Joe Biden 2023: The Dark Brandon Rises

[Goofyboy 3,202]

Then you should have no problem with increasing marginal rates on high income levels and on capital gains.

I have an issue with raising the capital gains rate across the board. A lot of retirement is wrapped up in investments. Maybe set higher rates for high income from the sale of investments?

[Incredulity 11,564]

1 minute ago, Goofyboy said:

Maybe set higher rates for high income from the sale of investments?

[wildcat09 29,237]

Just now, Goofyboy said:

I have an issue with raising the capital gains rate across the board. A lot of retirement is wrapped up in investments. Maybe set higher rates for high income from the sale of investments?

Sure, whatever.  The point wasn't that there's one better alternative, the point was that his line that "it doesn't make a difference what the marginal rate is" is absurd.

[Goofyboy 3,202]

Sure, whatever.  The point wasn't that there's one better alternative, the point was that his line that "it doesn't make a difference what the marginal rate is" is absurd.

Agree.

[Incredulity 11,564]

2 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Sure, whatever.  The point wasn't that there's one better alternative, the point was that his line that "it doesn't make a difference what the marginal rate is" is absurd.

ignoring the fact that, "income on the sale of an investment" IS a capital gain.

 

I should have more accurately said the top marginal rate hasn't made huge difference in the top effective rate.

[YGIFS 19,449]

Playing with capital gains rates based on income is tricky.  Because for retirees with no active W2/1099 AGI, the sale of the non-qualified investment triggers "income" in a sense so they move "up income brackets" just by triggering the sale.  If that makes sense.

We did a class project on retirees with no active income, just withdrawals from qualified/non-qualified, SS, and deferred comp/defined contribution.  What is fair/unfair to use as means testing because some of those "income streams" are coming out taxable as OI, some as CG, some tax free.  It's obviously possible but it gets very chaotic and divisive very quickly.  What about doing it based on age instead?  If you're over a certain age, then your capital gains on non-qualifieds is back down to the lower rate no matter what else you're pulling from.  The pushback was you can't base tax policy on age, only money.  Bullshit.  We do it all the time, tens of millions of times per day in this country.  IRD's and RMD's.  59 1/2 and 70 1/2.  Use that as a model.  

Anyway, back to taht cool rescue dog in Maui.

[Willfully Horn 7,913]

Resetting the baseline cost when investments are inherited is a massive loss of tax dollars.

AND

Spending more per student generally leads to better schools and education.

[YGIFS 19,449]

For many years, the step-up in basis benefit was offset by the progressive rates on the death tax/gift tax.  I have not looked at that in many years, and I doubt anyone in Congress has either to see if that's still true.  The step-up in basis served a number of purposes, not to just to protect heirs of wealthy people but a leftover tool for a generation who died off having worked at one company for 40 years and in addition to a pension, had a couple hundred grand in company stock (that in most cases they were nearly forced to buy), all of which still put them well below the first tranche of death tax wealth brackets.

[Willfully Horn 7,913]

10 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

For many years, the step-up in basis benefit was offset by the progressive rates on the death tax/gift tax.  I have not looked at that in many years, and I doubt anyone in Congress has either to see if that's still true.  The step-up in basis served a number of purposes, not to just to protect heirs of wealthy people but a leftover tool for a generation who died off having worked at one company for 40 years and in addition to a pension, had a couple hundred grand in company stock (that in most cases they were nearly forced to buy), all of which still put them well below the first tranche of death tax wealth brackets.

“In 2023, the federal estate tax ranges from rates of 18% to 40% and generally only applies to assets over $12.92 million.”

https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/taxes/estate-tax

 

There are around 1.5 million decamillionaires, and almost 22 million millionaires in this country.

 

Edited August 23, 2023 by Willfully Horn
Puncted

[Bama Chick 28,596]

I hope Biden’s team makes a tshirt for this lol

[jimmyjazz 45,554]

She actually thinks that's funny.

[G650 14,104]

I'd 100% buy that shirt

[DigglerontheHoof 21,060]

Sounds like a damned fine platform to me. 

[YGIFS 19,449]

I'm surprised we're all not actively engaged in at lease two of those each right now, actually.  

[Pescado_Rojo 19,331]

3 hours ago, YGIFS said:

I'm surprised we're all not actively engaged in at lease two of those each right now, actually.  

