It's time we talked about pickup trucks

[Guest]

I'm a born-and-raised Texan. I'm a truck driver. I love my pickup. 

They have also become completely obnoxious imo over the past decade. They've ballooned in cost. They've ballooned in size. And they are more popular than ever. Yet according to this Axios article (https://www.axios.com/ford-pickup-trucks-history), it's overkill for the vast majority of people. What's going on? I feel like I've noticed an insane about of F-250 Super Duty trucks that look right off the showroom floor.

 

Full disclosure: I drive a 10-year old "midside" truck (compared with modern trucks, it's tiny) with small bed and four-door cab. I do occasional hauling, but it's mostly for errands. I think a lot about just getting a car, but the truck comes in so ridiculously handy when I do need to haul something. 

[Gooby 640]

I blame the popularity of "Yellowstone".

 

[Orange&White 5521]

I've never understood why so many people care about what other people do with their trucks? And this is coming from someone that will never drive a truck again.

If you own a boat, you might only need to hook it up to your truck once or twice a year. But when you need to do it, you need the truck. Same with towing a camper, a tractor, or a horse trailer or whatever else the fuck private citizens deem worthwhile in their lives that .

Even if someone never uses their truck as a truck and they just prefer to drive a truck, why does that matter to other people?

[Covri 6244]

16 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

 

You should put full size SUVs on here and see how much they've gone up in price comparatively. It's why I chose a F-150 over a Expedition/Yukon.

[Brisketexan 105043]

2 minutes ago, Orange&White said:

I've never understood why so many people care about what other people do with their trucks? And this is coming from someone that will never drive a truck again.

If you own a boat, you might only need to hook it up to your truck once or twice a year. But when you need to do it, you need the truck. Same with towing a camper, a tractor, or a horse trailer or whatever else the fuck private citizens deem worthwhile in their lives that .

Even if someone never uses their truck as a truck and they just prefer to drive a truck, why does that matter to other people?

I have a truck (a beater 99 F-150, 4x4).  I need it a half-dozen times a year: hauling, towing, and hunting and fishing trips where 4x4 is regularly necessary or at least helpful for peace of mind.  It's not a great plan to have something as a daily driver that you really only need 6-10 times a year, so I also have a generic sedan that gets great mileage as my daily driver.

That "occasionally" bar on the graph above is an important one.  You can't do those "occasional" things with a Toyota Camry.  

I will admit that for my next set of wheels, I may look for a more compromise vehicle -- I rarely tow anything MASSIVE.  I don't need to haul a huge load of landscaping stones (it's usually just furniture, dead deer, etc.).  Something that can go into 4X4, and tow and haul a modest amount, would be enough.  But for those of us who DO have those occasional uses, it's hard to think of a good option other than owning a truck (I do agree that they've gotten pointlessly larger, and especially the 250 and 350s that a lot of folks have but don't need -- a 150 will do whatever they actually need).

[Deej 76750]

That pic makes me miss my '76 Ford Supercab. 

[YGIFS 19449]

I don’t think people really give a shit.  It’s just a proxy for rednecks and environmentalists to both insult the same person.  We need shit to come together on and the F-250 getting 14mpg that will never know snow, mud, or a payload is an easy target for all.  
I’m utilitarian.  Drove an F-150 for 7-8 years into the ground.  When we were DIY’ing our new house back then, I used it every week for some project or camping.  One day, we were done with the house, and started having kids.   So I drove it to Carmax and never thought owning a pickup again. 
 

having said that, a writer friend of mine had a new GMC Hummer EV pickup for a few days.  I wasn’t allowed to drive it but I got to ride in it and play around.  Holy fucking shit.  When the price comes down on this, it’s gonna change everything we think about regarding pickups.  The power and capability of this thing were Amazing. Lots of “man, I’ll never give up my turbo diesel truck to the deer lease for some hippie battery charging bullshit” folks are in for an awakening.  This thing is insane.  It’s far beyond any jacked up tundra or Silverado or ram’s wildest dreams.  When it reaches COO if scale, I will wonder who will the last idiot to buy a consumer grade large combustion V8 pickup? Again, down the road…

