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It’s time to talk about Nazi History

Hugo Stiglitz

By Hugo Stiglitz
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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23356

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The Nazis never saw themselves as villains. 
 
You look at the horrible atrocities they committed and you think they MUST have known they were the monsters. 
 
But they didn't. 
 
Instead, the Nazis thought they themselves were the VICTIMS. 
 
That's how the Nazi party came to be in the first place, you know, how it rose to power. 
 
The Nazis convinced Germany that it had been victimized by the rest of the world. Had somehow lost its greatness, lost its place among nations. Disrespected. Treated unfairly. 
 
Nazis thought themselves victims, persecuted by elitism. By liberalism. By intellectualism.  By foreign influence. By multiculturalism. By a loss of manly vigor. By dilution and/or contamination of racial purity. By unemployment and economic disadvantage. 
 
When they came to power, the Nazis didn't think of themselves as villains, rather they were convinced that they were heroes. They saw themselves as restoring the might of Germany, forging a new civilization that would last a thousand years. 
 
They firmly believed they were right.
 
They believed that history would vindicate their actions. All the horror would be justified when they triumphed. Because THEN people would FINALLY understand. 
 
They believed that when the world looked upon the mighty works of Nazi engineering, the miracles of Nazi science, the purity and beauty and genetic superiority of the Aryan race, at the order and security of Nazi society, well, THEN the rest of the world would understand. 
 
They thought the rest of the world would admire them for what they had done. 
 
They wanted the world's fear and respect -- for in their minds fear and respect were the same thing. 
 
They were blind to the horror they created. Purposely so. 
 
The Nazis never saw themselves as villains. 
 
Villains never do. 
 
They told themselves they were making their country great again and the atrocities were necessary to that greatness and would be justified in the end. 
 
And little by little, bit by bit, they become monsters. 
 
Little by little, bit by bit, we become monsters. 
 
Our leaders tell us that we are losing our identity, our history, our rights and privileges, our security and we come to fear that they are right. 
 
This is how it goes. 
 
And little by little, bit by bit, we become monsters.
 
Cages. 
 
They say it's not inaccurate. They  say, well, yes, it may be cages, they may be putting children in cages, but they are not being treated like animals. In cages. 
 
Little by little, bit by bit, rationalized, normalized, we become monsters. 
 
They made us do it, you see. If they had not come seeking our mercy, why, we wouldn't have had to put their children into cages. We had to do it, to protect America. 
 
Little by little, bit by bit, we become the monsters. 
 
Some were already monsters. 
 
Little by little, bit by bit, it became normal for them to show themselves in public. To take pride in their monstrousness and raise up horror as a virtue.  
 
Little by little, bit by bit, the atrocities are justified in the name of law and order, in the name of security, because we had to, and we become the monsters. 
 
 
(From @stonekettle)
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TexArcher

TexArcher 37519

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1 minute ago, realgreggym said:

They gassed members of my family. They were not victims.

And they made my paternal grandparents abandon their homeland (Poland).

They weren't even Jews.  Catholics.  But they knew what was coming.

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Goredho

Goredho 17349

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One may dislike Hitler's system and yet admire his patriotic achievement. If our country were defeated, I hope we should find a champion as indomitable to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations. — Winston Churchill

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TornACL

TornACL 7676

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You might want to provide the entire quote there, guy. 

1937:

To feel deep concern about the armed power of Germany is in no way derogatory to Germany. On the contrary, it is a tribute to the wonderful and terrible strength which Germany exerted in the Great War, when almost single-handed she fought nearly all the world and nearly beat them. Naturally, when a people who have shown such magnificent military qualities are arming night and day, its neighbours, who bear the scars of previous conflicts, must be anxious and ought to be vigilant. One may dislike Hitler’s system and yet admire his patriotic achievement. If our country were defeated I hope we should find a champion as indomitable to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations. I have on more than one occasion made my appeal in public that the Führer of Germany should now become the Hitler of peace.

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Eastwood

Eastwood 4394

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3 minutes ago, TornACL said:

You might want to provide the entire quote there, guy. 

