The Business of Hollywood & Streaming

[Gene Parmesan 3953]

3 hours ago, henrygandorf said:

now if they could only fix that pesky content problem.

I thought shit content was the business of hollywood and streaming.  You mean to tell me that someone is striving for good content out there?

[henrygandorf 28886]

46 minutes ago, Gene Parmesan said:

I thought shit content was the business of hollywood and streaming.  You mean to tell me that someone is striving for good content out there?

apple is.

i'm sure netflix is searching hard for quality (korean) content.

[HonkeyVape 107]

Quote

 

Over 300+ actors are threatening to go on strike if SAG-AFTRA (the American labor union for actors) does not create laws to protect actors against the use of A.I.

Some of the signees include Ben Stiller, Mark Ruffalo, Jennifer Lawrence, and Amy Schumer.

The fear is that directors will start to use deepfakes of actors to film scenes as opposed to paying the actors themselves.

 

 

[Queen Bitch 1692]

SAG joining us on the lines next week. It's happening, y'all.

[Longhornsnus 200]

On 7/7/2023 at 12:01 AM, Queen Bitch said:

SAG joining us on the lines next week. It's happening, y'all.

Major studios have until midnight Wednesday to reach a deal with the SAG-AFTRA actors union before Hollywood comes to a halt. Otherwise, actors could join screenwriters on strike — the first time they'd both be on the picket lines at the same time in 63 years — if they're unable to reach an agreement over issues such as wages, residual payments and the use of artificial intelligence. Hollywood is already about 80% shut down due to the writers strike that began in early May, and adding actors to the mix would close productions completely, per the NYT.

Any fresh strike action will impact local economies in filming hotspots such as Los Angeles, New York City and Atlanta.

Network shows would also be affected, prompting more reruns and likely reality television.

For more context on the issues at stake for the writers (and by extension, for knowledge workers at large), check out Hello Monday's podcast conversation between producer (and SAG actor) Sarah Storm and WGA strike captain Laura Jacqmin.

[Longhornsnus 200]

On 7/7/2023 at 12:01 AM, Queen Bitch said:

SAG joining us on the lines next week. It's happening, y'all.

“The endgame is to allow things to drag on until union members start losing their apartments and losing their houses.”

— An unnamed studio executive who told Deadline that Hollywood is planning to let the weekslong writers’ union strike continue into the fall, inflicting economic pain. Actors could join the writers on the picket line as a midnight deadline looms.

[hayden_horn 11311]

1 hour ago, Longhornsnus said:

“The endgame is to allow things to drag on until union members start losing their apartments and losing their houses.”

— An unnamed studio executive who told Deadline that Hollywood is planning to let the weekslong writers’ union strike continue into the fall, inflicting economic pain. Actors could join the writers on the picket line as a midnight deadline looms.

i once had a sales training from a british guy, real stuffy fucker, and quite a bully - every session, he picked the weak link and just punished them verbally. for some reason, he liked me well enough not to make me subject of his targeting, but i always felt bad for the folks he chose. 

anyways, his stance, as "ownership" was that if there is a strike of any kind, it's from a failure of management or ownership. end of story. his stance was that fundamentally people want to work, they don't want to strike, but they want to make a living. if it comes to basic voluntarily not working to make a point, then the threshold of pain has already been passed, and probably a long time ago when you weren't paying close enough attention.

he always said that capital exists because of labor. this was a died in the wool tory, but he actually seemed to have his eyes on the prize, generally, which is amicable compromise where everyone makes some money.

"unnamed studio executive" is everything wrong with executive "leadership" these days.

[henrygandorf 28886]

the person who told me "halloween" is now saying "hopefully by christmas."

shit's about to go down.

[MrBig 5183]

The Ryan Murphy multimillion dollar deals to produce content for streaming platforms means the unions have no leverage. 

Ryan Murphy can create his own bubble of people working in Murphyland and produce enough content to outlast the strike. The streamers would rather die than release their viewing numbers for the sake of creating a new wage scale. 

