Formula 1 2023

[Guest]

Lol. I read that, thought it was very weird. And then I thought about Hulk being German and it all the sudden felt like it made more sense and was hilarious.

[utee94 15,862]

On 3/17/2023 at 1:26 PM, kevwun said:

The only team you can make fun of without pissing someone off here is Ferrari.

As a Ferrari fan, I can agree with this. The team I root for, wears giant shoes and lives under the big top.

HOWEVER... McLaren is now making Ferrari look like a precisely tuned machine, battle-tested and honed to perfection.

And it has me laughing.

 

[utee94 15,862]

Anyway, finally finished up the race this morning, I was out of town camping at Big Bend all last week and didn't get home til Monday.

The main question is... did they give Fred TWO 3rd place trophies? 'Cause after all that bulljive, they should have.

The RBR is just ridiculous.  It's gonna be a long boring season at the front, but there is still a lot of interesting stuff happening between P3 and P8, that will be fun to watch unfold over the course of the season.

 

[ConferenceRoom 6,146]

12 minutes ago, utee94 said:

As a Ferrari fan, I can agree with this. The team I root for, wears giant shoes and lives under the big top.

HOWEVER... McLaren is now making Ferrari look like a precisely tuned machine, battle-tested and honed to perfection.

And it has me laughing.

 

Nothing could make Ferrari look like anything other than: 

[utee94 15,862]

15 minutes ago, ConferenceRoom said:

Nothing could make Ferrari look like anything other than: 

I thought the same.

But then McLaren happened.

Bwahahahahahaaaaa

 

[ConferenceRoom 6,146]

McLaren has an underdeveloped shitbox on their hands, no denying it. Ferrari is on a whole other level of ineptitude that saturates every part of their operation, all the way down to in-race communications with their drivers. McLaren could never hope to fill Ferrari's clown shoes. 

[utee94 15,862]

6 minutes ago, ConferenceRoom said:

McLaren has an underdeveloped shitbox on their hands, no denying it. Ferrari is on a whole other level of ineptitude that saturates every part of their operation, all the way down to in-race communications with their drivers. McLaren could never hope to fill Ferrari's clown shoes. 

Meh

 

 

Bwahahahahahahahaaaaaa

 

[ConferenceRoom 6,146]

Great, great American driver. Couldn't be helped. 

[utee94 15,862]

Anyway, I'm just thinking about what Aston Martin could do if they had a better second driver.  Good thing for the lesser teams like Mercedes and Ferrari, that they do not.

[Mittens 8,301]

11 minutes ago, utee94 said:

Anyway, I'm just thinking about what Aston Martin could do if they had a better second driver.  

I think we all consider Stroll the F1 nepo-baby, he's got an incredibly punchable face and speaks with a lisp, so he's super easy to hate, but he started P5 and was up to P4 before retiring due to the car, not anything he did.  

I get your point about a better 2nd, but who?  You can't take anyone from RBR, MER or FER...who is a clear cut better #2?  Bottas? That's the only one I can see.

[utee94 15,862]

20 minutes ago, Mittens said:

I think we all consider Stroll the F1 nepo-baby, he's got an incredibly punchable face and speaks with a lisp, so he's super easy to hate, but he started P5 and was up to P4 before retiring due to the car, not anything he did.  

I get your point about a better 2nd, but who?  You can't take anyone from RBR, MER or FER...who is a clear cut better #2?  Bottas? That's the only one I can see.

I think Norris would be substantially better than Stroll.  But it's a moo point, because he's the boss's son and that's why he has the ride in the first place.

 

[kevwun 15,886]

Stroll is the real #2 driver.  He may get paid like a #1, but their other driver is always going to be faster.  If Alonso moves on or retires in the next couple years, that seat is going to be very tempting if the car is still fast.

Edited March 22, 2023 by kevwun

[Mittens 8,301]

43 minutes ago, utee94 said:

I think Norris would be substantially better than Stroll.

I haven't seen anything from Lando that makes me believe that.  Last year when McLaren had a decent car, Lando finished where the car should - pretty consistently in that 6-8 range.  Now, when Aston Martin has a decent car, it appears that Stroll can perform similarly...albeit with ridiculously few data points.  

 

[wood 11,264]

Someone over on Autosport had a good idea I've never heard, re: not touching the car until the penalty is served ...

Quote

 

Just serve the penalty after the pitstop.

Everyone acts as normal, the car hits the ground again and the penalty starts by adding a 5/10 second delay into the gantry light system.

The pit crew has muscle memory to get the stop done and hands off before the car is dropped to the ground anyway, trying to change the routine to get an advantage will most likely force errors and be much easier to identify on camera.

 

Easier, more natural, and easier to police imho.

