Tyre Nichols beaten to death by 5 Memphis police officers

[hobbes2702 13032]

2 hours ago, 52-80 said:

Its always a dumb strawman attack from the *regarded accounts.  They misconstruct actual events into some perverted indefensible position.

“Cops should not be executioners”. No fucking shit, way to go out on a limb there.

It distorts the inconvenient fact that the overwhelming majority of cop homicide are not anything resembling an “execution”. They are called in by the public, to encounters someone pointing a gun at them, or charging them with a knife, or driving at them with a car. In which case, they are empowered in their duty to stop the reported threat. 

It just so happens, over 80%+ of the deaths happen like that. Identically across every ethnicity. Gee whiz, right?

Of the 1000 annual deaths like these, statistically some are bound to be unjustified. Some are pretty much an execution (like this Tyre Nichols one). Its horrible, and demands justice. 

But if you say “there should be zero death involving cops. every death is a failure [by cops]”, its a hopelessly naive statement.  Knowing who said it, its just a case of supreme stupidity. 

Yes you sure seem to be the guy to explain “hopelessly naive” positions to us.

[Neonmoon 38129]

2 hours ago, Bevo said:

Are India, Brazil, and the Philippines bad places to visit?

Brazil 

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/brazil-travel-advisory.html#:~:text=Country Summary%3A Violent crime%2C such,Assaults are common.

 

Country Summary:  Violent crime, such as murder, armed robbery, and carjacking, is common in urban areas, day and night.  Gang activity and organized crime is widespread.  Assaults are common.

Philippines 

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/philippines-travel-advisory.html#:~:text=Exercise increased caution to the,Read the entire Travel Advisory.

Country Summary: Terrorist and armed groups continue plotting possible kidnappings, bombings, and other attacks in the Philippines. Terrorist and armed groups may attack with little or no warning, targeting tourist locations, markets/shopping malls, and local government facilities

India 

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/india-travel-advisory.html

Country Summary: Indian authorities report rape is one of the fastest growing crimes in India. Violent crime, such as sexual assault, has occurred at tourist sites and in other locations. Terrorists may attack with little or no warning, targeting tourist locations, transportation hubs, markets/shopping malls, and government facilities.

 

[Celery Man 20934]

Plus the diarrhea

[wildcat09 29349]

2 hours ago, 52-80 said:

For myself and everyone I know, our outcomes in life high or low is 95% a product of our own doing. 
 

Lol

[Beau Vine 54212]

^^^^^

That is the most naive thing I've ever read.

[Homercles 10205]

“All the middle class folk that I know in my small corner of this country are 95% where they are because of their own choices”

[Neonmoon 38129]

3 minutes ago, Homercles said:

“All the middle class folk that I know in my small corner of this country are 95% where they are because of their own choices”

[fattyflattie 4639]

4 hours ago, 52-80 said:

For myself and everyone I know, our outcomes in life high or low is 95% a product of our own doing. 

I believe you mean luck and privilege?

[Helobious 9448]

Demonstrations have rolled on but largely a quiet day by Memphis standards, seems like nothing crazy has happened tonight (yet) either. I think violence and damage can still happen but it just doesn’t seem like the chaos is there to cause the whole city to burn like many in here thought.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

Ignore list is y’all’s friend. 

[Deej 76759]

7 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

Explain to me how other countries don’t let officers carry guns and yet haven’t turned into the proverbial hellscape? 
 

But we are in good company 

Top 10 Countries with the Highest Numbers of Police Killings in the World (most recent annual data):

1. Philippines — 6,069+ (avg 2016-2021—includes only deaths during anti-drug operations)
2. Brazil — 5,804 (2019)
3. Venezuela — 5,287 (2018)
4. India — 1,731 (2019)
5. Syria — 1,497 (2019)
6. El Salvador — 1087 (2017)
7. United States — 946 (2020)
8. Nigeria — 841 (2018)
9. Afghanistan — 606 (2018)
10. Pakistan — 495 (2017

That list is the who’s who of vacation destinations 

Number 7 with a bullet.