[Brisketexan 105043]

2 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

I don’t think people really give a shit.  It’s just a proxy for rednecks and environmentalists to both insult the same person.  We need shit to come together on and the F-250 getting 14mpg that will never know snow, mud, or a payload is an easy target for all.  
I’m utilitarian.  Drove an F-150 for 7-8 years into the ground.  When we were DIY’ing our new house back then, I used it every week for some project or camping.  One day, we were done with the house, and started having kids.   So I drove it to Carmax and never thought owning a pickup again. 
 

having said that, a writer friend of mine had a new GMC Hummer EV pickup for a few days.  I wasn’t allowed to drive it but I got to ride in it and play around.  Holy fucking shit.  When the price comes down on this, it’s gonna change everything we think about regarding pickups.  The power and capability of this thing were Amazing. Lots of “man, I’ll never give up my turbo diesel truck to the deer lease for some hippie battery charging bullshit” folks are in for an awakening.  This thing is insane.  It’s far beyond any jacked up tundra or Silverado or ram’s wildest dreams.  When it reaches COO if scale, I will wonder who will the last idiot to buy a consumer grade large combustion V8 pickup? Again, down the road…

That's why I'm thinking I just sit on my 99 F-150 for the long haul.  Not going to invest in another "truck" until the technology gets to where I have great and affordable EV/hybrid options for one.  Still, the concern of "I go into the boonies, miles from any charging station" is a real one for me.  But I imagine that will be taken care of at some point in time as the tech gets better.

[HenryJames 66033]

Hope this turns into a Surly thread where everyone drives a giant stupid truck but has valid reasons for doing so.

[Brisketexan 105043]

1 minute ago, HenryJames said:

Hope this turns into a Surly thread where everyone drives a giant stupid truck but has valid reasons for doing so.

[Chopper 17228]

2 minutes ago, Orange&White said:

I've never understood why so many people care about what other people do with their trucks? And this is coming from someone that will never drive a truck again.

Just a couple wild ass guesses, but

maybe because they've been re-designed from a utilitarian vehicle to one that has sports car-like performance yet with a large rounded hood that greatly hinders visibility directly in front of the driver? And auto safety standards do nothing to prevent it.

maybe because the US pickup manufacturers are highly protected from competition by a 25% import tariff?

 

[jeevsie 3733]

No thread police yet pointing OP to the Truck Nuts thread? For shame, Surly.

[Orange&White 5521]

40 minutes ago, Chopper said:

Just a couple wild ass guesses, but

maybe because they've been re-designed from a utilitarian vehicle to one that has sports car-like performance yet with a large rounded hood that greatly hinders visibility directly in front of the driver? And auto safety standards do nothing to prevent it.

maybe because the US pickup manufacturers are highly protected from competition by a 25% import tariff?

 

Point #1 - Great, but SUV's are not given the same amount of attention and they have grown the same way, if not even moreso. There are hundreds of thousands of soccer moms out driving Excursions and suburbans that could be fine in a minivan. Yet we don't have articles and threads discussing them.

Point #2 - You mentioning it is the first time I have ever even heard of this being a complaint/issue with people driving trucks in America..

[CleverNickname 1308]

Have a a pretty basic Canyon (SLE, v6, tow package). Would totally get a Maverick or whatever future GM/Chevy or Toyota model in thay nich, provided that (a) one was actually available, (b) I'm reasonably convinced that an Escape platform based trucj has 80% of the long term reliability of a ladder frame pickup with an excessively heavy duty transmission & engine. In my experience non-truck unibody SUVs just don't last like a real truck.

[bolverk 29645]

My biggest complaint about newer trucks and SUVs is that their headlights are too fucking bright nowadays and, when pointed directly into the cabin of my lower-to-the-ground vehicle, are absolutely blinding. Shit is painful and dangerous.

[DanRydell 799]

1 hour ago, Orange&White said:

I've never understood why so many people care about what other people do with their trucks? And this is coming from someone that will never drive a truck again.

If you own a boat, you might only need to hook it up to your truck once or twice a year. But when you need to do it, you need the truck. Same with towing a camper, a tractor, or a horse trailer or whatever else the fuck private citizens deem worthwhile in their lives that .

