Joe Biden 2023: The Dark Brandon Rises

[hornmpa96 2598]

3 minutes ago, Pancho said:

Well the government (in some states) HAS found a solution—they are stopping their support and attacking education culturally, none of which makes sense. This, combined with buildings that need updating, updating campus infrastructure to be usable in the year 2023, lawsuits against a college/university, and enrollment increases/decreases, is what makes tuition rise. I know this board (and others) like to blame administrative bloat, but the salaries of administrators pales in comparison to how much the other stuff costs.

There isn’t a lack of a disclosure about how much higher ed cost. Colleges and universities have actually done a better job over the last 10 years in breaking down tuition bills and removing some junk fees that were auto generated to every student’s bill. The problem is FAFSA, and even they have made it a bit easier to fill out the form. They are still the issue, imo.

Another problem is the interest rates with the loans. Loans themselves are fine, but the interest should be a set at 0 (or 1 or 2 if they just have to make money). You shouldn’t pay your loans on time for 10 years and then see the balance go up. That’s a problem. From my experience in higher ed, students are well aware they have to pay them back. They all believe they will be able to get a job that will help them do that. Another problem is the lack of jobs in nearly all sectors for recent grads thanks to older adults staying in their jobs longer and just things in the country being generally more expensive, especially housing. 

I’d also argue a good chunk of students take out loans to pay for school thinking they will hit it big via the influencer route and be able to pay it back sooner. I’ve seen that come up A LOT over the last 5 years. 

 

A couple of thoughts on this:

1. completely agree that the approach being taken by Red states in higher Ed makes no sense. Investing in higher ed brings others to invest in your state as companies want to hire educated employees, etc.

2. On disclosure - maybe the issue isn’t disclosing the costs but the student’s expected earnings after graduating with your anticipated degree? I keep seeing anecdotes about kids getting private university degrees with significant debts in careers which can’t generate the income needed to ever repay it. The costs and the benefits ultimately need to be understood.

3. On costs, I agree that certainly inflation should be expected but why should higher Ed costs inflate more significantly than other costs in our economy. I don’t think there is one item like admin costs as it’s a multitude of items that have created the inflation.

4. The parent of any child who believes they are repaying their student loans with influencer money has failed. I had the benefit of parents who stressed the importance of taking costs into account in my college choice. That ultimately lead me to a great education at UT for a great price.

5. With respect to interest, that’s an interesting thought as if the loans are Gov’t loans, the US doesn’t need to make a profit there. It could view that as an investment in our future economy.

[TwiceHorn 31272]

I think people make a couple of mistakes on college financing.  And I'm really talking parents here, as few kids can really grok this stuff at 18.  And a goodly number of parents probably abdicate this entirely.

First, they think "it's the best, most unimpeachable investment anyone can make."  That's not totally wrong, but it still needs to be placed in some sort of cost/benefit context, as mentioned above:  what's my likely income, what are my likely payments, how crippling is this going to be?.

Second, people just aren't good at finance and can probably really only do the macro analysis:  it will probably be less than my mortgage in terms of principal, and the rates are low compared to car notes and mortgagees, and, you get a long time to pay them back, like a mortgage, so it ought to be doable.

And the market has been such that the value of a college education has been declining.  So, unlike a mortgage, it's not an investment in a growth asset.  Its greatest value is intangible.

[TwiceHorn 31272]

54 minutes ago, hornmpa96 said:

5. With respect to interest, that’s an interesting thought as if the loans are Gov’t loans, the US doesn’t need to make a profit there. It could view that as an investment in our future economy.

Well, remember, the loans are made by private institutions and guaranteed by the government.  So the interest rate incents them to make the loans, and the guaranty incents them to do it at less than commercial rates.  The government is absolutely not making money on any of this.

So, the real subsidy here is the guaranty, and if the borrower defaults, the government is still out.  They could make the loan directly, but that would probably be even more costly in terms of finding/creating some administration to underwrite and service the loans.

And it would draw objections as socialism, even before this latest iteration of the simulation.

[TwiceHorn 31272]

Finally, I think the biggest driver of cost of education has simply been underfunding by state governments, especially in Texas.

