Formula 1 2023

[Mittens 8,295]

10 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Formula 1 is one of the most elitist sports in the world. The top teams are act like it is an honor for the other teams to share the track. (See MA/Cadillac bid). 

Not sure we're on the same page in this conversation as that doesn't have anything to do w/ what I posted.

I'm talking about Williams feeling good about their results because they know they don't have the money/resources/drivers to be on podium.  They are aware they can't compete with RBR or Ferrari and are happy to beat the other half of the field.  The American mindset would be thinking what a massive failure 10th and 12th is.

[Burt Macklin 19,038]

Ferrari confirms the issue was with Leclerc’s ERS battery pack and neither unit is salvageable, so he’ll be taking a 10-place grid penalty in his second race after DNF’ing in his first. JFC Ferrari. 

1 hour ago, NoName said:

looks like i got lucky and it's JUST outside of the past decade by luck not knowledge haha

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Formula_One_World_Championship

i need to go back and watch some highlights from 2012 thanks!

get the cheap F1 TV sub and watch the entire 2012 season. It’s absolutely incredible and might be the best season of F1 ever. Almost every single race was great that year. 
 

Funny enough, we’d actually have that this year if RB didn’t exist or were on similar pace as the other 3 top teams. 

[wood 11,231]

3 hours ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

So is it safe to say that after this year the Mercedes "dropped cookie dough" design is going to be done away with? 

Judging from Toto's comments after the race in the Sky post-race show, he's finally convinced they are in need of 'radical change'. He said the big planned update would have only brought 0.3s anyway, and they need more than that.

[wood 11,231]

1 hour ago, 52-80 said:

I've been watching for exactly 1 decade now (i cant believe that's true) and its still *feels* weird to me how much teams celebrate finishing not-1st place.  I know the logic of why: there's money at stake for all the points collected, but there's still something unnatural about it. 

They take a multi-year view. When a team, AM for instance, does what they did yesterday, it's a huge victory in the big picture.

[Burt Macklin 19,038]

I don't think it matters what "concept" Merc pursue.  RB and AM have something figured out with the underfloor that no one else knows.  Merc might be able to find more improvement going with a different concept, but unless they have some drastically better way to run the floor (which they could already be incorporating to their current concept), then they going to be way behind no matter what. 

[Dutch 4,474]

2 hours ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Perhaps limiting wind tunnel time was not the equalizer they predicted 

Apparently Adrian Newey doesn't need a wind tunnel.

[kevwun 15,832]

AM doesn't really get credit for figuring anything out, they just hired someone from Red Bull who brought the secret over.

Edited March 6, 2023 by kevwun

[wood 11,231]

1 minute ago, Dutch said:

Apparently Adrian Newey doesn't need a wind tunnel.

Yeah also apparently doesn't use much CFD either. Mostly just his brain and pencil & paper.

[wood 11,231]

1 minute ago, kevwun said:

AM doesn't really get credit for figuring anything out, they just hired someone from Red Bull who brought the secret over.

That's what they all do and have done for decades. RBR, Ferrari, Merc, and McLaren have always poached top engineering talent from the smaller teams, esp before the Cap. So much so that some complained that they'd stockpile that talent even if they didn't need it, just so they wouldn't have to compete against them. 

[kevwun 15,832]

Yeah in a few more years everyone will know about it through the same process.  Then the cars will slowly start to all look like each other again as a consensus design emerges.

Edited March 6, 2023 by kevwun

[wood 11,231]

Just now, kevwun said:

Yeah and in a few more years everyone will know about it through the same process as the cars slowly start to all look like each other again.

Yep. Convergence happens every time. Then pretty soon the formula will change. Probably 2026 or shortly after.

[Anton Chigurh 3,319]

I don't think it matters what "concept" Merc pursue.  RB and AM have something figured out with the underfloor that no one else knows.  Merc might be able to find more improvement going with a different concept, but unless they have some drastically better way to run the floor (which they could already be incorporating to their current concept), then they going to be way behind no matter what. 

Well, obviously. But what they mean is they need to do a wholesale change and figure out what special missing piece is that they’ve missed, and not continue to spend money on a dead end.

[faps 806]

Figure out the best way of allowing teams to "catch up". There is more wind tunnel time for slower teams right? Why not more on track testing? The brand is better when one team isn't running off into the sunset every race.

[Burt Macklin 19,038]

4 minutes ago, Anton Chigurh said:

Well, obviously. But what they mean is they need to do a wholesale change and figure out what special missing piece is that they’ve missed, and not continue to spend money on a dead end.

