Are games rigged?

[closetohumping 17,458]

Do I think there's like a unilateral mandate to fix games in any of the major sports?  Not really.  Do I think there's been personal bias or incompetence in officiating?  Yes.

 

Do I think there have been moments where a league hq has hinted to the refs who they think should win?  I do.  I also think some of the NBA lotteries were rigged at some point.

[CurlyDumps 4,478]

This thread is the mirror.

 

[bullet 1,597]

2 hours ago, Porterhouse said:

I didn’t read all of your post. No, it’s not close to rigged. The posters in the KC thread were ridiculed. I look forward to your next initiated thread. You should title it “Am I Retarded?”

And some of the ones who ridiculed them were ridiculed.  Its called Surly for a reason!

[PilotsError 2,317]

People who refuse to believe there’s even a tiny amount of influence from the leagues probably believe Oswald acted alone.  Not much we can do. 

[Brew 3,049]

I’m always entertained by these conspiracies around sports, politics, the news, etc. In this look at me era we live in, I’m sure everyone is keeping it quiet these top down directives. That is a perfectly plausible explanation that seems totally legit.

I’m sure refs let things impact their calls, I’m sure the games have gotten too fast for most of them, I’m sure the availability of any angle replay has made their jobs impossible, but the leagues being rigged narrative is stupid. It’s also dumb as hell in game threads. Maybe it’s your bias that drives the narrative in your head.

[59 Burst 434]

9 hours ago, closetohumping said:

Do I think there's like a unilateral mandate to fix games in any of the major sports?  Not really.  Do I think there's been personal bias or incompetence in officiating?  Yes.

 

Do I think there have been moments where a league hq has hinted to the refs who they think should win?  I do.  I also think some of the NBA lotteries were rigged at some point.

I agree. Having their fingers on the scales is one thing. Outright manipulation of the results? No fucking way.
 

The big money gambling industrial complex would shit on that in a second ala’ Hot Rod Williams.

[Evil Bill Obrien 3,293]

18 hours ago, Helobious said:

Also your theory is entirely blown up by the fact that last year Judge led the entire MLB in called strikes on pitches out of the strike zone… AGAIN. If they really wanted him to get the record don’t you think that’d be the easiest way? Tell the umps to give him a really tight zone? That’s kind of the mail in the coffin on all you astro fans conspiracy theory about the chase.

So MLB has been stealing mail too??

[Juicy 727]

18 hours ago, cmontexas said:

If youre an NFL ref you are most likely a football fan. And it you're a football fan, you are either a Cowboys fan or you hate the fucking Cowboys. And they don't let Cowboy fans ref Cowboy games

Yeah Cowboys never get the calls..... Definitely didn't get the call after the lions when they got called for PI late in the 4th with the lions driving, moved the chains, and then the officials came back and said they were picking up the flag.... GTFOH

 

[Nueces River Rat 5,539]

52 minutes ago, 59 Burst said:

I agree. Having their fingers on the scales is one thing. Outright manipulation of the results? No fucking way.
 

The big money gambling industrial complex would shit on that in a second ala’ Hot Rod Williams.

The big money gambling industrial complex is now in bed with the leagues (the four major pro leagues) .  It was taboo once upon a time to the point the leagues wouldn't even entertain establishing a franchise in Vegas.    If big money gambling  is not in bed with the leagues, then they are certainly in bed with the media who wants ratings witnessed by the ad money they spend on the sports networks.

[Guest]

18 hours ago, Valmy77 said:

I know the games of my team are rigged by the incompetence of the owner. 

Really? Do New York Jets fans give a shit about the Cowboys? They have such a burning hatred for so many teams, including the Jets. How much hatred can exist in the hearts of one fanbase?

What hearts?

[Vic Mackey 47,131]

I agree. Having their fingers on the scales is one thing. Outright manipulation of the results? No fucking way.
 
The big money gambling industrial complex would shit on that in a second ala’ Hot Rod Williams.

Wait, you think the gambling industry is separate from these leagues in terms of manipulating results? Bless your heart.

[Underdog 28,767]

LOL. Some fanbase(s) get a bit carried away with Ref conspiracies, case in point... 

http://www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/Statistics/officials.html

[Richard Kimball 1,496]

51 minutes ago, 59 Burst said:

I agree. Having their fingers on the scales is one thing. Outright manipulation of the results? No fucking way.
 