Texas withdrew support from state universities and then camouflaged that fact by deregulating tuition, which universities had been clamoring for, anyway.

Add into that the availability of student loans so demand remains inelastic, and off we go.

[NWBuck 8547]

16 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Finally, I think the biggest driver of cost of education has simply been underfunding by state governments, especially in Texas.

Texas withdrew support from state universities and then camouflaged that fact by deregulating tuition, which universities had been clamoring for, anyway.

Add into that the availability of student loans so demand remains inelastic, and off we go.

I can't speak for Texas, but I will say that the "administrative bloat" that many talk about is also a factor (and I'm speaking as an administrator). However, that 'bloat', in many situations, comes in response to new expectations and regulations from the state/federal level- all good programs/policies/practices, but additional responsibilities with the same or reduced funding leads to the budget issues highlighted here.

[TheStoicPaisano 9904]

RNC getting dunked on for this attempt.

 

[Pancho 44475]

11 hours ago, hornmpa96 said:

A couple of thoughts on this:

1. completely agree that the approach being taken by Red states in higher Ed makes no sense. Investing in higher ed brings others to invest in your state as companies want to hire educated employees, etc.

2. On disclosure - maybe the issue isn’t disclosing the costs but the student’s expected earnings after graduating with your anticipated degree? I keep seeing anecdotes about kids getting private university degrees with significant debts in careers which can’t generate the income needed to ever repay it. The costs and the benefits ultimately need to be understood.

3. On costs, I agree that certainly inflation should be expected but why should higher Ed costs inflate more significantly than other costs in our economy. I don’t think there is one item like admin costs as it’s a multitude of items that have created the inflation.

4. The parent of any child who believes they are repaying their student loans with influencer money has failed. I had the benefit of parents who stressed the importance of taking costs into account in my college choice. That ultimately lead me to a great education at UT for a great price.

5. With respect to interest, that’s an interesting thought as if the loans are Gov’t loans, the US doesn’t need to make a profit there. It could view that as an investment in our future economy.

Just a few thoughts...

1.) We definitely agree here. Just compare how California invests in higher ed compared to Texas. It's crazy. 

2.) I can't speak for privates as I've only worked in public, community colleges. I've seen more and more faculty and departments start to be more persuasive about their majors and what careers there are with this pathway. I know for me being in supervisory roles, I've gone to some departments and showed them how enrollment in their discipline has declined the last 5 years. I wasn't trying to scare them but I let them know, senior admin is looking at that. I've noticed since these types of talks, more faculty are being proactive and explaining the career opportunities when majoring in certain disciplines that some might think do not yield a good career when in reality they can. (It also lets students know what their choices are so they can adjust their academic plans before it's too late.)

3.) Agree, and the answer to that is too long to type here. Community colleges have done a great job in keeping their costs low despite not having the type of surplus $$$ a place like UT has. This same reason is why I've tried to tell students to forget about going to UT and instead try to go to SHSU, SFA, UNT, PVAMU, Texas Southern, Texas State etc. Same education and cheaper. 

4.) The amount of one-on-one convos I had to have with students to let them know that no, you're not going to become an influencer or a rapper and you need to take this class seriously was mind-bottling. Thankfully, most (not all) of them woke up and chose to take their education seriously.

[Pancho 44475]

10 hours ago, NWBuck said:

I can't speak for Texas, but I will say that the "administrative bloat" that many talk about is also a factor (and I'm speaking as an administrator). However, that 'bloat', in many situations, comes in response to new expectations and regulations from the state/federal level- all good programs/policies/practices, but additional responsibilities with the same or reduced funding leads to the budget issues highlighted here.

Correct. New administrators are because of increased enrollments, new regulations, or new policies. They aren't just thought of out of thin air to give someone a high paying job. 

Not only that, these "high paying" administration roles in higher ed (2 year and 4 year) are starting to see major issues in regards to filling these roles and then keeping folks in those roles. Without these roles, you're putting a heavier workload on someone else, which means faster burnout regardless of their increased pay. 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Pancho said:

3.) Agree, and the answer to that is too long to type here. Community colleges have done a great job in keeping their costs low despite not having the type of surplus $$$ a place like UT has. This same reason is why I've tried to tell students to forget about going to UT and instead try to go to SHSU, SFA, UNT, PVAMU, Texas Southern, Texas State etc. Same education and cheaper. 