I agree they should quit going down this path, I'm just saying it's not like they even have a clue what the right path is. The observable stuff, like sidepods does almost nothing. It's all about the underfloor. That's a huge difference between these aero regs and the previous ones. It's much harder to copy/catch up. 

[Goofyboy 3,293]

I think they know what the answer is. Having the $$$ to make that change with the cost cap or to figure out HOW to implement that change with the cost cap is the issue.

[Anton Chigurh 3,319]

I agree they should quit going down this path, I'm just saying it's not like they even have a clue what the right path is. The observable stuff, like sidepods does almost nothing. It's all about the underfloor. That's a huge difference between these aero regs and the previous ones. It's much harder to copy/catch up. 

I agree 100% with this. It is sort of ironic though that the cap is now what will keep the dominant team in front.

[Huckleberry 33,058]

2 hours ago, Mittens said:

Not sure we're on the same page in this conversation as that doesn't have anything to do w/ what I posted.

I'm talking about Williams feeling good about their results because they know they don't have the money/resources/drivers to be on podium.  They are aware they can't compete with RBR or Ferrari and are happy to beat the other half of the field.  The American mindset would be thinking what a massive failure 10th and 12th is.

That's not really true, though. Even professional sports teams in the US have plenty of fans that understand a rebuilding phase. Then obviously your statement above doesn't apply at all to college sports. Sure they hope for an upset but that's because motor sports are different because machines don't have the variability in performance like people do. 

[NoName 16,368]

2 hours ago, faps said:

Figure out the best way of allowing teams to "catch up". There is more wind tunnel time for slower teams right? Why not more on track testing? The brand is better when one team isn't running off into the sunset every race.

wasn't part of why they cut down on testing cost?

all that said, i agree and am curious as to if more track time/testing is bigger or would help more than wind tunnel testing

[wood 11,231]

15 minutes ago, NoName said:

wasn't part of why they cut down on testing cost?

all that said, i agree and am curious as to if more track time/testing is bigger or would help more than wind tunnel testing

Yep, and with a Cap in place, they should be able to test to their heart's content as long as they contain their overall costs.

[deft 6,867]

Is Mercedes the only team doing “zero pods”? Is this really going to set them back a few years realistically?

[Burt Macklin 19,038]

2 minutes ago, deft said:

Is Mercedes the only team doing “zero pods”? Is this really going to set them back a few years realistically?

If it was just the pods, they could fix it relatively quickly, but they have suspension/underfloor issues that are the bigger problem. Those don’t have a quick fix and, really, no one besides RB and AM know the best design for them. 

[G650 14,273]

Sounds like Merc is pulling James Allison back  from the sailboats to help.

[Guest]

What did yall think of the new intro? I dunno, seemed kind of weird.
 

 

[Guest]

[RamjetFDO 10,577]

#MagicAlonso

[ChickenSandwich 9,847]

F1 doesn't seem interested in parity or changing of the top three. 
 

Red Bull already crying about AM

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by ChickenSandwich

[wood 11,231]

LOL, yeah ... Helmut's crying about poached engineers. So then, I guess he should send Newey back to McLaren and give Merc back the PU engineers he's poached recently. Not gonna happen though, 'cause that shit's been rampant as long as there's been an F1. 

[wood 11,231]

Oh, and it's not as if they went and built a RBR clone. They built a car that resembles Red Bull's cars, with certain RBR design cues that some other teams have been trying to copy as well. But it has some distinct differences, like the front end suspension geometry, the deeper 'ramp, etc, and is its own car. 

[Guest]

Man, if the posted Reddit articles are any indicator, Merc is having a meltdown over their situation.

[Native Horn 3,506]

15 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Man, if the posted Reddit articles are any indicator, Merc is having a meltdown over their situation.

Twitter, too.

[NoName 16,368]

29 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Man, if the posted Reddit articles are any indicator, Merc is having a meltdown over their situation.

MB worked up about something?

 

[wood 11,231]

Haven't been able to keep up with the redditwitterverse the last couple days. Whatcha heard? Only thing I've heard is a vague rumor that the MB board is considering leaving F1, with AM taking the 'works team' position.

[NoName 16,368]

https://racingnews365.com/russell-demands-drastic-mercedes-sacrifice

Russell demands drastic Mercedes 'sacrifice'

specific GR quotes:
 

Quote

"We're here to win, and we obviously want to optimise every single result," Russell told media including RacingNews365.com.

"But if you give me a choice between having a chance to win races, whenever that is, versus slow progress and never having that chance, you obviously choose the one of taking victories.