 

[cactusflinthead 27232]

 

[henrygandorf 28886]

41 minutes ago, MrBig said:

The Ryan Murphy multimillion dollar deals to produce content for streaming platforms means the unions have no leverage. 

one of the reasons the networks and studios allowed this to get to a strike was to ditch a bunch of overall deals with showrunners, because they figured out how idiotic they were to begin with.

41 minutes ago, MrBig said:

The streamers would rather die than release their viewing numbers for the sake of creating a new wage scale. 

and here comes the twist.  the streamers want everyone to think they won't release their numbers because they'll be high and writers/actors will freak out about residuals and demand more.  my theory is that the streamers actually don't want to release their numbers because the numbers are shitty and their stock will get pounded.

don't be surprised if you start reading stuff like this over the coming weeks and months.  bullshit posturing, but they will be exposed eventually.

[hayden_horn 11311]

31 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

one of the reasons the networks and studios allowed this to get to a strike was to ditch a bunch of overall deals with showrunners, because they figured out how idiotic they were to begin with.

and here comes the twist.  the streamers want everyone to think they won't release their numbers because they'll be high and writers/actors will freak out about residuals and demand more.  my theory is that the streamers actually don't want to release their numbers because the numbers are shitty and their stock will get pounded.

don't be surprised if you start reading stuff like this over the coming weeks and months.  bullshit posturing, but they will be exposed eventually.

yes yes yes.

the fact they (and financial analysts frankly) place so much value on nflx still blows my mind but it's all based on growth kpis measured in subs. 

they and the isps know exactly how much netflix is watched. everyone will get killed. it's kind of a tarantino mexican standoff. 

[henrygandorf 28886]

7 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

yes yes yes.

the fact they (and financial analysts frankly) place so much value on nflx still blows my mind but it's all based on growth kpis measured in subs. 

they and the isps know exactly how much netflix is watched. everyone will get killed. it's kind of a tarantino mexican standoff. 

it helps that they 'think' they have the perfect cover, considering it's a sticking point in the negotiations and they've been consistent about not being transparent.  it's pretty obvious if you've been paying attention.

it's also a discussion in some of our pitches - what constitutes a viewer?  60 seconds like twitch?  5 minutes?  an episode?  but when?  there is no first-run/re-run anymore.  on netflix it drops all at once and then just lays there like my ex-wife.  so what counts as viewership?  first 3 months?  6 months?  a year?  as long as it's on the platform?

intentional ambiguity.  i called their crash once already, but netflix is about to go through some things.

[MrBig 5183]

43 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

one of the reasons the networks and studios allowed this to get to a strike was to ditch a bunch of overall deals with showrunners, because they figured out how idiotic they were to begin with.

and here comes the twist.  the streamers want everyone to think they won't release their numbers because they'll be high and writers/actors will freak out about residuals and demand more.  my theory is that the streamers actually don't want to release their numbers because the numbers are shitty and their stock will get pounded.

don't be surprised if you start reading stuff like this over the coming weeks and months.  bullshit posturing, but they will be exposed eventually.

I agree. Streamers don’t want numbers released because it also raises questions about HOW the numbers are calculated. E.g. How many seconds into watching a show/movie counts as a view? Once you start asking questions about how the numbers are calculated in addition to the numbers themselves, it opens up a different can of worms.

[Queen Bitch 1692]

Actors have been on the lines with us since day one. Less out of solidarity (although that too, obv) and more because they're also rightfully fucking pissed.

Oh and re: that "We're fine admitting in print that we want the writers to suffer so much that they lose their homes"... there's this delicious morsel. Come quick, the C-suites are fighting!!!

 

[Longhornsnus 200]

• SAG-AFTRA’s president Fran Drescher said studio responses were “insulting and disrespectful.”
• The union is looking for a new agreement over issues such as wages, payments from streaming services and the use of artificial intelligence.
• The strike could affect the Emmy Awards.

I was today years old when I learned that Fran Drescher was a somebody and an insider in the industry.