[Zepol87 9185]

1 hour ago, Homercles said:

“All the middle class folk that I know in my small corner of this country are 95% where they are because of their own choices”

Surly Motto

Edited January 29, 2023 by Zepol87

[David Dennison 18855]

6 hours ago, 52-80 said:

For myself and everyone I know, our outcomes in life high or low is 95% a product of our own doing.  

 

[Bama Chick 28596]

The original police statement is absolutely disgusting.



ACAB (and total liars)

[52-80 19150]

9 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

^^^^^

That is the most naive thing I've ever read.

what great forces today are stuffing your and other peoples self agency?

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

On 1/27/2023 at 1:25 PM, hayden_horn said:

no.

that's also a racist red-herring.

the platonic/ideal condition, as i've been trying to learn, is to be impartial as possible, race-conscious, culturally aware, and try to use that information to make the best decision you can.

by race-conscious, i mean that in a positive context, but it can also make me weirdly self-conscious in a way that i'm still not comfortable with, but that's okay.

i used to say "i don't see color" or similar shit like that. it was racist. of course i saw color. of course people see my whiteness. of course i see that hot girl over there and the sweathog dude on the harley. we make judgments every day. 

the key, i'm learning, is mindfulness. asking yourself critical questions all the time. it sucks and it's hard. i get tired of doing it.

that's why i asked you if you think before you post. i haven't always thought before posting, and this is definitely the board to shoot from your hip, so i get it. 

but where you fall down is looking at a work in progress, seeing an improvement, and declaring it done. 

race relations will never be done. black people have shit to think about also. we all have shit to think about. that's part of being a human. 

also part of being human, sadly, is the casting out, either metaphorically or literally, those who look or act or believe differently than you.

i'm just telling you that is what you are doing even if you do not realize it. like knows like. i used to do it all the time.

I have this ongoing online relationship with a woman of color from Hawaii...She is hands-down the most intelligent person I've ever met in my life, and I've known me some smartypantses, including @Brisketexan. Anyway, she got me to take some psych test from Harvard or similar that purports to tell you how racist you are. My result: I actually prefer the company of people of color, but feel somewhat uneasy around them, mostly because of my own white guilt and shame. 

I was lucky enough to have attended fully integrated schools from k- through grade 3 and I think it really helped me to see people as people. My little wrestling partner in kindergarten was Black; my first little crush was as well. (She destroyed my poor crazy heart but that's a whole 'nother story). It's a disgrace and a tragedy that we as Americans have all but abandoned the ideal of fully integrated schools.

And then living among the po' folks in England for three years, and marrying one, I learned that we too often misattribute the patholigies that come with the territory of poverty to race, because over here, we think, not entirely accurately, that Blackness equals poverty which equals crime. I am here to tell y'all that the white folks living in the projects in England act exactly like the Black folks in the projects in New Orleans. A working class pub in England is rougher than any old-school hole-in-the-wall bar or club than I've been to in any Houston ward, and I've visited more than a few.

So while we do fixate on race because of our collective past, I have come to believe we need to more closely examine our (allegedly non-existent) class system.

Edited January 29, 2023 by MaybeACoordinator

[Celery Man 20934]

I dunno, sounds suspiciously like clap-trap.

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

5 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

I dunno, sounds suspiciously like clap-trap.

Here it is: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/user/agg/blindspot/indexrk.htm

[Bevo 13576]

32 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

I have this ongoing online relationship with a woman of color from Hawaii...

And then living among the po' folks in England for three years, and marrying one...

Hmmmm.

 

 

What color?

[Neonmoon 38129]

41 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Here it is: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/user/agg/blindspot/indexrk.htm

My results 

“Your data suggest a moderate automatic preference for African American children compared to European American children” 

This study is bullshit because I hate all kids 

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

19 minutes ago, Bevo said:

Hmmmm.

 

 

What color?

She's a Portuguesa cowgirl poet....The Portuguese in Hawaii are a whole different thing than on the mainland. Hawaii is fucking weird and tragic.

[wildcat09 29349]

2 hours ago, 52-80 said:

what great forces today are stuffing your and other peoples self agency?