"If we've got to sacrifice some races or part of a season to give ourselves a chance to get a car that can fight in the second half of the season, or even looking towards next year, that's maybe what we're going have to do, because clearly we are a long way behind."

 

and
 

Quote

"We're here to fight for championships, we're here to win. Personally, if I finished second in the Drivers' Championship this year, or seventh, it makes no difference. I'm here to win, and I want to win championships, I want to win races.

"That's what every single person in Mercedes wants to do – second isn't good enough. And if we need to make some drastic changes to give ourselves a shot at the second half of the year, whatever it may be, that's what we'll do.

 

article text, but just read the quotes above

Spoiler

George Russell says Mercedes need to consider sacrificing at least part of the 2023 season in order to divert enough resources to designing a car capable of winning Grands Prix.

At the season-opening Bahrain Grand Prix, the limitations of Mercedes’ new W14 were laid bare, with Lewis Hamilton finishing fifth, some 50 seconds behind winner Max Verstappen, and Russell two places further back in seventh.

Team boss Toto Wolff had taken the unusual step of acknowledging even before the race that the W14 would never be truly competitive, and suggested that the team may switch its development focus onto an entirely new concept – a notion that Russell appeared to be supportive of, even if that meant writing off 2023.

"We're here to win, and we obviously want to optimise every single result," Russell told media including RacingNews365.com.

"But if you give me a choice between having a chance to win races, whenever that is, versus slow progress and never having that chance, you obviously choose the one of taking victories.

"If we've got to sacrifice some races or part of a season to give ourselves a chance to get a car that can fight in the second half of the season, or even looking towards next year, that's maybe what we're going have to do, because clearly we are a long way behind."

Second or seventh 'makes no difference'

Russell's downbeat assessment of Mercedes' pace deficit to Red Bull had led the Briton to suggest that the drinks-backed squad could win every race in 2023, such was their dominance in Bahrain.

Though a move to a different car concept would doubtless take time and result in a few mediocre performances, Russell added that this was a price worth paying in order to return to the winners' dais.

"We're here to fight for championships, we're here to win. Personally, if I finished second in the Drivers' Championship this year, or seventh, it makes no difference. I'm here to win, and I want to win championships, I want to win races.

"That's what every single person in Mercedes wants to do – second isn't good enough. And if we need to make some drastic changes to give ourselves a shot at the second half of the year, whatever it may be, that's what we'll do.

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by NoName

[wood 11,231]

Cool, thanks. And I just saw this one ...

RacingNews365: Hamilton says Mercedes didn't listen to him on W14 design
racingnews365.com/hamilton-says-mercedes-didnt-listen-to-him-on-w14-design?utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=twitter&utm_medium=sharing

Quote

"Last year, I told them the issues that are with the car," Hamilton told BBC Sport.

"I've driven so many cars in my life, so I know what a car needs, I know what a car doesn't need," added the seven-time World Champion, who has a record 103 Grand Prix wins to his name.

"And I think it's really about accountability, it's about owning up and saying 'yeah, you know what, we didn't listen to you, it's not where it needs to be and we've got to work'.

"We've got to look into the balance through the corners, look at all the weak points and just huddle up as a team, that's what we do.

"We're still multi-World Champions, it's just they haven’t got it right this time, they didn’t get it right last year, but that doesn’t mean we can’t get it right moving forwards.”

 

[NoName 16,368]

9 minutes ago, wood said:

Cool, thanks. And I just saw this one ...

RacingNews365: Hamilton says Mercedes didn't listen to him on W14 design
racingnews365.com/hamilton-says-mercedes-didnt-listen-to-him-on-w14-design?utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=twitter&utm_medium=sharing

 

who knew Lewis is a trained development engineer. not saying he is "just" a driver, but there is a huge knowledge and education gap between what he is saying and what the engineers are doing/working on.

this in a nutshell shows he doesn't get it

Quote

"We're still multi-World Champions, it's just they haven’t got it right this time, they didn’t get it right last year, but that doesn’t mean we can’t get it right moving forwards.”

fundamentally it's the same concept/car. they didn't get it right last year, made changes where they could and still have the same basic car/concept this year.

Lewis is great. but he isn't an engineer.

this is the same as someone saying "game development isn't that hard, just do XYZ" or "change this system to do this"

[wood 11,231]

I guess Kimi's running COTA for Trackhouse this year ...

 

[G650 14,273]

6 hours ago, NoName said:

who knew Lewis is a trained development engineer. not saying he is "just" a driver, but there is a huge knowledge and education gap between what he is saying and what the engineers are doing/working on.

this in a nutshell shows he doesn't get it

fundamentally it's the same concept/car. they didn't get it right last year, made changes where they could and still have the same basic car/concept this year.