The big money gambling industrial complex would shit on that in a second ala’ Hot Rod Williams.

The founding families of the NFL WERE the big money gambling complex. Art Rooney and Tim Mara were bookmakers. Rooney also ran slots, while Mara was involved in horse racing. George Halas and Bill Bidwell (Bears and Cardinals) were financed by the Chicago mob. Carroll Rosenbloom (Colts, later Rams) was casinos, as was the DeBartolo family (49ers,) who also used to own horse racing interests. In the 1990s, Eddie DeBartolo Jr. had to divest from the 49ers after he got caught bribing Louisiana officials $400,000 for a riverboat gambling license. 

[Nueces River Rat 5,539]

30 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

1 hour ago, 59 Burst said:

I agree. Having their fingers on the scales is one thing. Outright manipulation of the results? No fucking way.
 
The big money gambling industrial complex would shit on that in a second ala’ Hot Rod Williams.

Wait, you think the gambling industry is separate from these leagues in terms of manipulating results? Bless your heart.

He missed the NBA Ref scandals.   

[VirginiaLonghorn 4,781]

17 hours ago, Nicole44 said:

… with a hint of …

[Kennythetiger 9,434]

1 hour ago, Evil Bill Obrien said:

So MLB has been stealing mail too??

When you control the mail, you control information. 

[Beau Vine 54,381]

14 hours ago, Dbeasy said:

So many posters here aggressively arguing that systemic rigging is impossible. I get it. It seems unfathomable.

But the NBA scandal shined a light on how it all works. There isn’t some Illuminati committee in a league office plotting out moves. Of course that is very unlikely and silly.  

What happens are tiny little decisions and moves that all add up to pushing results a certain direction.

For example, Donaghy talked about the fact that the refs who demonstrated a record for calling a game in a way so that the “right” team won would get more playoff assignments.

So Stern doesn’t go tell a ref to throw the game. He lines up a crew that gets more pay, more assignments, and more notoriety in exchange for making those tiny little calls that help push a result in a certain direction.

This is just one example of the many ways it’s rigged. And then there is the organized crime systemic rigging, which is probably a much bigger game. 

Simmons' theory was that when the NBA wanted the home team to win, they'd assign their worst refs to work the game.  The worst refs are the ones who would be more likely to be influenced by the home crowd and not make calls that benefitted the road team.  See also Salvatore, Bennett.

[n64ra 1,087]

23 hours ago, Evil Bill Obrien said:

Maybe rigged is too strong a term but the professional leagues are definitely not dumb and there are plenty of examples of things getting nudged in one way or another to the benefit of the league as a whole. Good very recent example thats out there is MLB having a ball that is more easy to hit out of the park than the regular ball everyone else got getting used almost exclusively during Yankees games this past season when Judge was chasing the AL HR record.

First reply and that's all we need! Leagues are there to make money and will set things in an attempt to get more of said money. The only caveat is don't make it so obviously that fans turn away or the government starts investigating. With the Aaron Judge example, give him easier to hit baseballs, but don't force the Astros to lose a series to advance Judge through the playoffs. 'Stros were just much better than the Yankees for meddling to be successful. It would have had to been flat out obvious rule changes/ignores for the Yanks to win the '22 ALCS.

[Valmy77 13,270]

3 hours ago, Vic Mackey said:

4 hours ago, 59 Burst said:

I agree. Having their fingers on the scales is one thing. Outright manipulation of the results? No fucking way.
 
The big money gambling industrial complex would shit on that in a second ala’ Hot Rod Williams.

Wait, you think the gambling industry is separate from these leagues in terms of manipulating results? Bless your heart.

The gambling industry has no need to do that. They don't need to manipulate the games to make money. Now individual gamblers? That's something else.

[CurlyDumps 4,478]

15 hours ago, Dbeasy said:

So many posters here aggressively arguing that systemic rigging is impossible. I get it. It seems unfathomable.

But the NBA scandal shined a light on how it all works. There isn’t some Illuminati committee in a league office plotting out moves. Of course that is very unlikely and silly.  

