will we ever stop requiring a college degree in order to work the majority of good jobs?

[shadow_operative 15932]

i'm just sitting here thinking about how TJ Ford used to always say (before we fired rick barnes) that his post-basketball dream was to get his degree from UT so that he could join Coach Barnes's staff at Texas. as if he's not qualified to be a basketball coach right now, but if he can go get some PE and Science credits from UT, *then* he can be eligible to work that job.

so, so, so many talented and capable people are literally ineligible to work jobs that they could *master* because they didn't go to/finish college, something that millions of fat, drunken, dumbass retards have done for decades and continue to do. are we ever going to stop following this totally illogical practice, and if so, when? 

Edited January 31, 2023 by shadow_operative

[UTGrad98 2273]

You will be seeing Dr Derka today for your stomach pain. On Tuesdays, he does taxes.

[RPM 26321]

I've heard they will accept a diploma from aggy as a substitute for a real diploma.

[Guest]

I have hired/ worked with several folks through the years who have made me ponder how the fuck they ever graduated high school, much less college. 

[CooterBrown 18012]

I have hired/ worked with several folks through the years who have made me ponder how the fuck they ever graduated high school, much less college. 

90% of colleges accept 90%+ of applicants. Most colleges go everything they can to keep you enrolled and cutting tuition checks.

[Pato del Muerto 52499]

6 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

something that millions of fat, drunken, dumbass retards have done for decades and continue to do. are

Since that’s the case, it’s easy to discriminate against those who couldn’t do it. 

[Fondren & Main 6718]

It was not easy to get a Biology degree from Texas.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

“It’s 1AM on a Monday night. I’m lying in bed thinking about Rick Barnes.”

[ClubWhatever 12144]

6 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

are we ever going to stop following this totally illogical practice, and if so, when? 

Is it totally illogical?  Even for a college basketball coach?

[BabaYaga 15298]

It's a hold over from a time past.  Legacy standards.

Take appraisers?  Why do they need a degree?  It's just a barrier to entry along with the 2,000 unpaid hours of apprenticeship IF you can even find someone willing to take you under their wing.

A better question is how many people are actually using their degrees?  

[freyguy 4272]

48 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

90% of colleges accept 90%+ of applicants. Most colleges go everything they can to keep you enrolled and cutting tuition checks.

[KYHorn 17065]

I think everyone agrees there are some careers that absolutely require a degree and even advanced degrees. For those that don't necessarily require one and for which apprenticeship and training are the main sources of learning anyway, a degree is still a very useful proxy for a number of soft and hard skills to help the employer better insure a minimum standard of quality and skills from the employee. We've seen a shift towards not requiring a degree and allowing for training on site, but I think this is most economical only for certain jobs and in tight labor markets. As the labor market loosens, I suspect we'll see a slowing in employers' willingness to take non-degreed candidates.

Edited January 31, 2023 by KYHorn

[TwiceHorn 31475]

1 hour ago, ClubWhatever said:

Is it totally illogical?  Even for a college basketball coach?

Yeah, for some positions, having at least the educational qualification that your subordinates aspire to seems like a logical minimal qualification.

Coaches are still educators to some degree, at least until college sports become something even further removed from what they are today.  So it makes sense that they need a degree.  Seems like many/most acquire a graduate degree as well while they are assistants.

[TwiceHorn 31475]

31 minutes ago, KYHorn said:

I think everyone agrees there are some careers that absolutely require a degree and even advanced degrees. For those that don't necessarily require one and for which apprenticeship and training are the main sources of learning anyway, a degree is still a very useful proxy for a number of soft and hard skills to help the employer better insure a minimum standard of quality and skills from the employee. We've seen a shift towards not requiring a degree and allowing for training on site, but I think this is most economical only for certain jobs and in tight labor markets. As the labor market loosens, I suspect we'll see a slowing in employers' willingness to take non-degreed candidates.

My Dad, who started college before WWII from a family that could barely afford it but to whom education was a priority, and finished on the GI Bill had a perspective on this that I think was informed by his wartime Navy experience and by entering the workforce when degrees weren't ubiquitous but becoming so. 

He said to me, at the very worst, a college degree shows that you can stick with something for a few years and accomplish a longer-term goal, and there's value in that, even if you don't make good grades in a particularly "useful" degree.

[Celery Man 20950]

The illogical thing is that we have basketball's development league attached to institutions of higher learning. All of the other illogic branches from there.

