2023 Thread of Racism in America

[Satchel 6908]

Since this can’t be discussed in the football forum, I’m not sure where this should go, but can we discuss the latest allegation against Michael Irvin? I think this will prove to be a set up, and those involved should pay.

[Longhorn_Fan68 33844]

 

 

[Willfully Horn 7919]

Just… wow. Unfuckingbelievable.

 

 

[Pancho 44491]

May he be sent to the blackest, Blackity black black prison in the country:

 

[Willfully Horn 7919]

Here’s the sort of history that Rs don’t want US students to learn.

 

[Neonmoon 38127]

Sweet fucking Christ. I don’t have the words. 

[Brisketexan 104636]

Sweet fucking Christ. I don’t have the words. 

You sound like one of them woke CRT types. Not today, SOROS!

[TwiceHorn 31295]

On 2/12/2023 at 3:13 PM, Satchel said:

Many of us read or heard about the kind of atrocity you describe, but living through that kind of hatred in real time is jarring. The same is true on the world stage. We read about Hitler and now we are seeing a malevolent war criminal made in his image operate before our very eyes.

I'll say this for sure, for most of my 56 years, it has felt like we were moving forward on racial issues, however slowly.

This is the first time I have felt like we were moving backward.

[TwiceHorn 31295]

On 2/14/2023 at 1:16 PM, Willfully Horn said:

Just… wow. Unfuckingbelievable.

 

 

Not to mention that ol' Gilberto there sounds like a dirty meskin.

Does it ever occur to these untermensch that if they establish the Fourth Reich, they're next on the boxcars?

Edited February 22, 2023 by TwiceHorn

[Willfully Horn 7919]

This thread ought be the correct spot. Racists, and anti-semites: diseased fruit from a poisoned tree. Link has the story, along with a video, of the GDF (Goyim Defense.League) spewing hate outside a synagogue. 
 

https://forward.com/fast-forward/537336/orlando-chabad-harassed-by-antisemitic-hate-group/

[Brisketexan 104636]

I'll say this for sure, for most of my 56 years, it has felt like we were moving forward on racial issues, however slowly.
This is the first time I have felt like we were moving backward.

Yep. Backwards, with enthusiasm and support - with the force of law - of an entire political party. In GQP America, you couldn’t speak of that lynching story in any school or university, because “that’s CRT! It’s intended to make white people feel bad!” Again, we have laws that LITERALLY ban speaking the truth in a school, because inherent in the story is that the dominant white society openly murdered black people.
Silencing such truths is flat-out evil. But that’s what they stand for: evil racism. It’s back, baby!

[mchookem 16230]

thanks Obama

[Brisketexan 104636]

thanks Obama

You should have posted that without irony.
Electing a black man president genuinely broke the brains of 150 million Americans. I had no idea it would so traumatize them, but holy shit, it completely broke them.

[mchookem 16230]

yeah...i wasn't being ironic 😒

[Pancho 44491]

 

[DigglerontheHoof 21068]

Again, why the fuck can't I ever be around when these cunts are doing this.  Just. Once.

[Brisketexan 104636]

5 minutes ago, Pancho said:

 

DeSantis IS acting....by supporting legislation that would give those racists a slam-dunk winning case for defamation if you dare call them "racist."  I'm dead-on, 100% serious.

In Florida, you will face harsher punishment for CALLING someone a racist than the racist will face for doing actual racist shit.

[Brisketexan 104636]

2 minutes ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

Again, why the fuck can't I ever be around when these cunts are doing this.  Just. Once.

I was around when they did it here.  I said "fuck that shit" and stood on a nearby corner with a sign supportive of our local jewish community, and, umm, stating certain opinions about Nazis.  Some of the nazis came up behind me and tried to goad me into a fight.  I didn't respond, kept my back to them, because what they want is a fight/violence, so don't give it to them.  What's important is to show support for the good guys, our fellow human beings, and to let them know we WILL stand between them and threats to them.

Never again fucking means never again.