What happens are tiny little decisions and moves that all add up to pushing results a certain direction.

For example, Donaghy talked about the fact that the refs who demonstrated a record for calling a game in a way so that the “right” team won would get more playoff assignments.

So Stern doesn’t go tell a ref to throw the game. He lines up a crew that gets more pay, more assignments, and more notoriety in exchange for making those tiny little calls that help push a result in a certain direction.

This is just one example of the many ways it’s rigged. And then there is the organized crime systemic rigging, which is probably a much bigger game. 

Donaghy is a piece of shit and a patholigcal liar doing the "woe is me" victim routine that every unrepentant criminal has enacted since the dawn of time in an attempt to avoid punishment. "It wasn't me! I was set up/coerced/scapegoated/persecuted! What about them over there? They're guiltier than me! I'm not the guy you want! I'm innocent! Waaah! Unfair!"

There is zero actual evidence corroborating his tall tales. He told a bunch of stories to the FBI, too, in a desperate, pathetic attempt to minimize his punishment. They investigated his claims and found nothing.

[CurlyDumps 4,478]

Too late to edit. Bill Simmons did an interview with this guy Sean Patrick Griffin debunking Donaghy and the farce Netflix "documentary."

 

 

Edited February 2, 2023 by CurlyDumps

[redswingline 1,061]

On 2/1/2023 at 10:50 AM, Richard Kimball said:

I'll throw my thoughts out. I don't think it's rigged to the point that professional wrestling is rigged, but yes, leagues guide the narrative. I

I don't think of "Pro" wrestling as being rigged because it isn't a real sport. It's entire premise is entertainment run by a predetermined narrative.

The NBA is / was the shadiest out of all of the leagues. The league office told refs which players and teams to favor, to create the best possible TV ratings for playoff matchups. Not sure if they still do it because i stopped watching it, but it was run that way with Stern Shady.

Not sure if the NFL does that - but it is possible.

The way I see it there are 3 types of bad calls.  outright missed, some are missed on purpose (ref bias or shady ref) and some are instructions that come from the top.

Edited February 2, 2023 by redswingline

[Dbeasy 15,084]

2 hours ago, CurlyDumps said:

Donaghy is a piece of shit and a patholigcal liar doing the "woe is me" victim routine that every unrepentant criminal has enacted since the dawn of time in an attempt to avoid punishment. "It wasn't me! I was set up/coerced/scapegoated/persecuted! What about them over there? They're guiltier than me! I'm not the guy you want! I'm innocent! Waaah! Unfair!"

There is zero actual evidence corroborating his tall tales. He told a bunch of stories to the FBI, too, in a desperate, pathetic attempt to minimize his punishment. They investigated his claims and found nothing.

Yes he is a piece of shit and a liar as I said at the beginning, but your statement that it was thoroughly investigated with nothing found are laughable in its naïveté.

It’s amazing to see so many people plug their ears and shut their eyes because they can’t fathom that sports maybe don’t have the level of integrity they thought. Newsflash. The world is corrupt. 

[formermav43 4,606]

[Nueces River Rat 5,539]

39 minutes ago, redswingline said:

I don't think of "Pro" wrestling as being rigged because it isn't a real sport. It's entire premise is entertainment run by a predetermined narrative.

The NBA is / was the shadiest out of all of the leagues. The league office told refs which players and teams to favor, to create the best possible TV ratings for playoff matchups. Not sure if they still do it because i stopped watching it, but it was run that way with Stern Shady.

Not sure if the NFL does that - but it is possible.

The way I see it there are 3 types of bad calls.  outright missed, some are missed on purpose (ref bias or shady ref) and some are instructions that come from the top.

Yep.   The NBA kind of let it know back in the 90's when the Spurs started their dynasty it wasn't too happy as it started taking the Lakers and their TV market out of the playoffs/championships.   Some funny crap started happening in the NBA Western Conference finals between the Spurs an Lakers  in the 2000s that finally made me give up watching the NBA.  

[qwertyu1234 496]

FWIW Tim Donaghy is a known chronic liar.

Edit, Curly already mentions it.

Edited February 2, 2023 by qwertyu1234

[Nivek 16,979]

1 hour ago, qwertyu1234 said:

FWIW Tim Donaghy is a known chronic liar.