The college degree requirement is a thing that I agree likely does not make sense or is a... stupidly onerous requirement for a lot of jobs that have no intrinsic reason for the requirement. But part of that is because of how onerous the requirement is, and some of how this problem is fixed should address that. At 18, you shouldn't have to choose between taking on a mountain of debt or having most career doors closed to you.

 

1 hour ago, BabaYaga said:

A better question is how many people are actually using their degrees?  

if you don't apply what you learned in college to your life on a daily basis you managed to leave college without getting an education

Edited January 31, 2023 by Celery Man

[crash_davis 23113]

If I'm hiring for something maybe anything, I'd hire a college degreed person over someone who wasn't. Odds of having an unshitty employee will be in my favor. 

Studies have shown a huge difference in earnings potential between the two. That doesn't answer the question if a college diploma is needed to actually do the job. But as long as hiring managers are requiring it, young people should get college diploma.

It's about playing the odds. Life is a long road, you want the odds in your favor as much as possible.

[crash_davis 23113]

2 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

if you don't apply what you learned in college to your life on a daily basis you managed to leave college without getting an education

...an education which applies to your job. There's not doubt that you learned something, or a great many somethings. Whether it's applicable to real world consequences is another question.

[El Tri 412]

7 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

i'm just sitting here thinking about how TJ Ford used to always say (before we fired rick barnes) that his post-basketball dream was to get his degree from UT so that he could join Coach Barnes's staff at Texas. as if he's not qualified to be a basketball coach right now, but if he can go get some PE and Science credits from UT, *then* he can be eligible to work that job.

so, so, so many talented and capable people are literally ineligible to work jobs that they could *master* because they didn't go to/finish college, something that millions of fat, drunken, dumbass retards have done for decades and continue to do. are we ever going to stop following this totally illogical practice, and if so, when? 

the irony of derka calling anyone else fat, dumbass, and the R word

[Nice Guy Eddie 13512]

If I was evaluating a prospect or even a current employee, I imagine their college degree is far behind other criteria. examples include critical or creative thinking, people skills, or drive to see something through completion.

On the last point that college does demonstrate an ability to finish a large endeavor. Now that is an expensive method to demonstrate that endeavor. 

I would like to see more corporations offer apprenticeship types roles in mgmt. Pay that 18-20 year old an ok salary and allow them to get experience that means more than a 4-yr diploma. Of course, that young person runs the risk that they could run into a future employer that still has the degree requirement.

[Celery Man 20950]

3 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

...an education which applies to your job. There's not doubt that you learned something, or a great many somethings. Whether it's applicable to real world consequences is another question.

i was making a comment about education vs occupational training. an education is always applicable to the real world.

[BabaYaga 15298]

3 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

...an education which applies to your job. There's not doubt that you learned something, or a great many somethings. Whether it's applicable to real world consequences is another question.

This

Most learn some basics of time management and operating under a level of pressure.  My point being the direct application of what your field of study was?

Outside of STEM, it seems very few are doing this, al least at the undergrad level.

[aggie08 21504]

Is this the thread where we propagate the myth that most college students are getting degrees in humanities, art history, or basket weaving?

[South Austin 52509]

I mean, why do we even need jobs?

[crash_davis 23113]

Just now, South Austin said:

I mean, why do we even need jobs?

Our fearless leaders want to up the age of SS benefits and Medicare to 70 so we'll not need jobs for even longer.

[DaysOff 7951]

2 minutes ago, South Austin said:

I mean, why do we even need jobs?

brother

[Celery Man 20950]

it's all that avocado toast

[crash_davis 23113]

Just now, DaysOff said:

brother

he can find his own damn job. 

[Helobious 9454]

18 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

 

I would like to see more corporations offer apprenticeship types roles in mgmt. Pay that 18-20 year old an ok salary and allow them to get experience that means more than a 4-yr diploma. Of course, that young person runs the risk that they could run into a future employer that still has the degree requirement.

There’s also that whole thing of no corporation would want to waste money or time training someone that way for that long.

[Guest]

This question opens up a whole bag of worms and there's no easy answer.  Set aside things like engineering/medicine/law where you absolutely need a degree.

For so much of the other stuff, the degree is just a signal to an employer. It's a timesaver. Candidate X was smart enough to get into this school and had the wherewithal to complete the degree requirements. We know he/she is somewhat capable. It makes it much easier to an employer to cull out people to find a qualified candidate.

I think everyone is in agreement as well that more training/apprentice programs would be smart. And that there are lots of people that would be smarter going into the trades route instead of getting a degree from a low-tier school.