1937:

To feel deep concern about the armed power of Germany is in no way derogatory to Germany. On the contrary, it is a tribute to the wonderful and terrible strength which Germany exerted in the Great War, when almost single-handed she fought nearly all the world and nearly beat them. Naturally, when a people who have shown such magnificent military qualities are arming night and day, its neighbours, who bear the scars of previous conflicts, must be anxious and ought to be vigilant. One may dislike Hitler’s system and yet admire his patriotic achievement. If our country were defeated I hope we should find a champion as indomitable to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations. I have on more than one occasion made my appeal in public that the Führer of Germany should now become the Hitler of peace.

In this day and age, literally everything you would ever want to know or verify is available on the internet. Why people think they can either a.) quote a historical figure without verifying the veracity of the quote within the context of the discussion or b.) attempt to outright mislead people with easily discredited information with a simple google search is beyond me.

https://winstonchurchill.org/resources/writings-articles-and-books/the-fine-art-of-selective-quoting/

The Fine Are of Selective Quoting.

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Brian Fantana

Brian Fantana 6668

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40 minutes ago, Goredho said:

One may dislike Hitler's system and yet admire his patriotic achievement. If our country were defeated, I hope we should find a champion as indomitable to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations. — Winston Churchill

Fucking moron you should be banned

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F250

F250 28691

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I don't think we can have a serious discussion without first covering the Treaty of Versailles, the global depression, state of German economy, Communist threat sweeping Europe and a few other issues. The statements in the OP are fairly superficial meant to make a hasty comparison to Trumpkins.

 

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Michael Knight

Michael Knight 12898

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40 minutes ago, Eastwood said:

In this day and age, literally everything you would ever want to know or verify is available on the internet. Why people think they can either a.) quote a historical figure without verifying the veracity of the quote within the context of the discussion or b.) attempt to outright mislead people with easily discredited information with a simple google search is beyond me.

https://winstonchurchill.org/resources/writings-articles-and-books/the-fine-art-of-selective-quoting/

The Fine Are of Selective Quoting.

Anything is a dildo if your brave enough 

-- Abraham Lincoln

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Goredho

Goredho 17349

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Lol, touchy subject?  I’m not attempting to mislead anyone about anything.  I find the quote, full or not, interesting in the context of what Hugo put forth — that Hitler rose to power not on promises to build Auschwitz and enact the final solution to the Jewish problem.  Hitler rose to power with an appeal to the common German’s sense of national pride and a promise to Make Germany Great Again.  If you were living in Germany after WWI, with all of the punitive effects of losing the war coupled with a global depression, it would have been a seductive message.  And to some degree, at least early on, he delivered on his promises and would have been viewed by many at the time as a savior to Germany.  Churchill was intelligent and nuanced enough to recognize that.  We should be, too.

I agree with Hugo that there are parallels here.  A lot of the people who support Trump, the common men and women who are really buying into his message, feel that “their America” has been under siege.  That liberal elites, globalists and the deep state are destroying their ability to pursue life, liberty and happiness.  To them, Trump would be a God send.

And now here we are with our orange Fuhrer enacting policies to separate the families of undesirables in interment camps.  The parallels won’t stop there.  The people that have supported Trump will find themselves in due time to be on the wrong side of morality, the wrong side of Christian/spiritual virtue and the wrong side of history.  A just reckoning is coming, and it will be hard on America, but especially to those that have cast their lot with Trump that will have to live with their complicity and shame.

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Fozzz

Fozzz 152

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I just don’t see Trump as much of an ideologue. The most awful stuff from this admin comes from others, particularly Sessions and Miller. Those two are far more dangerous. 

I do think there are interesting questions to ask regarding the growing neo-fascist movement in Europe and its relationship with propaganda that is becoming more common on the American right.  

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FuckTrump

FuckTrump 4

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2 hours ago, realgreggym said:

They gassed members of my family. They were not victims.

Kid 20 years from now after attacking the US

"They were not victims. I was a victim. When I was a child they tore me from my mother's arms and locked me in a cage where they mocked me. I never saw my parents again and ended up living in horrible conditions bouncing from place to place. They deserved to die."

America is supposed to be the shining beacon to the world showing that you can prosper and rule with peace and dignity. We aren't supposed to be borrowing tactics from piece of shit 3rd world country dictators. 

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realgreggym

realgreggym 833

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2 hours ago, TexArcher said:

And they made my paternal grandparents abandon their homeland (Poland).

