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Netzer

By Netzer
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gsoda3

gsoda3 3254

Posted
Posted
43 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Since the basepath is established by the runner, and he never touched 3rd, could he have run straight back to 2nd from past 3rd?  There was a guy on 2nd that would have had to head back to first, so the whole thing is illogical, but could that have been his new baseline?

yes as long as he doesn't deviate > 3 ft away from the tag on the way back to 2nd after establishing the new basepath.

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If only statcast had the technology to measure the launch angle and exit velocity of yankee balls that have been hit off of your chin.

Goo Punch
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Hank Chinaski
Hank Chinaski

Good fucking riddance. 

miguelito

miguelito 11262

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Steven Wright (the comedian, not the ball player):

When I was 8, I played little league. I was on first; I stole third; I went straight across. Earlier that week, I learned that the shortest distance between two points was a direct line. I took advantage of that knowledge.

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Pato del Muerto

Pato del Muerto 52489

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20 minutes ago, miguelito said:

Steven Wright (the comedian, not the ball player):

When I was 8, I played little league. I was on first; I stole third; I went straight across. Earlier that week, I learned that the shortest distance between two points was a direct line. I took advantage of that knowledge.

I call bullshit. Even in little league a catcher should be able to throw someone out when they have the shorter throw and the runner has the longer run. This is why he was only a peripheral visionary. 

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Beau Vine

Beau Vine 54212

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Rosenthal with Dusty Baker from theathletic.com:

 

Quote

ON MANAGING

Rosenthal: Would you like to manage again?

I don’t know. I was thinking: Every team I inherited was a bottom-dwelling team, except Washington. Most of the time you’re not going to inherit a first-division team. You’re going to get a losing team.

I don’t know how much time I have to bring another team back, or if I have the desire to do so. I look at my situation on a small scale kind of like Barack Obama’s. He wouldn’t have gotten nominated for president unless we were in a bad way. We were in a terrible, terrible way. It’s the same way in baseball. Most minorities inherited bad teams.

Dave Roberts inherited a great team. I inherited a good team with D.C. Cito Gaston inherited a good team in Toronto. Other than that, all the teams I had, all the teams Don Baylor had, all the teams Hal McRae had, all the teams Lloyd McClendon had, you look at all the minority guys who have been hired, it’s always a bad team that you’ve got to bring back. And then, when you bring ’em back, if you don’t bring ’em back all the way, you’re construed as a loser, not a winner. I refuse to let anybody tell me I’m anything but a winner. I’ve been at it my whole life.

In a perfect world, where I wrote the script, I would have managed this year and next year and I would have been done. My son would have been in his junior year in college. I figured we’d have won a couple of times. I’d have been satisfied and it would have been time to hit it. I really liked Washington a lot. Washington was like San Francisco, but with even a grander scale of education and probably even diversity.

I wasn’t that crazy about Chicago. I was at first, but they turned on me big-time.

Fans turned on you? Ownership?

Both. That’s when the Tribune Company was in trouble. I figured out later, they didn’t give us any help my last two years. We had like a Triple A team out there especially with DLee (Derrek Lee) hurt and Aramis Ramírez hurt. I was like, “Man, it’s my fault?” My wife didn’t want me to go anywhere by myself. I got some death threats. I got some hate mail, some racial mail. The FBI was sitting in my office one day, Hate Crimes division. I was like, “Man, it’s time to go.”

In Cincinnati, no matter what I did or what we did — we brought them from the bottom — they were all over me, all the time, no matter what. If we won, it wasn’t winning the right way. They were like, “I don’t understand this mode of thinking.” Well, I don’t want you to understand my mode of thinking. That’s how I can beat you.

To me, it’s easier to manage now because they’ve taken the personalities away from different managers. I knew managing against Tony La Russa what he might do or might not do, but I wasn’t sure. Managing against Jim Leyland, I wasn’t sure. Bucky Showalter. Was he going to try something crazy? Now, you’re managing more against the computer. I’m thinking, “OK, what would the computer do?” I can make you make moves that you might not know I’m helping you make by what I do.

Because you know what they’re thinking?

Correct.