What jobs did your parents have?

[DigglerontheHoof 21192]

20 hours ago, GoPokes83 said:

This entire situation sucks but…. These cops will go to prison for many decades, useful or maybe not so useful training will be implemented, the guy’s family will be fighting over the multimillion dollar settlement within 5 years, maybe he’ll get a street or school named after him and we should all just not burn shit down over it and move on.

You are, seriously, a rancid piece of shit. 

[Bevo 13576]

10 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

She's a Portuguesa cowgirl poet....The Portuguese in Hawaii are a whole different thing than on the mainland. Hawaii is fucking weird and tragic.

I have no idea what this means but I met a really, really stunningly hot chick when I was in Madera.

[DigglerontheHoof 21192]

24 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

My results 

“Your data suggest a moderate automatic preference for African American children compared to European American children” 

This study is bullshit because I hate all kids 

Mine:

Your data suggest little to no automatic preference between European American children and African American children.

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

8 minutes ago, Bevo said:

I have no idea what this means but I met a really, really stunningly hot chick when I was in Madera.

What I mean is they are / were assigned a place in the Hawaiian class / caste / race system, unlike on the mainland, where they just blend in. And yes they are very hot.

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

3 minutes ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

Mine:

Your data suggest little to no automatic preference between European American children and African American children.

I think there's more to the test than just the kid part somewhere out there. I remember it took me about 20-30 mins to take the whole thing.

[52-80 19150]

24 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

What jobs did your parents have?

My dad delivered pizza with a $750 Corolla and later retired from fabrication work. My mom cut hair and later ran her own shop.  Neither spoke English. 

[bernorange 8361]

1 hour ago, Neonmoon said:

My results 

“Your data suggest a moderate automatic preference for African American children compared to European American children” 

 

36 minutes ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

Mine:

Your data suggest little to no automatic preference between European American children and African American children.

[Woodrow Call 494]

22 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

 

Police in this country are a fucking joke and I wouldn't trust a single one of them with a pellet gun, much less a handgun or long rifle. Fuck cops and fuck any one of you that supports their current incarnation in the US or feels the need to defend their sickening, daily abuses of power.

There's a column in the New York Times today, written by a journalist based in Memphis, that discusses a historical perspective on police violence in Memphis, as well as violence against black males. I know the history, because I've been here since 1962, and was a History major. But most outside of Memphis do not. 

It's harrowing and shows a long line of intentional murders carried out by police in Memphis.

When I was around 12, my dad was having a conversation with an ex-cop. I think we were at our duck club, and they were talking about how "the blacks" were taking over Memphis. Then the cop says, "I remember a day when we just carried out justice down at the Harahan bridge." I was old enough to know what he meant, and I never forgot it. Violence in policing is part of its cultural DNA. They attract males that are inclined toward violence and that hold brutish ideas about how to deal with crime. 

[Celery Man 20934]

4 hours ago, 52-80 said:

what great forces today are stuffing your and other peoples self agency?

 

35 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

My dad delivered pizza with a $750 Corolla and later retired from fabrication work. My mom cut hair and later ran her own shop.  Neither spoke English. 

You seem defensive, which is probably what is causing your irrationality about the statistical fact that where people start impacts where they wind up. You don’t have to understand that as meaning that we have no agency or as an attack on your accomplishments - that’s your choice.

[Homercles 10205]

28 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

 

You seem defensive, which is probably what is causing your irrationality about the statistical fact that where people start impacts where they wind up. You don’t have to understand that as meaning that we have no agency or as an attack on your accomplishments - that’s your choice.

Wanted to add that ‘statistical’ is exactly that…reflective of the inherent distribution of possible outcomes across their lifetimes, given their starting point.  That starting point is inclusive of physical location, economic stature, race, sex, etc and their journey is influenced by work ethic, opportunity, the broader economy, etc.  No one particular outcome is any kind of ‘gotcha’ for the system at large.  
 