[Willfully Horn 7919]

Desantis didn’t go as far as the R base demands, I will point out. Those psychos want retribution when they believe you have called them racist. No fact necessary. The intermediary step will be making it actionable to point out someone”s vote tolerates racism. 

['stache 21777]

14 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

You should have posted that without irony.
Electing a black man president genuinely broke the brains of 150 million Americans. I had no idea it would so traumatize them, but holy shit, it completely broke them.

And he was only half black. Imagine if he was Charlie Murphy's hue.  

[Brisketexan 104636]

5 minutes ago, 'stache said:

And he was only half black. Imagine if he was Charlie Murphy's hue.  

He would have been assassinated at the inauguration.  In hindsight, I am actually totally shocked that Obama wasn't assassinated, seeing the amount of rage and hatred his election awakened.

[elfenix 34174]

Bilingual Erath County worker quits after English-only office demand

Veronica Cajamarca, 36, said she and the only other bilingual employee of the Erath County tax assessor-collector office were asked to sign the policy after other employees complained they were talking about them in Spanish.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/texas/2023/02/23/bilingual-erath-county-employee-i-quit-after-being-asked-to-sign-english-only-rule/

[Willfully Horn 7919]

A tolerant society can not abide intolerance and remain a tolerant society.  Amen, Kari Popper.

 

 

 

Edited February 25, 2023 by Willfully Horn

[Brisketexan 104636]

A tolerant society not abide intolerance and remain a tolerant society.  Amen, Kari Popper.
 
 
 

You know, as our resident fascists are introducing legislation left and right that protects their ideology, I want to introduce the “American WWII Veterans memorial bill to legalize punching Nazis in the fucking face.” Our WWII grandfathers shot them dead by the truckload, so to honor them, we should at least punch them in the face. It’s the patriotic American thing to do - why are you opposed to American patriotism, GQP? Why are you siding with Nazis over our heroic veterans?

[TexArcher 37525]

On 2/23/2023 at 12:46 PM, Brisketexan said:

He would have been assassinated at the inauguration.  In hindsight, I am actually totally shocked that Obama wasn't assassinated, seeing the amount of rage and hatred his election awakened.

I didn't think he'd see the end of his first term, tbh.

[atomheartbevo 89452]

 

 

[mchookem 16230]

[Guest]

On 2/23/2023 at 12:14 PM, DigglerontheHoof said:

Again, why the fuck can't I ever be around when these cunts are doing this.  Just. Once.

Because someone with utter disdain for themselves is going to respond to feedback so constructively, right?

I get where you are coming from, but these fuckers aren't going to react by asking themselves, " Damn, is this not the absolute dregs of humanity in the way I am acting?"

But yeah, a shovel to their heads might be pretty fucking therapeutic.

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

I'm not requoting that Dilbert cartoonist's tweet, so Wow. Just wow.

[SL Xpress 7505]

It's so interesting to watch someone just pull the rip cord, give in to their most base instincts, damn the consequences. 

I had such a huge amount of respect for the creator of Dilbert because the sense of humor displayed was so intelligent and so on target. I haven't read a Dilbert cartoon in years, simply because I no longer read a paper version of the newspaper, but when the Chronicle bought the Post in Houston and began running all the comics from both newspapers for a time period, reading the comic section was a daily highlight in many ways, and Dilbert was always a favorite. 

I was startled to watch Adams make his early comments regarding Donald Trump and his effective persuasive style, but was very impressed by his prescience, even while being terrified by it.

There is no hope for this country the more people give in to this mindset. I do not believe minorities and their allies approach racism in a way designed to bring rapprochement, but reacting in this manner is akin to throwing in the towel, although to be honest, given the tone of his comments I seriously doubt his efforts were good faith in the first place. 

[aggie08 21434]

12 hours ago, Willfully Horn said:

A tolerant society can not abide intolerance and remain a tolerant society.  Amen, Kari Popper.

 

 

 

In a normal world, this one picture would completely stall out Desantis's campaign before it ever started.

