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What the fuck is wrong with you, Southwest Airlines?

Parliament

By Parliament
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HamsterHookah

HamsterHookah 112

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Captainant said:

What you're describing is why it's extremely dangerous to outsource for your main engineering talent and effort. It's also why I've never EVER seen a successful TCS or accenture engagement lol. They'll happily bill you millions for a hot steaming pile of shit, because some idiot MBA signed a SOW to throw money at his problem that he doesn't understand or really give a shit to learn about. And nevermind that it only further cements terrible legacy tech debt, because now there's even more sunk cost fallacy to influence decision making

Sure, you can keep kicking the can down the road, and sure it'll probably get you to next quarter when you'll FINALLY have bandwidth to handle it (yeah right lmao), but this SWA debacle is where that leads.

 

37 minutes ago, Homercles said:

This.  One of my core roles is managing the outside spend budget for two orgs…mine (data engineering) and shitsville (process engineering).  
 

My team has carefully curated talent in dev and deploy for hybrid cloud organized federally…we manage the core ETL/Services and govern the federated workspaces.  We spend our money on core licenses and one partner that is brought in hourly as staff aug for specialized tools or pipeline optimization…they build in our ecosystem using the same tools available to all.  

Shitsville pays ‘E2E’ vendors a flat quarterly rate to outsource processes and what they call data science…most of what they produce runs in legacy VMs using R with hard-coded credentials in plain text that crashes every time a corp-mandated password change rolls out.  

Working with that team is like The Front Fell Off since a wave hit it at sea and where the mess is ‘not in the environment’

No offense, but your POV's seem pretty one-sided from the internal, central IT perspective.

As a consultant and delivery partner I've been a part of many, many "digital transformation" projects and invariably the reason we are brought in is because your CEO/C-Suite doesn't trust you. They don't believe the talent in-house can execute on big, board-level, mention-on-earnings-calls transformational projects. In most organizations you have a bunch of great wrench turners who can do what they are asked to do in a narrowly defined skill and responsibility set. Great. But, when, for example, you are rationalizing off 200 instances of ECS to 1 instance of S/4HANA you need a team of Accenture folks (or pick your poison, but you namedropped ACN) then, yes, it's gonna be multiple multiple millions of dollars with messy scope creep because your own executives and technical staff didn't even understand their own internal instances and processes and scope of work. An optimal approach, in my experience, is a good blend of bringing your SME's and in-house central IT along with the consulting and delivery partners.

I haven't worked with Southwest Airlines. From what I understand they are not fun to work with and they don't often pick best-in-breed solutions. They often go with scrappier, smaller-but-smart (read: cheaper) firms which seemed to be on brand for them as a scrappy, cheap but smart organization. 

But I have consulted with American Airlines in multiple ways-- from some IBM stuff (they are a huge IBM shop) to some M&A and business/process/IT integration stuff with some regional airline folded in the American Eagle brand. AA for all their faults is at least attempting to invest, to modernize, and to cater to the customer experience with digital products, mobile products and ease-to-use (as mentioned multiple times on this thread). As most know, it's difficult with an organization of this size like trying to turn around a battleship, I mean just getting an MSA and legal paperwork done took nearly a year with AA if that gives any insight.

I'm feeling pretty validated here because I've always thought Southwest was a half a step up from the budget airlines (e.g. Spirit, Frontier, etc.) and being someone who flies a ton having to deal with American Airlines garbage from time to time was worth it due to the executive platinum benefits, especially with international travel.

Anyways, it will be interesting to see what sort of changes this national PR disaster will compel within Southwest's leadership and business. The new CEO could use this to really define his time in the top seat, but like was mentioned-- could the public have a short term memory about this and just chalk it up to general airline shenanigans? For example I didn't even remember the Delta meltdown mentioned the last few posts (and am not a Delta guy so maybe that's why).

Edited by HamsterHookah
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HornOnTheBayou
HornOnTheBayou

Did the airline lose their luggage? If so, everything that they've got is just what they have on.

tx ind
tx ind

"We didn't cancel flights, we just ran out of flight scheduling technology" -Bob Jordan

Chopper
Chopper

Looking forward to SWA's 2023 marketing campaign. Southwest Airlines: The Spirit of today, the Frontier of tomorrow.