Even if someone never uses their truck as a truck and they just prefer to drive a truck, why does that matter to other people?

Large trucks and SUVs use more fuel, can make parking lot a pain in the ass when they can't fit inside the lines, and are significantly more dangerous to other vehicles and pedestrians.

[Chopper 17228]

14 minutes ago, Orange&White said:

Point #1 - Great, but SUV's are not given the same amount of attention and they have grown the same way, if not even moreso. There are hundreds of thousands of soccer moms out driving Excursions and suburbans that could be fine in a minivan. Yet we don't have articles and threads discussing them.

Point #2 - You mentioning it is the first time I have ever even heard of this being a complaint/issue with people driving trucks in America..

Like I said those were WAGs and I'm no expert but pickups generally have less safety options across the board, they're souped up to an extent unlike your typical SUV, and they're being built with a highly aggressive stance and height that limits visibility. That may apply to some SUVs but not all. Point 2 is important because the US manufacturers have incentive to make them mas macho to appeal to their sales demographic without fear of being undercut in size and price, as happened in the sedan market.

The front edge of the hood on a f250 is now 55" off the ground. Per Consumer Reports some trucks have front blind spots 11 feet longer than those in some sedans and 7 feet longer than in many popular SUVs.

 

[BabaYaga 15286]

Meh, I've owned nothing but trucks my whole life and beat the ever-living crap out of them, but acknowledge the vast majority are just pavement-princesses.  

Up until my latest Tundra, always drove fords and kept them for 9-10 years each.  Pay them off early, then drive them as long as possible.  Hauling deer blinds, feeders, ATV's, corn, gear, furniture, wood.  You name it.  I even managed to get an entire sliding glass door with the frame into the back of my previous truck and take to the ranch cabin and install it.  Dicey backroad drive from Abilene to Coleman.  

At our place you have to have the ground clearance of a truck or dedicated SUV, 4x4, and a robust tire.  It recently destroyed one of my stock Michelin AT2's.  Had to replace all four with an E-rated, 10-ply tire.  Sharp rocks and thorns have destroyed close to half a dozen tires over the years, and that's staying almost always on the roads.  

[hayden_horn 11362]

1 hour ago, HenryJames said:

Hope this turns into a Surly thread where everyone drives a giant stupid truck but has valid reasons for doing so.

the venn diagram with some surly bmi thread where everyone just lifts and isn't a huge fatass is probably a single circle.

[YGIFS 19449]

^

That.  There was a NTHSB (whatever it's called).  You can line up to 4-6 kids my daughter's age in front of a full-size Suburban from the bumped before a 5'6" driver can start to see them.  Add quieter engines in idle and 80% of American drivers dicking around on their phones or smart console...it's not a great mix.  I know physics don't apply to Surly drivers and their trucks 'cause 'Murica...but since I started doing crosswalk duty at my daughter's elementary school.....it blows me away how many close calls there are between large trucks/SUV and kids in the lots and crosswalks.  Nevermind the telephone distractions.  And I'm supposed to be in a "smarter" part of town but everybody's a fucking idiot and/or asshole.  Minivan drivers tend to be the most aware drivers.  I don't give a shit about your fuel consumption, that's between you and your conscious.  But there's no need to bring one kid to my elementary school in a Denali XL and then try to take a left hand turn at the crosswalk without giving fuck one.  

Anyway, back to pickups.  Imma save up for an GMC Hummer.  I knew they were gonna be cool, but wow.  All the power of any truck I've ever seen.  Sure batter charging in the boonies is a problem now, but we're just in the 2nd inning of this shit.  

[Spaulding Smails 1552]

1 hour ago, HenryJames said:

Hope this turns into a Surly thread where everyone drives a giant stupid truck but has valid reasons for doing so.

I'll be the pariah here.  For now, my everyday driver is a Ford F350.  16 mpg.  I own a construction company, so it gets more than its fair share of use.  I have driven it daily because I often can't plan ahead when I need to hook up to my gooseneck or dump trailer or grab a pallet of materials.  I'd guess there's something heavy in the bed or behind the bumper at least 3-4 times per week.  

