The Rio Grande is Dying

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20,496]

The shit is about to hit the fan. You couldn't pay me to buy a house in El Paso or Laredo right now.

A war over water is going to be a sad thing, indeed.  

https://www.texasobserver.org/rio-grande-water-drifting-toward-disaster/

 

[RPM 26,355]

Colorado River says hello

[Nivek 16,987]

It has been mined dry for a long time.

[Bateshorn 9,942]

This was just outside the mouth of Santa Elena last December.   That’s Mexico on the right 

[Dewey 3,294]

16 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

This was just outside the mouth of Santa Elena last December.   That’s Mexico on the right 

How was the fishing? 

[Bateshorn 9,942]

56 minutes ago, Dewey said:

How was the fishing? 

Lol.

 

Mostly what struck me was the footprints in the dead pools in the canyon itself.  I don’t know if it was migrants or just stupid tourists, but the river didn’t have enough flow to scour them away. 

[Guest]

Huh!  I expected Rio Grande to be little  Grande-ier than this!

I was thinking the same thing...

That Marty Robbins is full of shit man!

[Trey3216 15,358]

Llewelyn Moss would’ve had a much tougher time against those pit bulls today than 40 years ago.   

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,523]

I was at Big Bend in August. Couldn’t even think about walking into Santa Elena canyon with the high water.

[Bevo 13,601]

The Rio Grande has never been grand. It has been like this since about forever and just gets worse with agriculture and population growth. In New Mexico, rafting hasn't changed nor have the headwaters.

[Bevo 13,601]

Damn, too slow in my edit.

In New Mexico, the headwaters haven't changed. This upcoming year should actually be a good year for rafting. The Rio Grande has never been grand. It has pretty meh since about forever. I have seen a drop in Big Bend since I went as kid but it hasn't been dramatic. Still I am sure that it will just get worse with agriculture and population growth until there are places where it doesn't flow.

[texashorne 1,178]

20 hours ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

The shit is about to hit the fan. You couldn't pay me to buy a house in El Paso or Laredo right now.

A war over water is going to be a sad thing, indeed.  

https://www.texasobserver.org/rio-grande-water-drifting-toward-disaster/

 

It's funny you wouldn't buy a house in Laredo.. because the river is shrinking. Like you would have otherwise..LOL

[Pato del Muerto 52,608]

Name change to Rio Pequeño?

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20,496]

On 12/31/2022 at 8:07 AM, texashorne said:

It's funny you wouldn't buy a house in Laredo.. because the river is shrinking. Like you would have otherwise..LOL

If I got offered a great job in Laredo I'd move there. I just wouldn't rent. I've got nothing against any of the border towns.

[High Plains Drifter 11,052]

On 12/31/2022 at 6:57 AM, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I was at Big Bend in August. Couldn’t even think about walking into Santa Elena canyon with the high water.

 

The Rio Concho flows into the Rio Grande near Presidio. Upstream from there, the Rio Grande is nothing more than a ditch, at best. Downstream from there, through big bend all the way to Lake Amistad, the flow of the Rio Grande is determined mainly by the flow coming in from the Rio Concho. Rain in mexico has a bigger influence on the flow of the Rio grande through big bend than any other factor.

And yes, the flow through big bend this year was epic, due to heavy rains in mexico, and mexico releasing a lot of water from the dam they have across the Concho. I believe I posted a heads up in the big bend thread some months back.

 

El Paso doesn't get its water from the Rio Grande. Fun fact: El paso operates the world's largest inland desalinization plant to get its drinking water from brackish ground water.

 

[High Plains Drifter 11,052]

On 12/30/2022 at 2:10 PM, Bateshorn said:

This was just outside the mouth of Santa Elena last December.   That’s Mexico on the right 

 

4 months ago, where you are standing would have been under at least a couple feet of water. You wouldn't have been able to stand up.

 

Not sure what its like now. I need to plan a canoe trip down thataways in a few months before it gets too hot.

 

 

 

[GreenspointTexas 9,675]

Sounds crazy, but how/why doesnt the govt do the farming for people? 
 

what is all of the sudden, overnight, thousands of texans wanted to be farmers and bought land bordering the rio and siphoned water from it? 

[BabaYaga 15,321]

1 hour ago, GreenspointTexas said:

Sounds crazy, but how/why doesnt the govt do the farming for people? 

Mao says hold my beer

[High Plains Drifter 11,052]

7 hours ago, GreenspointTexas said:

Sounds crazy, but how/why doesnt the govt do the farming for people? 
 

what is all of the sudden, overnight, thousands of texans wanted to be farmers and bought land bordering the rio and siphoned water from it? 