One of the worst tips I got was when I first got into managing. A guy who was a good friend of mine told me, “If you’ve got a left-hander warming up in the ’pen, and you’ve got a left-handed hitter at the plate, even if the left-hander can’t get left-handed hitters out, bring him anyway because you won’t be second-guessed.” I said, “Man, I can’t do that.” I put myself in position to be second-guessed because I think that’s the right move. I’m not worrying about you second-guessing me.

I always remembered that: You do what you think is right.

Does it bother you, the trend toward guys with no experience getting these managing jobs?

No. Doesn’t bother me at all. I was one of those guys. I had only managed in the Arizona Fall League (before taking over the Giants in 1993). It doesn’t bother me when they don’t have managerial experience. It bothers me a little bit, the guys who have no coaching experience. To me, coaching is what kind of sets you up for managing.

The coaching experience is valuable. It doesn’t happen in basketball or football. Damn near all these guys were assistant coaches or something along the way. That’s why I see the role of manager has been devalued. Baseball got all these old guys out at the same time. Bruce Bochy and Mike Scioscia are about the last old dudes out there. Leyland, Torre, Bobby Cox — I don’t think Bobby was ready to retire — they all got out at the same time. Tony La Russa. But they all got good jobs someplace in baseball.

There has always been a certain racial discrimination. It’s going to be there. It’s getting better in some ways, but worse in other ways. But now you’re seeing the lines of separation between haves and have-nots getting wider. There’s also — which I’m a victim of — age and salary discrimination, big-time. I was talking to Jim Leyland the other day at Barry’s thing (the Giants retired Barry Bonds’ number last Saturday). They’re not paying these guys (managers). General managers now are getting paid.

They’re the rock stars.

They sure are. Big-time. And there is intellectual discrimination.

I’ve had kids ask me: “Where did you go to school?” Well, I went to the school of life. I think I’m pretty smart. I’m well-read. My mom, Christine, was an African-American history teacher. She made us read books. My mom was about education.

Maybe you went to a state school. Maybe that’s all your parents could afford. You’ve got to put in the other work, but sometimes somebody else has the connections. Fourth-generation Cornell or whatever. I know ’em. They’re friends of mine, too. I’m not jealous of ’em. I’m trying to get my son to get in that first generation, and his son, and his kids.

Everything doesn’t just come out of a computer. With some things, the eyes of those who know can see things other people can’t see.

ON THE STATE OF THE GAME

Baker starts by talking about the “misconceptions” of him as a manager.

“Dusty don’t believe in sabermetrics.” What are you talking about, man? I don’t believe in it 100 percent. There ain’t no 100 percent of nothing. There are no absolutes. We were using it before it had a name. You’ve seen me study. What do you think, I was just writing something down?

“Dusty don’t like walks.” I don’t like you going up there looking for a walk. There’s a difference. I remember Chili Davis when he was a rookie. He asked me a very puzzling question. I’ll never forget this. “How do you walk?” It kind of stumped me. I told him, “Well, you walk by not swinging at a bad 1-0 pitch, a bad 3-1 pitch, a bad 1-1 pitch, by not chasing something here or there, fouling off pitches so they can’t repeat it, that’s how you walk.” And a walk is valuable, to put the pitcher in the stretch, especially if you can run. And sometimes I’d rather walk you, if you get on base and can’t go first to third, can’t score from first on a double.

We see that in some of these hitters.

Every day! The game is getting so slow. And it’s not exciting. What happened to the triple? Scoring from first on a double or a long single, running 3-2. I think the game is going to come back.

It has to come back . . .

It’s been killing me to go to these minor-league games. I’m seeing bad baseball. I see bad baserunning, no bunting when they need to bunt. An excessive amount of pop-ups. Strikeouts. Almost a no-hitter every day until the sixth inning. No first-to-thirds. It’s terrible.

I went to a minor-league game and saw this one team taking batting practice. I bet if they had 100 balls, 50 of ’em ended up near home plate. They were all hitting the top of the cage. This one guy hit the top of the cage like five times and this one coach goes, “Good BP.” What? Good BP? That’s the worst BP I’ve ever seen in my life!

This one kid came up and introduced himself to me. He was on the other team. The kid is about 5-foot-9, 150 pounds. I said, “When are you going to play?” And the coach says, “When he hits the ball out of the ballpark in batting practice.”

That’s not what he should be doing.

Thank you! But that’s the mindset. I saw the best hitters in the world. Ted Williams has to be turning over in his grave.

