Formula 1 2023

[wood 11618]

2 hours ago, Hawndoh said:

F1 wants American viewers and money, but they don't want American racing teams or drivers.

It's a bad look and just seems like they're afraid of the competition, or they simply look down on American racing too much to consider an American team.

If it was some rich German or British guy, and if it was Jaguar or BMW instead of Cadillac it wouldn't be any problem.

This seems to be it. They had no problem with RBR rebranding their engines, or Sauber being sponsored by Alfa rather than than being a PU manufacturer or works team, or Red Bull Infiniti, etc, etc. They drooled over Audi and Porsche, and had no problem when they were talking about rebranding engines. And now they say "Well, 10 teams is enough" while also saying "We have other teams attempting to enter F1, so we can't just jump in with Andretti". But, but, I thought 10 teams was enough? Just one excuse after the next. Ever-shifting goalposts. It's a terrible look.

[wood 11618]

24 minutes ago, elfenix said:

they wanted the american franchise sports system without really understanding what it is or how it works.  they just see the dallas cowboys being worth $8 billion and toto's eyes light up.  "we're on tv more weekends than they are"

Yep, so they instituted the $200M entry fee but don't want to allow entry in even though the entrant can pay. They wanted a frnchise system, so why not just go that route and then start a huge bidding war whenever they feel the time is right to add a franchise?

[utee94 15897]

F1 is snobby.  Welcome to... 1962?

[elfenix 34387]

infiniti was at least part of the nissan/renault JV/alliance/tieup thing that resulted in carlos ghosn fleeing from japan in a coffin with a spec ops team. 

[wood 11618]

3 hours ago, NoName said:

i keep seeing people compare it to being "only $200m" when NHL teams sold for $650m

article or tweet thread showed how that is a bad comparison, especially with the NHL one:

• expansion draft to get teams up to speed faster - taking at least a player from the other teams in the league
• TV revenue split/sharing (exists in F1)
• additional/ongoing have revenue from hosting games

keep in mind the teams agreed to this $200m entry and 26 maximum grid slots way, way, way back in...2021

if teams wanted the number to be higher - which is reasonable - they should have negotiated it to be higher. correct me if I am wrong but the $200m split amongst the 10 existing teams replaced what existed before which was $0 in prize money in Year 1 and eligibility starting in Year 2?

what the teams clearly want to have happen is some multibillionaire to come in, create a team from scratch, get tired of it and have a new Haas/Williams-level team on the grid who isn't going to really compete in the midfield much less the top teams.

meanwhile, they get someone who knows about motorsports, has committed to an American driver (can Herta get enough points to even drive in 2024 at this point?), has committed to an American "home" and has the backing of GM and they are not adding this team with open arms?

total and complete side note, but F1 signing a 3 year deal for US TV rights in October 2022 only to potentially add an "American" team in 2023 is dumb. maybe it was priced in but with how they are handling this i doubt it. looks like the existing Concorde agreement ends in 2025 so that may have been part of the reason?

here is a question but does it have to be a universal vote or just a majority vote to add the new team?

You're not wrong, and now they're crying about the $200M figure being too low, and talking wanting it raised to $500M or more. Re: the vote, no official team vote is needed, but it seems that F1 and Domenicali are kowtowing to the teams. Gonna be interesting to see how it all plays out.

Edited January 10, 2023 by wood

[wood 11618]

4 minutes ago, utee94 said:

F1 is snobby.  Welcome to... 1962?

It's snobby, but in the past they'd allow any serious entry to compete. F1 now is a far cry from what F1 was in this regard, even 10-20 years ago. Before it was all about the competition and the business side was just a necessary evil to support that. Now, the business comes first and competition is an afterthought.

[ChickenSandwich 9856]

Wolf seems like a bitch in this scenario. 

[PittsburghTiger 6245]

4 hours ago, wood said:

It's snobby, but in the past they'd allow any serious entry to compete. F1 now is a far cry from what F1 was in this regard, even 10-20 years ago. Before it was all about the competition and the business side was just a necessary evil to support that. Now, the business comes first and competition is an afterthought.

I went back and looked. In 1962 I think there were 34 teams that participated. Of course, not everyone competed in every race. Sort of like the World of Outlaws was at its inception in 1979. I’d like to see three more teams. I just want more competition. I think we got a lot closer to want we want with the action last season.

[ConferenceRoom 6155]

8 hours ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Started watching last night, finished about half of it (thank god I can fast forward through the red flag).

Just want to say thank god for today's production. For all the complaints, it's light years better. The simple fact that the driver order is all listed at once on the left sidebar is a big improvement over scrolling through them at the bottom in groups of five. It's hard for me to follow exactly who is where on the track.