This seems like bad idea jeans, unless it's a student that better fits those universities. Like it or not, UT-Austin is a brand-name. I'll agree that you're going to learn the same stuff anywhere, but you're also paying for the brand. And that brand will help in the starting salary and position, which then will have benefits through the rest of the career.

Now, 10 years out of school I think it largely doesn't matter as by that point, it's largely about what you've done in your career. But starting out?

[High Plains Drifter 10976]

On 8/19/2023 at 5:16 PM, henrygandorf said:

they're probably calling and thanking their local republican congressman.

 

Over/under on how long cruz, greene, or some other toad starts bragging about how much money people in their states/districts saved?

 

[High Plains Drifter 10976]

22 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

Trump Tax Cuts = $1.5 Trillion 

Biden Student Loan Forgiveness = $39 Billion

Guess which one the dumb people are mad about

 

 

 

Also, guess which one will have a net benefit to the economy.

 

 

[Goofyboy 3204]

This seems like bad idea jeans, unless it's a student that better fits those universities. Like it or not, UT-Austin is a brand-name. I'll agree that you're going to learn the same stuff anywhere, but you're also paying for the brand. And that brand will help in the starting salary and position, which then will have benefits through the rest of the career.
Now, 10 years out of school I think it largely doesn't matter as by that point, it's largely about what you've done in your career. But starting out?

UT is a brand name for some degrees. Others - it does not really matter.

[Pancho 44475]

2 hours ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

This seems like bad idea jeans, unless it's a student that better fits those universities. Like it or not, UT-Austin is a brand-name. I'll agree that you're going to learn the same stuff anywhere, but you're also paying for the brand. And that brand will help in the starting salary and position, which then will have benefits through the rest of the career.

Now, 10 years out of school I think it largely doesn't matter as by that point, it's largely about what you've done in your career. But starting out?

Context. 

I cannot tell a student the "UT brand" will help in their starting salary or gaining access to a job. No advisor (or UT recruiter) can do that rather they can only say our graduates go on to work for x company. What you're suggesting about the UT brand is purely anecdotal and, I would presume, based on major (Business, for example, which is where a student who came to my community college from LSU wanted to transfer to. He never took notes but showed up in class every day. He was very bright and made an easy A in my class, so yes, I convinced him to go to UT instead of going back to LSU or to Univ of Mississippi as UT would be better for him in the long run.)

Also, something I have access to is a student's academic profile. So yes, I can glance at that and tell a student they should probably look at another school over UT. I've told plenty of students "no, I'm not writing a letter of rec for you for UT" because of that.

 

Now, getting this thread back on track...

[jimmyjazz 45557]

Unless you're factoring in merit scholarships, which are obviously harder to come by at UT-Austin, the total cost of attendance at other state schools doesn't seem to be all that different.

[gmr548 16512]

18 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Finally, I think the biggest driver of cost of education has simply been underfunding by state governments, especially in Texas.

Texas withdrew support from state universities and then camouflaged that fact by deregulating tuition, which universities had been clamoring for, anyway.

Add into that the availability of student loans so demand remains inelastic, and off we go.

 

17 hours ago, NWBuck said:

I can't speak for Texas, but I will say that the "administrative bloat" that many talk about is also a factor (and I'm speaking as an administrator). However, that 'bloat', in many situations, comes in response to new expectations and regulations from the state/federal level- all good programs/policies/practices, but additional responsibilities with the same or reduced funding leads to the budget issues highlighted here.

538 had a great piece a few years back showing that, in a supermajority of states that had tuition increases (there were a few small resource-rich states that have been able to keep it flat or cut it) from 2000 to like 2015, state funding cuts accounted for over 50% of the tuition increase at public universities, and for a lot of those it was a really high number - 80, 90, even over 100% (i.e. some universities were able to absorb some cuts elsewhere and didn't raise tuition in a dollar for dollar match to account for cuts).

