Are games rigged?

[Richard Kimball 1492]

There are comments on the Chiefs-Bengals thread about the officiating. There are also comments on the Conference realignment and left behind threads. 

I'll throw my thoughts out. I don't think it's rigged to the point that professional wrestling is rigged, but yes, leagues guide the narrative. I've seen numerous references to the NFL being legally an "entertainment" league, and being in the same category as wrestling. If this is true, fixing games isn't illegal, as wrestling matches are usually fixed. I haven't found a definitive source on this, simply references to the law passed in 1961 after the NFL lost a Supreme Court anti-trust case in 1957. I haven't found, except on message boards, the claim that the NFL is entertainment, not sports.

The Sports-Media complex has no interest in exposing the darker side of sports. They functionally own the leagues. They protect some players, crucify others, dittos for teams. 

NBA, definitely. It's a star driven league, and finals ratings are greatly influenced by which teams are playing for the title. My "AHA!" moment in the NBA was watching a Lakers game in the 80s. Magic Johnson had five fouls, two minutes left. He hacked an opposing player. The ref blew the whistle and started to point at Johnson, realized who it was, and swerved to put the foul on another Lakers player who was about eight feet away. There were no traveling calls on Jordan, ever. He could start at half court and drive all the way to the basket without dribbling. 

NFL, yeah. Tuck rule game, Saints being allowed to murder Vikings QB Brett Favre in the title game when the league wanted the Saints to win the Super Bowl after Katrina, Steelers never having a call go against them in the 1970s, Earl Morrall throwing three interceptions in the first half of Colts-Jets, when the NFL desperately needed an AFL win for the merger to go through. 

College, yeah, but there are so many entities that it's not a unified narrative like the NBA and NFL. Conferences will put their thumb on the scale for a team that has a chance for the playoffs, cause the conference gets a share of the playoff money. Right now, Texas and Oklahoma won't get a break because the B12 doesn't want them winning the conference on the way out the door. 

Anyway, your thoughts? True fixing, or just losing team sour grapes? We know there are SOME sour grapes, but is there a basis for some of those claims? Remember Tim Donaghy.

[Evil Bill Obrien 3190]

Maybe rigged is too strong a term but the professional leagues are definitely not dumb and there are plenty of examples of things getting nudged in one way or another to the benefit of the league as a whole. Good very recent example thats out there is MLB having a ball that is more easy to hit out of the park than the regular ball everyone else got getting used almost exclusively during Yankees games this past season when Judge was chasing the AL HR record.

[Kennythetiger 9334]

Only against Texas. That’s why when we leave this shithole conference we’re going straight to the top. 

[Doc Daneeka 6769]

One thing I do know is that “sour grapes” doesn’t apply to this situation. It’s not a synonym for whining. 

It depends on what “rigged” means. Some games are absolutely purposefully decided by the officials. The Grant Teaff game is Exhibit A. Did that come from TV, the conference, or was it just a decision from the officials? I don’t know. 

Is there some grand conspiracy with top down control? That’s kind of unwieldy but not impossible. I kind of doubt it, but I could be persuaded otherwise. I think it’s been shown that players get called for more penalties while they’re on the Raiders than before or after. Conspiracy against Al Davis that just persisted? Perception that affects what the officials look for in Raider games? I don’t know. 

If I had to bet, I’d say it’s more likely that some officials favor (or disfavor) some players or even some teams and this plays out at the game level than there’s a “go out and make sure the Saints win” scenario. Having your multi-billion dollar enterprise at substantial risk from one whistleblower seems like disproportionate risk. That doesn’t mean it couldn’t happen. 

[Had Enough 2057]

Any speculation about this weekend is not warranted. Mahomes is a face of the league but so is Burrow. Much of the criticism on calls is pretty weak. Also, what is forgotten was that last year the Bengals got an incredibly weak call (hold on T Boyd on 4th and goal) to help lock up their playoff berth. It was against the Chiefs.

That’s not to say there aren’t certain narratives that the league doesn’t hope play out. I’m quite certain in college they control the narrative otherwise you don’t have conference officials. In 2008 holding was made legal and two teams really took advantage.

I do think the people component is huge. Individual bias impacts things. Angles mean everything. Officials only get one on a given play. Then you have real time versus not only replay but slo mo replay. I’m very critical of officials but have gained some perspective too. There are some calls you shouldn’t miss then there are some that are understandable. Fans have gone to a point in which they’ve lost some understanding and reasonableness. Big 12 2008 was absolute bs.

[Armybrat 40737]

Is this dude behind me Catholic?

