The GOP Dilemma, how to win without the loyal Racist base?

[Celery Man 20886]

16 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

A picante and pithy journey through the heart of the intellectual left.  I’m giving this post 3.5 stars.

[lemonlime 5503]

Meanwhile, Incredulity has managed to shift the discussion from his party's racism to the efficacy of masks

[Incredulity 11555]

3 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

Meanwhile, Incredulity has managed to shift the discussion from his party's racism to the efficacy of masks

Factually, I tried to direct that conversation to the appropriate thread.

[troph 24563]

Well, before I finished reading your post I was going to use defund the police as the perfect example of you being correct. So yes it’s highly appropriate but it’s still the case that if you say climate change is not settled that you have the exact opposite reaction to what you want - just like saying defund the police has had the same backfire consequence.

22 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

I had hoped that by comparing settled science to defund the police, it would be apparent to anyone that I was describing a labeling issue, where the term doesn’t accurately reflect the intent.  I guess not and I’m sorry I made the post now.

[troph 24563]

44 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

 

1.) There is an explosion of fir beetle tree deaths because zero forest service control efforts happened during the lockdown of 2020.   Of course the powers that be are scratching their heads.

2.) nearly all of the PNW wildfire of the last decade have occurred on public land.  Public land that the eco-left has put off limits to even moderate forest management.

Plenty of reason to criticize the forest service but your conclusive statement is absurd. You say because 2020 they did nothing but you say they’ve done zero management for decades.
 

Drought and the extreme heat dome that took temps into triple digits were a major contributor to the weakening of the trees that have no ability to survive in Texas style heat allowing opportunistic causes to take a larger hold in the largest swath of tree deaths on record. 

 

[troph 24563]

22 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

Meanwhile, Incredulity has managed to shift the discussion from his party's racism to the efficacy of masks

Racism, other-ism, demonization, rejection of science, breeding ground for conspiracies and rejection of government funded science initiatives, the list goes on. That’s one half of the party. The other half are old whites who want lower taxes care about the stock market almost exclusively and in the recesses of their minds also think non whites and heathen sexual perverts (read openly gay - it’s not gay if you deny it) are suspect.  

[Incredulity 11555]

9 minutes ago, troph said:

Plenty of reason to criticize the forest service but your conclusive statement is absurd. You say because 2020 they did nothing but you say they’ve done zero management for decades

The forest service(usda) has for the last several decades has had a very successful beetle control program.  Similar to the vector control programs many municipalities have for mosquitoes.  That didn’t happen during the lockdowns.  Same thing happened in the southeast US with cattle bot fly’s.  They had essentially been so effectively controlled for so long that ranchers didn’t understand what was happening to the cattle.

That program is wholly independent of any clearing/harvest/prescribed burn timber management that hasn’t been allowed for several decades.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Incredulity

[troph 24563]

1 hour ago, Incredulity said:

The forest service(usda) has for the last several decades has had a very successful beetle control program.  Similar to the vector control programs many municipalities have for mosquitoes.  That didn’t happen during the lockdowns.  Same thing happened in the southeast US with cattle bot fly’s.  They had essentially been so effectively controlled for so long that ranchers didn’t understand what was happening to the cattle.

That program is wholly independent of any clearing/harvest/prescribed burn timber management that hasn’t been allowed for several decades.

if you really think cumulative effects of sustained drought and higher temperatures (oregon is 2 degrees hotter on average now) hasn't been the primary reason why forests are struggling in the PNW, making the devastation by the beetle a secondary or even tertiary effect then you've proven my point. 

Take higher temperatures and drought and add erratic weather patterns like recent summer temps - as much as 30 degrees higher than average in Oregon - and you have a catastrophe already happening.   Yet you conclude a failure of the government to combat the pine beatle for one pandemic season as the sole cause of the worst decline in forests there in 75 years.

when settled science is walked back as unsettled, it allows conclusions like yours to flourish.

could management be better, sure. but that's the last in a long line of well documented problems with the Western United States forest stock. in fact, it's well known that healthy trees are the number one defense to the pine beetle. colder temps at the right time of year also aid in killing off beetles in the early part of their life cycle - which doesn't happen as often or as severe given rising temperatures.