[Queen Bitch 1692]

Anyone wanna guess who the SAG president was the last time the WGA and SAG struck together?

[Parliament 14017]

Charlie Chaplin?

[Stringer 1423]

I just love that Fran Drescher is leading this thing.

[Captain Ron 12722]

2 hours ago, Queen Bitch said:

Anyone wanna guess who the SAG president was the last time the WGA and SAG struck together?

 

2 hours ago, Parliament said:

Charlie Chaplin?

 

Spoilered because I did not guess.

Spoiler

Reagan 

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by Captain Ron

[henrygandorf 28886]

32 minutes ago, Captain Ron said:

 

 

Spoilered because I did not guess.

  Reveal hidden contents

Reagan 

 

is this back when he was still a democrat (no cr)?  i watched his docu-series and i highly recommend it.  his life from the late 1950's thru the late 1970's was pretty fascinating.  and horrifying. 

just in case people are wondering "fran drescher??!?" - the head of sag/sag-aftra can be a pretty intense position.  most of the higher-up officers are not busy working actors.

[Longhornsnus 200]

As an industry outsider I have an opinion, and I’m not sure if it’s a shared one from industry outsiders or not, but the AI stuff actors and writers are going to have to live with. The toothpaste is out of the tube and zero executives are going to deny the ability to use potentially the most efficient and profit optimizing tool since the internet.

[henrygandorf 28886]

8 minutes ago, Longhornsnus said:

As an industry outsider I have an opinion, and I’m not sure if it’s a shared one from industry outsiders or not, but the AI stuff actors and writers are going to have to live with. The toothpaste is out of the tube and zero executives are going to deny the ability to use potentially the most efficient and profit optimizing tool since the internet.

i can tell you that ai is being painted as a huge sticking point in these negotiations.  like it's the one main issue.  it's not.  it's a very minor one.

streaming has changed a lot since 2008-09.  so has network syndication.  that's what this is.

[Longhornsnus 200]

9 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

i can tell you that ai is being painted as a huge sticking point in these negotiations.  like it's the one main issue.  it's not.  it's a very minor one.

streaming has changed a lot since 2008-09.  so has network syndication.  that's what this is.

Gotcha, yea, the media and every article has AI being the big impasse.

[LCHorn 2564]

@henrygandorfwhats your read on Bob Iger’s comments today in Variety?  It seems like everyone but Netflix is losing money…

[henrygandorf 28886]

2 minutes ago, LCHorn said:

@henrygandorfwhats your read on Bob Iger’s comments today in Variety?  It seems like everyone but Netflix is losing money…

 

i think that if the entertainment business is too rough on their ceo's, he's welcome to change professions. studios and networks are laying off people left and right for their share price, yet upper management seems to be just fine. 

it should be pointed out that this was not some walk-out.  this is a strike based on the expiration of the previous agreements for writers and actors.  if they simply sign a new one, they're stuck with the terms for as long as it lasts.  if it's bad timing for the studios, that's just a bonus.

it should also be pointed out that this is not about tom cruise or aaron sorkin.  this is about mid-level actors and writers who are trying to make a living.  that's why the directors never strike.

 

[hayden_horn 11311]

6 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

 

 

 

generally, if you live life by this maxim, you're going to be alright. 

[Longhornsnus 200]

43 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

 

i think that if the entertainment business is too rough on their ceo's, he's welcome to change professions. studios and networks are laying off people left and right for their share price, yet upper management seems to be just fine. 

it should be pointed out that this was not some walk-out.  this is a strike based on the expiration of the previous agreements for writers and actors.  if they simply sign a new one, they're stuck with the terms for as long as it lasts.  if it's bad timing for the studios, that's just a bonus.

it should also be pointed out that this is not about tom cruise or aaron sorkin.  this is about mid-level actors and writers who are trying to make a living.  that's why the directors never strike.

 

I read everyone was trying to get Bob Iger to get involved because he was the what broke the logjam and got the motion of the deal started the last time this happened in 09 or whenever it was.