[Superhero 8,839]

On 3/21/2023 at 2:37 AM, ConferenceRoom said:

Butthurt Daniel fans. Gotta love 'em. 

Not a Daniel apologist. He was terrible the past few years. Just that Lando has a punchable face. Even more than Ocon. 

[Burt Macklin 19,053]

8 hours ago, Mittens said:

I think we all consider Stroll the F1 nepo-baby, he's got an incredibly punchable face and speaks with a lisp, so he's super easy to hate, but he started P5 and was up to P4 before retiring due to the car, not anything he did.  

I get your point about a better 2nd, but who?  You can't take anyone from RBR, MER or FER...who is a clear cut better #2?  Bottas? That's the only one I can see.

I’m not sure how starting P5 moving up to P4 (should’ve been P6 up to P5 if not for Leclerc grid penalty) is much of an accomplishment when you’re in the second fastest car. 

7 hours ago, Mittens said:

I haven't seen anything from Lando that makes me believe that.  Last year when McLaren had a decent car, Lando finished where the car should - pretty consistently in that 6-8 range.  Now, when Aston Martin has a decent car, it appears that Stroll can perform similarly...albeit with ridiculously few data points.  

 

This is one of the most absurd F1 takes I’ve ever read. Norris was extremely good the last two years. He was the only non-big 3 driver to get a podium last year.  He’s one of the top talents in the sport. Stroll is not even close. 

[wood 11,264]

5 minutes ago, Superhero said:

Not a Daniel apologist. He was terrible the past few years. Just that Lando has a punchable face. Even more than Ocon. 

I like 'em both, fwiw. I suspect I'm alone here in that regard. ETA: That is, I like Danny and Lando. Ocon can EABOD.

Edited March 22, 2023 by wood

[utee94 15,862]

14 minutes ago, wood said:

I like 'em both, fwiw. I suspect I'm alone here in that regard. ETA: That is, I like Danny and Lando. Ocon can EABOD.

I like Danny and don't really have anything against Lando.  But now that neither Danny nor Fred are at McLaren, I can go back to hating on them and enjoying their failures with a completely clear conscience.

 

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, wood said:

Someone over on Autosport had a good idea I've never heard, re: not touching the car until the penalty is served ...

Easier, more natural, and easier to police imho.

Why not just add five seconds to the time at the end of the race and there's no having to "serve it" at all?

[wood 11,264]

19 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Why not just add five seconds to the time at the end of the race and there's no having to "serve it" at all?

I (& afaik most people) have always felt like penalties were better served during the race rather than after. Changing results after the race is over doesn't feel right & doesn't sit well with most. Sometimes it has to happen, but it should be avoided whenever possible imho.

[Hawndoh 2,387]

Also, serving during the race can change track position and could mean position changes that otherwise may not have happened.

Some tracks are so hard to overtake the penalty could be the difference.

If simply added to the end the offending car could build up a gap to nullify the penalty.

[ConferenceRoom 6,146]

12 hours ago, Superhero said:

Not a Daniel apologist. He was terrible the past few years. Just that Lando has a punchable face. Even more than Ocon. 

Sure, buddy. 

[NoName 16,398]

23 hours ago, ConferenceRoom said:

McLaren has an underdeveloped shitbox on their hands, no denying it. Ferrari is on a whole other level of ineptitude that saturates every part of their operation, all the way down to in-race communications with their drivers. McLaren could never hope to fill Ferrari's clown shoes. 

from Reddit:

Quote

Before this season, Lando Norris never finished a race below 15th place. In the first two races of this season, he finished 17th.

i think he was 82/82 on finishing better than 15th.

he is now 2/2 on finishing worse than 15th this year.

it's going to be a long year for him. not sure what his contract situation is but man how do you recover from having a vehicle that is *THAT* bad. how do you mess up THAT badly after being quite good last year? Lando finished 20 races and had 17 top 10s last year.

e: hit enter on this, then got a notification that McLaren had gotten rid of their technical director

looks like this is part of a larger re-org. https://www.mclaren.com/racing/formula-1/2023/mclaren-formula-1-team-announces-organisational-changes/

reddit TLDR: James Key out, and being replaced by a team of people - David Sanchez from Ferrari (starting Jan 2024), Peter Prodromou and Neil Houldey

Edited March 23, 2023 by NoName

[ConferenceRoom 6,146]

You mess up by not hitting development goals before the start of the season. Getting rid of Key is a start. 

[NoName 16,398]

On 3/21/2023 at 7:37 AM, ConferenceRoom said:

Butthurt Daniel fans. Gotta love 'em. 

people can both not like Lando - but most of the people i know who don't like him are >40, and don't like the video game stuff, how he handles himself, etc - and like Daniel.

Danny Ric is my favorite driver, and that's fine.