Personally, we laugh about A&M becoming a diploma mill, but I also think that as a public university they are actually doing something good for the state in educating more citizens. The exclusivity of colleges is nice when you've graduated, but when it's supposed to be a service to the citizens of the state, it's messed up. I'd bet that many people on this board are smart enough to complete the curriculum at an Ivy, but would never get the opportunity. 

College in general is a bit broken. It shouldn't be so exclusive at a good school. It shouldn't cost so much. It also shouldn't take four years for many degrees. I enjoyed my time in school, but if I'm honest I could have done it faster and saved a lot of time/money.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Helobious said:

There’s also that whole thing of no corporation would want to waste money or time training someone that way for that long.

False.  There’s an expense benefit for the corporation.

[Macanudo 12979]

Look, I didn't spend 5.5 years at UT for nothing.   My underwater basket weaving degree has served me well.

[Smax 3800]

34 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

 

Studies have shown a huge difference in earnings potential between the two.

hmmm wonder why that is....

[BabaYaga 15298]

12 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

I'd bet that many people on this board are smart enough to complete the curriculum at an Ivy, but would never get the opportunity. 

Speak for yourself....

[crash_davis 23113]

4 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Speak for yourself....

[Brisketexan 105142]

51 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

My Dad, who started college before WWII from a family that could barely afford it but to whom education was a priority, and finished on the GI Bill had a perspective on this that I think was informed by his wartime Navy experience and by entering the workforce when degrees weren't ubiquitous but becoming so. 

He said to me, at the very worst, a college degree shows that you can stick with something for a few years and accomplish a longer-term goal, and there's value in that, even if you don't make good grades in a particularly "useful" degree.

This is a very strong point.  It's kind of like how in the military, many troops don't end up using all of the repetitive, hellish shit they do/learn in basic training.  Which is not the point of basic at all -- the point of basic is much more psychological than anything else.  Get you used to working in adverse conditions, get used to being part of a team/unit, and a chain of command, etc.

Shit, one of the most important parts of my UT education was the exposure to systems and bureaucracy that I had to navigate and problem-solve in.  I honestly use those experiences in my current career every day.

So yes, setting aside those professions that clearly need specialized higher ed training, broadly speaking, a college degree is valuable for that reason alone.  But also.....

31 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

i was making a comment about education vs occupational training. an education is always applicable to the real world.

...a whole lot of this.  This shift to thinking of education, including higher ed, as just "job training" is not socially good.  It's bad.  We use buzzwords like "critical thinking" etc., but they are actually really important to making people higher functioning members of the workforce and society.  Understanding basic economic principles, having a deeper understanding of history (both world and US), all of those things make us better citizens and higher functioning in our jobs.  Maybe you're just a widget salesman, but when your sales territory is expanded to a part of the country or world that you've never worked in before, having some context about the local history, culture, and customs, even at a basic level, will help you do your job better.  "I just sell widgets, why do I need to know about the Civil War?"....well, that event is significantly responsible for why your sales pitch in Lickspittle, Alabama needs to be different from your sales pitch in upstate NY.

But backing up a bit....YES, we oversell college degrees, particularly "prestige" degrees.  For the vast majority of people, a degree from someplace like SFA does the job, and does it well.  And YES, we need to make sure that offer ample and good job opportunities for people without a degree (often including more specialized training once they are in the field).  It's important that people have access to good jobs and good life prospects regardless of their educational background.  I just caution against thinking of all college degrees as "does it work as a vocational program or not," because the higher ed experience should provide a whole lot of benefits other than that.

[Beau Vine 54230]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

He said to me, at the very worst, a college degree shows that you can stick with something for a few years and accomplish a longer-term goal, and there's value in that, even if you don't make good grades in a particularly "useful" degree.

There's a famous econ paper from the 50s (?) that says approximately the same thing, using a signaling equilibrium model. 

[statsman 5470]

Some college degrees are very demanding intellectually. Others are very demanding if the goal is to get “A’s”. And others are basically a continuation of high school. (PJ O’ Rourke: “Anyone who doesn’t understand what’s wrong with the schools must never have dated an Education major in college”.)

I’m told that the largest employer of SHSU grads is Alamo Rental Cars. 
 
Decades ago, employers were told they could no longer give intelligence tests to applicants. They opted to use college degrees instead. 

[Beau Vine 54230]

27 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Personally, we laugh about A&M becoming a diploma mill, but I also think that as a public university they are actually doing something good for the state in educating more citizens.