[Paul Wesley 3277]

18 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

I seriously doubt his efforts were good faith in the first place. 

I seriously doubt there were efforts. 

[aggie08 21434]

I've asked my Trump (and soon to be Desantis) voting friends that, while all Trump voters may not be racists, if it bothers them that ALL white supremacists and anti-Semites love them some Trump? You have no hesitations at all that the people you vote for have dog whistles for the biggest pieces of shit on the planet?

Still waiting on a coherent answer.

[safe sex 11685]

41 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

There is no hope for this country the more people give in to this mindset. I do not believe minorities and their allies approach racism in a way designed to bring rapprochement, but reacting in this manner is akin to throwing in the towel, although to be honest, given the tone of his comments I seriously doubt his efforts were good faith in the first place. 

Do you think that racial (and other) minorities should approach bigots in a spirit of rapprochement? What would that look like? Why is it their responsibility (which is what I picked up from your message)?

[SL Xpress 7505]

4 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

I've asked my Trump (and soon to be Desantis) voting friends that, while all Trump voters may not be racists, if it bothers them that ALL white supremacists and anti-Semites love them some Trump? You have no hesitations at all that the people you vote for have dog whistles for the biggest pieces of shit on the planet?

Still waiting on a coherent answer.

The answer I get is they want someone who will win. 

I remember going to a lecture in Austin in the late 80s from a Democrat congressman from Oklahoma. I can't recall his name now. He was articulate, thoughtful, and his discussion felt authentic in terms of how he thought about various issues. But the big thing he emphasized is how tired he was of not having a Democrat in the White House. How difficult it was to get anything done if your party doesn't hold the presidency. Which is common sense for anyone who knows how our system works, but it struck home for me its importance in a way that reading or thinking about it myself didn't. 

We all know that politics are now treated practically like a sporting event. Discussions so often are no longer about what is best for the country, or what the right policy direction is, but how it impacts winning or losing. The competition is the focus, and who will win that competition. Building a winning coalition is more important and valued more than the message required to build that coalition. I'm not naive enough to think some of that hasn't always been there, but its emphasis is on a different level now.

Anyone I know who loves Trump/Desantis, or any other rabid populist, but doesn't necessarily identify with the worst segments of their supporters, would gladly switch to someone else in a heartbeat if they demonstrated they had a better shot at winning the election. 

There's also the demonization of the other side that occurs, whether you're Democrat or Republican. No matter how bad someone from your tribe seems to be, they're way better than the spawns of hell on the opposite side of the issue. But that's my experience. 

I will say my constant drumbeat on the dangers of Trump to democracy bore fruit with a number of people who used to consider themselves all in with Trump, but are now disgusted by him, but that took 4 to 5 years of enduring abuse and ridicule, while simply insisting I'm right, feeling like if I simply kept planting the seed, at some point it will become so apparent they won't be able to hold a cognitive dissonance about it. Of course, then there's the segment that would scarily like to see the vestiges of representative government go away if it meant their tribe was guaranteed power. Which is so near sighted and misguided that it's unbelievable. It's simply not thinking things through. 

[Brisketexan 104636]