[wildcat09 29,237]

Not even House Republicans think Joe Biden did anything wrong:

Quote

President Biden has maintained no wrongdoing on his part as it relates to his son, Hunter, and the White House has repeatedly maintained the president was never in business with his son. Republican allegations of political interference in the Hunter Biden probe have been met with adamant denials from Attorney General Merrick Garland and other top Justice Department officials.

GOP Colorado Rep. Ken Buck, a member of the hardline Freedom Caucus who sits on the House Judiciary Committee, has previously accused McCarthy of engaging in “impeachment theater.”

And one GOP lawmaker, granted anonymity to speak more freely, offered an even blunter assessment: “There’s no evidence that Joe Biden got money, or that Joe Biden, you know, agreed to do something so that Hunter could get money. There’s just no evidence of that. And they can’t impeach without that evidence. And I don’t I don’t think the evidence exists.”

 

[Js1 85,104]

42 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Not even House Republicans think Joe Biden did anything wrong:

 

Please please please let it fail on the floor. That would absolutely be humiliating for McCarthy, deflate GOP voters and and rally Dems around Biden 

[brown water 3,761]

On 8/23/2023 at 11:11 AM, Goofyboy said:

I have an issue with raising the capital gains rate across the board. A lot of retirement is wrapped up in investments. Maybe set higher rates for high income from the sale of investments?

Wrong. Dead wrong. An issue with capital gains is there are 2 rates. Short term = ordinary income rates (max ~40%). Long term = lower preferential rate (max ~20%).  Sell 100k stock bought last year for 200k.  Pay 20k on the 100k long term gain.  Sell 100k stock bought 40 years ago for 200k.  Pay 20k on the 100k long term gain. You can’t measure cap gains based solely on the gain and ignore the holding period and ignore the inflation impact over the term.  The 100k gains on those 2 scenarios aren’t remotely similar and shouldn’t be taxed similarly either.  

[brown water 3,761]

On 8/23/2023 at 9:09 AM, Goofyboy said:

Why not? What’s wrong with free higher education - college or trade school?

@Goofyboy  this isn’t directed at you. But this discussion is frustratingly framed a free higher education.

Higher education is no more free than national defense. There is a cost to provide and there is a funding for that cost. The question is who funds that cost?

In the case of national defense, the assumption is we all benefit and we all fund that cost ratably via our tax dollar. No one complains about free national defense even though no one stokes a check specifically for it.

In the case of education, the alignment of benefit and funding is more opaque. I believe we collectively benefit from an educated population and should use the tax dollar to fund education similarly to defense.  Others believe the only person that benefits from an education is the educated individual and they should solely fund that expense on their own behalf. Still others, looking at you red hats, argue that we should preserve menial jobs (self check out at grocery stores) so that our populace needn’t pursue education in favor of relegating themselves to replaceable tasks.  

I’m not sure if education should be “free” or not. I am sure that stupidity will be expensive AF. 

Edited August 29, 2023 by brown water

[StassneyHorn 6,538]

Noted librool rag

Wages have grown faster for blue-collar workers than for their white-collar counterparts over the last three years, reversing a decades-long trend, reports The Wall Street Journal. A big reason for the swap: the pandemic. The demand for blue-collar workers skyrocketed once Americans started socializing outside the home again. The pandemic also dampened immigration, shrinking the pool of people who previously filled many blue-collar jobs. In July, hourly earnings in blue-collar jobs surpassed inflation for the first time in two years, ensuring those workers would keep spending — and helping stave off a recession

https://www.wsj.com/video/series/wsj-explains/blue-collar-vs-white-collar-pay-why-a-decadeslong-trend-is-flipping/8348F0FB-906A-44D1-8897-3CE3A885B206

5:52 minute video. Worth your time. No cartoony Youtube bullshit that workswithseed would post

Lets shake the dust off some political consultants and see how the word "richcession" appeals to blue collar voters. I'll start using it if I get permission.

Edited August 29, 2023 by StassneyHorn

[atomheartbevo 89,416]

11 hours ago, Js1 said:

Please please please let it fail on the floor. That would absolutely be humiliating for McCarthy, deflate GOP voters and and rally Dems around Biden 

It very well could.  There's plenty of Republicans in the House who are tired of McCarthy trying to take the House GOP into the Qanon/MTG/Matt Gaetz/Boebert rabbit hole.