Just ask the folks on the gambling board for examples…and that system is infinitely more narrow than the experiences of an individual across their entire lifetime.  How many flawless brackets, created by people with endless knowledge/effort/compute, get ruined every year by someone missing a free throw while a dogs vs cats ‘joke’ bracket wins the office pool?  You can influence your trajectory quite a bit, but not deterministically   

Not to mention bias when looking back is very real…Joe Walsh of all people had a great quote at the end of the Eagles documentary that goes something like ‘at the time, your life seems like random chaos but looking back it’s a finely crafted novel’.  So it’s easy to romanticize your forebears life.  

Edited January 29, 2023 by Homercles

[52-80 19150]

14 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

 

You seem defensive, which is probably what is causing your irrationality about the statistical fact that where people start impacts where they wind up. You don’t have to understand that as meaning that we have no agency or as an attack on your accomplishments - that’s your choice.

I have never asked for a pat on any perceived accomplishment. Over 10 years on the shag, this is the 2nd time i shared this aspect of my background. So no, im not here to seek kudos. 

You think I disagree with the bolded part . Wrong. And its not even central to my point.  Absolute, my life would have statistically landed higher if my parents were Mayflower descendent, Harvard legacy, and country club members. But they’re not, and those are things I (and you) cannot change.

My point is starting *today*,a kid from a line of white welfare opioid addicts vs single black parent in the hood vs yemeni asylum seeker vs cambodian refugee vs el salvador day laborer all start at the same place on socioeconomic ladder: Zero. 

What is meaningfully stopping them from moving up.  And pertaining to this thread, what *relative* difference to that progress on the basis of skin/ethnicity?

[Homercles 10205]

Impressed I didn’t see ‘bootstraps’ mentioned

[52-80 19150]

Someone remarked on my weird English. If it was native to me, perhaps I would’ve made a better corporate schmoozer. If I was 6’3” instead of 5’10”, i would have been beneficiary of statistically-established unconscious bias. But all those compounded headwinds arent responsible for where I am or where im not. 
 

Mustve missed the pity party. 🤷‍♂️

[Captainant 27656]

13 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

My point is starting *today*,a kid from a line of white welfare opioid addicts vs single black parent in the hood vs yemeni asylum seeker vs cambodian refugee vs el salvador day laborer all start at the same place on socioeconomic ladder: Zero. 

One of those groups is statistically more likely to survive encounters with the police, for starters. 

[tigol 2395]

8 minutes ago, Captainant said:

One of those groups is statistically more likely to survive encounters with the police, for starters. 

And incarceration.

[52-80 19150]

9 minutes ago, tigol said:

And incarceration.

Match the police-homicide rate to violent-conviction rate, sorted by race, and try again. 

[Celery Man 20934]

42 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

I have never asked for a pat on any perceived accomplishment. Over 10 years on the shag, this is the 2nd time i shared this aspect of my background. So no, im not here to seek kudos. 

I didn't perceive you as asking for a pat or kudos, or at least not from anyone else.

Quote

You think I disagree with the bolded part . Wrong. And its not even central to my point.  Absolute, my life would have statistically landed higher if my parents were Mayflower descendent, Harvard legacy, and country club members. But they’re not, and those are things I (and you) cannot change.

You said that the outcomes of you and everyone you know is 95% a product of their own doing. Maybe the point you are trying to make is that you run with a crew of outliers, maybe we're getting caught up in a hyperbolic statement you made that is really more about a... perspective from the religion of the bootstraps, etc. Maybe what you mean is that we should disregard the bigger picture of how people's backgrounds and environments impact the choices that they make and instead simply judge their choices, although aside from misanthropy I don't know why you would want to do that. Maybe you can help us understand. Nobody here is making an argument that you can change where you come from.

 

Quote

My point is starting *today*,a kid from a line of white welfare opioid addicts vs single black parent in the hood vs yemeni asylum seeker vs cambodian refugee vs el salvador day laborer all start at the same place on socioeconomic ladder: Zero. 

yes, and?

Quote

What is meaningfully stopping them from moving up.  And pertaining to this thread, what *relative* difference to that progress on the basis of skin/ethnicity?