ON THE NATIONALS

The Nationals won 95 and 97 games in Baker’s two seasons as manager, only to be eliminated each year in the decisive fifth game of the Division Series. This season, under Martinez, the team is 61-61, eight games out in the NL East and 6 1/2 out in the race for the second wild card.

You follow the Nationals?

I follow ’em every day.

What has happened?

I don’t know. I’m not there. I can’t straighten ’em out. They’re a great bunch of guys. They’re a different bunch, but they’re a great bunch of guys.

Why are they different?

(Baker paused for almost 10 seconds before answering)

They’re together, but they’re separate.

I learned all my stuff from my dad (the late Johnnie B. Baker Sr.). My dad was Bobby Bonds’ Little League coach. I grew up with Bobby, watching my dad. I was the oldest of five. I was in the Marines. I was the captain of every team I was on, whether I wanted to be or not. I didn’t want to lead. I just wanted to blend in.

I see some guys trying to lead, but I don’t know if they lead in the right manner sometimes.

With the Nationals?

That’s what I see from the outside. I haven’t talked to anybody. I haven’t talked to any coaches. I’ve got some guys who text me, “Hey, Bake, we miss you.” I don’t want to open… this was the toughest wound for me to close.

The toughest because you were so close to possibly winning a World Series?

Baker nods, then begins talking about the controversial passed ball that occurred in Game 5 of last year’s Division Series against the Chicago Cubs.

The Cubs’ Javier Báez would have been the third out after swinging at strike three from Nationals right-hander Max Scherzer, but the ball eluded catcher Matt Wieters, allowing Báez to reach first and continue the inning. Wieters argued that Báez struck him with a backswing, and should have been called out. The Cubs, who already had scored twice that inning to take a 5-4 lead, went on to add two more runs and ultimately won, 9-8.

Joe Torre, MLB’s chief baseball officer, admitted two weeks later that crew chief Jerry Layne and his fellow umpires got the call wrong.

I was listening to (Reds broadcaster) Thom Brennaman the other day saying no one knew the rule. Nobody knows all the rules. I don’t give a s— who you think you are. The umpires didn’t know the rules. Then when I asked Wieters, I don’t think he knew the rule. I said, “Hey man, did he touch you with the bat? Did he hit you with the bat?” And he tells me, “Barely.” Barely! That ain’t the answer I was looking for. You’re supposed to be checking the mask!

He was stunned about the whole play. Everybody was stunned. Then I heard Major League Baseball say we covered that in the meeting with the umpires. That’s what Joe (Torre) said. No, we did not. We did not. They covered their butt. They did not say we could ask for a rule clarification in the middle of the game. I did not know that one. Imagine how long that would have taken. They would have had to call, look it up.

Then the way it was handled, they couldn’t make a decision for two weeks. And that messed up my two-year plan. I’d have been ready (to retire) after next year anyway. I didn’t want any fanfare. I didn’t want nothing. I didn’t want no going-away party. But at the same time, 50 years (in the game) and see you later?

Given that, do you feel any vindication considering what has happened to the Nationals?

I try not to. I try hard not to. My dad used to always tell me, “If you feel vindication, then you’re feeling it against the same guys you were in the foxhole with.” You’re not pulling for the front office. But it’s hard to pull against them without pulling against the players. You try to be neutral in the situation and not give a s—, but you do. Does that make sense?

GettyImages-690369916-300x200.jpg
 
Harper and Baker in 2017 (photo courtesy of Getty Images).

Bryce Harper struggled for two-plus months. He didn’t struggle for two-plus months when you had him…

I know.

I just wonder, when you look at something like that, do you feel like, Damn?

I see what I see. And I see more than most. Pitching, hitting, baserunning, defense — I’ve been around the best. I was one of the best for a few years there, but I’ve been around the best. You’ve got Barry, you’ve got Jeff Kent, Ellis Burke, DLee, Aramis, Sosa, Joey Votto, Ken Griffey Jr. at the end. I played with Hank. I saw Willie (Mays). I was fortunate enough to see all these guys play.

There are times I saw different things in Bryce. I would try to tell (Nationals GM Mike) Rizzo, who knew him from the beginning. And he would say, “He’s always done that.” And I would say, “No, he hasn’t.” I would say things, whether Harper took it to heart or not.