They are especially worried that group will shut the government down on October 1st, because several members of that group are hoping to do just that.  Shutting it down after October 1st as we head into an election year, and with that group of Republicans bragging that they are going to shut things down and making sure that people know it's them, yeah, fuck around and find out.

[EuroHorn 3,204]

8 hours ago, StassneyHorn said:

Noted librool rag

Wages have grown faster for blue-collar workers than for their white-collar counterparts over the last three years, reversing a decades-long trend, reports The Wall Street Journal. A big reason for the swap: the pandemic. The demand for blue-collar workers skyrocketed once Americans started socializing outside the home again. The pandemic also dampened immigration, shrinking the pool of people who previously filled many blue-collar jobs. In July, hourly earnings in blue-collar jobs surpassed inflation for the first time in two years, ensuring those workers would keep spending — and helping stave off a recession

https://www.wsj.com/video/series/wsj-explains/blue-collar-vs-white-collar-pay-why-a-decadeslong-trend-is-flipping/8348F0FB-906A-44D1-8897-3CE3A885B206

5:52 minute video. Worth your time. No cartoony Youtube bullshit that workswithseed would post

Lets shake the dust off some political consultants and see how the word "richcession" appeals to blue collar voters. I'll start using it if I get permission.

So more pandemic and less immigration?

[Bookman 4,610]

11 hours ago, brown water said:

Wrong. Dead wrong. An issue with capital gains is there are 2 rates. Short term = ordinary income rates (max ~40%). Long term = lower preferential rate (max ~20%).  Sell 100k stock bought last year for 200k.  Pay 20k on the 100k long term gain.  Sell 100k stock bought 40 years ago for 200k.  Pay 20k on the 100k long term gain. You can’t measure cap gains based solely on the gain and ignore the holding period and ignore the inflation impact over the term.  The 100k gains on those 2 scenarios aren’t remotely similar and shouldn’t be taxed similarly either.  

Wait, you mean a capital gain is from the sale of a capital asset?

[elfenix 34,171]

Noted librool rag

Wages have grown faster for blue-collar workers than for their white-collar counterparts over the last three years, reversing a decades-long trend, reports The Wall Street Journal. A big reason for the swap: the pandemic. The demand for blue-collar workers skyrocketed once Americans started socializing outside the home again. The pandemic also dampened immigration, shrinking the pool of people who previously filled many blue-collar jobs. In July, hourly earnings in blue-collar jobs surpassed inflation for the first time in two years, ensuring those workers would keep spending — and helping stave off a recession

https://www.wsj.com/video/series/wsj-explains/blue-collar-vs-white-collar-pay-why-a-decadeslong-trend-is-flipping/8348F0FB-906A-44D1-8897-3CE3A885B206

5:52 minute video. Worth your time. No cartoony Youtube bullshit that workswithseed would post

Lets shake the dust off some political consultants and see how the word "richcession" appeals to blue collar voters. I'll start using it if I get permission.

The people who want to close the border so that American wages can stop being diluted also whine about $15/hr for fast food workers and price increases when we turned everyone away under title 42

[Dahobbs 17,444]

12 hours ago, brown water said:

Wrong. Dead wrong. An issue with capital gains is there are 2 rates. Short term = ordinary income rates (max ~40%). Long term = lower preferential rate (max ~20%).  Sell 100k stock bought last year for 200k.  Pay 20k on the 100k long term gain.  Sell 100k stock bought 40 years ago for 200k.  Pay 20k on the 100k long term gain. You can’t measure cap gains based solely on the gain and ignore the holding period and ignore the inflation impact over the term.  The 100k gains on those 2 scenarios aren’t remotely similar and shouldn’t be taxed similarly either.  

I'm confused. What about their post do you believe is "dead wrong?" And how does your post relates to it?  Here are the parts to the post:

• "I have an issue with raising the capital gains rate across the board."
• "A lot of retirement is wrapped up in investments."
• "Maybe set higher rates for high income from the sale of investments?"

The first one is an opinion, one you seem to agree with. I don't see how that can be wrong. 

The second is an asserted fact. Nothing in your post addresses the makeup of retirement assets. And frankly I don't see how you could disagree with that statement as a factual matter. 