It's also funny to me that the top 10 in this race are all names I've heard of, followed by 14-16 guys I don't recognize (except DR for Toro Rosso).

2012 was the last or second to last year for the ticker style. That style was better than even the late 2000s where they showed six names max on a graphic under the action. 

[Guest]

I'm actually good with 20 drivers. I do wish that it was more contested than 1-6 and then 7-20. I think you start adding more cars and it turns into a bit of a mess on shorter tracks when it comes to qualifying and blue flags.

[ChickenSandwich 9856]

blue flags need to be banished anyway

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

blue flags need to be banished anyway

I could go either way. If number 20 is battling with number 1 and there is a crash, that's some bullshit. But it also seems dumb to have to get over to allow a car to get even farther ahead of you. 

[utee94 15897]

If your car is faster, then you should pass.  No blue flags necessary.

A backmarker crashing out a race leader is something else entirely, and there are already rules in place to manage those wrecking situations.

[Updawg 2327]

I’ve seen quotes from zack brown excited about a new US team. Who knows if that was BS lip service though

Is bullshit to not max out the field.

[Hawndoh 2401]

Supposedly the Andretti-Cadillac possible car would only use Renault engines for 2025, and Cadillac would provide their own engine starting in 2026.

If they actually get into the sport.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Hawndoh

[Prepuce of Doom 21124]

Silverstone 2013 is always a fun change of pace. 

[NoName 16645]

15 hours ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Wolf seems like a bitch in this scenario. 

well, yeah.

he and Horner really are basically the same person except one is a billionaire Austrian who is like 6'5" and the other is a 5'8" Brit who is a multi multi millionaire

both love bitching about anything and everything.

both think the universe is out to get them.

both defend their driver to the death.

 

[kevwun 15944]

And both are really good at what they do.  It's why I don't get hating one and loving the other.  They both react to events the same way.  For every "I can't believe Horner said that", there is a situation where Toto said the same thing.

Edited January 11, 2023 by kevwun

[utee94 15897]

17 minutes ago, kevwun said:

And both are really good at what they do.  It's why I don't get hating one and loving the other.  They both react to events the same way.  For every "I can't believe Horner said that", there is a situation where Toto said the same thing.

Someone insert The Office gif with Pam saying, "They're the same."

[G650 14303]

On 1/6/2023 at 10:24 AM, ConferenceRoom said:

You, me, and @utee94 = No Lawyer Gang. 

Hey I'm a fucking construction worker

[G650 14303]

On 1/9/2023 at 11:09 PM, wood said:

Their responsibility is to the shareholders.

100% this

[Guest]

On 1/9/2023 at 2:49 PM, Burt Macklin said:

Not sure how long you've been following F1, but Malaysia 2012 is a great race if you haven't seen it. It was a wild race with a lot of names you'll recognize, and it was cool to see the circuit since F1 hasn't raced there in a while. 

Just finished. I guess without a grasp of who is good and who isn't, it doesn't move the needle much. I know Perez taking second was a good result for them, but the actual racing was so-so. A bit interesting with the move from wet to dry, but once Perez lost it in the corner and Alonso gained +5 seconds, the race was over.

That McLaren Vodafone livery is underrated. It looks good. The cars with the high nose and low front wing look awful. Glad that's gone.

[ConferenceRoom 6155]

Honestly, going through 2012 from start to finish is the way to go. So much parity. Schumacher still had it. The tracks were phenomenal. COTA's first year. Alonso dragging a red donkey around the world. I can't believe it's been 11 years. 

[VABuckeye 2472]

2 hours ago, G650 said:

Hey I'm a fucking construction worker

Me too.  Well, my company works on construction sites.

Edited January 11, 2023 by VABuckeye

[Burt Macklin 19125]

5 hours ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Just finished. I guess without a grasp of who is good and who isn't, it doesn't move the needle much. I know Perez taking second was a good result for them, but the actual racing was so-so. A bit interesting with the move from wet to dry, but once Perez lost it in the corner and Alonso gained +5 seconds, the race was over.

That McLaren Vodafone livery is underrated. It looks good. The cars with the high nose and low front wing look awful. Glad that's gone.

 

4 hours ago, ConferenceRoom said:

Honestly, going through 2012 from start to finish is the way to go. So much parity. Schumacher still had it. The tracks were phenomenal. COTA's first year. Alonso dragging a red donkey around the world. I can't believe it's been 11 years. 

Agree with this. Watching 2012 and 2010 seasons all the way through in the offseason is the way to go. 