Lewis is great. but he isn't an engineer.

this is the same as someone saying "game development isn't that hard, just do XYZ" or "change this system to do this"

I think what Lewis is saying is he told them the concept is shit and needs to be binned, and they kept at it, as opposed to offering design input.

[Burt Macklin 19,038]

36 minutes ago, G650 said:

I think what Lewis is saying is he told them the concept is shit and needs to be binned, and they kept at it, as opposed to offering design input.

Still kind of a dick move on his part. He's usually subtle about it, but he does tend to blame the team or other people when he fails to perform.  

[G650 14,273]

Hell, should have said something last year. They are clearly going the wrong fucking way

[Chewbacca 7,781]

7 hours ago, NoName said:

who knew Lewis is a trained development engineer. not saying he is "just" a driver, but there is a huge knowledge and education gap between what he is saying and what the engineers are doing/working on.

this in a nutshell shows he doesn't get it

fundamentally it's the same concept/car. they didn't get it right last year, made changes where they could and still have the same basic car/concept this year.

Lewis is great. but he isn't an engineer.

this is the same as someone saying "game development isn't that hard, just do XYZ" or "change this system to do this"

I think Toto admitting that they need to change course certainly gives Lewis' comments more weight.  And while he's not designing the car, I don't see anything he said that would be objectionable.  He knows what he feels when he drives it.

[Chewbacca 7,781]

21 minutes ago, Burt Macklin said:

Still kind of a dick move on his part. He's usually subtle about it, but he does tend to blame the team or other people when he fails to perform.  

Not really.  He didn't say shit last year.  But here he is in 2023 and the same issues persist?  I don't blame him for being pissed.

[kevwun 15,832]

I can understand why it's taken the team a while to admit the design isn't going to work.  Their cars have been at the forefront of all the teams for so long that there is going to be some hubris that this one will work too.

[Anton Chigurh 3,319]

[texas08 1,599]

Random, I’m team Gasley after the obvios Checo and Hamilton, I pick my drivers based on personalities and other factors. I don’t care about teams. He seems like the hungriest of the next generation drivers. I wonder how this comment will age.

[Burt Macklin 19,038]

12 hours ago, Chewbacca said:

Not really.  He didn't say shit last year.  But here he is in 2023 and the same issues persist?  I don't blame him for being pissed.

That team has given him a car that half the grid could’ve won 7 titles with and made him an absolute legend. The first time they go in the wrong design direction in a decade and he throws all those hard working people under the bus because they didn’t do what he said with the car? Yeah that’s a fucking Dick move. There’s no reason he had to bash them publicly. 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Burt Macklin

[NoName 16,368]

10 hours ago, Burt Macklin said:

That team has given him a car that half the grid could’ve won 7 titles with and made him an absolute legend. The first time they go in the wrong design direction in a decade and he throws all those hard working people under the bus because they didn’t do what he said with the car? Yeah that’s a fucking Dick move. There’s no reason he had to bash them publicly. 

honestly it seems like such a non Lewis move to make/say in public. guess he's finally realizing he isn't going to win another title without a huge change

[faps 806]

Poor George, patiently waited in the wings while Merc was going NLAA on everyone. Finally gets in the car and it's a shitbox. Did get him a race win though.

It'll be pretty tough for Mercedes to climb back to the top, that Red Bull train is rolling pretty hard. Red Bull was kicking everyone's ass with Vettel, then had some down times and is back on top. So it is doable, helps to have the best car designer/aerodynamicst ever on staff though.

@texas08 I like Gasly too. Seems like a good dude and hungry, like you said. I don't really have any team allegiance, just like drivers that don't seem like total asshats.

[Guest]

The first couple of months of this season sucks and there's going to be so many stories like this simply because there is no racing. Race 1, two weeks off, Race 2, two weeks off, Race 3, four weeks off...

Three races in 10 weeks. Got a lot of time to fill.

[NoName 16,368]

3 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

The first couple of months of this season sucks and there's going to be so many stories like this simply because there is no racing. Race 1, two weeks off, Race 2, two weeks off, Race 3, four weeks off...

Three races in 10 weeks. Got a lot of time to fill.

i think it's genuinely a mistake to not capitalize on Testing > Race > Race 3 weeks in a row. they can't blame it all on China (was the 4th race IIRC) but yeah...this is less than ideal.

• Testing
• Bahrain
• 1 week break
• Saudi Arabia
• 1 week break
• Australia
• 3 week break
• Azerbaijan
• Miami

[Mittens 8,295]

11 hours ago, texas08 said:

I’m team Gasley