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Rimbo

Rimbo 26070

Posted
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2 hours ago, Blotto said:

Its an important distinction, but I'm still inclined to believe the real "difficulties" come  down to finding the money or ROI justification rather than a lack of available technological firepower. And I guess a follow-up question would be, if airlines weren't encumbered with their current business processes, how much easier would it be to  architect and then automate equipment/crew scheduling and IROP procedures from scratch. If that would simplify things, than its basically more a business issue than a tech issue.

What about the manual process that Southwest is forced to implement right now could not be replicated in code if you have the necessary data to make a decision? 

WN is facing an existential crisis right now, and literally every other airline in existence has somehow found the ROI.

There's no explanation other than gross negligence and incompetence.

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Skipper

Skipper 6197

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Regarding the driving vs. flying distinctions, I agree with most of the driving takes if kids involved and not over 8-9 hours.  But when no kids, there aren't many better things than the airport and airplane beer before and during flight if going for vacation. Even though maybe wouldn't have saved much time point to point, I was all in flying Dallas to San Antonio for a 24 trip but now no desire to drive it post cancellation.  If Von-Lane had a Dallas to San Antonio route I would have jumped all over that though.

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13523

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I've often seen that some technology problems are only addressed after high impact issues occur. This happens daily with data security with data hacks or theft. A CEO could be denying the budget on Monday, problems occur on Tues and budget is approved on Wednesday.  Along with the CIO moving on as well.

 

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gmr548

gmr548 16612

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I believe you.  Is it possible that they've simply outgrown their model?  It worked well when they were more regional, I suppose.  I still trust them to get me where I'm going (domestically) better than the legacy carriers, just based on my own experience over the years.  I travel quite a bit for work and use most of the major airlines with some frequency.  I often eschew Southwest as they have so many connecting flights and I need to get where I'm going quickly, but I can't remember how many times a legacy carrier failed me for one stupid reason or another and simply booking a different flight on southwest ended up getting me where I needed to go faster than waiting on AA, DElta, United, etc. to get their shit together and provide an alternative. 

Delta is an objectively higher performing airline in terms of getting you where you’re going, on time, and has been for years.
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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13523

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Don't unaccompanied minors (5-11 on SWA) have to be on a plane that is non-stop? The only way they would be abandoned in a city is if the adult dropping them off didn't wait for the flight to leave. Or someone didn't meet them.  I'm sure both occur and SWA has ops to handle next step. Which probably should involve CPS.

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Rimbo

Rimbo 26070

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28 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I've often seen that some technology problems are only addressed after high impact issues occur. This happens daily with data security with data hacks or theft. A CEO could be denying the budget on Monday, problems occur on Tues and budget is approved on Wednesday.  Along with the CIO moving on as well.

 

I've changed my view on this in the past decades. I used to blame the bean counters and saw the CIO as a fall guy. Now, I believe it's the CIO's job to demonstrate the ROI. If the CEO is a narcissist who demands yes-men and can't handle the role of making that decision, given a clear ROI outline, then you can blame the CEO -- and the CIO will have little difficulty finding a new gig.

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Samson's Wig

Samson's Wig 3194

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20 minutes ago, gmr548 said:


Delta is an objectively higher performing airline in terms of getting you where you’re going, on time, and has been for years.

Are you married to Delta or just fucking her?

;)

My experience may be a bit dated, admittedly, but I do fly Delta a lot and still just cross my fingers and hope for the best.  They were the bottom of the barrel for so long it's difficult to come around to the notion that they finally got their shit together, even if it's objectively true.

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sidis

sidis 9832

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3 hours ago, Captain Ron said:

Not nearly at the level that SWA is doing it right now. They are on a galactically incompetent level right now. Trying to say "well so do the other carriers..." isn't even logically close to the same thing right now.

I should have quoted the post I was responding to…I wasn’t talking about cancellations. I was responding to someone talking about united gouging prices in response to the mass SWA cancellations. I was just saying that American did it too as our only option was flying out of ABQ to LAX to AUS for $3k per ticket. 

Hello from the New Mexico-Texas border between Tatum and Plains. 

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HamsterHookah

HamsterHookah 112

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5 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

I've changed my view on this in the past decades. I used to blame the bean counters and saw the CIO as a fall guy. Now, I believe it's the CIO's job to demonstrate the ROI. If the CEO is a narcissist who demands yes-men and can't handle the role of making that decision, given a clear ROI outline, then you can blame the CEO -- and the CIO will have little difficulty finding a new gig.

