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Helobious

Helobious 9450

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The award is called "Most Valuable Player", not "Most Best Player" or whatever. How "valuable" are you really if your team is losing almost 90 games every year and you've never even been on the winning side of a playoff game? Change the name of the award or give it to the best player on a team that is at least somewhat of a contender.  

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If only statcast had the technology to measure the launch angle and exit velocity of yankee balls that have been hit off of your chin.

Goo Punch
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Hank Chinaski
Hank Chinaski

Good fucking riddance. 

shnsajax

shnsajax 3591

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, DanRydell said:

https://lifewithmelis310373032.wordpress.com/2018/09/19/site-settings-you-no-longer-have-a-secret-you-have-a-story-wordpress-com/

Addison Russell’s ex-wife blogged about their relationship and his abuse.

There was talks about this last year, but this only makes it worse again. He's gone this offseason, Javy to SS and Happ/Zobrist at 2nd. Sucks one of the best defensive SS in baseball, but shit like this will prevent him from figuring it all out. Hopefully he gets the help he needs. 

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Hank Chinaski

Hank Chinaski 6314

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14 hours ago, Helobious said:

The award is called "Most Valuable Player", not "Most Best Player" or whatever. How "valuable" are you really if your team is losing almost 90 games every year and you've never even been on the winning side of a playoff game? Change the name of the award or give it to the best player on a team that is at least somewhat of a contender.  

I've never understood this. Why do you presume that "valuable" doesn't mean "best?" And how exactly would you define "valuable" in the context of baseball players? Wouldn't a player who performs better than all other players be the most "valuable?"

There are elaborate statistical methods for quantifying player value. They aren't perfect, but they certainly get you very close to truly assessing value. 

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Vic Mackey

Vic Mackey 47009

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I’m not liking the vibes on the Cubs right now. Hamels gets rocked yesterday and has been slowly getting worse his last 4 starts, Q off to a bad start today against a AAA team, and the Russell thing hanging over the team. Not what you want less than 2 weeks from October.
Hamels reverting back to what he was at the end of his Rangers era, especially the 2016 playoffs.
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Guadaloopy

Guadaloopy 10958

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2 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

i disagree. i think that a pitcher being named mvp is ludicrous. jacob deform has played 30 times this year. 30 times. he has 8 wins. 30 games played; 8 wins. even if a pitcher wins 20/35 you simply cannot seriously consider nominating him for mvp.

2011 Justin Verlander says “hi.”

But yeah, it’s going to look funny when a Cy Young winner has single digit wins and a losing record.   His teammates should all quit baseball.  

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MC Fresh Breath

MC Fresh Breath 4074

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I kind of get that, but then they should make it official that the MVP is not for pitchers.  Because as my man Keith Law puts it "The Most Valuable Player should be the player who produced the most value, full stop."   DeGrom is having a historical season.

Kershaw got both, recently.

 

https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2014/11/14/the-10-pitchers-to-win-cy-young-and-mvp-in-one-season/

 

 

 

Edited by MC Fresh Breath
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TheFlagship

TheFlagship 432

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42 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

i disagree. i think that a pitcher being named mvp is ludicrous. jacob deform has played 30 times this year. 30 times. he has 8 wins. 30 games played; 8 wins. even if a pitcher wins 20/35 you simply cannot seriously consider nominating him for mvp.

I don’t necessarily disagree with you, but wins have nothing to do with his candidacy. Wins are a team stat. Cy Young/MVP are individual awards.

Also for the record, deGrom has faced 810 batters this year (with one start to go). MVP favorites Yelich and Baez have 610 and 601 plate appearances respectively. The fact that starting pitchers have less of an impact on a season is just not true. They’re involved in way more at bats over the course of a season. 

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Hank Chinaski

Hank Chinaski 6314

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9 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

I kind of get that, but then they should make it official that the MVP is not for pitchers.  Because as my man Keith Law puts it "The Most Valuable Player should be the player who produced the most value, full stop."   DeGrom is having a historical season.