Say things to Bryce?

Yeah. I would take it to Bryce, or take it to (Rick) Schu, try to go through the batting coach. But there were a lot of things in the two years I was there. We’d have these meetings upstairs. You’d be surprised how ownership wanted to release this guy or send this guy to the minors. I was like, “No, man. No! You’re going to tear up my team!”

There are certain guys you need around there for the psychological part with some of the other guys. Just because you’re talented, that doesn’t mean you’re strong physically and spiritually. Sometimes the leaders aren’t who you think the leaders are. Just because you have the most ability, that doesn’t mean you have any leadership qualities. That just means we’re depending upon you when it comes time to do the physical work. But the leader is this little weak guy over here who is really propping you up.

I remember a long time ago when I first got to the Giants, I was trying to figure out who the leaders of the team were going to be. That’s why I never appointed a captain. The way I look at it, leaders are anointed, not appointed. (As a player) I might not agree with who the manager thinks the leader is. I might not want to follow that guy.

There is a question with leadership on that team. There has been for some time. Who is the leader of that team?

Jayson Werth. That’s who they miss.

Jayson said to me, “They miss me and Dusty.” He told me that a few weeks ago.

I believe that. He ain’t lying. He is not lying. And he’s one of the guys they wanted to get rid of. I told him that. I said, “Come here, man, I’m going to tell you something I ain’t supposed to tell you. You better pick your s— up. Because they’re going to get rid of you.” And he did.

He said, “What, with all the money I’m making?” (Werth earned $21 million last season, his last with the club). I said, “They don’t give a s—, they have to pay you anyway.” Players think that’s a safety jacket, a bullet-proof vest? “Here, man. Go home.”

ON LABOR RELATIONS

Baker began talking about labor relations unprompted after I asked him if he was surprised the Nationals were open to trading Harper at the non-waiver deadline. He said such a move would have hurt attendance, then recalled when work stoppages were common in baseball.

I was in every strike there was. After every strike there was a down period (for revenues), and then it shot back up. I learned a lot at a very young age. My first year in the big leagues, that was the first strike — ’72. That was my rookie year. Everyone thought the fans weren’t going to come back, and they did — eventually. Everyone thought the game was going to go broke. We were told the game’s going broke, some team is going to go bankrupt someday if you guys keep asking for all this money. But there hasn’t been a strike or work stoppage in 23 years. That’s how healthy the game is.

There might be one coming.

You think so?

I don’t know. I don’t think the players have it in ’em.

The toughest year for me was ’94. That was the epitome of being (caught in the middle). We were in the players’ union for our pension and medical benefits. But we were paid by the owners, so therefore we were told, “If you keep supporting the union, you won’t have a union to support.” That was tough. And then there were the scabs, and we had to train ’em — that was awful. The whole time I’ve been in the game, that was the worst time I ever spent in baseball. That’s the most unhappy I’ve ever been.

The first strike (in ’72), Hank Aaron had to loan us some money to make it. (In ’81), we loaned Dave Stewart and Bobby Castillo and Bobby Welch some money in L.A. We were in St. Louis when that strike started. We had our own plane. They wouldn’t take us back home, so we had to catch our own flight. Some of the guys didn’t have the money. “Hey man, I don’t know how I’m going to get home.” And we would say, “It’s OK.”

I don’t know if these guys are together like that. The $20 million guy, is he going to help the $500,000 guy or is he going to cross to get his $20 million?

A lot of the players are pissed.

Why?

Because last off-season they thought…

They were sold down the river?

They felt the owners stuck it to them.

I believe that. It smelled of collusion.

We all understand it’s business…

No, it smelled of collusion. I was a victim of the last one.

That’s a strong word. Probably everyone is going to deny it. But when I see Lucas Duda out there. Brandon Phillips now, he just signed with Boston. There probably are still some out there, aren’t there?

Mark Reynolds signed late.

He hit 30 home runs (for the Colorado Rockies) last season.

And he has had a good year for the Nationals.

Hell yes. What did he sign for?

I had to look it up. Reynolds signed a minor-league contract on April 17 with a salary of $1 million in the majors. The Nationals promoted him on May 12, and he has batted .262 with 11 homers and an .856 OPS in 168 plate appearances).