18 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I think people make a couple of mistakes on college financing.  And I'm really talking parents here, as few kids can really grok this stuff at 18.  And a goodly number of parents probably abdicate this entirely.

First, they think "it's the best, most unimpeachable investment anyone can make."  That's not totally wrong, but it still needs to be placed in some sort of cost/benefit context, as mentioned above:  what's my likely income, what are my likely payments, how crippling is this going to be?.

Second, people just aren't good at finance and can probably really only do the macro analysis:  it will probably be less than my mortgage in terms of principal, and the rates are low compared to car notes and mortgagees, and, you get a long time to pay them back, like a mortgage, so it ought to be doable.

And the market has been such that the value of a college education has been declining.  So, unlike a mortgage, it's not an investment in a growth asset.  Its greatest value is intangible.

Median college grad earnings are way above high school graduates and that gap is as big as ever. There are definitely paths to financial success that don't include college, but in aggregate the bold isn't true unless you think the intangible value of a college education is worth nearly $1MM over your working years.

[gmr548 16512]

On 8/21/2023 at 3:41 PM, fattyflattie said:

Don't. Enter. Debt. You. Can't. Handle.  

The irony of a Republican saying this is astounding.

[Post Oak 20184]

9 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

The irony of a Republican saying this is astounding.

You can't expect these clods to understand irony

 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33843]

if this got talked about, I didn't see it. I'm curious what the talking points tomorrow morning will be from our resident waterheads

 

[F250 28682]

1 hour ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

if this got talked about, I didn't see it. I'm curious what the talking points tomorrow morning will be from our resident waterheads

 

I've paid for college two times!!!

[Biff Tannen 45494]

2 hours ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

if this got talked about, I didn't see it. I'm curious what the talking points tomorrow morning will be from our resident waterheads

 

Every R dumb fuck @fattyflattie @Incredulity

[fattyflattie 4636]

14 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Every R dumb fuck @fattyflattie @Incredulity

Still better than

Help me!  I can’t afford college!!1! And houses are unaffordable hrrr drrr  A uneducated Betamax salesman in the 70’s could afford a ski chateau and it’s just not fair!!!!!  

[NameAlreadyInUse 5106]

Still better than
Help me!  I can’t afford college!!1! And houses are unaffordable hrrr drrr  A uneducated Betamax salesman in the 70’s could afford a ski chateau and it’s just not fair!!!!!  

So what’s your problem with that argument? The fact that it’s true obviously isn’t your problem because it is true. What is it?

[Incredulity 11564]

52 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Every R dumb fuck @fattyflattie @Incredulity

What are you babbling about?

Fucking lemming.

[Biff Tannen 45494]

6 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

What are you babbling about?

Fucking lemming.

So you’re all good with Biden’s new proposal then. I’ll mark that down. You’re so precious. 

[Biff Tannen 45494]

11 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

What are you babbling about?

Fucking lemming.

Oh wait. Here, I found this for you. 
 

[956 Worldwide 34440]

RNC oppo research has revealed Joe Biden giving a working doggo pets.

 

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

Empathy for other living things confounds Republicans

[DigglerontheHoof 21061]

9 hours ago, Incredulity said:

What are you babbling about?

Fucking lemming.

Holy lack of self awareness, Batman!

[Incredulity 11564]

10 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

So you’re all good with Biden’s new proposal then. I’ll mark that down. You’re so precious. 

I haven’t read the details of this so have no comment.

I fully agree with those above who have commented that none of these do anything to address the root cause of the issue.  Higher education has become completely unaffordable.(see briskets graph above)

We can argue how to fix the issue.  Making it, “free” isn’t the solution.

[Goofyboy 3204]

Why not? What’s wrong with free higher education - college or trade school?

[Voldemort86 2259]

Are we still likely to avoid that recession the so called experts have been calling for the last 2 years?

[Incredulity 11564]

7 minutes ago, Goofyboy said:

Why not? What’s wrong with free higher education - college or trade school?

1.) See public high school education in America.  
 

2.) See every other bottomless money pit government program that makes up for mediocre results by being extremely bureaucratic.

[Goofyboy 3204]

1.) See public high school education in America.  
 
2.) See every other bottomless money pit government program that makes up for mediocre results by being extremely bureaucratic.