At the risk of taking us into a completely different conversation, in most organizations the role of CIO has changed in modern times. I realize I'm generalizing here, but what I've seen and what I think the data backs up is that the modern CIO isn't strategic and they aren't asked to bring the CEO solutions to complex problems. They are dictated to from the CEO/CFO/LOB leaders. They are handed a list of big rock business priorities and told to go make that happen. So when someone comes along with a better way or to help them, amazing ROI or not, if it's not on their radar, it's not going to get it's day in court until maybe the next fiscal if he wants to fight for it.

That is why like the guy you responded to says, it takes a big business black-eye to create a priority and all of a sudden you have budget and a need to fix an issue when it becomes a national nightmare, like this one.

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HamsterHookah

HamsterHookah 112

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2 minutes ago, sidis said:

I should have quoted the post I was responding to…I wasn’t talking about cancellations. I was responding to someone talking about united gouging prices in response to the mass SWA cancellations. I was just saying that American did it too as our only option was flying out of ABQ to LAX to AUS for $3k per ticket. 

Hello from the New Mexico-Texas border between Tatum and Plains. 

It's not price-gouging as much as it is dynamic pricing and the demand being exceptional to the supply in a last minute crunch. The decision engine technology that flex that price don't hate you personally. I guess AA could override and keep a static price as a goodwill gesture and good PR.

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Homercles

Homercles 10206

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1 minute ago, HamsterHookah said:

It's not price-gouging as much as it is dynamic pricing and the demand being exceptional to the supply in a last minute crunch. The decision engine technology that flex that price don't hate you personally. I guess AA could override and keep a static price as a goodwill gesture and good PR.

Yeah but sometimes it’s an evil bitch…like when a few of us are experimenting with different fares/pricing/routes, and the system senses a rising demand = prices start changing.  In reality it’s just a couple people game planning.  

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DaysOff

DaysOff 7971

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It's not price-gouging as much as it is dynamic pricing and the demand being exceptional to the supply in a last minute crunch. The decision engine technology that flex that price don't hate you personally. I guess AA could override and keep a static price as a goodwill gesture and good PR.
SWA also doesn't have interline agreements with other carriers, so their agents can't try to book on another carrier. Not that there's capacity on anyone's system.
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ballrific

ballrific 215

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Shit. Just remembered that we are on SWA nonstops to and from ABQ in a bit over three weeks.

I may ditch that reservation (was done with points) and find an alternate carrier.
Same, supposed to fly nonstop from Austin to ABQ this next Monday. Guess just check morning of and if it says "delayed", hit eject and cancel?
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OU Sucks

OU Sucks 8912

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4 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

The unassigned seats and the point to point system are literally chiseled in stone at SWA and I don't get it.  They refuse to even consider anything otherwise.  If they were great ideas, other people would be stealing them.

Woah woah woah, Southwest can't even keep track of where their employees are....having passengers assigned to specific seats would be chaos!

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ABSR

ABSR 5323

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58 minutes ago, Bevo said:

My business neighbor said that unaccompanied minors have been left stranded in random cities. True or nah?

Unless there is some magical unaccompanied minor plane that shows up to carry them to their destination when everyone else does not have a plane, then almost assuredly there are.  And very likely indignant Karen like parents blaming everyone but themselves for shipping off the kiddos alone during the busiest travel time of the year after watching the 3-day news flood about the impending winter weather issue.

Sucks for the kids though.

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Rimbo

Rimbo 26070

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8 minutes ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

I'll see your China Eastern and raise you a Biman (Bangladesh) Airlines.  I've done both; CE was lovely in comparison.

Well, I haven't flown them, and don't plan to. Haven't flown Aeroflot, either. After the China Eastern experience, we pretty much stuck with the two big Korean carriers for our trips to Qingdao. Now those are some good airlines. Was a shorter trip going through Incheon, too.

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Captain Ron

Captain Ron 12914

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2 hours ago, Samson's Wig said:

I hate flying, passionately.  I've always struggled with sinus problems, and flying can be excruciatingly painful.  But, it was the security measures that have been put in place over the last two decades that really ruined it for me.  It takes too fucking long to fly, which cuts into the convenience aspect mightily for most domestic flights.  The ROI for flying just isn't always there for me.  If I can drive there in ten hours and the entire flying experience is 8 hours door to door, I'll take the car every time.