I feel like "meaningfully" is going to be doing a lot of work for you. Maybe take some history courses or something, I dunno dude. What you seem to keep misunderstanding is that the (again) statistical fact that in the aggregate, demographics and backgrounds have a lot to do with life outcomes, and to argue that this something that should be understood and improved upon is not a request for pity or an abandonment of personal responsibility or whatever else it is that you seem to think it means. Wanting to improve society somewhat and mitigate the systemic legacy of centuries of racially based physical and social violence is not throwing a pity party. Holding the position that it is kinda makes you a piece of shit. I don't think that's what you are, again I think you're not able to understand the nuance here because of your emotional hangups about what it means about your success. Or maybe you feel like you come from immigrants or whatever your story and if you can rise to whatever level of success you've risen, fuck anyone who stumbles on their way or fails to even go down that path. But that falls more into the piece of shit bucket.

Edited January 29, 2023 by Celery Man

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

Pre-WW2, there was a giant and growing white underclass. Bonnie and Clyde were just the sexiest. There were many more like them. And then the war came around, and white folks got the full benefits of the GI Bill and Black folks did not. So pretty all the white folks who had not assembled any generational wealth by 1941 were able to start putting it together, while the Black folks remained stuck with a foot placed firmly on their heads. 

[52-80 19150]

14 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

I didn't perceive you as asking for a pat or kudos, or at least not from anyone else.

You said that the outcomes of you and everyone you know is 95% a product of their own doing. Maybe the point you are trying to make is that you run with a crew of outliers, maybe we're getting caught up in a hyperbolic statement you made that is really more about a... perspective from the religion of the bootstraps, etc. Maybe what you mean is that we should disregard the bigger picture of how people's backgrounds and environments impact the choices that they make and instead simply judge their choices, although aside from misanthropy I don't know why you would want to do that. Maybe you can help us understand. Nobody here is making an argument that you can change where you come from.

 

yes, and?

I feel like "meaningfully" is going to be doing a lot of work for you. Maybe take some history courses or something, I dunno dude. What you seem to keep misunderstanding is that the (again) statistical fact that in the aggregate, demographics and backgrounds have a lot to do with life outcomes, and to argue that this something that should be understood and improved upon is not a request for pity or an abandonment of personal responsibility or whatever else it is that you seem to think it means. Wanting to improve society somewhat and mitigate the systemic legacy of centuries of racially based physical and social violence is not throwing a pity party. Holding the position that it is kinda makes you a piece of shit. I don't think that's what you are, again I think you're not able to understand the nuance here because of your emotional hangups about what it means about your success. Or maybe you feel like you come from immigrants or whatever your story and if you can rise to whatever level of success you've risen, fuck anyone who stumbles on their way or fails to even go down that path. But that falls more into the piece of shit bucket.

Okay, you didnt suggest i was asking for kudos. Because my story is not unique to me, my ‘crew’, but mirrors that of literally millions of people. Which is contrary to the boards narrative that everyone not white must ve burdened by a mountain of insidious discrimination. It hugely *overweights* external factors over internal ones.
 

Yeah, historically America was fucking terrible. Legalized segregation, internment camp, and actual fucking lynchings. 21st century America is a long fucking way from 20th century America. And the mere fact of praising that development is castigated as “racist talking points”. 
 

This doesnt mean there are no more racial prejudices, and theres nothing to improve. It means prejudice isnt the main cause of all of lifes inequalities. 
 

Yall attach a huge amount of emotion baggage to the belief of racial injustices, but its not validated by facts. Well-intentioned savior complex?

When the violent crime rate matches police-homicide rate matches the %armed rate, maybe, just maybe, the police homicide rate isnt biased towards race?

[Beau Vine 54212]

2 hours ago, 52-80 said:

My dad delivered pizza with a $750 Corolla and later retired from fabrication work. My mom cut hair and later ran her own shop.  Neither spoke English. 

That would explain your poor communication skills.

[52-80 19150]

8 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

That would explain your poor communication skills.

Sure. Im neither ashamed nor offended by that. What about of the other questions I asked you?