The final part is phrased as a question, not an assertion of fact. Restructuring capital gains taxes so that they are higher for higher incomes is certainly possible. And nothing about the difference between short term and long term rates prevents that. For short term rates, it essentially already happens. So the proposal would just be to make a similar change to long term rates.  Again, nothing in your post indicates anything about this is "dead wrong," and since it is a question I don't see how it could be.

Finally, you say that nothing about short term and long term holdings is similar or should be taxed the same as if that is something their post suggested. But I don't see the post directly addressing or challenging that premise. Rates for the sale of long term holdings can be raised for high incomes while still being less than similar sales of short term holdings. 

Edited August 29, 2023 by Dahobbs

[atomheartbevo 89,416]

1 hour ago, elfenix said:

The people who want to close the border so that American wages can stop being diluted also whine about $15/hr for fast food workers and price increases when we turned everyone away under title 42

And they also see no problem paying their Hispanic lawn or pool guy cash, and they don't ask for ID or receipts.

[brown water 3,761]

Yeah. Came in a bit hot yesterday evening. Sorry…

Responding to point 3 - which I read to mean have higher capital gain tax rates on larger gains. My point is that large gains are often a function of longer holding periods (significantly longer than the 1 year break point for the lower gain tax rate) and because of inflation over those periods the “real” gain is smaller. Taxing big gains occurring over extended periods at higher rates could economically result in a loss to the seller 

Edited August 29, 2023 by brown water

[Dahobbs 17,444]

9 minutes ago, brown water said:

Yeah. Came in a bit hot yesterday evening. Sorry…

Responding to point 3 - which I read to mean have higher capital gain tax rates on larger gains. My point is that large gains are often a function of longer (significantly longer than the 1 year break point for the lower gain tax rate) and because of inflation over those periods the “real” gain is smaller. Taxing big gains occurring over extended periods at higher rates could economically result in a loss to the seller 

It could, depending on the rate of inflation and rate of gain over that time period. That certainly should be a consideration when making taxation decisions. But practically speaking, I'm not convinced it is a huge threat. Assume a 10-year investment with period of extended high inflation of 4%. Also assume modest gains during that period of 8% per year. And now apply a 40% tax on the entire gain. You're still looking at post-tax value that beats inflation.  You'd have to be talking very high effective tax rates or very low long-term gains in order to be looking at a negative situation. It certainly seems like there is a lot of room there to craft a policy that increases rates on long term gains without punishing long-term savings. 

[wildcat09 29,237]

If you fuckers are gonna keep doing math in here I'm going to start reporting posts.

[StassneyHorn 6,538]

2 hours ago, EuroHorn said:

So more pandemic and less immigration?

Do less

[YGIFS 19,449]

Fewer migration?  

[StassneyHorn 6,538]

was telling him to do less posting, unless this is a cheeky less vs fewer thing
 

Edited August 29, 2023 by StassneyHorn

[StassneyHorn 6,538]

Joe Biden has announced the first 10 drugs used by Medicare recipients that will be negotiated down. Saving billions for grandmas and senile old grandpas like himself. This criminal mastermind must be stopped.

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/us-name-first-10-drugs-medicare-price-negotiation-2023-08-29/

 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33,841]

1 hour ago, StassneyHorn said:

Joe Biden has announced the first 10 drugs used by Medicare recipients that will be negotiated down. Saving billions for grandmas and senile old grandpas like himself. This criminal mastermind must be stopped.

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/us-name-first-10-drugs-medicare-price-negotiation-2023-08-29/

 

this part should appeal to middle America:

Quote

Wells Fargo analyst Mohit Bansal said the savings made from negotiations on Jardiance, Januvia, Farxiga and Insulin Aspart, which cost the agency about $16.5 billion, could potentially free up Medicare's budget and make it easier to cover diabetes or obesity drugs.

 

[YGIFS 19,449]

That's gonna be a tough call for a lot of MAGA nation.  "Vilify the socialist evils of Joe Biden.  OR, OR, OR...continue getting fatter and healthier."  

I'm so soured on politics, I actually got excited when I saw the list because now that I may need a blood thinner-figured it would help with costs.  Then I realized I'm not on Medicare.  But maybe it'll still be there now when I get to be that age.  

[softlynow 1,783]

21 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

That's gonna be a tough call for a lot of MAGA nation.  "Vilify the socialist evils of Joe Biden.  OR, OR, OR...continue getting fatter and healthier."  