Pitiful. One million. Wow.

Some of these guys did miscalculate, I get it.

Not all of ’em.

ON BARRY BONDS

How was the ceremony for Bonds?

It was pretty cool. Not all the guys showed, of course. Because Barry did some things, too. But it was good. It was good for him. He showed a different side of himself. He’s a lot more humble now. He’s always been personable when he wants to be. He’s smart as hell. Don’t you ever think Barry Bonds ain’t smart. And the only person he really was afraid of was his mom.

I grew up with all of ’em. Barry’s grandmother — Bobby’s mother — baby-sat me so my mom could go back to school. I was over at Bobby Bonds’ house every day. Bobby was four years older than me. And I wanted to be Bobby Bonds. That’s why I played all four sports, including football. That’s why I went to the state track meet in long jump. Because I wanted to be like Bobby Bonds. Bobby was a better athlete.

Than you, or Barry?

Both of us. Bobby Bonds, they would say, “Don’t smoke.” He’d be in the bathroom smoking and then go run for five touchdowns. Bobby would throw a no-hitter and hit two home runs. I ain’t lying. Bobby could do whatever he wanted to do. But Bobby told me Barry was going to be better than him. I couldn’t believe it. But Bobby said Barry was more disciplined. Which he was.

Barry worked his ass off. Barry wanted everyone to think he was just a natural. But Barry would get up after a night game at 8:30 or 9 in the morning, go hit someplace, then come to the stadium and sleep. You would think he wasn’t doing anything. He was out working his ass off.

And he knew nutrition. Barry was the first guy who told me I was eating too much fruit — you’ve got to watch your sugar level. This sucker, he’s a bike rider now. He probably rides 50 miles a day. He’s in great, great shape.

GettyImages-51672720-300x191.jpg
 
Barry Bonds and Baker in 2002 (photo courtesy of Getty Images).

You think he wants the Hall of Fame?

Yeah. Definitely. Oh, heck yeah. Willie talked about it in his speech (Mays, Bonds’ godfather, said, “On behalf of all the people in San Francisco and all over the country, vote this guy in”).

Everybody wants the Hall of Fame. I want the Hall of Fame. I don’t know if I’ll get it or not. All they can hold against me is that I don’t have a championship. But that does make you a Hall of Famer necessarily? I’d have been way over 2,000 wins if they hadn’t taken those (three) years away from me.

I’d be the first brother in there as a manager. The only reason I got this job is because of what Al Campanis said. (Campanis, a former Dodgers executive, said in 1987 that black players “lacked the necessities” to become managers and front-office executives, leading baseball to start recruiting former black players for such positions.) I know that. All of a sudden, after what Al said, they came and got me and Baylor and Hal McRae and Cito. Out of every negative, there’s a potential positive.

ON RACISM

I told Baker I wanted to ask him about some of the old, offensive tweets that recently surfaced from three current major leaguers — Milwaukee Brewers left-hander Josh Hader, Atlanta Braves lefty Sean Newcomb and one of Baker’s former players with the Nationals, shortstop Trea Turner.

The tweets contained some combination of racist, sexist and homophobic remarks.

If something like that had come out when you were manager, how would you have handled it?

Well, I’d talk to ’em about it, find out why. What the circumstances were. How old were you at the time. Have you changed or is that really you? See, some of these guys, it’s really them. Baseball is just a microcosm of society. Some guys change, because they had never been around Latinos or blacks.

A couple of players, I had to talk to ’em. “I know you’ve never had a black manager. I know you’ve never had a black principal. Your daddy probably never had a black boss, depending upon which part of the country or what line of work you’re in.” I even had to ask a couple of players that I played with, “Why are you so prejudiced?” A couple of ’em are my buddies now — big-time. They would say, “I was raised that way.” I’d say, “That’s fine. I bet you were. But now you’re old enough to make your own choice.” You hope some of these guys might have changed. I think more would have changed on the racial front than the gay front.

Because they’re around black people, they’re around Latinos, they’re not around gay people?

Like I said, it’s a microcosm of society. Guess what? There are some gay guys in baseball. They must be tortured inside (not revealing their sexual orientation), but they’re blessed with ability to play baseball.

You know Trea. Is there a trust you think he lost with some of his teammates?