[utee94 15897]

Not sure anyone's posted this yet?  The reveal dates, so far:

February 6	Williams
February 11	AlphaTauri
February 13	Aston Martin
February 13	McLaren
February 14	Ferrari
February 16	Alpine
Four teams TBC

[Anton Chigurh 3323]

Trying not to drool on myself for an hour and sixteen minutes while watching this is hard.

[PittsburghTiger 6245]

44 minutes ago, Anton Chigurh said:

 

 

Trying not to drool on myself for an hour and sixteen minutes while watching this is hard.

 

Technological marvels. At Chip Ganassi’s office he has a couple of his Indy Car championship winning cars in the lobby. It is really cool to see them up close.

[elfenix 34387]

11 hours ago, G650 said:

Hey I'm a fucking construction worker

i'm in construction!

(law)

[TonyTexas 10573]

 

[utee94 15897]

Interior design goals:

 

 

[deft 6901]

Thank god they went for the v12 and not the new money no class hybrid era.

[elfenix 34387]

am i the only one who has not watched a single second of DTS?

[G650 14303]

9 hours ago, elfenix said:

am i the only one who has not watched a single second of DTS?

There's at least two of us.

[elfenix 34387]

[Guest]

9 hours ago, elfenix said:

am i the only one who has not watched a single second of DTS?

I've watched every season, but might sit this one out (honestly, I'll likely be so wanting for F1 by late Feb that I will end up watching). The first season is 100% the reason I follow the sport now. Great introduction/explainer into the teams, the drivers, and how everything works. I wouldn't be a fan without it.

Since then, I've watched pretty much every race, which makes DTS redundant as it's rehashing stuff where I already know how it ends. And now that I follow, the weird announcer voiceover explaining the situation is bothersome.

[Anton Chigurh 3323]

If you go into it as a comedy/to watch the zoom zoom in 4K/HDR, it’s a better experience.

[Anton Chigurh 3323]

Also, James Vowles is going to be the TP at Williams.

I like James, but I think this is actually an OK thing for Mercedes. Their strategy department was in need of a shakeup.

[utee94 15897]

DtS still has some behind the scenes bits that I enjoy seeing.  But it's definitely got a lot of contrived drama.

And that weird voiceover annoys me, too.  Reminds me of sitcoms or movies that have an "announcer over a PA" talking about the action, in situations that would never actually have an announcer.  Like a crash-up derby in Happy Days, or a Tournament of Fraternities in any number of 80s/90s comedies.

 

 

[wood 11618]

Ol' Torger starting to crack open the door, ever so slightly?

GM/Cadillac tie-up with Andretti ‘a statement’ - Wolff

https://racer.com/2023/01/13/gm-cadillac-tie-up-with-andretti-a-statement-wolff/

Quote

“Cadillac and GM, that’s a statement,” Wolff said. “Certainly them joining forces with Andretti is definitely a positive, gives it another angle that may or may not be beneficial for Formula 1, but nobody would ever question GM or Cadillac’s pedigree in motorsport and obviously as a global auto company.”

 

[Guest]

I don't know the ins and outs of all this, but fucking Haas has an F1 team. There are weird and shady sponsors all over the place in the sport.

What's the damn issue with having them join?

Edited January 13, 2023 by FirstTimeCaller

[wood 11618]

6 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

I don't know the ins and outs of all this, but fucking Haas has an F1 team. There are weird and shady sponsors all over the place in the sport.

What's the damn issue with having them join?

The teams basically want a franchise system like in many pro sports, so instead they just instituted a $200M entry fee, thinking that would keep the riffraff out. I guess they didn't anticipate an entry from a storied, wealthy team with deep-pocketed backers including a 120 year old auto manufacturer. Now they're talking about raising the 'entry fee' to $500-600M LOL.

Edited January 13, 2023 by wood

[Guest]

Just now, wood said:

The teams basically want a franchise system like in many pro sports, so instead they just instituted a $200M entry fee, thinking that would keep the rif raf out. I guess they didn't anticipate an entry from a storied, wealthy team with deep-pocketed backers inclding a 120 year old auto manufacturer. Now they're talking about raising the 'entry fee' to $500-600M LOL.

Is Andretti/GM/Cadillac considered riff-raff? Is this teams not wanting more competition? 

[wood 11618]

10 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Is Andretti/GM/Cadillac considered riff-raff? Is this teams not wanting more competition? 

1st part ... if you go by the comments from some in the paddock, apparently yes, Andretti is a nobody in the racing world and 'not credible', and the Cadillac tie-in is just a 'branding exercise' (even though F1 has seen many branding exercises and still does to this day). But yeah, they're totally cool with the likes of Haas because Haas filled a hole in the grid, is just happy to be there, and isn't gonna step on any meaningful toes in any meaningful way.