I lose the battle every time when I suggest we drive somewhere, as the rest of the family hates driving.  I had hopes that this fiasco was my opportunity. We're supposed to head up Ontario to see the family on Thursday, flying Delta from Austin to Detroit and then driving into Canada.  I suggested that we drive avoid all of the shenanigans (mostly concerned that we won't have a rental car available when we get to Detroit in spite of the reservation).  No dice.   Not only will be going to the airport at 4:00AM on Thursday, we will be checking bags too, because how can you possibly go to Canada in winter with a small suitcase?   I just want to cancel the whole thing and lie on the couch watching sports for the week.  But alas.   Now I'm going to have to work overtime to not lose my shit when we inevitably lose a suitcase, can't get a rental car, or otherwise get stranded.

Where the fuck can you drive 10 hours that it takes 8 hours door to door to fly?

I live in Winchester, MA (just outside Boston) and just flew home for after Christmas (American Airlines for the win you SWA suckas). That basically 4.5 hours flying. Even driving to/from Dripping Springs we’re barely taking 8 hours door to door.

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Sgt Hulk

Sgt Hulk 13837

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I never understood why anyone would fly before or after a holiday like this. And before I hear the. Muh family.  I’ve been active duty north of 2 decades so I get it but flying the day after TG or Christmas is asking for a shit show. Add in your 3 kids and 16 pieces of luggage and it’s ripe 

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Bevo

Bevo 13600

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1 minute ago, HamsterHookah said:

It's not price-gouging as much as it is dynamic pricing and the demand being exceptional to the supply in a last minute crunch. The decision engine technology that flex that price don't hate you personally. I guess AA could override and keep a static price as a goodwill gesture and good PR.

Interestingly, the dynamic pricing didn't kick in for our last minute flight from Atlanta to Austin. Atlanta to New Orleans was $225 per person on Delta and New Orleans to Austin was $225 per ticket on American. SWA cancelled their NO to Austin flight at the last minute so there were at least 30 people who caught our flight. It was from my understanding still $225 per person.

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Bevo

Bevo 13600

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3 minutes ago, Sgt Hulk said:

I never understood why anyone would fly before or after a holiday like this. And before I hear the. Muh family.  I’ve been active duty north of 2 decades so I get it but flying the day after TG or Christmas is asking for a shit show. Add in your 3 kids and 16 pieces of luggage and it’s ripe 

Kids typically only have Christmas and Spring Break. So, people with children are forced to travel during the holidays.

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Guadaloopy

Guadaloopy 11013

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Just now, Sgt Hulk said:

I never understood why anyone would fly before or after a holiday like this. And before I hear the. Muh family.  I’ve been active duty north of 2 decades so I get it but flying the day after TG or Christmas is asking for a shit show. Add in your 3 kids and 16 pieces of luggage and it’s ripe 

This.  20 yrs of AD conditioned my family not expect me for the Holidays.  Now I get to spend the Holidays with my local friends and visit my family when the rest of the country isn't going nuts.  I recently moved to be within a 7 hr drive of my folks and my in-laws, which lets me forego the flying experience altogether.  

1 minute ago, Bevo said:

Kids typically only have Christmas and Spring Break. So, people with children are forced to travel during the holidays.

Nope.

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CooterBrown

CooterBrown 18027

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Posted
Don't unaccompanied minors (5-11 on SWA) have to be on a plane that is non-stop?


It can have stops but no plane changes. I’d bet plenty of flights got grounded during a stop when their existing crew timed out.

I was on a flight from TUL>DAL>AUS a few years ago and some Okie dad out his 7YO daughter on that plane that had another leg through PHX before getting her to her grandma in San Diego. It was late afternoon flight from Tulsa and he put this kid on a plane with zero food and no entertainment for the next 7 hours. In Dallas, some passengers threw in some money and bought her chik fil a, some other snacks, and some coloring and puzzle books.
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Guest

Guest

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Son is flying from DFW to San Diego on AMA and he said 42 people were on standby as they boarded.