I'm so soured on politics, I actually got excited when I saw the list because now that I may need a blood thinner-figured it would help with costs.  Then I realized I'm not on Medicare.  But maybe it'll still be there now when I get to be that age.  

You just realized you’re not on Medicare?

[YGIFS 19,449]

Well yeah, because of the lack of bloodflow to my brain.  Duh!  I've also recently learned that my eligibility in Germany's SHI program may be running out as well.  Fucking Soclalists!  

[Stilicho 1,397]

8 hours ago, YGIFS said:

That's gonna be a tough call for a lot of MAGA nation.  "Vilify the socialist evils of Joe Biden.  OR, OR, OR...continue getting fatter and healthier."  

The folks that misspell poster board slogans about keeping government out of government benefits?

[YGIFS 19,449]

Look man, I had a clever sign to bring to the protest...but it got 'Stollen' 

[Covri 6,231]

53 minutes ago, Stilicho said:

The folks that misspell poster board slogans about keeping government out of government benefits?

And the ones who can’t figure out avatars or quote functions!

[High Plains Drifter 10,974]

9 hours ago, YGIFS said:

That's gonna be a tough call for a lot of MAGA nation.  "Vilify the socialist evils of Joe Biden.  OR, OR, OR...continue getting fatter and healthier."  

I'm so soured on politics, I actually got excited when I saw the list because now that I may need a blood thinner-figured it would help with costs.  Then I realized I'm not on Medicare.  But maybe it'll still be there now when I get to be that age.  

 

Heard some talking voice on NPR claiming the savings if you are on medicare will somehow trickle down to the non-medicare masses, at least a little.

 

[StassneyHorn 6,538]

Joey Sunglasses is a hero to the working man

DEPARTMENT OF LABOR ANNOUNCES PROPOSAL TO RESTORE, EXTEND OVERTIME PROTECTIONS FOR 3.6 MILLION LOW-PAID SALARIED WORKERS

https://www.dol.gov/newsroom/releases/whd/whd20230830

 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33,841]

16 minutes ago, StassneyHorn said:

Joey Sunglasses is a hero to the working man

DEPARTMENT OF LABOR ANNOUNCES PROPOSAL TO RESTORE, EXTEND OVERTIME PROTECTIONS FOR 3.6 MILLION LOW-PAID SALARIED WORKERS

https://www.dol.gov/newsroom/releases/whd/whd20230830

 

you know, it's really nice waking up and not having the fucking president be the first person you think of in the morning. "Is today the day we all die?" should not be a recurring thought before coffee every morning. 

[StassneyHorn 6,538]

GDP Now from the Atlanta Fed is showing an estimated 5.6%

https://www.atlantafed.org/cqer/research/gdpnow

[StassneyHorn 6,538]

Goddamn it I missed Jobsgiving eve

[safe sex 11,678]

[TwiceHorn 31,269]

On 8/29/2023 at 8:48 PM, High Plains Drifter said:

 

Heard some talking voice on NPR claiming the savings if you are on medicare will somehow trickle down to the non-medicare masses, at least a little.

 

I believe a lot of insurers use medicare rates as kind of a baseline for what they'll pay for drugs and services.  They may not be able to get medicare rates, but it's like 1.5x or some multiplier.

[Js1 85,104]

17 hours ago, StassneyHorn said:

GDP Now from the Atlanta Fed is showing an estimated 5.6%

https://www.atlantafed.org/cqer/research/gdpnow

But but the economy is bad and we are in a recession!

There was a poll that showed like 75% of Republicans say their financial situation is good or excellent but only like 25% or so think the economy is doing well 

[Bookman 4,610]

I think Joe Biden should take his coffee mug idea and go one step further with a "Dark Brandon Coffee" brand. Put a big U.S. Flag on it. The slogan should be "Get Yourself a Cup of Joe." Add a label that says "100% No Malarkey."

I'd buy that shit.

[StassneyHorn 6,538]

I just came back from the internet and the amount of people saying this is the most perfect jobs report ever is very big.

Fed-Friendly Jobs Scenario Boosts Odds US Will Avert Recession

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/live-blog/2023-09-01/us-employment-report-for-august

‘Music to the Fed’s ears’ — analysts react to jobs report
 

https://www.marketwatch.com/amp/story/music-to-the-feds-ears-analysts-react-to-jobs-report-64f306f3