Edit, Curly already mentions it.

Who hired the known chronic liar?  

[Guadaloopy 11,012]

Home field advantage is a real thing.  Economists have studied it to try and determine the reason(s) behind HFA.  Turns out that the single most important factor contributing to HFA is referee bias.  It's not referee bias because they dislike one team more than the other.  Turns out that referees have a very human tendency to make calls that are least likely to enrage a heavily partisan crowd.  I highly recommend the book "Scorecasting" as it dives deeply into this issue.  It's Freakonomics for sports fans and it is a great read.

Here's an article that discusses the findings about HFA:

https://www.chicagobooth.edu/review/home-field-advantage-facts-and-fiction

[Bullneck 19,201]

 

[SHOOTER12 8,819]

9 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

Simmons' theory was that when the NBA wanted the home team to win, they'd assign their worst refs to work the game.  The worst refs are the ones who would be more likely to be influenced by the home crowd and not make calls that benefitted the road team.  See also Salvatore, Bennett.

Makes sense...

[CurlyDumps 4,478]

5 hours ago, Dbeasy said:

Yes he is a piece of shit and a liar as I said at the beginning, but your statement that it was thoroughly investigated with nothing found are laughable in its naïveté.

It’s amazing to see so many people plug their ears and shut their eyes because they can’t fathom that sports maybe don’t have the level of integrity they thought. Newsflash. The world is corrupt. 

 

lol at this confirmation bias. "Yeah Donaghy's a piece of shit and liar, buuut I choose to believe this one incredible thing he said about evil David Stern rigging games cuz the world is corrupt."

Also lol at the notion that I'm naive or ignorant because I require more than the word of a pathetic disgraced criminal to believe in a league wide game fixing conspiracy that goes all the way to the top, maaan! Your cynical worldview doesn't prove that David Stern rigged games.

 

[lilMAC25 3,807]

On 2/1/2023 at 2:11 PM, Valmy77 said:

Seriously though I don't think there is any systematic rigging of the games because if there was and it got out the economic damage to the league would be severe and the NFL mostly just cares about itself at the expense of everybody and everything else. 

But I think the human element of the referees plays a big role. We benefited from that in a big way when Mack Brown was every ref's friend. Now after pissing off the conference and having assholes like Tom Herman be our head coach the refs no longer like us. I don't think the powers that be are demanding Texas get fucked, I just think some referees want Texas to get fucked or they love their buddy Gundy. That kind of thing.

Then explain the OSU Game and Charlie?

 

(hint, it didn’t start with Strong)

[Nueces River Rat 5,539]

22 minutes ago, lilMAC25 said:

Then explain the OSU Game and Charlie?

 

(hint, it didn’t start with Strong)

Mack was good at getting in the Refs ears early if he saw some screwy stuff about to go down. Or if he had experience with a particular crew or individual members of a particular crew, he’d start riding them with a really insignificant call and build from there.    
 

It’s kind of an art and I think the coach at least in the Big 12 who does a good job of this right now is Sonny Dykes.  Charlie and Tom had many opportunities to go ape on the Refs during their tenures, but just stood there and allowed their teams to take it.   And unfortunately Sark to date has done the same.   I don’t know.   It might be a generational thing or something?    I think you earn respect from your fan base and players if you show some indignation once in awhile and last years game against Okie State was an opportunity missed by Sark. 

[956 Worldwide 34,746]

None of the big leagues or NCAA is rigged, come on. This kind of conspiracy can’t be implemented without lots of people knowing, without lots of proof, and lots of really important people getting pissed off.  The potential reward for breaking the news would be immense. The criminal and civil penalties against the organizers would be life-ending. And it’s would be especially dumb because it would kill the golden goose these guys already have. 
 

 

[WinningIsHard 4,079]

But for reasons that were not immediately clear, it was not employed in this case. L O L 

[BabaYaga 15,305]

Please.  Saying the entire league or NCAA is "rigged" is intentional hyperbole.  Conferences act in their own best interest and have had biases going back decades toward certain teams.