 

[Richard Kimball 1492]

2 minutes ago, Doc Daneeka said:

...If I had to bet, I’d say it’s more likely that some officials favor (or disfavor) some players or even some teams and this plays out at the game level than there’s a “go out and make sure the Saints win” scenario. Having your multi-billion dollar enterprise at substantial risk from one whistleblower seems like disproportionate risk. That doesn’t mean it couldn’t happen. 

I've definitely seen that scenario play out in high school and college games. Last week, at a JUCO game, I saw a ref shout at a coach, "You asked for it! You want another one?"

[Helobious 9481]

4 minutes ago, Evil Bill Obrien said:

Maybe rigged is too strong a term but the professional leagues are definitely not dumb and there are plenty of examples of things getting nudged in one way or another to the benefit of the league as a whole. Good very recent example thats out there is MLB having a ball that is more easy to hit out of the park than the regular ball everyone else got getting used almost exclusively during Yankees games this past season when Judge was chasing the AL HR record.

This fucking bullshit again, it’s a terrible example. Judge entered a massive slump and his homer numbers collapsed dramatically as the closer he got to the AL record. He was on pace to easily obliterate it and ended up beating it by 1. The article you idiots keep referring too studied just 200 baseballs and the author himself said it wasn’t a scientific study because the balls weren’t selected at random. 

[Tex Pete 20179]

10 minutes ago, Kennythetiger said:

Only against Texas. That’s why when we leave this shithole conference we’re going straight to the top. 

Don’t be a douche. 

[rungeflash 322]

One of the worst regarding Texas was that big12 title against dirt burglar and the lil ewok. Completely rigged. Fantom PI calls against Horn db’s….johnson and humphrey getting blasted ball mid flight….no call. Horseshit

 

 

[Helobious 9481]

Didn’t we used to make fun of A&M fans for thinking games were rigged against them? 

[utee94 15745]

1 minute ago, Helobious said:

Didn’t we used to make fun of A&M fans for thinking games were rigged against them? 

Nah we make fun of A&M fans because nobody likes them and if calls are going against them, it's well-earned.

['stache 21772]

Only when my teams lose. Dez fucking caught it.

[Vic Mackey 46936]

Absolutely. Wayyyy too much money at stake to leave it to a fair competition on the field. How the fuck does Vegas set these lines that perfectly? I think they are more rigged in that manner, in Vegas with the money and spreads. 

Pro sports always love their storylines and narratives. I mean, we literally had NBA refs rigging games and some people really think that was just some isolated incident. And plenty of people have came out and spoke out about how their games were rigged. 

[Underdog 28455]

No.  Don't believe there's enough evidence to support any and all conspiracies about rigged games... 

BTW, someone with PS skills could probably change that to Chiefs co!ors. 

[HRSchenker 2259]

The NBA is rigged which is why I don't watch it. Football? Maybe. 

[Wally Fairway 5522]

[6th Street 6357]

Conversation should extend to the NBA where you have former refs like Donaghy openly admitting to fixing games. Lakers-Kings, Mavs-Heat, Rockets-Warriors etc.

[Dbeasy 14967]

2 minutes ago, 6th Street said:

Conversation should extend to the NBA where you have former refs like Donaghy openly admitting to fixing games. Lakers-Kings, Mavs-Heat, Rockets-Warriors etc.

This. That story proved there was substantial rigging by individuals and institutions.  

I’m not a conspiracy theory guy, but there’s no question in my mind that a ton of games in every sport are manipulated, mostly for financial gain.  

[Evil Bill Obrien 3190]

17 minutes ago, Helobious said:

This fucking bullshit again, it’s a terrible example. Judge entered a massive slump and his homer numbers collapsed dramatically as the closer he got to the AL record. He was on pace to easily obliterate it and ended up beating it by 1. The article you idiots keep referring too studied just 200 baseballs and the author himself said it wasn’t a scientific study because the balls weren’t selected at random. 

If we are going to do article read off, it also says multiple league sources confirmed that MLB knows and directs where all of the balls are sent to, and leads some credence to the theory that they made sure they sent the so called "goldilocks" balls to NYY games down the stretch so that even if Judge sucked like he did, could have the best possible chance to break the record.

[South Austin 52144]

I don't buy into conspiracys enough to opine that sports are rigged.  But referees in basketball and football have a wide zone of discretion to make calls, from holding and pass interference in football to fouls in basketball where there's inherently so much physical contact in that sport.  And they're human beings -- even without anything personal at stake or an axe to grind in a particular game, they can get caught up in the emotion or, whether they consciously think about this or not, could be pulling for one team or a player in any given game. 