The answer I get is they want someone who will win. 
I remember going to a lecture in Austin in the late 80s from a Democrat congressman from Oklahoma. I can't recall his name now. He was articulate, thoughtful, and his discussion felt authentic in terms of how he thought about various issues. But the big thing he emphasized is how tired he was of not having a Democrat in the White House. How difficult it was to get anything done if your party doesn't hold the presidency. Which is common sense for anyone who knows how our system works, but it struck home for me its importance in a way that reading or thinking about it myself didn't. 
We all know that politics are now treated practically like a sporting event. Discussions so often are no longer about what is best for the country, or what the right policy direction is, but how it impacts winning or losing. The competition is the focus, and who will win that competition. Building a winning coalition is more important and valued more than the message required to build that coalition. I'm not naive enough to think some of that hasn't always been there, but its emphasis is on a different level now.
Anyone I know who loves Trump/Desantis, or any other rabid populist, but doesn't necessarily identify with the worst segments of their supporters, would gladly switch to someone else in a heartbeat if they demonstrated they had a better shot at winning the election. 
There's also the demonization of the other side that occurs, whether you're Democrat or Republican. No matter how bad someone from your tribe seems to be, they're way better than the spawns of hell on the opposite side of the issue. But that's my experience. 
I will say my constant drumbeat on the dangers of Trump to democracy bore fruit with a number of people who used to consider themselves all in with Trump, but are now disgusted by him, but that took 4 to 5 years of enduring abuse and ridicule, while simply insisting I'm right, feeling like if I simply kept planting the seed, at some point it will become so apparent they won't be able to hold a cognitive dissonance about it. Of course, then there's the segment that would scarily like to see the vestiges of representative government go away if it meant their tribe was guaranteed power. Which is so near sighted and misguided that it's unbelievable. It's simply not thinking things through. 

The “winning at all costs” calculus is what separates decent human beings from pieces of shit. And no, I have no problem getting on my high horse in that respect.
Translate it to football. There are some people who would be just fine with their favorite college football team being full of murderers and rapists, and coached by an evil rape enabler, so long as the team wins it all. There are others who say and mean “yeah, I want us to win…but not that way,” and want murderers and rapists kicked off the team.
I think that Texas, for example, has a better ratio of fans in that respect than many other programs (due to our historical pool of students etc…and note that I said “ratio,” we’re not perfect and there are more texas fans than I would like who’d be just fine with a team of criminals so long as they win).
When a society chooses “win at all costs,” and by “all costs,” they mean sacrificing basic human decency and instead opt for cruelty and inflection of pain as a political ethos….that society is on a fast train to shit town.

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

This train of thought was illuminated quite nicely in the documentary 537 Votes. Although it was about the election in 2000, it is still relevant (esp with respect to various political operatives) and watching Roger Stone still makes my skin crawl.

[SL Xpress 7505]

7 minutes ago, safe sex said:

Do you think that racial (and other) minorities should approach bigots in a spirit of rapprochement? What would that look like? Why is it their responsibility (which is what I picked up from your message)?

I don't think in terms of responsibility. I think in terms of effectiveness.

There's a demonization of white people that's inherent in the conversations regarding race in this country that's not helpful to a healthy dialogue and cooperation regarding racial issues into the future. I read an article in The Atlantic a few days ago where the author compared the repression occurring in South Africa to the black cops involved in the murder of Tyre Hughes, and how both of them are manifestations of white racism. If it weren't for white people abusing their power for so long, black people wouldn't be emulating them as part of the system.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/02/south-africa-apartheid-black-police-brutality-tyre-nichols/672969/

The truth is there will always be someone/someones in power, and that power will always be subject to abuse. Animals are hierarchal in nature. "We are all equal. The pigs were just a little equaler." That goes back so far in the evolutionary ladder it's embedded deep deep deep in our genetic structure. I do not believe it's possible to have a functioning group dynamic without some kind of hierarchy, whatever it is. 

By definition, power cannot be abused by the powerless. We can ascribe angelic, idealistic qualities to the powerless. "The meek shall inherit the Earth." The inevitable revolution of the proletariat. Black people are not capable of the abuse of power because they've been the victims of it for so long. I'm not actually judging these messages. Each one is extremely powerful in their own way, and even helpful within certain contexts. But they're not true. 

There can be no abuse of power without agency. But there has never been a group that's been in power that didn't abuse it in some way. In some ways, from the perspective of the powerless, it's inevitable it will be abused simply through the process of exercising it.

But in the narrative that the end racism movement has used for at least the last 40 years that I've been aware of it, the message is there's something special about white people and their use of power (I'd even make it more specific in many contexts, to say white men). Something inherently evil that can only be exorcised by a full admission of sins and prostrating themselves at the altar of the people they've historically wronged. I understand the appeal. I don't even know that it's incorrect. But I've always been 100% convicted at its ultimate failure, and I've said so in a lot of environments where it didn't exactly fall on sympathetic ears. 