Increased temps --> drought --> erratic weather patterns --> heat dome with temps 20-30 degrees higher --> weakened stocks --> opportunistic beetle that relies on weakened trees to destroy --> one year failure to combat beetles by humans --> worst outcome in 70+ years.  and because "science isn't settled", you focus on the last in a long line of contributing factors when the vast majority of scientists with more credentials and knowledge than either you or I say it's climate change - and in the western US specifically increased temps and drought - that are weakening stocks and causing an increase in fires and making the forests more susceptible to disease, fire and insects.

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by troph

[Incredulity 11555]

46 minutes ago, troph said:

if you really think cumulative effects of sustained drought and higher temperatures (oregon is 2 degrees hotter on average now) hasn't been the primary reason why forests are struggling in the PNW, making the devastation by the beetle a secondary or even tertiary effect then you've proven my point. 

Take higher temperatures and drought and add erratic weather patterns like recent summer temps - as much as 30 degrees higher than average in Oregon - and you have a catastrophe already happening.   Yet you conclude a failure of the government to combat the pine beatle for one pandemic season as the sole cause of the worst decline in forests there in 75 years.

when settled science is walked back as unsettled, it allows conclusions like yours to flourish.

could management be better, sure. but that's the last in a long line of well documented problems with the Western United States forest stock. in fact, it's well known that healthy trees are the number one defense to the pine beetle. colder temps at the right time of year also aid in killing off beetles in the early part of their life cycle - which doesn't happen as often or as severe given rising temperatures.

Increased temps --> drought --> erratic weather patterns --> heat dome with temps 20-30 degrees higher --> weakened stocks --> opportunistic beetle that relies on weakened trees to destroy --> one year failure to combat beetles by humans --> worst outcome in 70+ years.  and because "science isn't settled", you focus on the last in a long line of contributing factors when the vast majority of scientists with more credentials and knowledge than either you or I say it's climate change - and in the western US specifically increased temps and drought - that are weakening stocks and causing an increase in fires and making the forests more susceptible to disease, fire and insects.

 

I’ll be glad to check back in 5 and 10 years on the beetle situation in the PNW.  My bet is its under control.

[horn4life 3755]

I like how folks that don't want to discuss a topic. In this case the warm embrace of racism that is necessary for the GOP to win elections, want to pretend that other aspects of their "thought process" (regurgitations) are of interest?

I guess when you don't really have your own thoughts on something, it is a lot more difficult to defend most anything intellectually.  Instead it is sort of necessity to change the subject.  Sort of sad really, but perfectly understandable.  That's exactly how so many support a party that cannot win without its loyal racist base.  Instead the necessary defense is not to discuss, but to should from the hills "WHAT ABOUT..."

Because... for some thinking and discussing a subject.. is simply too fucking hard. So... the whatabout defense is pretty much the trademark of the GOP now when asked to discuss much of anything.  At least it is as predictable as racists tending to vote Republican, and the Republican party not rejecting those racists because they need the votes.  That's sort of the dilemma..

 

 

But What About.... (insert regurgitation here)

[BevoAbyss 2057]

The GOP and Religious Right have been attacking science on ever-more fronts over the past 40-50 years, perhaps since the Apollo moon landing. Since the Reagan-Falwell marriage of Republicans and religion, the long-term goal has always been a fascist theocracy to rule America. Always. Everything else is a smoke screen. 

That's why, as troph made clear, the GOP and theocrats want (evidence-free) creationism on equal intellectual standing with evolution and the 13.75 billion year evolution of the observable universe, for which there exists massive, overwhelming evidence. (Don't forget the "intelligent design" nonsense of the 1990s.) To equate any creationist claims and beliefs with the empirical evidence of evolution and the expansion of the universe is laughable ... and dangerous. To achieve the theocracy, American intellectual standards must crater and collapse, which is happening right before our eyes. Doublethink is running amok across America (But what about ...).

This leaves the field open for creationism and conspiracy theory, which are essentially two sides of the same coin that pretend to make sense of the world. There is no way to satisfy a MAGA, creationist, or conspiracy theorist with logic or evidence. They both believe all-knowing unseen hidden forces control the world (God, the Devil, Communists, the Trilateral Commission, etc.). All that matter are the sacred scrolls, from Bible passages to QAnon drops. All that's left are myths, lies, and violence, such as Bible-thumping patriots armed to the teeth, election conspiracies, and the attempted coup on January 6. The list goes on: the attacks on people of color, women's reproductive rights, and LGBTQ+ community are straight out of the fascist theocrat playbook. 