The fuel mileage sucks.  Parking sucks.  Heck, I catch an Uber when I'm going anywhere near downtown.  

That being said, my business is changing, and I'm spending less and less time in the field and more time in the office as we've grown.  I plan on keeping this truck for a pretty good while, but will likely replace it with an F150 as my daily driver within the next year or so.  I've never not owned a truck.  I don't see that changing. 

[hayden_horn 11362]

17 minutes ago, DanRydell said:

Large trucks and SUVs use more fuel, can make parking lot a pain in the ass when they can't fit inside the lines, and are significantly more dangerous to other vehicles and pedestrians.

yeah, this is straight from the no shit department. 

you can spot a work truck. i don't think anyone begrudges any work truck or knock around truck.

most f-250s i see ariund town aren't work trucks. but they are in the fucking way, whether i can't see around them in traffic or they are filling up the parking lots. yeah, yeah, you don't paint the small spots but you sure try to fit in them fuckers.

[JMFP 1120]

1 minute ago, Spaulding Smails said:

I'll be the pariah here.  For now, my everyday driver is a Ford F350.  16 mpg.  I own a construction company, so it gets more than its fair share of use.  I have driven it daily because I often can't plan ahead when I need to hook up to my gooseneck or dump trailer or grab a pallet of materials.  I'd guess there's something heavy in the bed or behind the bumper at least 3-4 times per week.  

The fuel mileage sucks.  Parking sucks.  Heck, I catch an Uber when I'm going anywhere near downtown.  

That being said, my business is changing, and I'm spending less and less time in the field and more time in the office as we've grown.  I plan on keeping this truck for a pretty good while, but will likely replace it with an F150 as my daily driver within the next year or so.  I've never not owned a truck.  I don't see that changing. 

2015 Chevy 3500 with the gas engine... I wish I got 16 mpg 😔

[Make em eat Taco Bell 1549]

why have a pickup with a shortbed? Defeats the purpose, right?  If going with a crewcab, the back seats big enough to encompass a couple of sweaty muscled barbarian construction workers, why not just go 4 rows of seats with a 4x4 and haul ass. The roof can have a luggage rack for tools. 

[Macanudo 12974]

Just now, Spaulding Smails said:

I'll be the pariah here.  For now, my everyday driver is a Ford F350.  16 mpg.  I own a construction company, so it gets more than its fair share of use.  I have driven it daily because I often can't plan ahead when I need to hook up to my gooseneck or dump trailer or grab a pallet of materials.  I'd guess there's something heavy in the bed or behind the bumper at least 3-4 times per week.  

The fuel mileage sucks.  Parking sucks.  Heck, I catch an Uber when I'm going anywhere near downtown.  

That being said, my business is changing, and I'm spending less and less time in the field and more time in the office as we've grown.  I plan on keeping this truck for a pretty good while, but will likely replace it with an F150 as my daily driver within the next year or so.  I've never not owned a truck.  I don't see that changing. 

But you're who the F350 is designed for.   It's not really meant for the suburban warrior.    And for those who make the case for "occasional", pay attention to how many trucks you see with either no tow package or a sparkling clean, like new high gloss chrome hitch that has never been used. 

Trucks as daily drivers is definitely a Texas thing and by extension a southern one.    Go to places like ven Denver and you wont see nearly the amount of trucks on the road during rush hour.   Now compare that to Chicago or Seattle.    Those people use boats, tow trailers and other stuff you need a truck for right?   Then why are there so many fewer trucks on the road? 

[elguapo 4586]

I don't care what people choose to spend their money on to drive themselves around, but why are all trucks so damn big and tall now? I miss small trucks.

[JMFP 1120]

When I see a man that drives a sedan I think of him as a person that doesn't or can't do things for himself. When I see a man driving a truck I think of him as a person who is at least capable of some self reliance. I know its wrong to be stereotypical but that's just my perception. Like my brother in law. Dude doesn't even mow his own lawn and I seriously doubt is able to change his own oil. 

But I'm not from a big city and don't have navigate the same areas or deal with the same issues as some of you.

[Homercles 10205]

2 hours ago, Gooby said:

I blame the popularity of "Yellowstone".