[Longhornsnus 200]

53 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

 

i think that if the entertainment business is too rough on their ceo's, he's welcome to change professions. studios and networks are laying off people left and right for their share price, yet upper management seems to be just fine. 

it should be pointed out that this was not some walk-out.  this is a strike based on the expiration of the previous agreements for writers and actors.  if they simply sign a new one, they're stuck with the terms for as long as it lasts.  if it's bad timing for the studios, that's just a bonus.

it should also be pointed out that this is not about tom cruise or aaron sorkin.  this is about mid-level actors and writers who are trying to make a living.  that's why the directors never strike.

 

I just read Iger's comments:

It almost feels like a situation where the writers (and to a lesser extent the actors) were locked in a bad deal during the most heady of times, that are never coming back, but want the new deal to reflect what they missed out on?

It seems like it could be a situation illustrated by the analogy of an NFL running back with the writers being the running backs. The running backs want the money they see literally everyone else getting (QBs, WRs, LTs, CBs, TEs, etc.) and they want to come back in time (unrealistically) to when RB's were strategically valued across the board and as a monolith, versus the top 5% unicorns.

Writers aren't so debased in Hollywood and AI/technology isn't there to run off the bottom 50% of the profession yet and there will always be a place at the table for the top quartile of talent, but I can see where Iger is coming from in this new world of show business distribution and economics.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Longhornsnus

[Bateshorn 9610]

Just wanted to thank y’all for the updates and interesting commentary. I work IP adjacent and the awkwardness on my coalition calls as everyone’s lobbyist is ignoring the raging 800 lb gorilla in the room is insane.

[Queen Bitch 1692]

1 hour ago, Longhornsnus said:

As an industry outsider I have an opinion, and I’m not sure if it’s a shared one from industry outsiders or not, but the AI stuff actors and writers are going to have to live with. The toothpaste is out of the tube and zero executives are going to deny the ability to use potentially the most efficient and profit optimizing tool since the internet.

Can't speak for SAG, but AI and room minimums are the two biggest issues discussed on the WGA lines. The nuances of room minimums are slightly harder to explain to an outsider, but AI instantly resonates with any worker -- hence it's the one that gets the most press.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Queen Bitch

[henrygandorf 28886]

10 minutes ago, Longhornsnus said:

I just read Iger's comments:

It almost feels like a situation where the writers (and to a lesser extent the actors) were locked in a bad deal during the most heady of times, that are never coming back, but want the new deal to reflect what they missed out on?

It seems like it could be a situation illustrated by the analogy of an NFL running back with the writers being the running backs. The running backs want the money they see literally everyone else getting (QBs, WRs, LTs, CBs, TEs, etc.) and they want to come back in time (unrealistically) to when RB's were strategically valued across the board and as a monolith, versus the top 5% unicorns.

Writers aren't so debased in Hollywood and AI/technology isn't there to run off the bottom 50% of the profession yet and there will always be a place at the table for the top quartile of talent, but I can see where Iger is coming from in this new world of show business distribution and economics.

well there are new rules, and the writers aren't the ones making them.

a better analog would be if quarterbacks were making so much money that the nfl owners decided to change the rules of nfl and make it beneficial to run the wildcat 90% of the time, justifying paying the qb a lot less.

used to be 24 eps a season + reruns and syndication with a 3 month break + involvement in dvd sales, etc.  now it's 8 eps per season, with 12-15 months in between, and when the season is over, it's over and just sits on a platform.  there were no situations like that in 2008 so they're trying to make the rules fair.  i don't think this is about retroactively fixing/compensating what was broken before as much as knowing this might be the last chance to make a permanent realignment to the structure moving forward.

[The Ace of Aces 5054]

Hopefully going to NYC Saturday to join their picket line (they officially strike at midnight). We join WGA's when we can too. #1U

[Dbeasy 14790]

Could the strikers somehow negotiate a package where the rest of us can stop being subjected to Hollywood stars popping up in every orifice of our lives, from game shows to nascar races to commercials to…. I’m half expecting them to be in my doctors office, somehow trying to make a buck off my inevitable death. 

