d-rcna59884

 

As you can see on the video, no lights or sirens. Guy had no idea who was there.  Had just gotten back in town from a trip, but sure, he's schizophrenic.

 

Cop was a trigger happy asshole who killed someone and I'm pro-police

[52-80 19,245]

6 minutes ago, JesusSweatDuck said:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/-nothing-wrong-family-texas-entrepreneur-fatally-shot-police-say-was-d-rcna59884

 

As you can see on the video, no lights or sirens. Guy had no idea who was there.  Had just gotten back in town from a trip, but sure, he's schizophrenic.

 

Cop was a trigger happy asshole who killed someone and I'm pro-police

The police absolutely didn't give him time to respond - a person who was not actively menacing them.

BUT, the family claim on that article is also bullshit.  He's thought his house was being burglarized so he shot into his own house? Weapons are for active self defense (i.e. intruders breaking into the house he's occupying), not retaliation. 

And the audio of him asking "Yeah, you want this?" speaking into thin air, with nobody being in the house?  Dude was on something.

[Brian Fantana 6,690]

36 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

The police absolutely didn't give him time to respond - a person who was not actively menacing them.

BUT, the family claim on that article is also bullshit.  He's thought his house was being burglarized so he shot into his own house? Weapons are for active self defense (i.e. intruders breaking into the house he's occupying), not retaliation. 

And the audio of him asking "Yeah, you want this?" speaking into thin air, with nobody being in the house?  Dude was on something.

Yes, god knows everyone behaves rationally and logically at all times in high stress, potentially life threatening situations.

[52-80 19,245]

9 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Yes, god knows everyone behaves rationally and logically at all times in high stress, potentially life threatening situations.

Yes, if im outside my house, and the only persons inside are suspected burglars, thats definitely a threat to my life necessitating me shooting a fucking gun back INSIDE the house. 

[Brian Fantana 6,690]

I see you didn't bother reading my post. I'll wait.

[YGIFS 19,452]

At least we're finally doing away with the Constitution according to top men in the "We uphold the Constitution" demographic.  

[52-80 19,245]

3 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I see you didn't bother reading my post. I'll wait.

Oh you mean the only other party there: the police, who have had training, and cover, and distance from the guy with the gun (who wasnt threatening it at them)

Wow it makes even more sense. 

[Brian Fantana 6,690]

7 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Oh you mean the only other party there: the police, who have had training, and cover, and distance from the guy with the gun (who wasnt threatening it at them)

Wow it makes even more sense. 

No I mean the guy. You're still approaching it rationally, my point is people in those situations often don't, so critiquing their actions from a rational/logical standpoint is pointless.

Also, anyone stupid enough to buy an AR for home defense is probably even more susceptible to doing inexplicable things during high stress.

[DaggerHorns 3,085]

1 hour ago, Brian Fantana said:

No I mean the guy. You're still approaching it rationally, my point is people in those situations often don't, so critiquing their actions from a rational/logical standpoint is pointless.

Also, anyone stupid enough to buy an AR for home defense is probably even more susceptible to doing inexplicable things during high stress.

It also depends on how strong the shrooms were by the looks of it.

[bschoolprof 6,272]

front page of the wsj today.

Quote

AUSTIN, Texas—Rajan Moonesinghe thought there was someone in his house.

Mr. Moonesinghe, a 33-year-old tech entrepreneur known as Raj, grabbed a rifle. He told a neighbor there was an intruder and he was going to call 911. Across the street, a private security guard for his neighbor, a technology chief executive, was watching.

Within minutes, police would shoot and kill Mr. Moonesinghe on the front porch of his home in an affluent South Austin neighborhood. His Nov. 15 death has sent shock waves through Austin’s tech community, putting a city with a recent history of high-profile police shootings in a difficult situation with the influential new residents it has tried so hard to woo.

Now InKind, the finance and technology app Mr. Moonesinghe co-founded with his brother, is grappling with its future in Austin. His family and friends, including wealthy entrepreneurs and private-equity investors who are part of the tech community that flocked from California to Texas’ “Silicon Hills,” are mobilizing millions of dollars to fund police reform efforts.

“I am going to use all of my resources to make sure this does not happen again,” said Johann Moonesinghe, CEO of InKind, who vowed to spend millions to pursue justice for his brother and community change, regardless of Austin efforts. “I want to work [with the city], but if they’re not going to work with us, I will outspend them.”

Raj Moonesinghe’s shooting came after a neighbor, Melody Bing, said she saw him with the gun around 12:30 a.m. He told her someone was in his house and that he was going to call 911, Ms. Bing said. Across the street, the security guard was already doing so.

“He almost seems to be scared of something inside his house,” the guard told the dispatcher in a recording released of the 911 call. “He’s pointing the rifle at the interior of his home.”

Police were on the scene within five minutes, arriving just after he fired two shots into his living room.

Taking cover behind a fence down the street, Officer Daniel Sanchez yelled “drop the gun.” He began firing before he finished the sentence, body camera video shows, hitting Mr. Moonesinghe four times, according to a preliminary autopsy ordered by his family. The Travis County Medical Examiner’s report hasn’t been released.  '

Austin Police Department representatives declined to comment. The shooting remains under investigation. Officer Sanchez has been a licensed police officer two years and 11 months. He is on administrative leave and is being represented by attorneys from his union, the Combined Law Enforcement Associations of Texas, which said he “followed his training in order to protect lives.”