Kershaw got both, recently.

 

https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2014/11/14/the-10-pitchers-to-win-cy-young-and-mvp-in-one-season/

 

 

 

Yup, it's difficult to argue with that, and that's how the award descriptions are laid out. I'd still prefer to see a separation of awards though. 

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Hank Chinaski

Hank Chinaski 6314

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19 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

How about this...who cares?  It’s baseball awards. Doesn’t affect the season, doesn’t change the stats. 

I mean, you certainly don't have to care. Most people who enjoy baseball do though, at least to some degree, and it does matter for individual players for things like HOF election, etc. 

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DanRydell

DanRydell 799

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i disagree. i think that a pitcher being named mvp is ludicrous. jacob deform has played 30 times this year. 30 times. he has 8 wins. 30 games played; 8 wins. even if a pitcher wins 20/35 you simply cannot seriously consider nominating him for mvp.


In those 30 games, he had as much impact as any position player over the course of the season.

DeGrom has faced 810 batters this season. By way of comparison, Yelich has had 610 plate appearances.
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Goo Punch

Goo Punch 4275

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10 hours ago, TheFlagship said:

I don’t necessarily disagree with you, but wins have nothing to do with his candidacy. Wins are a team stat. Cy Young/MVP are individual awards.

Also for the record, deGrom has faced 810 batters this year (with one start to go). MVP favorites Yelich and Baez have 610 and 601 plate appearances respectively. The fact that starting pitchers have less of an impact on a season is just not true. They’re involved in way more at bats over the course of a season. 

1)of course they do. if they didn't then we wouldn't have waited for a guy to win 24 games to give him the mvp. degrom has more losses than wins on his record this year- how can that be the most valuable player in the entire league?

 

2)of course it is. they literally don't play in 80% of the team's games. there is no argument that says that a guy who appears in 34 games has more impact than someone who plays in 150+ games while putting up huge numbers. at-bats are only a piece of the story- these guys also play 150+ games worth of defense, they run the bases, they simply have much more of an impact on the team, by a huge margin. i don't care how awesome you are in your 34 games, when you sit out 125 games per season you did not impact your team as much as an every day starter who puts up mvp numbers.

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Goo Punch

Goo Punch 4275

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5 hours ago, DanRydell said:

 


In those 30 games, he had as much impact as any position player over the course of the season.

DeGrom has faced 810 batters this season. By way of comparison, Yelich has had 610 plate appearances.

 

your first sentence is irrefutably false. it's literally not possible to have a bigger overall impact when you play 130 fewer games than an every day position player who take at bats and plays defense and runs the bases at an mvp level. and again, at-bats are only part of the equation. javy baez gets 600 at bats, plays gold glove defense at 3 positions, steals bases, scores runs, and plays every day, but Jon Lester had a bigger impact on the cubs? no no no no no. just no. come on guys. 

Edited by Goo Punch
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Goo Punch

Goo Punch 4275

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8 minutes ago, TheFlagship said:

You’re couldn’t be more wrong but you’re not worth arguing with

right, i'm only worth you stealing my identity. go throw your tantrum somewhere else you fucking loser. you're the last person to talk down on me.

 

for those who don't know this stupid piece of shit here ran over to this site and registered as "derka" and pretended to be me for the first couple of weeks, hence my new handle. he still does it every now and then. completely pathetic. 

Edited by Goo Punch
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TheFlagship

TheFlagship 432

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11 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

right, i'm only worth you stealing my identity. go throw your tantrum somewhere else you fucking loser. you're the last person to talk down on me.

 

for those who don't know this stupid piece of shit here ran over to this site and registered as "derka" and pretended to be me for the first couple of weeks, hence my new handle. he still does it every now and then. completely pathetic. 

Lmao where the hell did that come from? I didn’t do that at all. That’s some Alex Jones level shit

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Goo Punch

Goo Punch 4275

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3 minutes ago, TheFlagship said:

Lmao where the hell did that come from? I didn’t do that at all. That’s some Alex Jones level shit

yes you did. don't even act like this hasn't been brought up 100 times already. you also negged every single post i made for the first several days. you're one of these people here who go out of their way to be a total ass to me, only for you to convince yourselves that i'm the problem, that i'm the one starting shit. it's completely delusional.