 

I think in many cases water rights to Rio grande surface water go all the way back to Texas Independence from Mexico, if not farther back to Spain. I would imagine the water rights are transferred with the land. This was a big problem with the idea of a wall-- riverside land owners would be cut off from their water rights.

[RollLeft 5,045]

On 12/31/2022 at 7:26 AM, Bevo said:

The Rio Grande has never been grand. It has been like this since about forever and just gets worse with agriculture and population growth. In New Mexico, rafting hasn't changed nor have the headwaters.

 The difference between the RG in New Mexico vs the version that Texas gets is vast.  There are many parts of the river in NM that are grand, wide and deep.  The use and damming in that state should be discussed more.  The meager creek water that enters Texas then has hundreds of miles to go in the desert.  Texas is a huge state.  The river survives only by being fed by the convergence in Del Rio and other rivers down to Port Isabel.     

[Post Oak 20,276]

On 1/2/2023 at 10:04 PM, High Plains Drifter said:

 

The Rio Concho flows into the Rio Grande near Presidio. Upstream from there, the Rio Grande is nothing more than a ditch, at best. Downstream from there, through big bend all the way to Lake Amistad, the flow of the Rio Grande is determined mainly by the flow coming in from the Rio Concho. Rain in mexico has a bigger influence on the flow of the Rio grande through big bend than any other factor.

And yes, the flow through big bend this year was epic, due to heavy rains in mexico, and mexico releasing a lot of water from the dam they have across the Concho. I believe I posted a heads up in the big bend thread some months back.

 

El Paso doesn't get its water from the Rio Grande. Fun fact: El paso operates the world's largest inland desalinization plant to get its drinking water from brackish ground water.

 

I've done some reading up on El Paso's water wise programs and future planning and it seems like they have their shit together. 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,523]

CSB warning. In the early 90s as I was a UT undergrad uncertain about what classes to take much less a career path, I was talking an Austin lawyer about law careers. Surprisingly I asked him a relevant question in what area of the law was underserved but growing. He said water rights. Sounded boring to me.  With a poor GPA and half-hearted attempt at the LSAT, I steered away from law school.

[Samson's Wig 3,194]

I'm a little surprised Colorado hasn't been mentioned yet, as they're the fuckers that use up the vast majority of water that would otherwise flow south. The headwaters are there, not New Mexico.  Thanks to antiquated water rights laws, they get away with using way more water than needed.  Those fuckers pump water uphill to grow crops on mesas.   New Mexico has a negligible impact by comparison.  

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,523]

My uneducated opinion is that current farmers should be locked into their current water usage, but with a condition that it's reviewed, without guaranteed, renewal every 20 years. then the federal govt should start buying farm land and retiring it along with that states and farm's water rights.

the one flaw that I see is that our farm output decreases but maybe that has its positives as well.

[MoJames 8,255]

14 minutes ago, Samson's Wig said:

I'm a little surprised Colorado hasn't been mentioned yet, as they're the fuckers that use up the vast majority of water that would otherwise flow south. The headwaters are there, not New Mexico.  Thanks to antiquated water rights laws, they get away with using way more water than needed.  Those fuckers pump water uphill to grow crops on mesas.   New Mexico has a negligible impact by comparison.  

me from Colorado

[PTINS 3,485]

On 12/30/2022 at 11:57 AM, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

The shit is about to hit the fan. You couldn't pay me to buy a house in El Paso or Laredo right now.

A war over water is going to be a sad thing, indeed.  

https://www.texasobserver.org/rio-grande-water-drifting-toward-disaster/

 

Great article, thanks for posting.  Thank you Surly, again, for a forum for others to share information.

Too many people and not enough water.

A lot of hands out for a dwindling water resource, with more hands coming and less water every day. 

New Mexico has one big lake on the Rio Grande about twice the volume of Lake Travis. Seasonal water makes it south to El Paso.

Kudo's to Kay Bailey Hutchinson for facilitating construction of a desalination plant for El Paso & Ft. Bliss.  Get some of that Federal money.

"Mexico" uses too much water, but it's really US Ag companies in Mexico using water they don't have the "rights" too.  Surprise, surprise.

Municipalities in the RGV have water rights, so they take their "share" of the water and use it to water the grass.  Literally taking water and pouring it out on the ground so others don't have anything to drink.  Too much? As the orchards are replaced by development, the water rights go to the municipalities. It's a "use it or lose dilemma", will they make people water the grass more often, or will they monetize "their water rights." 