Anyone remember when Nebraska announced they were leaving the conference?  The conference gave them a nice send-off when they played A&M in CS that was so blatantly slanted against them even the ags were laughing about the "home cooking"

It doesn't take a grand conspiracy in tight games.  In basketball you can call a foul on virtually every play.  Same with holding across the lines in football.  Both full contact games with built in calls dedicated to contact.  All you have to do is call a tighter game on one team or the other and you can tip the scales.  It's fucking easy.  

Texas started out the season getting fucked.  No call after no call that all went AL's way and cost Texas the game.  Then the OSU game.  The holding no-calls vs. the TCU game.  It was all season.

[TreatyOak 16,413]

"The league is definitely rigged against us. All of the officials, the heads of the league,  and especially the media are extremely biased against us." 

Every fanbase every day

 

 

  

Edited February 3, 2023 by TreatyOak

[956 Worldwide 34,746]

The combined performances of the Yankees, Knicks, and Cowboys for the past several decades are the best argument against “the leagues are manipulating the results.” 

[59 Burst 434]

On 2/2/2023 at 9:44 AM, Vic Mackey said:

On 2/2/2023 at 8:21 AM, 59 Burst said:

I agree. Having their fingers on the scales is one thing. Outright manipulation of the results? No fucking way.
 
The big money gambling industrial complex would shit on that in a second ala’ Hot Rod Williams.

Wait, you think the gambling industry is separate from these leagues in terms of manipulating results? Bless your heart.

 I’m just saying the powers that be who financially benefit from a clean game would protect their interests. 

[Make em eat Taco Bell 1,549]

all games in every sport at every level are rigged /Surly

[bullet 1,597]

On 2/2/2023 at 4:07 PM, Dbeasy said:

Yes he is a piece of shit and a liar as I said at the beginning, but your statement that it was thoroughly investigated with nothing found are laughable in its naïveté.

It’s amazing to see so many people plug their ears and shut their eyes because they can’t fathom that sports maybe don’t have the level of integrity they thought. Newsflash. The world is corrupt. 

The investigator figured telling Stern was a mistake.  It leaked that he was going to wear a wire to get more people.  So Stern's office killed the possibility that his story of more corrupt refs might be proven.

[Nivek 16,979]

Mack was good at getting in the Refs ears early if he saw some screwy stuff about to go down. Or if he had experience with a particular crew or individual members of a particular crew, he’d start riding them with a really insignificant call and build from there.    
 
It’s kind of an art and I think the coach at least in the Big 12 who does a good job of this right now is Sonny Dykes.  Charlie and Tom had many opportunities to go ape on the Refs during their tenures, but just stood there and allowed their teams to take it.   And unfortunately Sark to date has done the same.   I don’t know.   It might be a generational thing or something?    I think you earn respect from your fan base and players if you show some indignation once in awhile and last years game against Okie State was an opportunity missed by Sark. 

Given what I saw, Charlie had zero room to complain or talk to the refs.

[Sgt Hulk 13,833]

Wasn’t there like 12 weeks where the cowboys opponents didn’t have a hood called against them playing against Dallas. 

[SilasCoade 2,622]

On 2/1/2023 at 11:07 AM, longhornmatt said:

I could buy David Stern era NBA being rigged on some level.  It wasn’t actually a very profitable business until they promoted individual stars like Magic and Jordan.   It wasn’t nearly as popular as football or baseball, or like the NBA is today.  And then business went bad again after Jordan retired for awhile. I could see the people in charge of that league during all of those years thinking they needed to rig things just a certain way to make the big money, and they might have been right.

The NBA draft lottery system itself is a kind of novel way to potentially rig certain outcomes under the guise of discouraging tanking (lots of allegations that the whole point of it initially was just to get Patrick Ewing to New York). The promotion and protection of star players both during games and in their images for marketing, Jordan’s bizarre baseball retirement amid rumors of prolific gambling, all the questionable series like Lakers-Blazers, Lakers-Kings, Mavs-Heat, Tim Donaghy getting convicted and basically laying it all out there … there is a ton of smoke in that league over many years.  

They make so much money in more recent years from the TV deals that they probably wouldn’t take the risk now.  But in 1983?  Or 2000?  Yeah, they may have needed some juice.

The Pelicans getting all the ping pong balls to draft Zion after giving up AD to the league's money maker has always made me suspicious that the draft lottery is rigged, at least when they want it to be.