The same public school education that’s had money removed from it and now is shitty? Brilliant.

Also, there will still be private universities, just like there are now.

[Incredulity 11564]

7 minutes ago, Goofyboy said:

The same public school education that’s had money removed from it and now is shitty? Brilliant.

See per student spending 

[Goofyboy 3204]

See per student spending 

Let me guess, it’s gone up… along with the costs of everything else. We aren’t going to agree, so I’m done.

[Incredulity 11564]

2 minutes ago, Goofyboy said:

Let me guess, it’s gone up… along with the costs of everything else. We aren’t going to agree, so I’m done.

It’s gone up far in excess of inflation 

[Js1 85109]

22 minutes ago, Goofyboy said:

The same public school education that’s had money removed from it and now is shitty? Brilliant.

That’s how the GOP breaks things and then claims they don’t work 

[linux 1659]

6 minutes ago, Js1 said:

That’s how the GOP breaks things and then claims they don’t work 

Or says that they have to budget pensions in advance like USPS, Republicans are not honest, never were.

[Incredulity 11564]

Wrong thread 

Edited August 23, 2023 by Incredulity

['stache 21772]

Lol, righties staning for the system that has resulted in healthcare, education, and housing skyrocketing, while wages stagnate, and profits have exploded being paid to a select few, while calling others lemmings. It should hurt to be that stupid (and punishable for the dishonest ones who have convinced the idiots that everything is fine). 

[Incredulity 11564]

6 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Lol, righties staning for the system that has resulted in healthcare, education, and housing skyrocketing, while wages stagnate, and profits have exploded being paid to a select few, while calling others lemmings. It should hurt to be that stupid (and punishable for the dishonest ones who have convinced the idiots that everything is fine). 

You don’t read so well.

See the part where I said higher education is completely unaffordable.

[SydneyCarton 47876]

Make America Great Again, AMIRITE Boys? What years exactly is it the Boomers all thought were "great" to return to? Oh yeah. 
https://www.wolterskluwer.com/en/expert-insights/whole-ball-of-tax-historical-income-tax-rates
https://bradfordtaxinstitute.com/free_resources/federal-income-tax-rates.aspx

 

I'm not a math guy but it seems like those years that were "Great" were taxed way fucking higher. We should do that again. 

 

 

 

[Incredulity 11564]

2 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

I'm not a math guy but it seems like those years that were "Great" were taxed way fucking higher. We should do that again. 

for the trillionth time.  Marginal rates are not effective rates.  it doesn't make a difference what the marginal rate is.

[SydneyCarton 47876]

1 minute ago, Incredulity said:

for the trillionth time.  Marginal rates are not effective rates.  it doesn't make a difference what the marginal rate is.

No shit. That chart says we used to tax the everloving more out of the extremely wealthy. Because those in the top brackets are paying extremely high percentages of their income past that threshold. So yeah, we should do that again. 

[Incredulity 11564]

1 minute ago, SydneyCarton said:

No shit. That chart says we used to tax the everloving more out of the extremely wealthy. Because those in the top brackets are paying extremely high percentages of their income past that threshold. So yeah, we should do that again. 

[jimmyjazz 45557]

2 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

it doesn't make a difference what the marginal rate is.

Are you serious?  To hear you and your compadres talk, cutting the top marginal rate was a huge triumph and that Democrats were evil for not doing it.

3 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Marginal rates are not effective rates. 

Nobody with a functioning breain stem fucking thinks marginal rate brackets are effective rates. 

[Incredulity 11564]

Just now, jimmyjazz said:

Nobody with a functioning breain stem fucking thinks marginal rate brackets are effective rates. 

noted.   

 

incredibly funny on a meta level.

[wildcat09 29243]

6 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

for the trillionth time.  Marginal rates are not effective rates.  it doesn't make a difference what the marginal rate is.

Then you should have no problem with increasing marginal rates on high income levels and on capital gains.

[jimmyjazz 45557]

2 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

incredibly funny on a meta level.

Only if you're an idiot.

[Incredulity 11564]

Just now, jimmyjazz said:

Only if you're an idiot. idoit.

Please use the approved nomenclature.