[Longhornsnus 200]

17 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

well there are new rules, and the writers aren't the ones making them.

a better analog would be if quarterbacks were making so much money that the nfl owners decided to change the rules of nfl and make it beneficial to run the wildcat 90% of the time, justifying paying the qb a lot less.

used to be 24 eps a season + reruns and syndication with a 3 month break + involvement in dvd sales, etc.  now it's 8 eps per season, with 12-15 months in between, and when the season is over, it's over and just sits on a platform.  there were no situations like that in 2008 so they're trying to make the rules fair.  i don't think this is about retroactively fixing/compensating what was broken before as much as knowing this might be the last chance to make a permanent realignment to the structure moving forward.

Yes, agree, that is a much better analogy. The studios/execs are trying to nerf the writers because they have a lot of other costs now, it seems?

[mdmost 42490]

1 hour ago, LCHorn said:

@henrygandorfwhats your read on Bob Iger’s comments today in Variety?  It seems like everyone but Netflix is losing money…

Guy making 25M annually wants to shit on people just wanting to make a living and not have their jobs made obsolete. And Iger gets that money regardless of if Disney is doing well financially or having any sort of success at the box office or with streaming. But yes, the working class are the ones with unrealistic expectations. Talk about tone deaf. 

Edited July 13, 2023 by mdmost

[henrygandorf 28886]

2 minutes ago, Longhornsnus said:

The studios/execs are trying to nerf the writers because they have a lot of other costs now, it seems?  can, because there weren't 10 streaming platforms in 2009 and the previous contract is antiquated.  don't get it twisted.

their costs are down, their staffs are smaller, the marketing budgets are down (because of the netflix model).  yes, revenue is down since covid and the movie theaters are getting pounded.  that's not the fault of the writers and changes nothing in terms of getting credit (money) for work that you've done every time it's consumed/sold.

showrunners started making huge money in the 90's and 00's and studio/network heads didn't like that.  75 years ago actors were stuck in the studio system and were basically slaves to that studio (apologies for use of the word slave, but not sure what else to call it). 

things change.  adapt or die.

[Longhornsnus 200]

10 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

their costs are down, their staffs are smaller, the marketing budgets are down (because of the netflix model).  yes, revenue is down since covid and the movie theaters are getting pounded.  that's not the fault of the writers and changes nothing in terms of getting credit (money) for work that you've done every time it's consumed/sold.

showrunners started making huge money in the 90's and 00's and studio/network heads didn't like that.  75 years ago actors were stuck in the studio system and were basically slaves to that studio (apologies for use of the word slave, but not sure what else to call it). 

things change.  adapt or die.

How do you take Queen on here saying that, in fact, AI is a big sticking point (contrary to what your insiders say)?

[Celery Man 20607]

31 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

Could the strikers somehow negotiate a package where the rest of us can stop being subjected to Hollywood stars popping up in every orifice of our lives, from game shows to nascar races to commercials to…. I’m half expecting them to be in my doctors office, somehow trying to make a buck off my inevitable death. 

Jon Hamm calmly twirling a lighter while telling you to get your prostate checked.

[henrygandorf 28886]

1 minute ago, Longhornsnus said:

How do you take Queen on here saying that, in fact, AI is a big sticking point (contrary to what your insiders say)?

queen could be completely right and i could be way off. 

ai is largely an unknown quantity, so people fear it.  personally, i think it's being treated as a bit of a red herring.  a year ago i didn't know shit about ai, but i knew all about the 13 years of writers bitching about how they were getting screwed by streaming platforms since the 2009 deal didn't protect them.

a lot of people feel like this new deal needs to right some of those wrongs, along with protecting against future encroachment (like ai).  i'm not in the room, so i don't know what the hang-ups are, the non-starters, the sticking points.  but i know that networks/studios would rather dangle ai protection than unfuck what happened 14 years ago.

room size and staff size (as well as timing required) is all brought on to account for shorter seasons.  tv has evolved and it's not the 80's anymore.  they need to find something in the middle that ensures writers will have jobs, but they also need to look back and understand that fair residuals keep writers afloat while they're developing projects. 

non-staffed writers are often not being paid at all while they develop and pitch. same could be said about actors while they're auditioning.