And somebody said the refs in the NBA have gotten better? Uhh, no fucking way. They continue to be arbitrary and inconsistent and at times just outright incompetent. There is one female ref in particular who makes me just turn a game off if she's working it. (And not because of that, she could get it actually.)

[BevoAbyss 2,078]

"Conspiracy theory is the poor man's cognitive map." Fredric Jameson, famous Leftist/Marxist literary critic.

First heard of this dude while at UT back in the day, probably in the Cactus Cafe while discussing "postmodernism" and philosophy with fellow grad students. Oliver Stone/JFK conspiracies were running amok and X-Files was ramping up. (No CR)

[CustersDoctor 584]

Watching games that you have NO rooting interest in you can observe bad calls and multiple bad calls against one team makes a pattern. Like the Tech/ISU game in 2021. It was obvious a couple of the officials were steering the game towards ISU, late in the game they had to be outright blatant in their attempt to protect ISU. The Surly game thread was packed with these observations. Was amazing that Tech beat the officials and the Cyclones.

[CustersDoctor 584]

 I even see it in games where I hate a particular team but can tell they are getting cheated. Like the OU at Oregon game about 10 years ago. I'm rooting for the ducks but I can see that OU is getting screwed many times over. Especially on the on sidekick at the end of the game where the ducks didn't recover the ball but they were rewarded to ball anyhow.

[Nivek 16,979]

53 minutes ago, BevoAbyss said:

"Conspiracy theory is the poor man's cognitive map." Fredric Jameson, famous Leftist/Marxist literary critic.

First heard of this dude while at UT back in the day, probably in the Cactus Cafe while discussing "postmodernism" and philosophy with fellow grad students. Oliver Stone/JFK conspiracies were running amok and X-Files was ramping up. (No CR)

There is a difference in the degrees of a conspiracy.   Organized crime exists but they don't actually publish their org charts.   Flat earthers exist, but they do publish the stupid shit they believe.   Corruption in officiating exists, look how the Pac handled some fuck-ups by suspending the crew and look how the B12 defended and continued to employ the crew that officiated the OSU game.   Bad calls are fine.  It happens.  But when rules are applied unevenly that is where the issues are with the conference for the most part.   How many times have we watched the officials staring at the play ignore blatant rule violations?  The conference even needing to have a discussion over the horns up/horns down is an example of bullshit hypocrisy.   For years we watched players do it to the horns with no flags and when one of our guys did it back one time, the flags were tossed immediately.   If you need the University to point out the bullshit double standard to the refs, you are not on an even playing ground.  

How many times have we seen the refs come up with new shit against us?  I didn't hear the whistle defense.  Defensive holding.  etc.  

[Beau Vine 54,381]

15 minutes ago, CustersDoctor said:

 I even see it in games where I hate a particular team but can tell they are getting cheated. Like the OU at Oregon game about 10 years ago. I'm rooting for the ducks but I can see that OU is getting screwed many times over. Especially on the on sidekick at the end of the game where the ducks didn't recover the ball but they were rewarded to ball anyhow.

I thought about this game when I first saw this thread.   There have probably been worse "no-calls," but this was the most inexplicable call I've ever seen at any level in any sport.  And it was fucking glorious:

 

[cochamps 1,879]

13 minutes ago, Nivek said:

There is a difference in the degrees of a conspiracy.   Organized crime exists but they don't actually publish their org charts.   Flat earthers exist, but they do publish the stupid shit they believe.   Corruption in officiating exists, look how the Pac handled some fuck-ups by suspending the crew and look how the B12 defended and continued to employ the crew that officiated the OSU game.   Bad calls are fine.  It happens.  But when rules are applied unevenly that is where the issues are with the conference for the most part.   How many times have we watched the officials staring at the play ignore blatant rule violations?  The conference even needing to have a discussion over the horns up/horns down is an example of bullshit hypocrisy.   For years we watched players do it to the horns with no flags and when one of our guys did it back one time, the flags were tossed immediately.   If you need the University to point out the bullshit double standard to the refs, you are not on an even playing ground.  

How many times have we seen the refs come up with new shit against us?  I didn't hear the whistle defense.  Defensive holding.  etc.  

Continued to employ?  They gave those cocksuckers the conference championship game.