Edited February 1, 2023 by South Austin

[Dbeasy 14967]

If you don’t believe there is purposeful rigging of games, read Donaghy’s book. While it is self serving and not totally accurate, there are compelling stats that demonstrate something funny has been going on in the NBA for years.

For example, the percentage of referees hired from one small area in Pennsylvania known for mob activities. 

[Helobious 9481]

2 minutes ago, Evil Bill Obrien said:

If we are going to do article read off, it also says multiple league sources confirmed that MLB knows and directs where all of the balls are sent to, and leads some credence to the theory that they made sure they sent the so called "goldilocks" balls to NYY games down the stretch so that even if Judge sucked like he did, could have the best possible chance to break the record.

There’s no empirical evidence the Yankees were getting those balls more than anyone else. None. The author of the study said so himself. But maybe you could cry about it more, that might make it come true. 

[Al_4_ISU 12409]

I think individual refs have gone rogue and have used their power to change the outcome of a game to satisfy their bias, and obviously there was the NBA ref who was busted for fixing games.  I have no doubt that individuals have flexed their power to get specific outcomes.  You guys talk about Grant Teaff's last game a lot, and I was too young to care when that happened, but we got that treatment in 2017 against Kansas State in what many were speculating was Bill Snyder's last game.  There were 3 clear pass interference calls in the second half, including one that would have given ISU a first down and ended the game, where one ref called the penalty and threw the flag, but then the head official convened the group and picked the flag up.  I think that official wanted Snyder's last game in Manhattan to be a win.  Send a legend out in style (Teaff game redux).  I don't think the Big 12 instructed him to do it.

I don't believe that there's a top down conspiracy among leagues - be they pro or collegiate conferences - to render a specific outcome in the way that pro wrestling is essentially live theatre.

Sports are so fucking popular because they're the one thing in our entertainment world that isn't scripted.  If it came out that they were, they would be far less interesting and therefore less profitable.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Al_4_ISU

[Tex Pete 20179]

I agree with you. Not sure what happens in the Big 12, but it certainly feels like the officials put their thumbs on the scale of games frequently.

We have benefitted, but we seem to get the short end of the stick more often than not, when in doubt. 

[South Austin 52144]

4 minutes ago, Tex Pete said:

We have benefitted

Someone would agree with you.

[TornACL 7675]

The NFL is definitely rigged y'all. Years of ratings data show that no one would watch the Super Bowl if the wrong teams made it to the big game.

Y'all are out of your God damn minds.

The NFL could air a preseason flag football game between Houston and Arizona at 530am and millions of people would tune in, because the country is addicted to this sport. 

[Pam Cummings 9579]

Even if it is rigged, what are you gonna do. Stop watching? You'll huff and you'll puff, but you're never blowing that house down.

[Al_4_ISU 12409]

8 minutes ago, Tex Pete said:

I agree with you. Not sure what happens in the Big 12, but it certainly feels like the officials put their thumbs on the scale of games frequently.

We have benefitted, but we seem to get the short end of the stick more often than not, when in doubt. 

My friends who are fans of teams in other conferences bitch endlessly about their refs too.  It does feel like the Big 12 is worse, but it's what we've all paid attention to more than anything else.

Basketball's a great example.  I think the majority of the awful calls I've complained about going against ISU were in basketball.  There are no conference crews in basketball, but yet I know I've cursed the Big 12 for hardwood atrocities.

[Pescado_Rojo 19331]

1 minute ago, TornACL said:

The NFL is definitely rigged y'all. Years of ratings data show that no one would watch the Super Bowl if the wrong teams made it to the big game.

Y'all are out of your God damn minds.

The NFL could air a preseason flag football game between Houston and Arizona at 530am and millions of people would tune in, because the country is addicted to gambling on this sport. 

FIFY

In addition to all the things mentioned, I think another issue is the game has gotten too fast for the 40/50/60 year old men that have accrued enough experience to make it to D1 or NFL football. They simply don't have the speed to get themselves into position to make a good call, so they make it from 10 yards or more behind the play, or from the other side of the field. 

[TexasGary 833]

 

[Vic Mackey 46936]

34 minutes ago, 6th Street said:

Conversation should extend to the NBA where you have former refs like Donaghy openly admitting to fixing games. Lakers-Kings, Mavs-Heat, Rockets-Warriors etc.

2002 Kings-Lakers and 2006 Mavs-Heat was some of the most blatant rigging on the big stage (playoffs) I can remember. 2002 Kings-Lakers was the first time it came to me this shit is fixed as hell. Game 6 in particular.