 

I love how the show is one commercial for Rams, whisky, boots and how to quickly stop a horse…then during commercial breaks it’s ads for Rams, whisky, etc. 

Of course I’ve noticed quite a lot of dorks wearing black cowboy hats lately so it must be working 

[Deej 76750]

11 minutes ago, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

the back seats big enough to encompass a couple of sweaty muscled barbarian construction workers

NTTAWWT

 

[tbone_ 14106]

I have this



2022 Sierra. Doesn’t need to be near this big. Would prefer if it was half way between this and a Tacoma size-wise. But I still like it. Very comfy cruiser. And I can haul shit in the back when I need to.

[956 Worldwide 34695]

One thing not in this discussion is the fact that “light trucks (including SUVs) get different CAFE standards.  
 

If I could buy a truck the size of my 1998 Dakota or my dad’s 1996 S-10, I would. Rangers and Colorados are now the size of an F-150 from that era. And they are dangerous to pedestrians and barely can be parked without the sensors and cameras. 
 

I live overseas and we’re a one car family, so I tell myself the Honda Pilot with third row was needed, especially since we get lots of guests and take road trips where we use it. In truth— I miss my old car— a VW Passat Wagon. Better handling, easier to drive, more fun to driver, better mileage and the cargo bay easily fits wherever I could in the Pilot. More, when I use the third row. 

I have no idea why wagons died the death they did in America as they are an objectively better solution than virtually all SUVs, even if you drive them to the trailhead. Virtually anything most people carry in a truck, you could fit inside and then lock the doors so your shit isn’t stolen. 
 

For that matter, minivans are better although my parents’ Odessey back stateside is no smaller than the Pilot. The one thing that is worse about a wagon— in the U.S. it’s the feeling of SUVs and trucks looming over you. 
 

The comment above about men in sedans who can’t do anything cracks me up. Even in Texas, a sedan or wagon was the car of choice for your granddad or great granddad unless he was a farmer or rancher and those guys did a hell of a lot more than any of us do, including fix said sedan themselves. 
 

 

[LebongJames 1791]

I work in construction and drive a F150. I haul stuff around but rarely tow a trailer. I get around 18 mpg 3.5 eco boost, that is the same as a 2016 4Runner that we had. If you do a lot of stuff around the house or travel a lot I can’t blame you for having a truck. I don’t want to put things like mulch, rocks, lumber in the hatch of my wife’s BMW. When we go to Port A my truck bed is usually completely full and the cab is being used by family and dogs. We couldn’t fit everything into a X5.

[Deej 76750]

20 minutes ago, JMFP said:

When I see a man that drives a sedan I think of him as a person that doesn't or can't do things for himself.

Maybe that man isn't trying to overcompensate for other shortcomings?

[Spaulding Smails 1552]

32 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

But you're who the F350 is designed for.   It's not really meant for the suburban warrior.    And for those who make the case for "occasional", pay attention to how many trucks you see with either no tow package or a sparkling clean, like new high gloss chrome hitch that has never been used. 

Trucks as daily drivers is definitely a Texas thing and by extension a southern one.    Go to places like ven Denver and you wont see nearly the amount of trucks on the road during rush hour.   Now compare that to Chicago or Seattle.    Those people use boats, tow trailers and other stuff you need a truck for right?   Then why are there so many fewer trucks on the road? 

A few years ago, we did a neighborhood work day.  Clearing brush in common areas, etc.  I had a brush chipper behind my truck, and we needed to cut a few branches in a tight area, so I put my chainsaw in the back of another guy's truck.  He got PISSED that I was messing up his bedliner.  With a chainsaw.  He was taking pride in the fact that he'd never scratched his bedliner in his three year old F150 Platinum.  I was befuddled.   

[HenryJames 66033]

10 minutes ago, LebongJames said:

I don’t want to put things like mulch, rocks, lumber in the hatch of my wife’s BMW.