 

and don't go throwing a fit every time i disagree with you. that is the absolute worst part of this site, and thankfully it's something that we've managed to avoid this entire year in this thread. i'm allowed to disagree with you, and when that happens the thread hasn't been "derka'd", you're just throwing a fit because i'm the one disagreeing with you. don't do that crap. 

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DanRydell

DanRydell 799

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2 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

your first sentence is irrefutably false. it's literally not possible to have a bigger overall impact when you play 130 fewer games than an every day position player who take at bats and plays defense and runs the bases at an mvp level. and again, at-bats are only part of the equation. javy baez gets 600 at bats, plays gold glove defense at 3 positions, steals bases, scores runs, and plays every day, but Jon Lester had a bigger impact on the cubs? no no no no no. just no. come on guys. 

So based on your value in participation, since deGrom was involved in 200 more plate appearances than Yelich, for Yelich to be as or more impactful, we need to find 200 more plate appearances where he was not at bat but nevertheless he had an impact.

There were 311 balls hit in Yelich's vicinity this year. 214 of those were routine and 58 were impossible, leaving 39 plate appearances where he could make an impact (he made the out on 23 of those).

So in addition to those 39 fielding opportunities when he could make an impact, we need to find 161 baserunning opportunities for him to do so. 

Yelich was on base 200 times this year (175 hits + 56 walks - 31 home runs). Surely you don't believe he made a non-routine play on the basepaths over 75% of the times he was on base, right?

 

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Goo Punch

Goo Punch 4275

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your entire premise presupposes that every single event involved in a baseball game is equal in value- every at-bat that degrom pitches is worth exactly the same to his team as every at-bat, fielded play, every base running play, and so on and so forth. your presupposition also ignores facets such as base running. this presupposition is wrong. every play in an mlb season is not created equal.

Javy Baez- besides all the runs he's scored, the runs he's driven in, the bases he's stolen- how many runs has he saved defensively? how many double plays has he turned? how many spectacular, exemplary plays has he made defensively and on the base paths, day after day after day for 150 games? plays that not even modern stats can account for their worth? i'm sorry, but there is absolutely no logical argument that a pitcher who plays a fraction of the positions and a fraction of the games has a bigger overall impact than an mvp candidate who plays in the field and bats every day. jacob degrom has played 209 innings where he's had a huge impact on the mound, minimal impact in the field, and essentially zero impact at the plate and in the base paths. javy baez has played ~1,350 innings where he's made a major impact at the plate, a major impact in the field, and a major impact on the base paths. the production is not close.

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Goo Punch

Goo Punch 4275

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i'd vote for a dh like 2017 David Ortiz as MVP before i'd vote for a pitcher. I could very very easily make an argument that Josh Hader, a reliever, is more valuable to the Brewers than DeGrom is to the Mets. Hader has only two fewer wins, eight fewer losses, and he almost exclusively pitches in high leverage situations with the game in the balance. He's also played in 51 games to DeGrom's 31. He's been the most dominant pitcher in baseball and he pitches when it counts. There's no way the Brewers sniff the playoffs without him. The Mets record doesn't change much without DeGrom.

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Hank Chinaski

Hank Chinaski 6314

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15 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

i'd vote for a dh like 2017 David Ortiz as MVP before i'd vote for a pitcher. I could very very easily make an argument that Josh Hader, a reliever, is more valuable to the Brewers than DeGrom is to the Mets. Hader has only two fewer wins, eight fewer losses, and he almost exclusively pitches in high leverage situations with the game in the balance. He's also played in 51 games to DeGrom's 31. He's been the most dominant pitcher in baseball and he pitches when it counts. There's no way the Brewers sniff the playoffs without him. The Mets record doesn't change much without DeGrom.