2006 Mavs-Heat where Wade would outshoot the rest of the Mavs at the line. The calls he got were ridiculous. I truly believe the league hated Cuban at that time with a passion. This is when both sides had big pissing matches and he would call them out, get fined and he would pay the fine and match the fine to a charity of his choice as a fuck you to the league that their fines wouldn't stop him. He was vocal as hell about the ref b.s. since he took over as owner.  Also, Stackhouse got suspended for Game 5 for lightly tapping Shaq from behind in a fast break in Game 4. Even Shaq joked about he's been hit harder by women than that. That shit didn't warrant a suspension at all. Stackhouse was very important to that team. 

For the NFL, some of the biggest fuckery I have seen on the big stage was the 2005 season Super Bowl of Pitt-Sea. That was some ridiculous. You had many storylines at play. Bettis in his final season. Going home to Detroit to win a ring. Seattle got fucked in many key moments and they weren't even hiding it. I think Seattle called out the league in the days following. 

[Beau Vine 54001]

40 minutes ago, 6th Street said:

Conversation should extend to the NBA where you have former refs like Donaghy openly admitting to fixing games. Lakers-Kings, Mavs-Heat, Rockets-Warriors etc.

I actually quit watching the NBA for years because I thought it was so clear that it was dirty.  The Donaghy situation getting blown up was the best thing that could have happened to the NBA.  I'm not going to say that it was "rigged," because I don't think the NBA commish (or whoever) was sending orders to the refs, but I do think that it's pretty clear that the NBA was assigning important games to refs who were dirty (Dick Bavetta, Bennett Salvatore, Jess Kersey, etc.), and now that those guys are gone, the officiating has become dramatically better somehow.

[ChiTownDoc 21101]

1 hour ago, Richard Kimball said:

There are comments on the Chiefs-Bengals thread about the officiating. There are also comments on the Conference realignment and left behind threads. 

I'll throw my thoughts out. I don't think it's rigged to the point that professional wrestling is rigged, but yes, leagues guide the narrative. I've seen numerous references to the NFL being legally an "entertainment" league, and being in the same category as wrestling. If this is true, fixing games isn't illegal, as wrestling matches are usually fixed. I haven't found a definitive source on this, simply references to the law passed in 1961 after the NFL lost a Supreme Court anti-trust case in 1957. I haven't found, except on message boards, the claim that the NFL is entertainment, not sports.

The Sports-Media complex has no interest in exposing the darker side of sports. They functionally own the leagues. They protect some players, crucify others, dittos for teams. 

NBA, definitely. It's a star driven league, and finals ratings are greatly influenced by which teams are playing for the title. My "AHA!" moment in the NBA was watching a Lakers game in the 80s. Magic Johnson had five fouls, two minutes left. He hacked an opposing player. The ref blew the whistle and started to point at Johnson, realized who it was, and swerved to put the foul on another Lakers player who was about eight feet away. There were no traveling calls on Jordan, ever. He could start at half court and drive all the way to the basket without dribbling. 

NFL, yeah. Tuck rule game, Saints being allowed to murder Vikings QB Brett Favre in the title game when the league wanted the Saints to win the Super Bowl after Katrina, Steelers never having a call go against them in the 1970s, Earl Morrall throwing three interceptions in the first half of Colts-Jets, when the NFL desperately needed an AFL win for the merger to go through. 

College, yeah, but there are so many entities that it's not a unified narrative like the NBA and NFL. Conferences will put their thumb on the scale for a team that has a chance for the playoffs, cause the conference gets a share of the playoff money. Right now, Texas and Oklahoma won't get a break because the B12 doesn't want them winning the conference on the way out the door. 

Anyway, your thoughts? True fixing, or just losing team sour grapes? We know there are SOME sour grapes, but is there a basis for some of those claims? Remember Tim Donaghy.

LMAO at the NFL being classified as entertainment by some underground cabal so they can legally rig games.  You’d see Goodell and every billionaire owner in on it convicted and sentenced to jail and it would be open and shut.  
Are there one offs like Tim Donaghy?  Other refs too I’d say…Absolutely.  Maybe a couple of lower end players too.  Likely more players in the past when they weren’t signing 100M contracts.  But rigged at the highest levels of the league?  Hilarious.    

[SHOOTER12 8789]

33 minutes ago, South Austin said:

Someone would agree with you.

Well he definitely doesn't need anyone putting their thumb on on the scale...

[Pokoloco 1271]

if it were rigged you'd think the Lions or Browns would get the nod at some point.  It would be the feel good story of the century.