“We’re praying for a hurricane,” Darling said, then corrected himself, sensitive to the region’s traumatic hurricane history. “For a benevolent tropical storm.” 

New band name, Benovolent Storm.

[PTINS 3,485]

9 minutes ago, MoJames said:

me from Colorado

The Rio Grande River headwaters in Colorado are from the San Juan Mountains & Rio Grande Forest. Wolf Creek Pass gets ~ 400" of snow/year, or about 46" of precipitation and 133 precipitation days per year. Houston gets 52" and has 104 precipitation days/yr.  Austin gets 36" and has 86 days.

The Rio Grande Gorge south of the CO/NM state line is 800 feet deep. I think the water use Colorado has from the Rio Grande are well within the water that originates there.

[GringoSalado 1,652]

55 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

My uneducated opinion is that current farmers should be locked into their current water usage, but with a condition that it's reviewed, without guaranteed, renewal every 20 years. then the federal govt should start buying farm land and retiring it along with that states and farm's water rights.

the one flaw that I see is that our farm output decreases but maybe that has its positives as well.

What you propose is nice but ignores property rights. The way it works is, you buy a farm with well defined and priced surface water rights. Some rights are better than others (I've seen water compacts like on the Alamosa or maybe Cimarron that were from Spanish times and were first-to-last, for example, i.e. most upstream got all they wanted and then the next guy etc.), but those rights entitle you to surface irrigation, but of course only if there is water. EBID (Elephant Butte Irrigation District) farmers have not gotten a full allotment (typically 24-36 inches) in a long time. You would probably have to go back 20+ years to find consecutive full-allotment years.

At any rate EPWU (El Paso Water Utilities), EBID, and various other agencies have been buying up these rights to reduce overall ag use of watershed for years. We were offered, as I recall, about $4k an acre for ours back in the mid 1980s. If you want to fill Elephant Butte up, or flood Lajitas, or stop farming in New Mexico or whatever all you have to do is buy up all those surface rights.

 

EPWU does still get most of its water from groundwater (wells) and the river, which is the same thing. Also I didn't read the OP article but there have been court cases on every NM/Texas river system since forever, I'm sure there is litigation now, and I'm sure this litigation will go on forever.

[GringoSalado 1,652]

Having a hard time finding more recent, but here is Elephant Butte Reservoir reported Acre Feet of water, 1915 - 2017. Nice when its full, which is almost never.

 

 

[MoJames 8,255]

58 minutes ago, PTINS said:

The Rio Grande River headwaters in Colorado are from the San Juan Mountains & Rio Grande Forest. Wolf Creek Pass gets ~ 400" of snow/year, or about 46" of precipitation and 133 precipitation days per year. Houston gets 52" and has 104 precipitation days/yr.  Austin gets 36" and has 86 days.

The Rio Grande Gorge south of the CO/NM state line is 800 feet deep. I think the water use Colorado has from the Rio Grande are well within the water that originates there.

Pops caught this nice brown at the headwaters last Aug. Great camping spot.

[Brisketexan 105,371]

Just crossed the Rio Grande at Espanola this weekend....running low, but that's typical for winter.  I hear the snowpack this year is good, so that could help.  But yeah...water rights and water issues in general are complicated as hell, in some cases archaic, and a bitch to sort out.

They're GREAT for lawyers who fight over them, though.  Whiskey's for drinking, water's for fighting.

[Chief Ouray 32]

5 hours ago, Samson's Wig said:

I'm a little surprised Colorado hasn't been mentioned yet, as they're the fuckers that use up the vast majority of water that would otherwise flow south. The headwaters are there, not New Mexico.  Thanks to antiquated water rights laws, they get away with using way more water than needed.  Those fuckers pump water uphill to grow crops on mesas.   New Mexico has a negligible impact by comparison.  

This is a completely inaccurate statement.  This quote is directly from a Rio Grande Compact 101 Fact Sheet:

“Colorado is required to make deliveries to New Mexico each year. These deliveries are administered on a daily basis and are measured at the Rio Grande at Lobatos Bridge stream gage near the state line. Required deliveries are calculated on a sliding scale depending on current river flows. A certain percentage is taken from the daily flows as curtailment, and that water is delivered to New Mexico and Texas.”

Water administration in Colorado is vastly superior to any other Rocky Mountain state. Irrigation of any land whether by gravity or pumped uphill would be curtailed during times of local shortage or to comply with compact requirements.  
 