Re: the competition, they're putting business ahead of the competition. They don't want any dilution of the prize money split, and seem to be ignoring any potential sweetening of the pot that the addition of a successful American team with one of the biggest names in racing could bring in the American market they've been so desperate to tap.

Basically they're just throwing out excuses to protect their own self interests, moving the goalposts to keep everyone out.

Edited January 13, 2023 by wood

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, wood said:

1st part ... if you go by the comments from some in the paddock, apparently yes, Andretti is a nobody in the racing world and 'not credible', and the Cadillac tie-in is just a 'branding exercise' (even though F1 has seen many branding exercises and still does to this day).

Re: the competition, they're putting business ahead of the competition. They don't want any dilution of the prize money split, and seem to be ignoring any potential sweetening of the pot that the addition of a successful American team with one of the biggest names in racing could bring in the American market they've been so desperate to tap.

If this was before the DTS boost, I assume adding this team would be no issue?

[wood 11618]

4 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

If this was before the DTS boost, I assume adding this team would be no issue?

Probably.

Re: that boopst, though, I think the boost is the result of a combination of factors, that DTS is a part of that, but other stronger influences exacerbated the effect. Like pent-up demand from more than a year of disruption in the calendar, people spending more than usual to get out and do things after being shut in by covid for so long, etc, etc.

FOM and the teams are enjoying riding the wave, but they have to realize that's what it is, and it will eventually hit the beach. Times are good in F1 but they won't always be. At some point in a few years, someone will leave, maybe more than one. Maybe an engine manufacturer, etc. Then they'll be scrambling to fill the grid (which is still 3 teams down as we speak), and nobody will want to join.

Edited January 13, 2023 by wood

[Anton Chigurh 3323]

From a team valuation perspective, that increase has mostly come from the cost cap.

[G650 14303]

1 hour ago, wood said:

but nobody would ever question GM or Cadillac’s pedigree in motorsport and obviously as a global auto company.”

[elfenix 34387]

1 hour ago, wood said:

The teams basically want a franchise system like in many pro sports, so instead they just instituted a $200M entry fee, thinking that would keep the riffraff out. I guess they didn't anticipate an entry from a storied, wealthy team with deep-pocketed backers including a 120 year old auto manufacturer. Now they're talking about raising the 'entry fee' to $500-600M LOL.

i think they also don't want a bunch of team turnover.  jordan became midland became spyker (now that factory is racing as aston martin, but even that was a close thing with stroll needing a ride and daddy having money to just burn).  arrows became super aguri then sold off for a potential rebranding to brabham but collapsed entirely.  even toyota, with huge pockets because they haven't re-engineered a road car in 50 years, tried to money whip the sport, wasn't happy with results, didn't have a deep history of motor sport, and finally left for other pastures.  which then lead to the 2010 debacle with two teams not getting off the ground (stefan, which bought toyota's team, and US F1, which was kinda haas-affiliated) and two others that collapsed after a couple of seasons (manor/marrusia/virgin and HRT). 

 

2 hours ago, G650 said:

GM has more motorsport chops than toyota did, at least, with nascar, indycar, and imsa. 

[wood 11618]

2 minutes ago, elfenix said:

i think they also don't want a bunch of team turnover.  jordan became midland became spyker (now that factory is racing as aston martin, but even that was a close thing with stroll needing a ride and daddy having money to just burn).  arrows became super aguri then sold off for a potential rebranding to brabham but collapsed entirely.  even toyota, with huge pockets because they haven't re-engineered a road car in 50 years, tried to money whip the sport, wasn't happy with results, didn't have a deep history of motor sport, and finally left for other pastures.  which then lead to the 2010 debacle with two teams not getting off the ground (stefan, which bought toyota's team, and US F1, which was kinda haas-affiliated) and two others that collapsed after a couple of seasons (manor/marrusia/virgin and HRT). 

 

GM has more motorsport chops than toyota did, at least, with nascar, indycar, and imsa. 

Yep GM has loads of racing history between Cadillac, Holden, and Chevy.

Re: Manor, Marussia, Virgin, and HRT, some or all of those entered under the pretense that the teams sold them - that they'd be operating under a budget cap. So they joined, then the teams renegged. The writing was on the wall for them, and their clocks started ticking. The other thing is that these manufacturers come and go. Only Ferrari has never left F1. Renault, Honda, and Merc come and go. And like you said there's Toyota, BMW, Ford, Porsche, etc. The manufacturers are like politicians. As soon as it costs more than the benefit, they're out. The teams acting as if all of them have some kind of monolithic, permanent F1 status is silly.