#humblebrag

[Pato del Muerto 52484]

When I bought my 17 250 in 2020, I was pulling a camper over mountain passes and back 6-8 times per year.  And to remote locations, so I wanted a fairly new one to mitigate trouble. 
 

now that I’m back in Texas, I could probably tow it with a half ton that’s set up properly.  And i only get 14.8 combined with it as my commute vehicle. 
 

but when I think of getting rid of it, I think about the state of the industry right now with inventory and don’t like the idea of the hassle, especially knowing that a few times a year I do need to tow or haul. 
 

it’s not like it’s cheap and easy to rent a HD truck for a few days, as far as I know. 

[JMFP 1120]

Just now, Deej said:

Maybe that man isn't trying to overcompensate for other shortcomings?

Maybe? I guess he probably drives just what fits his needs. I dunno. Maybe dudes that drive pretty trucks or fancy sports cars (or anything not utilitarian) all have small dicks or maybe they just enjoy them? 

[Brisketexan 105043]

Maybe? I guess he probably drives just what fits his needs. I dunno. Maybe dudes that drive pretty trucks or fancy sports cars (or anything not utilitarian) all have small dicks or maybe they just enjoy them? 

I enjoy my small dick. Wait, what?

[Sandman 3403]

I drove F150s for a few years because I'm very tall and wanted as much room as I could get. I don't fit in most sedans or smaller trucks/SUVs, mostly because of the sunroof taking up all the headroom. I have never towed anything and only used the bed 3-4 times. My 2016 F150 Lariat was the nicest, roomiest vehicle I've ever had. Perfect for roadtrips. But for my daily commute, I would struggle to get 17 MPG, even though I had the ecoboost. Parking sucked, too. I also wanted more of the safety features my wife had on her Mustang. 

I've loved hot hatches since seeing the civic hatches in the early-mid 90s but I couldn't find one that fit me. But last year I got a new VW GTI. Base model, but I have every safety feature I wanted. Plenty of legroom and, because there's no sunroof, plenty of headroom. The hatch is just fine for Costco runs or anything else we do. Getting in and out is a pain but I get almost 40 MPG, so who fucking cares? Parking is a breeze. As long as I can fit in these, I'll keep buying them.

[South Austin 52431]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

I enjoy my small dick. Wait, what?

Somebody has to.

When I moved to Texas from North Carolina in 1993, I said to myself, "Holy shit there are a lot of pickups in this state!"  Now I don't give it much thought, even with how ridiculously large some of the models have gotten.  I'm much more likely to scoff at the douche bag driving a Corvette.  

[Steel Shank 9421]

2 hours ago, HenryJames said:

Hope this turns into a Surly thread where everyone drives a giant stupid truck but has valid reasons for doing so.

Not me. Mine's not giant.

[El Tri 412]

34 minutes ago, tbone_ said:

I have this



2022 Sierra. Doesn’t need to be near this big. Would prefer if it was half way between this and a Tacoma size-wise. But I still like it. Very comfy cruiser. And I can haul shit in the back when I need to.

2021 Sierra here. I love it. It's our family car. It's been very useful when we need to haul stuff. Haven't towed anything yet

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, tbone_ said:

I have this



2022 Sierra. Doesn’t need to be near this big. Would prefer if it was half way between this and a Tacoma size-wise. But I still like it. Very comfy cruiser. And I can haul shit in the back when I need to.

Good looking truck, but damn that's a high nose on it. 

8 minutes ago, Steel Shank said:

Not me. Mine's not giant.

It's SteelShank's world... we're just living in it.

[South Austin 52431]

11 minutes ago, Steel Shank said:

Not me. Mine's not giant.

Needs japs.

[HamsterHookah 112]

43 minutes ago, tbone_ said:

I have this



2022 Sierra. Doesn’t need to be near this big. Would prefer if it was half way between this and a Tacoma size-wise. But I still like it. Very comfy cruiser. And I can haul shit in the back when I need to.

Beautiful truck. Don't let people shame you into thinking you are extravagant. 

[Pato del Muerto 52484]

13 minutes ago, Steel Shank said:

Not me. Mine's not giant.