[mdmost 42490]

3 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

I agree with you.  I’m convinced they fear Wall Street will have a meltdown about how these streaming services spend billions and billions on content each year and most of it is crap that essentially nobody watches.  Residuals and syndication fees aren’t exactly new to the industry, and if anything it’s still a break for them to only have to pay based on someone actually watching it vs. having to pay because Channel 5 bought the rights to broadcast (whether anyone tunes in or not).

The costs are out of control. Supposedly the Secret Invasion show on Disney+ cost 212 million dollars to make. 6 episodes, 35.3 M per episode. That's ridiculous given it's not something that's going to generate that many signups. Iger did say that MCU content on Disney+ was going to be scaled back. Add onto that Disney+ has also cost Disney at the box office as it has conditioned people to not value going to the theater to see Disney movies. You can just wait about a month and see it on Disney+. It's not a sustainable model. 

[immamac 41747]

All this would be solved if streaming went away and the actual consumers of entertainment had a way to you know, pay for that entertainment at a market value established by them instead of some idiots in a studio somewhere who charge 24.99 for a fucking Blu-ray. Why not just charge 6-9 dollars for a downloadable movie that you can opt to have streamed from some centralized place cuz you don't wanna manage the storage/files etc. 

That would fix everything. Pay comes in, pay goes to studios, pay goes to actors, everyone knows how much everyone is consuming or buying. 

Streaming has fucked everything up and it's really weird because it doesn't really actually save anyone any money including the studios. 

[naija 2804]

Anyone negotiating for a new deal in any industry would be stupid not to be worried about A.I. Seems to me, we are all going to have to deal with this one way or the other and you are best served setting some ground rules now, no matter how painful it gets to do so.

[henrygandorf 28886]

 

[Captain Ron 12722]

1 hour ago, Longhornsnus said:

Yes, agree, that is a much better analogy. The studios/execs are trying to nerf the writers because ... Profits

FIFY.

This is all about money for the top of the studios and the investors.

[Longhornsnus 200]

15 minutes ago, naija said:

Anyone negotiating for a new deal in any industry would be stupid not to be worried about A.I. Seems to me, we are all going to have to deal with this one way or the other and you are best served setting some ground rules now, no matter how painful it gets to do so.

Which is why I think, if true that writers/actors are dying on the AI hill, I don't see savvy executives and business people kowtowing to the creatives on AI. I think we all know how this is going to end, and it ain't gonna be a great deal for the creatives wrt AI.

[MrBig 5183]

11 minutes ago, naija said:

Anyone negotiating for a new deal in any industry would be stupid not to be worried about A.I. Seems to me, we are all going to have to deal with this one way or the other and you are best served setting some ground rules now, no matter how painful it gets to do so.

This is what the SAG-AFTRA chief negotiator said about the AI proposal they got from the AMPTP

“This ‘groundbreaking’ AI proposal that they gave us yesterday, they proposed that our background performers should be able to be scanned, get one day’s pay, and their companies should own that scan, their image, their likeness and should be able to use it for the rest of eternity on any project they want, with no consent and no compensation. So if you think that’s a groundbreaking proposal, I suggest you think again.”

[Captain Ron 12722]

 

[HornOnTheBayou 8855]

Wouldn't Linda Hamilton have been a better choice for an actress who should deliver that warning?

[Nice Guy Eddie 13317]

2 hours ago, Captain Ron said:

 

I don’t blame them for striking but it’s a bit disingenuous to ask for fair wages when the top 1% of the acting labor force must take home 80% of the compensation for all actors. (I don’t know the numbers but the top must make a high %.) 

Edited July 13, 2023 by Nice Guy Eddie