He also said the military chat boards with regard to people trying to get back to post after leave are filled with crazy ass stories.  Basically when people are calling in to command, the expectation is that they make every effort to report on time.  This might be that one time when some extreme shit is gonna have to be excused.

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YGIFS

YGIFS 19452

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I think when the kids get older, we may venture up to Chicago to see grandma.  For now, both of our families know our address and that I'll pick up most of the tab.  They choose not to fly down here to see their grandkids, that's on them.  They're of the age where they patter downstairs in their slippers to see what Santa brought and one day that's gone.  And we can go suffer in an airport.  Meantime, grown adults with 2 bags can come see us.  

All that said, my heart goes out to the tens of thousands of folks stranded out there across the chilly-ass nation.  But it was not all in vain, folks.  We started a thread about you and it turned into who likes what first class lounge abroad the most.  It was not all for nothing!  

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Viking

Viking 301

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5 hours ago, Pancho said:

 

This is just amazing. Southwest is too fucking cheap to buy every crew member an iphone that has a corp app that lets HQ know where they are at all times. Such an easy problem to solve.

I worked on a POC for a hotel company that'd allow you to track your room service order as it moved through the hotel. "We want Uber for room service!" All of the tech was already there (great app, beacons in every hall of the hotel so you could unlock the room with your phone). It was just done at 1 hotel but they knew where a hamburger was better than SWA knows where a pilot is.

 

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Ghost of LL

Ghost of LL 15539

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11 minutes ago, Tailgate said:

Just heard the “Silent Strike” theory.

Seeing how SWAPA (pilots), TWU 556 (flight attendants), and TWU 550 (flight dispatch) are all on the attack on Twitter against their own airline using nearly identical language, I'm starting to buy into this theory.

As pointed out above, Southwest's crew scheduling relies on pilots and flight attendants picking up the phone when they're called to pick up a flight.  And so it's really easy for a pilot/FA to "miss" the call.  And a lot of this is being caused by crew scheduling problems.

I don't know how much of this is a concerted work action.  But if it were, this is exactly what it would look like.

 

Oh, and from a corporate communications standpoint, this is absolutely the direction Southwest should take.  Americans fucking hate unions.  I mean, yeah--they're responsible for the 40-hour workweek and OSHA and . . . well, virtually every workplace improvement over the past century.  But Americans fucking hate them.  They make a fantastic scapegoat. 

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Gil Bang

Gil Bang 26007

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14 minutes ago, Viking said:

This is just amazing. Southwest is too fucking cheap to buy every crew member an iphone that has a corp app that lets HQ know where they are at all times. Such an easy problem to solve.

I worked on a POC for a hotel company that'd allow you to track your room service order as it moved through the hotel. "We want Uber for room service!" All of the tech was already there (great app, beacons in every hall of the hotel so you could unlock the room with your phone). It was just done at 1 hotel but they knew where a hamburger was better than SWA knows where a pilot is.

 

Every FA on AA has an Iphone that they use for everything.  No idea about pilots.

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DaysOff

DaysOff 7971

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The silent strike theory is the dumbest shit and probably being pushed by certain networks. An illegal action is a great way for your union to get a big chunk of their war chest seized via fine.

Our meger pushed IT forward as two airlines with 100+ operating systems that didn't talk to each other needed upgrading anyway.

I haven't talked to scheduling in years. Any modifications are pushed to our smartphones or ipads. We just need to push a button to acknowledge it.

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Chopper

Chopper 17245

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Posted (edited)

SWA reaffirmed today that the problems they're facing are edit: NOT due to their employees. SWA management itself discredits the quiet strike "theory." I think we can put that bit of bs to rest. Southwest Airlines Explains What Went Wrong (and Where the Blame Lies) (msn.com)

"Southwest is not understaffed, but we have had issues with our scheduling tools. Not a staffing issue, a scheduling issue," the airline said, further referring to a statement on its website.

In that statement, the airline said it was "fully staffed and prepared for the approaching holiday weekend." The severe weather, however, overwhelmed the airline's scheduling tools, according to Southwest.

"These operational conditions forced daily changes to our flight schedule at a volume and magnitude that still has the tools our teams use to recover the airline operating at capacity," the airline shared.

That's very awkward wording, but basically the airline's scheduling system for pilots and flight attendants has been overwhelmed.

Edited by Chopper
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