You don’t know (if someone is racist). I don’t think so (on Turner). I would like to think not. But you don’t know.

I was the only black guy in high school, just me and my brother my last two years of high school, in the ’60s. There were some guys who shocked me. I thought they were cool until they got drunk or whatever and slipped. I’m past the point of being shocked. You don’t really know how people are.

Which is true not just in baseball, but in the country as a whole.

I’ve never seen more separation. But then, on the other hand, I’ve never seen blacks and whites and gays and lesbians kissing on Jumbotron before. All the mixed relationships on commercials, that gives me some hope that at least marketers are trying with young people. Every commercial almost has an interracial relationship, whether it’s a white guy and a black girl, some little kids running around. My daughter married a New Hampshire blue blood. My wife’s Filipino. My son is a Hapa. I spent a lot of time in Hawaii, and a Hapa in the Hawaiian culture is any kid that is mixed. Japanese and black. White and Chinese. It doesn’t matter.

Baker then mentioned he was about to visit with an old and unlikely friend, someone he had met in 1968, his second year of pro ball.

I got this country redneck dude coming to meet me. I knew him when I was 19 years old. He had just gotten back from Vietnam. Now he’s in bad health. He’s diabetic, lost a couple of toes. And he lives in Richmond. He would come up all the time when I was in Washington.

His dad was a mortician. He’ll tell you his daddy was one of the original boys in the hood. He’s country as hell. But he’s so good-hearted. You would think he’s a straight redneck. Which he is.

But there’s good everywhere. As much as there is bad, there’s good. A lot of times, how you speak and how you look is how you are. But sometimes, it’s not.

 

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Pato del Muerto

Pato del Muerto 52489

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

 

Wow. Terrible.

 

Without first having reread the rule, is it the same rule that governs foul balls near the stands in that once it’s out of play the fans have a right to it?  That ball, without being touched by fan nor player, was a home run. Fan didn’t reach down below the wall. Is that the rationale?

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Helobious

Helobious 9448

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Without first having reread the rule, is it the same rule that governs foul balls near the stands in that once it’s out of play the fans have a right to it?  That ball, without being touched by fan nor player, was a home run. Fan didn’t reach down below the wall. Is that the rationale?

That's correct, it was the right call. Still a dick move by the fan. 

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Beau Vine

Beau Vine 54212

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Without first having reread the rule, is it the same rule that governs foul balls near the stands in that once it’s out of play the fans have a right to it?  That ball, without being touched by fan nor player, was a home run. Fan didn’t reach down below the wall. Is that the rationale?

No, doesn't matter if the ball would have been a home run or not.  If the fan leans out over the playing field and "clearly prevents" the fielder from making a play, it's fan interference, period.

Rule 3.16
When there is spectator interference with any thrown or batted ball, the ball shall be dead at the moment of interference and the umpire shall impose such penalties as in his opinion will nullify the act of interference.

APPROVED RULING: If spectator interference clearly prevents a fielder from catching a fly ball, the umpire shall declare the batter out.

 

I'd assume the replay review got hung up on the "clearly prevents" part, because they'd be assuming Jay was going to make a running leaping incredible catch.  The rule doesn't say it's interference if it prevents the fielder from having a chance to make a play; it has to clearly prevent the fielder from making a play.

 

1 hour ago, Helobious said:

That's correct, it was the right call. Still a dick move by the fan. 

I'm starting think you're just a troll, because no one is wrong as much as you are.  

 

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TonyTexas

TonyTexas 10510

Posted
Posted

I think they must have decided that the fan didn’t reach into the field of play thus no fan interference.

In every case of spectator interference with a batted or thrown ball, the ball shall be declared dead and the baserunners can be placed where the umpire determines they would have been without the interference. When a spectator clearly prevents a fielder from catching a fly ball by reaching onto the field of play, the batter shall be ruled out. But no interference is called if a spectator comes in contact with a batted or thrown ball without reaching onto the field of play -- even if a fielder might have caught the ball had the spectator not been there.

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Beau Vine

Beau Vine 54212

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Posted

I don't think there was any way that Miley was trying to hit him, but after the fuckery over the last couple of days, I'm OK with an ump giving a warning when a guy throws behind a batter after his guy got hit earlier.  

And it looked to me that Counsell was trying to get tossed.

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