Your wheel choice disgusts me

[956 Worldwide 34695]

15 minutes ago, Sandman said:

I drove F150s for a few years because I'm very tall and wanted as much room as I could get. I don't fit in most sedans or smaller trucks/SUVs, mostly because of the sunroof taking up all the headroom. I have never towed anything and only used the bed 3-4 times. My 2016 F150 Lariat was the nicest, roomiest vehicle I've ever had. Perfect for roadtrips. But for my daily commute, I would struggle to get 17 MPG, even though I had the ecoboost. Parking sucked, too. I also wanted more of the safety features my wife had on her Mustang. 

I've loved hot hatches since seeing the civic hatches in the early-mid 90s but I couldn't find one that fit me. But last year I got a new VW GTI. Base model, but I have every safety feature I wanted. Plenty of legroom and, because there's no sunroof, plenty of headroom. The hatch is just fine for Costco runs or anything else we do. Getting in and out is a pain but I get almost 40 MPG, so who fucking cares? Parking is a breeze. As long as I can fit in these, I'll keep buying them.

Moonroofs/sunroofs have got to be the worst value for money premium feature on a car. I had one on aforementioned Passat and really can’t remember opening it up. I don’t have one now and I have never, ever said “I wish I could open up the moonroof.”

Extra weight, extra money for a window you never look out of. 

[JMFP 1120]

40 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

One thing not in this discussion is the fact that “light trucks (including SUVs) get different CAFE standards.  
 

If I could buy a truck the size of my 1998 Dakota or my dad’s 1996 S-10, I would. Rangers and Colorados are now the size of an F-150 from that era. And they are dangerous to pedestrians and barely can be parked without the sensors and cameras. 
 

I live overseas and we’re a one car family, so I tell myself the Honda Pilot with third row was needed, especially since we get lots of guests and take road trips where we use it. In truth— I miss my old car— a VW Passat Wagon. Better handling, easier to drive, more fun to driver, better mileage and the cargo bay easily fits wherever I could in the Pilot. More, when I use the third row. 

I have no idea why wagons died the death they did in America as they are an objectively better solution than virtually all SUVs, even if you drive them to the trailhead. Virtually anything most people carry in a truck, you could fit inside and then lock the doors so your shit isn’t stolen. 
 

For that matter, minivans are better although my parents’ Odessey back stateside is no smaller than the Pilot. The one thing that is worse about a wagon— in the U.S. it’s the feeling of SUVs and trucks looming over you. 
 

The comment above about men in sedans who can’t do anything cracks me up. Even in Texas, a sedan or wagon was the car of choice for your granddad or great granddad unless he was a farmer or rancher and those guys did a hell of a lot more than any of us do, including fix said sedan themselves. 
 

 

Ford Mavericks are out now, here anyway don't know about overseas.

I'd rather have an F150 but drive the 3500 because my camper weighs ~13,000 pounds loaded up. I live in a rural area where most families have a pickup because most families either farm or have a need to haul or tow something at least occasionally. I'm sure there is a good number here too that just drive a pickup just because. But I don't deal with traffic or tight parking lots often like most here. 

Our dad's and grandads were a different generation for sure. 

[texashorne 1177]

With all the F250's and jeep wranglers in DFW you would think it's all 1 giant ranch with no pavement whatsoever. 

 

[Brisketexan 105043]

52 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The comment above about men in sedans who can’t do anything cracks me up. Even in Texas, a sedan or wagon was the car of choice for your granddad or great granddad unless he was a farmer or rancher and those guys did a hell of a lot more than any of us do, including fix said sedan themselves. 

Fantastic point.  My grandfather on my mom's side worked in the S. Texas oilpatch in the 1970s.  The guys would go do what they needed to get done for the day (grandpa checked tank levels on leases), and then hit the beer joint.  Every vehicle in the parking lot was....a big American sedan (Ford LTDs etc.).  They all had a crushed roll of TP in the rear window (you needed TP in the field, because sometimes you gotta shit, but you crushed it so it wouldn't roll around when you turned corners).  And they took them EVERYWHERE - dirt "roads" through ranches, the whole deal.  Back then, if you saw a pickup truck, it was an actual farm truck most of the time.  You saw a few in the cities, mostly for actual work/towing, not as personal daily drivers.  Not to say that there weren't personal trucks around, there just weren't that many of them.