I like Lando a ton as well, and wanted he and Danny Ric to make a killer team at McLaren (plus Zac Brown obviously) but it didn't happen. sucks. but to sit here and act like people who dislike Lando only do it because they like Daniel is dumb and you should know better.

Lando will nearly always get the benefit of the doubt with announcers and a ton of F1 media because of where he was born. that rubs a lot of people the wrong way. plus he is young - going into his 5th year in F1 and still the 4th youngest driver on the grid, which also rubs people the wrong way for some reason.

it's weird.

[utee94 15,862]

I enjoy hating on McLaren because that's what fans do with respect to their favorite team's rivals, but I actually liked Zak Brown and wanted to see him succeed.  I don't know anything about operating a Formula 1 race team, so I have no idea how to assess where the problems lie, but something seems to be going very wrong there.  I'm sure some of you guys that follow the teams' personnel and operational models more closely could shed some light, I just have no idea.

[NoName 16,398]

2 minutes ago, ConferenceRoom said:

You mess up by not hitting development goals before the start of the season. Getting rid of Key is a start. 

...except that the new Technical Director (David Sanchez) is coming back from Ferrari and won't join the team until 1/1/24, at which point how much work will have already been done on their 2024 car.

so in 2025 they should be rocking and rolling just in time for a new series of engine rules/changes in 2026.

[ConferenceRoom 6,146]

14 minutes ago, NoName said:

people can both not like Lando - but most of the people i know who don't like him are >40, and don't like the video game stuff, how he handles himself, etc - and like Daniel.

Danny Ric is my favorite driver, and that's fine.

I like Lando a ton as well, and wanted he and Danny Ric to make a killer team at McLaren (plus Zac Brown obviously) but it didn't happen. sucks. but to sit here and act like people who dislike Lando only do it because they like Daniel is dumb and you should know better.

Lando will nearly always get the benefit of the doubt with announcers and a ton of F1 media because of where he was born. that rubs a lot of people the wrong way. plus he is young - going into his 5th year in F1 and still the 4th youngest driver on the grid, which also rubs people the wrong way for some reason.

it's weird.

I mean people on here in the last season thread were literally complaining that Lando was pulling the strings and orchestrating Daniel's failures. Daniel became my favorite driver by default when Fernando left. I defended him until his performances were no longer defendable. At the end of the day drivers who are able to adapt to the various ways cars drive year over year are the most successful, and for whatever reason Daniel was unable to do that with McLaren. It certainly didn't help that he missed all of pre-season testing and started immediately on the back foot. It was the correct decision for both sides to split and frankly McLaren did Daniel a favor. Some people can't separate Lando's "success" from Danny's failures. 

 

[ConferenceRoom 6,146]

34 minutes ago, NoName said:

...except that the new Technical Director (David Sanchez) is coming back from Ferrari and won't join the team until 1/1/24, at which point how much work will have already been done on their 2024 car.

so in 2025 they should be rocking and rolling just in time for a new series of engine rules/changes in 2026.

Is your thinking that they should keep Key? 

[NoName 16,398]

20 minutes ago, ConferenceRoom said:

. It was the correct decision for both sides to split and frankly McLaren did Daniel a favor. Some people can't separate Lando's "success" from Danny's failures.

agreed.

16 minutes ago, ConferenceRoom said:

Is your thinking that they should keep Key? 

not at all, a change had to be made and i get that. but maybe don't hire a guy who has to be sidelined for 9 months when you could have just kicked the car to the curb this year and started on next years?

[kevwun 15,886]

Is he really gonna wait that long to get started though?  Maybe he just won't set foot in the building or at any testing, but is working remotely the whole time?

[NoName 16,398]

30 minutes ago, kevwun said:

Is he really gonna wait that long to get started though?  Maybe he just won't set foot in the building or at any testing, but is working remotely the whole time?

i thought he couldn't actually join the team at all until the end of his non compete? so basically paid time off until the NDA expires

[kevwun 15,886]

Yeah, but the teams skirt and/or break rules all the time.  Brown isn't really in a position to wait that long for the car to get better I don't think.  His neck is up next on the chopping block.

[Mittens 8,301]

17 hours ago, Burt Macklin said:

This is one of the most absurd F1 takes I’ve ever read. Norris was extremely good the last two years. He was the only non-big 3 driver to get a podium last year.  He’s one of the top talents in the sport. Stroll is not even close. 

Lando's been in a quick car built to his style and finished pretty much where that car should have.  Stroll has been in a much worse car until this year.  Norris may in fact be better than Stroll, and I certainly suspect he is, but you can't discount the car(s), and I don't know if I'd call the gap between them substantial.  Lewis doesn't have 7 titles if he isn't in that Merc, does he?  I'll reserve judgement until further through this season with more races in a solid ride to see what Stroll can really do.  It's not like his 4 time WDC teammate was blowing him off the track last year.