I have worked for the Colorado Division of Water Resources for over 25 years.  If you have any questions, I am more than happy to explain how Colorado’s water laws function.

[High Plains Drifter 11,052]

5 hours ago, GringoSalado said:

 

EPWU does still get most of its water from groundwater (wells) and the river, which is the same thing. Also I didn't read the OP article but there have been court cases on every NM/Texas river system since forever, I'm sure there is litigation now, and I'm sure this litigation will go on forever.

 

This is a good point which a lot of people don't understand, including people who write water rights laws. El Paso taking its water from the ground still impacts downstream flow. When I said that El Paso doesn't get its water from the Rio Grande, I should have said it doesn't get its water from the Rio Grande directly.

[GringoSalado 1,652]

1 hour ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

This is a good point which a lot of people don't understand, including people who write water rights laws. El Paso taking its water from the ground still impacts downstream flow. When I said that El Paso doesn't get its water from the Rio Grande, I should have said it doesn't get its water from the Rio Grande directly.

EPWU already sued EBID several years ago for this (as farmers all started pumping fucktons of wellwater in the face of fractional surface allotments and running El Paso's wells dry), after being themselves sued by EBID 30 or so years ago for the same thing (pumping down EBID's riverwater via their wells).

 

I believe one of the wells in the latter court case is here
31.958435, -106.604246
If you want to google that you'll see it is inside the river levee, maybe 20 yards from the riverwater, if there is any flowing, about 3 miles south of the NM/TX border.

 

Once you are in Texas surface water regulation transfers from EBID to El Paso County Water Improvement or somesuch, they can and do sell water to EPWU although I have no idea how much, and they take that out of the river here:
31.658513, -106.329547

 

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by GringoSalado
fuck

[GringoSalado 1,652]

Actually if you go here

31.658531, -106.328653

you can see this avenue is blocked with a dirt dam. Maybe they clean that up when irrigation season starts. :Looks like the water actually flows into EPWU's reservoir here
31.658405, -106.328028

I think the spot I posted above is an older intake gate and the new one is at the end of the EPWID's main lateral there near the treatment plant.

/csb

Edited January 25, 2023 by GringoSalado
Jesus fuck google you motherfuckers

[PTINS 3,485]

On 1/24/2023 at 5:25 PM, Chief Ouray said:

This is a completely inaccurate statement.  This quote is directly from a Rio Grande Compact 101 Fact Sheet:

“Colorado is required to make deliveries to New Mexico each year. These deliveries are administered on a daily basis and are measured at the Rio Grande at Lobatos Bridge stream gage near the state line. Required deliveries are calculated on a sliding scale depending on current river flows. A certain percentage is taken from the daily flows as curtailment, and that water is delivered to New Mexico and Texas.”

Water administration in Colorado is vastly superior to any other Rocky Mountain state. Irrigation of any land whether by gravity or pumped uphill would be curtailed during times of local shortage or to comply with compact requirements.  
 

I have worked for the Colorado Division of Water Resources for over 25 years.  If you have any questions, I am more than happy to explain how Colorado’s water laws function.

Chief, Avatar & User Name Hall of Fame!

[hayden_horn 11,365]

On 1/24/2023 at 9:51 AM, Nice Guy Eddie said:

CSB warning. In the early 90s as I was a UT undergrad uncertain about what classes to take much less a career path, I was talking an Austin lawyer about law careers. Surprisingly I asked him a relevant question in what area of the law was underserved but growing. He said water rights. Sounded boring to me.  With a poor GPA and half-hearted attempt at the LSAT, I steered away from law school.

[Samson's Wig 3,194]

On 1/24/2023 at 5:25 PM, Chief Ouray said:

This is a completely inaccurate statement.  This quote is directly from a Rio Grande Compact 101 Fact Sheet:

“Colorado is required to make deliveries to New Mexico each year. These deliveries are administered on a daily basis and are measured at the Rio Grande at Lobatos Bridge stream gage near the state line. Required deliveries are calculated on a sliding scale depending on current river flows. A certain percentage is taken from the daily flows as curtailment, and that water is delivered to New Mexico and Texas.”

Water administration in Colorado is vastly superior to any other Rocky Mountain state. Irrigation of any land whether by gravity or pumped uphill would be curtailed during times of local shortage or to comply with compact requirements.  
 

I have worked for the Colorado Division of Water Resources for over 25 years.  If you have any questions, I am more than happy to explain how Colorado’s water laws function.

Exactly what you'd expect someone from the Colorado Division of Water Resources to say.