I'll say it again, the GOP goal is a fascist theocracy. To deny and not confront that fact is dangerous. That's why American democracy is in deep deep trouble.  

Edited December 11, 2022 by BevoAbyss

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13546]

Disclaimer: Haven't read thread, but...

...listened to this History Unplugged podcast today and thought it related tangently (I made a word) to this thread. How the GOP and Dems went thru generational/lifetime realignments and coalition building to dominate/gain the upper hand during various eras throughout the 19th and 20th centuries. 

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/republicans-controlled-1920s-america-but-were-later/id1237796990?i=1000588275937

[TwiceHorn 31283]

There are some tenets of conservativism that are de facto racist, like opposition to affirmative action (and other civil rights issues) as a theoretical matter, that are not racially motivated in most cases of their adherents, rather they reflect a lack of empathy for the lesser/minority, of any race, creed, or sexuality, and an overindulgence in myths of "equal opportunity"  (highly cultivated by the party) and resulting self-satisfaction that fails to acknowledge opportunities that were available only to certain (read white, male) groups.

I don't believe fattyflattie is an evil racist person, for example, but he certainly suffers some appalling blindspots to the lesser/minority.

But, as pointed out, at some point, acquiescence to the party when its goals become pretty blatant subjugation of lesser/minority groups crosses over into the realm of evil.  Banal evil, at least.

 

[aggie08 21434]

50 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

an overindulgence in myths of "equal opportunity"  (highly cultivated by the party) and resulting self-satisfaction that fails to acknowledge opportunities that were available only to certain (read white, male) groups

This is the exact reason why I am no longer a majority R vote. Long before Trump made me a never R-with-any-hint-of-MAGA voter.

It's all just such simplistic, emotional, masturbatory bullshit. Pretend like everyone had the same starting point that you did, so you can simultaneously look down on them for being lazy, uneducated freeloaders while patting yourself on the back for all of your achievements. Beneath the surface, all of the shit lies on a bed of inherent racism.

I bought that shit hook-line-and-sinker in my younger years because it made me feel good. 

The GOP is a fucking masterclass at playing on people's emotions, and weaponizing the reality that repetition=truth in media.

Edited December 12, 2022 by aggie08

[Slacks 6791]

On 12/11/2022 at 10:50 AM, troph said:

Racism, other-ism, demonization, rejection of science, breeding ground for conspiracies and rejection of government funded science initiatives, the list goes on. That’s one half of the party. The other half are old whites who want lower taxes care about the stock market almost exclusively and in the recesses of their minds also think non whites and heathen sexual perverts (read openly gay - it’s not gay if you deny it) are suspect.  

 "Suspicious"

[Beau Vine 54003]

41 minutes ago, Slacks said:

 "Suspicious"

[wildcat09 29258]

Incredulity trying to own the libs by talking about how great the federal government is wasn't on my bingo card.

[troph 24563]

6 hours ago, Slacks said:

 "Suspicious"

i'm effectively a technical writer in my day job. I take liberties here, all the liberties I want.

[Slacks 6791]

17 minutes ago, troph said:

i'm effectively a technical writer in my day job. I take liberties here, all the liberties I want.

I'll allow it.

[troph 24563]

49 minutes ago, Slacks said:

I'll allow it.

Ana apparently good will hunting is in my subconscious - that scene might be my fav lawyer scene of all time.  In fact I was Ben affleck’d today by a nincompoop.

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20344]

Not just the racist base.  In order to win Republican primaries one has to be anti-abortion.  Yet poll after poll and election after election are showing that this is a loser of an issue for the public at large and will increasingly be an issue as younger folks begin to really dominate U.S. elections.  Several states that banned abortions are now facing movements to enshrine abortion rights in those states' constitutions, and polls in those states show widespread support. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/12/14/abortion-pills-bans-dobbs-roe/




 

[YGIFS 19449]

You fucking woke libtards.  How do you win without the racist base?  Fucking trading cards, DUH!