Austin Mayor Steve Adler called the shooting a tragedy, but said he is waiting for more information to form an opinion on whether it was justified. “I have a lot of questions, as I know the family does,” he said. “Why did it happen?”

Mr. Adler said Austin has worked on police reform in the wake of other controversial shootings. The city formed a task force on institutional racism after the 2016 killing of David Joseph, a naked, unarmed Black teenager who was shot when he ran at a police officer. It faced protests after the 2020 killing of Michael Ramos, an unarmed Black and Hispanic man shot in his car.

The officer who shot Mr. Joseph was fired from the department. The officer who shot Mr. Ramos, Christopher Taylor, was charged with murder. Officer Taylor is also facing murder charges for the 2019 shooting of another man, Mauris DeSilva, who, like Mr. Moonesinghe, was of Sri Lankan descent. Both cases are awaiting trial.

 

Austin police have killed at least 20 people in the past five years, the ninth-highest per capita rate of America’s 25 largest cities, according to data compiled by the data-collection project Mapping Police Violence. A 2019 report by the University of Texas found that Austin had the highest per capita rate of police shootings during mental-health calls of the 15 largest cities in the U.S. Elected leaders have put resources into mental-health intervention and ordered police to adjust cadet training.

Johann Moonesinghe and several friends say that unconscious bias played a role in the shooting of Mr. Moonesinghe, as a dark-skinned Asian man. Officer Sanchez is Hispanic.

Some policing experts said that anyone firing a rifle in a neighborhood is automatically considered a threat. Others called the police’s actions hasty. Jon Blum, a former police officer in Winston-Salem, N.C., and Garner, N.C., who has developed training protocols for hundreds of agencies, said police should have identified themselves and approached from a position to engage Mr. Moonesinghe before shooting him.

 

Based on his analysis of the videos, Mr. Blum said it appears that Mr. Moonesinghe had no idea police were there. “The bullet had hit him before he heard anything, because bullets travel faster than sound,” Mr. Blum said of the time-frame shown in the videos.  

Mr. Moonesinghe’s family believes there was an intruder in his house, as he said. Police didn’t find anyone in the home after the shooting, the department said in a news release.

At an Austin memorial for Mr. Moonesinghe, dozens filled the Pershing, an elite private club where he was a member, to recall stories of the friend they called unfailingly selfless. In eulogies they said that when he lived with roommates, he took the worst room. He stocked the beer his friends liked. Last year, Mr. Moonesinghe bought more than 200 acres in Zambia, where his uncle lives, to be a site for sustainable agriculture, a school and a medical clinic for nearby villages.

“Raj was the guy who was not only the life of the party, but also the guy who would stay to clean up afterwards,” said Doug Ludlow, CEO of the small business-assistance company MainStreet, who has known Mr. Moonesinghe since he was a child.

 

Those grieving remained stunned.

 

“Everyone I know is asking the same question: How do we help? How do we make sure there’s justice?” said Kip McClanahan, owner of the Pershing and partner in Silverton Partners, one of Texas’ most active venture-capital firms.

In downtown Austin, InKind’s offices take up a space formerly occupied by Facebook. The company, which provides upfront capital to restaurants by selling food and beverage credits to app users, has annual revenue of $48 million. The brothers, originally from California, moved to Austin five years ago, after starting InKind. It had planned to increase its 50 Austin employees to 180 by the end of next year, but Johann Moonesinghe now says he is reluctant to have people move to Austin to work for InKind because of his safety concerns.

He set up a foundation days ago to stop shootings like that of his brother from happening again. Ideas have ranged from investing in nonlethal policing tools and working with city leaders on implicit bias training to taking out billboards around the country warning entrepreneurs against moving their startups to Austin.

Mr. Ludlow has committed $1 million to the new foundation. He said the shooting was a wake-up call to the tech community that they aren’t immune to police force and said cities will have to adjust training if they want to grow business.

“There is massive competition to create new startup hubs,” Mr. Ludlow said. “If it’s not a safe community, especially for people of color, you will not create a tech hub there. Full stop.”

Write to Elizabeth Findell at elizabeth.findell@wsj.com

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by bschoolprof

[irishtexan 11,522]

It's pretty cool that we have a police officer who is currently being charged with TWO murders. Seriously impressive!

[ztejas 43,534]

Sounds like a win if it keeps more tech-doucher Californians from moving here. Nice work APD. 

[C-Man 27,262]

1 hour ago, bschoolprof said:

front page of the wsj today.

 

[Samson's Wig 3,194]

All else being equal, if this guy was my neighbor and firing rounds that could easily travel outside of his property and accidentally kill my loved ones, I'd be at least a little bit grateful that the cops killed him so  wouldn't have to.  A simple arrest and douchebag is back firing off his weapon for no reason a few days later.  One way or another, someone had to confront him.  Better the cops that a neighbor, in my opinion. 

Do I wish he had been taken in peacefully somehow?  Sure, of course - I'm not a monster.  Do I think that would solve a problem like this? No, not at all.  Better that guy is dead than the six year old girl next door.

[bschoolprof 6,272]

1 hour ago, irishtexan said:

It's pretty cool that we have a police officer who is currently being charged with TWO murders. Seriously impressive!

That caught my eye as well.  Craziness.