They weren't even Jews.  Catholics.  But they knew what was coming.

My grandfather's family was from Poland. He got out years earlier but some of his family didn't. Fortunately your grandparents got out.

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Mole

Mole 4320

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If we continue the analogy. Did the nazi grievances have merit? I don't mean the causes they attributed to their grievances but the complaints themselves. Things were bad and there was something unjust going on to them. That obvously doesn't justify pure evil in their response.

A common play in these battles is to minimize the grievances of the trumpkins, but there's something real there. If you strip away all the insanity of circular talking, there's a valid point at the (often missing) heart of what Trump says. The attributed cause might be wrong, but there's a real grievence there, even with the petty stuff. Even "fake news" has a bit of a point.

If you see even the slightest chance that we're heading anywhere in the direction described the op, it seems there's a pretty compelling reason to deal with the root of problems the trumpkins are screaming about before we take another step.

At its very core, there's something real and unjust they are seeing and experiencing. We should deal with it. That doesn't justify the uglier parts of trumpism, but there's a risk to ignoring these core problems.

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FondrenRoad

FondrenRoad 4378

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What Hugo fails to show is a real timeline. The thing is that "other blaming" leads to "dehumanizing others" leads to "actions against others" leads to "extermination of others." The "blaming" started earlier, but the Nazis started deportations, concentration camps, and forced ghettos in 1933. They started extermination in 1941, 8 years later. 

They were terrible people who evolved into more terrible people. In 1933, the German populace certainly didn't support the extermination of Jewish people. They supported their exclusion. By 1941, things got a lot worse.  

We did the same thing with the Indians until they were considered savages to be exterminated. Even today, you see the actions of the most violent tribes used as justification for widespread extermination.

But now, I'd put us at 1931. I dont think we get to 1941 though because I dont think it's truly possible to stop information and outrage from flowing in this country unless you have close to 75 percent support. A rogue government like Trumps can barely get government in order and even with true control of the military and surveillance apparatus would struggle to shut down the internet and information flow here. 

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13132

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14 minutes ago, Mole said:

At its very core, there's something real and unjust they are seeing and experiencing. We should deal with it.

One of the roots of Trumpism is the death of the middle class and the American Dream. Trump (disingenuously) ran on that in a very open and obvious way. Everyone gets a well-paying job; everyone gets health care. Leftist populist economics solve that problem, which is why Obama->Trump transfers liked Sanders.

Another root of Trumpism is racism/nationalism. Welp... TRUMP 2020!

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13132

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7 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

What Hugo fails to show is a real timeline. The thing is that "other blaming" leads to "dehumanizing others" leads to "actions against others" leads to "extermination of others." The "blaming" started earlier, but the Nazis started deportations, concentration camps, and forced ghettos in 1933. They started extermination in 1941, 8 years later. 

Yep.

History doesn't repeat, it rhymes.

 

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Lucid

Lucid 3

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Little by little we become monsters? We're already there and the Nazis have nothing to do with it. We're living in a nihilistic society built on meaningless materialism and the worship of the self where degeneracy is not only widespread but openly encouraged and even celebrated. Wring your hands over that motherfucker.

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31283

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10 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

One of the roots of Trumpism is the death of the middle class and the American Dream. Trump (disingenuously) ran on that in a very open and obvious way. Everyone gets a well-paying job; everyone gets health care. Leftist populist economics solve that problem, which is why Obama->Trump transfers liked Sanders.

Another root of Trumpism is racism/nationalism. Welp... TRUMP 2020!

Yeah, I think Trump unleashed a vocal minority that seems more prevalent than it actually is.  And he will ultimately be unable to satisfy that minority with anything other than sound bites.  Awful sound bites, but not enough.  And I think his "reign" is galvanizing the people of good will, who remain the majority, see, e.g. the Southern Baptist Convention.

 

And, as F250 notes, the context of Hitler and National Socialism is vastly different.

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relapse98

relapse98 634

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10 hours ago, RayDog said:

So considering the parallels, how long before the assassination attempts start?

Its gonna be a trumpkin that completely bought in and finally comes to the dismay that trump isn't a trumpkin and isn't draining shit. That's who will end up taking him out.