[wood 11,264]

3 hours ago, ConferenceRoom said:

I mean people on here in the last season thread were literally complaining that Lando was pulling the strings and orchestrating Daniel's failures. Daniel became my favorite driver by default when Fernando left. I defended him until his performances were no longer defendable. At the end of the day drivers who are able to adapt to the various ways cars drive year over year are the most successful, and for whatever reason Daniel was unable to do that with McLaren. It certainly didn't help that he missed all of pre-season testing and started immediately on the back foot. It was the correct decision for both sides to split and frankly McLaren did Daniel a favor. Some people can't separate Lando's "success" from Danny's failures.

Yep. Adaptability is critical. Possibly the most important trait of a top driver imho. Alonso, Lewis, and Max have it in spades. Most of the others? Not so much. Even some WDCs, like Kimi and JB had very small windows in terms of what kind of car in which they could perform well. Think of the changes Alonso has seen, and he still gets in and just wrings every bit of performance out of the car, like it's a sponge.

Edited March 23, 2023 by wood

[Guest]

2 hours ago, kevwun said:

Yeah, but the teams skirt and/or break rules all the time.  Brown isn't really in a position to wait that long for the car to get better I don't think.  His neck is up next on the chopping block.

Is it? I've always gotten the impression that he's a bit of a savior of that team in recent years due to all the sponsorship money he's gotten to roll in.

[kevwun 15,886]

The car is getting worse though.  They aren't any faster than Williams right now.  He's running out of people to scapegoat.

[NoName 16,398]

4 minutes ago, kevwun said:

The car is getting worse though.  They aren't any faster than Williams right now.  He's running out of people to scapegoat.

who has he scapegoated though? outside of this single dude (Key)?

[kevwun 15,886]

They also have a new team principal this year.  Scapegoat probably isn't the best term because he's not publicly throwing them under the bus.  If you keep replacing people without improvement it eventually ends up at your feet though.

[Guest]

Via Reddit. Grosjean's car:

[kevwun 15,886]

I don't know how he ever got back in to a race car after that.  He used up all his luck in walking away from that crash.

[PittsburghTiger 6,196]

https://www.autoweek.com/racing/formula-1/a43398696/early-season-f1-disappointment-mclaren-makes-major-changes/?source=nl&utm_source=nl_aut&utm_medium=email&date=032323&utm_campaign=nl30935076&user_email=31c2dfdc9d26b279ccc984f1c0dc5129a85bd4b745edae0328269b064ab70be7&GID=31c2dfdc9d26b279ccc984f1c0dc5129a85bd4b745edae0328269b064ab70be7&utm_term=AAA -- High Minus Dormant and 90 Day Non Openers

 

Big changes at McLaren

 

EDIT: oops, I didn't see post #1273

Edited March 23, 2023 by PittsburghTiger

[Burt Macklin 19,053]

6 hours ago, Mittens said:

Lando's been in a quick car built to his style and finished pretty much where that car should have.  Stroll has been in a much worse car until this year.  Norris may in fact be better than Stroll, and I certainly suspect he is, but you can't discount the car(s), and I don't know if I'd call the gap between them substantial.  Lewis doesn't have 7 titles if he isn't in that Merc, does he?  I'll reserve judgement until further through this season with more races in a solid ride to see what Stroll can really do.  It's not like his 4 time WDC teammate was blowing him off the track last year.

Bravo, sir. This is a Swoopes Should Starts level take. We’ve needed a Stroll stan on this board for a while. Happy to have you! 

Edited March 23, 2023 by Burt Macklin

[Mittens 8,301]

Predictable response is predictable.  

Not a Stroll stan in any way shape or form.  Just think the car plays a major part in how we perceive drivers - especially young ones.  

[utee94 15,862]

Man, the F1 thread is starting to get salty AF.  I hate the offseason... errr...

 

[dieucla98 2,942]

If the new Max vs Lewis debate is Lando vs Stroll, I'm out, see you next year.

[utee94 15,862]

Nah, Lando v Stroll is the new Grosjean v Maldonado debate.

[wood 11,264]

1 hour ago, utee94 said:

Grosjean v Maldonado

I abstain.

[wood 11,264]

4 hours ago, Mittens said:

Predictable response is predictable.  

Not a Stroll stan in any way shape or form.  Just think the car plays a major part in how we perceive drivers - especially young ones.  

I'm not gonna enter the Stroll/Lando fray, but absolutely, yes, the car plays a massive role in how drivers are viewed.

[deft 6,879]

I have a lando shirt so you might say I’m one cool kid.

Then again my other f1 tees are rbr or Verstappen shorts so you’d probably hate me anyway.