[Magus Ossis 2784]

People do dishonest or unfair things for monetary gain, and they do it for power, and they do it for pleasure. People give in to their biases deliberately, and they succumb to them unintentionally. To suppose that the above does not apply to sports officials, that refs are somehow superhuman, would be comical. Most officials are doing their best on most games. That leaves a lot of room for exceptions, however.

[Evil Bill Obrien 3190]

1 hour ago, Helobious said:

There’s no empirical evidence the Yankees were getting those balls more than anyone else. None. The author of the study said so himself. But maybe you could cry about it more, that might make it come true. 

Just like the "Altuve was wearing a buzzer/vibrating bug plug" allegations coming out of Yankee land since 2019 then? Though the more I think about everything if MLB were "rigged" Yankees probably would have won a few more than 27 World Series rings and at least 1 since 2009... right?
 

[Kennythetiger 9334]

1 hour ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

FIFY

In addition to all the things mentioned, I think another issue is the game has gotten too fast for the 40/50/60 year old men that have accrued enough experience to make it to D1 or NFL football. They simply don't have the speed to get themselves into position to make a good call, so they make it from 10 yards or more behind the play, or from the other side of the field. 

I’d have to make my calls from watching the Jumbotron. 

[Pdawg88 1110]

[Helobious 9481]

26 minutes ago, Evil Bill Obrien said:

Just like the "Altuve was wearing a buzzer/vibrating bug plug" allegations coming out of Yankee land since 2019 then? Though the more I think about everything if MLB were "rigged" Yankees probably would have won a few more than 27 World Series rings and at least 1 since 2009... right?
 

Also your theory is entirely blown up by the fact that last year Judge led the entire MLB in called strikes on pitches out of the strike zone… AGAIN. If they really wanted him to get the record don’t you think that’d be the easiest way? Tell the umps to give him a really tight zone? That’s kind of the mail in the coffin on all you astro fans conspiracy theory about the chase.

[Tex Pete 20179]

1 hour ago, Al_4_ISU said:

My friends who are fans of teams in other conferences bitch endlessly about their refs too.  It does feel like the Big 12 is worse, but it's what we've all paid attention to more than anything else.

If it were a call here or there, I might believe other conferences’ officiating was just as bad. That isn’t the case.
 

We’ve been totally railroaded in quite a few games, games we never had a fair opportunity to win. Don’t know why or who made the call, but that’s the case. And the Big 12 just told us to live with it. 

[RDCanecutter 26267]

2 hours ago, Helobious said:

Didn’t we used to make fun of A&M fans for thinking games were rigged against them? 

Rigging seems to be a favorite theory of LSU fans. As if any place in the country could out-corrupt Louisiana.

[hookem48 4631]

Of course not but it's fun to say they are sometimes. 

[PilotsError 2282]

The easiest way to rig is to know the tendencies of refs and assign them accordingly.  The ref may not even know what's going on.  I believe one hundred percent that was  regular occurrence under David Stern.  

[cmontexas 3253]

If youre an NFL ref you are most likely a football fan. And it you're a football fan, you are either a Cowboys fan or you hate the fucking Cowboys. And they don't let Cowboy fans ref Cowboy games

[Valmy77 13094]

I know the games of my team are rigged by the incompetence of the owner. 

5 minutes ago, cmontexas said:

If youre an NFL ref you are most likely a football fan. And it you're a football fan, you are either a Cowboys fan or you hate the fucking Cowboys. And they don't let Cowboy fans ref Cowboy games

Really? Do New York Jets fans give a shit about the Cowboys? They have such a burning hatred for so many teams, including the Jets. How much hatred can exist in the hearts of one fanbase?

[Al_4_ISU 12409]

I'm a Vikings fan and don't really care about the Cowboys much either way.  I hated them in 1996, sure.  But that was because it seemed like they always won.  Now that they haven't won anything in nearly 30 years, it's hard to hate them.

[Valmy77 13094]

Seriously though I don't think there is any systematic rigging of the games because if there was and it got out the economic damage to the league would be severe and the NFL mostly just cares about itself at the expense of everybody and everything else. 

But I think the human element of the referees plays a big role. We benefited from that in a big way when Mack Brown was every ref's friend. Now after pissing off the conference and having assholes like Tom Herman be our head coach the refs no longer like us. I don't think the powers that be are demanding Texas get fucked, I just think some referees want Texas to get fucked or they love their buddy Gundy. That kind of thing.

[Texasrocks 2124]

3 hours ago, Richard Kimball said:

I don't think it's rigged to the point that professional wrestling is rigged, but yes, leagues guide the narrative.