[SurlyGator 865]

This forum need the ability to ignore posters within certain threads, so tangents could not derail for everyone.

[Dahobbs 17534]

22 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

When the violent crime rate matches police-homicide rate matches the %armed rate, maybe, just maybe, the police homicide rate isnt biased towards race?

We have gone over this before. Your use and understanding of these statistics is questionable. But, assume everything you said is correct. Did it ever occur to you that all of those factors are being similarly effected by the same systemic bias? For instance, what if police are more likely to suspect and arrest a black person vs a white person of a violent crime when faced with similar evidence. In that instance, yes, the reported rates of violent crimes would be increased. The fact that it lines up with the police homicide rate would be evidence of the same bias, not evidence of a lack of bias.

For instance, a black person is more likely to be pulled over than a white person even when controlling for all other factors. Here is one of many studies looking at this: https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/21/us/police-stops-race-stanford-study-trnd/index.html

So, yes, race is a factor you cannot control. And it does have a measurable impact on a person's experience and life outcomes. 

 

 

[Homercles 10205]

Again, why bother?  It’s about three pages of the same argument, and you’re not going to convince him…he will always deflect, reference his personal anecdotal experiences or find some study/math.   
 

[Pato del Muerto 52489]

It’s not that race caps potential outcomes, to borrow the example of the different ethnicities starting at the bottom. It’s that it alters the distribution curve of outcomes when applied to a population. 
 

more specific to 52-80’s personal experience:  a $750 Corolla is more likely to break down than a mire expensive model. Perhaps it didn’t in his father’s case but there’s an element of luck to that even if his father maintained it well. For the people whose car does break down, and they miss work, does the manager give them a break and understand, or simply replace them?  Race might play a role here, depending on that particular manager, along with other factors like time of employment, demonstrated reliability, ease of replacement, etc. 

but race could be the reason someone loses that job vs keeps it. 
 

these things add up over a lifetime. 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Pato del Muerto

[Js1 85313]

22 minutes ago, Homercles said:

Again, why bother?  It’s about three pages of the same argument, and you’re not going to convince him…he will always deflect, reference his personal anecdotal experiences or find some study/math.   
 

Arguing with someone with his head in the sand, who doesn’t want to be convinced or rethink his position. Y’all are wasting your precious weekend minutes having a rock fight with the equivalent of a brick wall 

[Celery Man 20934]

1 hour ago, 52-80 said:

21st century America is a long fucking way from 20th century America.

In a board filled with dumbass takes, this may be the stupidest thing anyone has written.

[52-80 19150]

51 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

We have gone over this before. Your use and understanding of these statistics is questionable. But, assume everything you said is correct. Did it ever occur to you that all of those factors are being similarly effected by the same systemic bias? For instance, what if police are more likely to suspect and arrest a black person vs a white person of a violent crime when faced with similar evidence. In that instance, yes, the reported rates of violent crimes would be increased. The fact that it lines up with the police homicide rate would be evidence of the same bias, not evidence of a lack of bias.

For instance, a black person is more likely to be pulled over than a white person even when controlling for all other factors. Here is one of many studies looking at this: https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/21/us/police-stops-race-stanford-study-trnd/index.html

So, yes, race is a factor you cannot control. And it does have a measurable impact on a person's experience and life outcomes. 

You’re welcomed to challenge the numbers and methodology. Skepticism of it is healthy. When the response is to deny it (“he’ll just throw more numbers at you” lol), or dismissal without refuting it, ill take my numbers over your words any day. 

I dont doubt blacks get pulled over more, or ticketed more over trivial shit.  Without looking into it, ill even wager on your side for it. (I said prejudices still persist). 

But notice I didn’t compare homicide rate to *arrest* rate or *stop* rate or *petty* crimes like theft. I cited specifically violent incidences. With an annual occurrence of 700k in America. (per FBI)

Now tell me, in cases of violent crimes (assault, robbery, homicide), how skewed are race-biases in conviction to throw those numbers off? If I was white and stabbed my neighbor, what are my chances of getting away with it? vs a black person?

Your duty to prove that now. Or not.