This again gets into the flawed logic that a player is somehow made less valuable if his teammates aren't good. There is a calculable "value" attached to every plate appearance, every hitter faced, and it only makes sense to calculate it while accounting for other factors over which the hitter or pitcher have no control. 

That said, while WAR allows for a "value" comparison between pitchers and position-players, it still seems like apples and oranges to me (though I understand the math behind it and I certainly don't have a better suggestion). I'm sure that teams have their own customized methodologies for calculating this.

But as it relates to MVP awards, I do prefer for it to go to position players, as the CY already honors the best pitchers. 

Edited by Hank Chinaski
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Dutchrudder

Dutchrudder 11133

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Posted

Indians first team in history to have four pitchers strike out 200 in a season

The Cleveland Indians have become the first team in Major League Baseball history to have four pitchers reach 200 strikeouts in a season.

Mike Clevinger hit that mark with his fourth strikeout against the Boston Red Sox on Saturday night, joining fellow starters Carlos Carrasco (217), Trevor Bauer (215) and Corey Kluber (205).

Despite having a combined 837 strikeouts among that foursome, the Indians as a team rank fifth in the majors in whiffs, behind the Astros (1,600), Yankees(1,527), Dodgers (1,485) and Red Sox (1,471) entering Saturday.

The AL Central champion Indians, with the help of Clevinger's six strikeouts overall, beat the Red Sox, 5-4 in extra innings.

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DanRydell

DanRydell 799

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your entire premise presupposes that every single event involved in a baseball game is equal in value- every at-bat that degrom pitches is worth exactly the same to his team as every at-bat, fielded play, every base running play, and so on and so forth. your presupposition also ignores facets such as base running. this presupposition is wrong. every play in an mlb season is not created equal.
Javy Baez- besides all the runs he's scored, the runs he's driven in, the bases he's stolen- how many runs has he saved defensively? how many double plays has he turned? how many spectacular, exemplary plays has he made defensively and on the base paths, day after day after day for 150 games? plays that not even modern stats can account for their worth? i'm sorry, but there is absolutely no logical argument that a pitcher who plays a fraction of the positions and a fraction of the games has a bigger overall impact than an mvp candidate who plays in the field and bats every day. jacob degrom has played 209 innings where he's had a huge impact on the mound, minimal impact in the field, and essentially zero impact at the plate and in the base paths. javy baez has played ~1,350 innings where he's made a major impact at the plate, a major impact in the field, and a major impact on the base paths. the production is not close.


You’re the one presupposing that participation correlates to value. I’m simply demonstrating what a shitass understanding of participation you have.

And I explicitly accounted for baserunning so no, I did not ignore it at all.

Modern stats do have at least a rough estimation of how many runs scored Baez has been worth this his bat and his base running plus how many runs prevented he has been worth with his glove and arm. It’s called Runs Above Replacement. And he’s been worth about 50.3 runs more than a replacement-level shortstop this year. deGrom by comparison has been worth 70.3 runs more than a replacement-level starting pitcher.
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DanRydell

DanRydell 799

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But as it relates to MVP awards, I do prefer for it to go to position players, as the CY already honors the best pitchers. 


I do completely agree with this by the way. Because pitchers have the Cy Young and there is no explicit “most outstanding position player” award, I effectively view the MVP as a position player award. So I don’t think deGrom should win it, just not for the dumbass reasons Derka said.
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Derka _original_

Derka _original_ 3

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9 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

yes you did. don't even act like this hasn't been brought up 100 times already. you also negged every single post i made for the first several days. you're one of these people here who go out of their way to be a total ass to me, only for you to convince yourselves that i'm the problem, that i'm the one starting shit. it's completely delusional.

 

and don't go throwing a fit every time i disagree with you. that is the absolute worst part of this site, and thankfully it's something that we've managed to avoid this entire year in this thread. i'm allowed to disagree with you, and when that happens the thread hasn't been "derka'd", you're just throwing a fit because i'm the one disagreeing with you. don't do that crap. 

Hello.  

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