Except for the fact that going back to Perry's Closing the Gaps initiative, we've mistakenly used "college degree" and "college education" as synonyms.

[Pato del Muerto 52499]

And since the vast majority attend college from say 18-24, that’s where most learn a level of independence and responsibility that they hadn’t had yet and will need for the rest of their lives. 

grow up and become an adult, in effect. 
 

some are forced to do that earlier, others can navigate college without doing it.  Those that don’t go to college learn one way or another. 
 

employers would rather take the chance that the college educated person has made that transition, when hiring a young person’s role, so they don’t have to deal with it happening during the first part of their employment. 

[Underdog 28645]

The world needs ditch diggers too. 

[Beau Vine 54230]

38 minutes ago, South Austin said:

I mean, why do we even need jobs?

 

[HamsterHookah 112]

To the OP: there are a lot of jobs in the tech industry where folks don't have college degrees. After a period of time and years of experience, there is a tipping point where your experience is valuable. I've seen people without college degrees but 15+ years of salesforce.com admin experience, for example, get $240k jobs and be product owners for a Fortune 50. The tech world is littered with people like this and not all of them are overtly technical (which is the easiest path to be seen as obviously valuable to an organization without a degree).

That said, the road to that is very painful. Many, many years of being underpaid and doing grunt work and you are paying your dues for not having a degree. It would be far better just to pay a lump sum to a degree mill (online college or directional regional university, etc.) and get a piece of paper and start with a leg up, IMO.

 

[Js1 85338]

My job can be done with a certification but the more successful ones have degrees in liberal arts. Lots of critical thinking, creative writing/solutions, time management type things learned from juggling class work. 

Wouldn’t trade my college experience for anything. Like someone said above, learning how to live on my own, budget my time and money, juggle class/work/clubs/social events. Plus undergrad on the 40 was just fun 

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

I work in a field that was apprenticeship-based until the '60s for the most part. When I was 18 all I really wanted to do was jump right in and start learning first-hand and earning, but instead I had to go college, rack up debts, and take courses like higher math that I was incapable of passing and were entirely, utterly irrelevant to my chosen profession. Because of my feeble math mind, I flunked out of two colleges (UT being one of them) and lost a whole decade of earning and career advancement. Even when I was taking classes that were purported to be in my chosen field, they were often teaching us antiquated and useless bullshit, and taught by people who had failed in the field and so sought refuge as professors. My son has followed in my career path and is currently in school and he describes that the situation with our shared major is exactly the same right now.

Of course you should have to go to college to become a doctor, an engineer, or a chemist, and so on....But I don't think you should have to get an undergrad degree to become an attorney. I think it would be helpful to have some education as you entered law school, but if you can pass the Bar, then you should be allowed to become a lawyer no matter how you came about the skills to do so. 

[KYHorn 17065]

1 hour ago, Celery Man said:

if you don't apply what you learned in college to your life on a daily basis you managed to leave college without getting an education

That's a nice and pithy way to put it. I'm adding it to my final slide for seniors. 

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

When I finally did get a full-time job in my chosen field, I took over from a dude with a Masters from an Ivy. He sucked and was pushed out the door after about two years. My no-degree-ass lasted about eight years and moved up the ladder when I left.

[po elvis 2070]

1 hour ago, El Tri said:

the irony of derka calling anyone else fat, dumbass, and the R word

or the irony of not wanting to write out a word but quoting it, bolding it so everybody will see that word.

[Js1 85338]

Actually the most important thing my liberal arts degree taught me was critical and creative writing because I have to explain very abstract and nebulous concepts to people who are so technically minded (engineers, scientists, doctors), they’re borderline regarded outside of their field and don’t understand much else 

[52-80 19159]

Degrees arent required for many jobs because they guarantee capability.

Degrees are required because they are predictive of capability. 

The world isn’t deterministic. It’s probabilistic. If there’s 100 people applying for an entry level white collar job and half are degreed, I’ll take my chances with that half. It’s a good screening tool. 
 

 

[Your Mom 4806]

“Something else an academic education will do for you. If you go along with it any considerable distance, it’ll begin to give you an idea what size mind you have. What it’ll fit and, maybe, what it won’t. After a while, you’ll have an idea what kind of thoughts your particular size mind should be wearing. For one thing, it may save you an extraordinary amount of time trying on ideas that don’t suit you, aren’t becoming to you. You’ll begin to know your true measurements and dress your mind accordingly.”

- Mr Antolini, the old pervert professor from Catcher In the Rye.