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Jiggy-Z

Jiggy-Z 3432

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11 hours ago, XR4ticlone said:

I think gassing people...doesn't equal detaining people in air conditioned, bed & fed detention centers. 

 

Also...cages...they work great for kids.  Have for years. 

children-behind-a-wire-fence-at-tiverton

...and adults too.bluesb3.jpg

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13132

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3 minutes ago, relapse98 said:

Its gonna be a trumpkin that completely bought in and finally comes to the dismay that trump isn't a trumpkin and isn't draining shit. That's who will end up taking him out.

Yep. That dude in the armored car on the bride is an example.

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FWD

FWD 297

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12 hours ago, Goredho said:

One may dislike Hitler's system and yet admire his patriotic achievement. If our country were defeated, I hope we should find a champion as indomitable to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations. — Winston Churchill

Ah yes, Winston Churchill, the Man Who is Famous for Being Pro-Nazi.

 

You are too stupid to breath.

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EMAWesome

EMAWesome 101

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1 hour ago, Lucid said:

Little by little we become monsters? We're already there and the Nazis have nothing to do with it. We're living in a nihilistic society built on meaningless materialism and the worship of the self where degeneracy is not only widespread but openly encouraged and even celebrated. Wring your hands over that motherfucker.

Watch the interview between Jordan Peterson and Steven Pinker I started another thread with.  Right off the bat Pinker points out that according to any statistical mean one wishes to use how civilization has never been in better shape than it is now.  Just remember when a member of the media does some live report somewhere they never start off with the phrase "Reporting live from a country that has not been at war for the last 50 years"  or  "reporting live from a country who has increased their food production by 60% in the last century despite using 25% less land to grow food on in that same time period."    The media doesn't report good news, it doesn't sell.  If you were a reporter in 2016 and wanted to do a story on the Zika virus in Brazil you went to your editor and told them you wanted to do a story on a mosquito borne virus that has 200,000 cases diagnosed this year in Brazil.   You did not go to your editor and tell them you wanted to do a story about a mosquito borne virus in Brazil that has been diagnosed in one out of every thousand Brazilians this year. You can use the exact same numbers and phrase it one way it's an epidemic, phrase it another way and it's who gives a fuck.  Once you fix a problem it ceases to be subject of discussion in the media.  Everyone focuses on the problems that are no one remembers the problems that aren't anymore.

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kevwun

kevwun 15653

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If you ever bothered to read about that award you would know it's criteria is " a person, a group, an idea, or an object that "for better or for worse... has done the most to influence the events of the year".  Donald Trump can win it and still be terrible.  Just like Hitler and Stalin.

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JBJ

JBJ 3649

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Kerbey Lane used to have a newspaper article from the AAS in 1945.  It was about how the war was unwinnable and Hitler could be tolerated (it was written about a month out from V-Day).  I found it fascinating and would read it everytime I got the table beneath it.  Don't know what happened to it but it got removed one time when they redecorated.

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Chuckie Finster

Chuckie Finster 22600

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40 minutes ago, EMAWesome said:

Watch the interview between Jordan Peterson and Steven Pinker I started another thread with.  Right off the bat Pinker points out that according to any statistical mean one wishes to use how civilization has never been in better shape than it is now.  Just remember when a member of the media does some live report somewhere they never start off with the phrase "Reporting live from a country that has not been at war for the last 50 years"  or  "reporting live from a country who has increased their food production by 60% in the last century despite using 25% less land to grow food on in that same time period."    The media doesn't report good news, it doesn't sell.  If you were a reporter in 2016 and wanted to do a story on the Zika virus in Brazil you went to your editor and told them you wanted to do a story on a mosquito borne virus that has 200,000 cases diagnosed this year in Brazil.   You did not go to your editor and tell them you wanted to do a story about a mosquito borne virus in Brazil that has been diagnosed in one out of every thousand Brazilians this year. You can use the exact same numbers and phrase it one way it's an epidemic, phrase it another way and it's who gives a fuck.  Once you fix a problem it ceases to be subject of discussion in the media.  Everyone focuses on the problems that are no one remembers the problems that aren't anymore.

"Everything sucks right now" is literally the platform that got Trump elected.  Don't even pretend that this is solely a media issue.

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