We like to talk about the Atlantic slave trade and how evil that was. Which, c'mon. It was. Anyone who reads the details of that and isn't affected by the lack of humanity the perpetrators exhibited has lost their soul. But the truth is no race has been more responsible for the ending of the slave trade than white people, either. Does that mean white people should get an attaboy? Certainly not. But there should at least be an acknowledgement to balance out the accusations for creating it in the first place, and there's not. All white people should identify with slave traders, not with the white people who helped end it, because that's the dynamic that feels the best for the people running the current dialogue from the minority perspective. 

My big issue is when the focus is casting blame on a tribe for all the evils they've done, there seems to be this assumption that of course that tribe is going to own up to it and admit their faults, and in many cases hand over power to some extent to the tribe they've historically wronged. But that's not actually what occurs. What happens instead is that some segment starts resenting the accusations, pushes back on them, and starts circling the wagons to justify their existence, and to feel pride at their belonging within the tribe. In other words, this approach doesn't lessen racism. It stratifies it. 

Of course, I also don't believe we can actually end racism. The most effective way to end racism in my mind is to create more of a homogenous community through interracial marriage/breeding. It's harder to be racist when your grandchild is another race. Not impossible. But harder. But what we can do is consciously choose to draw our tribal affiliations along lines other than race. But that has its own unintended consequences. For example, we always talk about anti Semitism, but the source of anti Semitism is a group of people who isolate themselves from the wider community in very important ways - one of them being not marrying outside the tribe. As long as they don't hold power or influence, they can be seen as harmless, although likely discardable. But as soon as Jews grew to have power and influence on some level, they immediately became targets of suspicion and violence. As someone who considers myself a rabid philosemitist, the last thing I want is for Jews to give up their identity, intermarry with non Jews to the point where they're assimilated into the wider culture, until there's no such thing as Jewish culture and identity remaining. However, without that they will always encounter some level of racism, because they set themselves apart in ways that when they hold power it's going to naturally create resentment, envy, and a sense that we're not all on a level playing field, regardless of merit. 

In any case, there's a demonization going on of anything seen as the values, traditions, and power sources for the white patriarchy. And then we seem shocked on some level when a counter movement springs up with a number of sympathizers that says these things have a certain level of importance, and we don't appreciate them being completely vilified. That's how human nature works. 

So if we all choose to double down with this attitude, it's not going to isolate and diminish the movement going on in support of what I'd call the white tribe. That movement is going to grow and become even more intransigent and capable of worse things. With the concomitant reactions that produces in the other side. Which then leads to horrible things like purges and mass killings in their final form. 

What we need is to find a path towards some commonality that doesn't involve race. Some shared goal, ideal, or best of all, a common enemy. Something we all aspire to in a sense of community. But my feeling is we're going to head to a lot of darkness before we ever reach that. The biggest hope I have is that this country has seemed to produce the leader it needed most at the time of its greatest need. Perhaps at some point someone comes along - another Abraham Lincoln, for example - to create a powerful shift in a new direction. I don't see anyone even remotely resembling that on the horizon, but heck, Lincoln wasn't seen that way by a lot of folks when he was elected, either.  

[Brisketexan 104636]

I don't think in terms of responsibility. I think in terms of effectiveness.
There's a demonization of white people that's inherent in the conversations regarding race in this country that's not helpful to a healthy dialogue and cooperation regarding racial issues into the future. I read an article in The Atlantic a few days ago where the author compared the repression occurring in South Africa to the black cops involved in the murder of Tyre Hughes, and how both of them are manifestations of white racism. If it weren't for white people abusing their power for so long, black people wouldn't be emulating them as part of the system.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/02/south-africa-apartheid-black-police-brutality-tyre-nichols/672969/
The truth is there will always be someone/someones in power, and that power will always be subject to abuse. Animals are hierarchal in nature. "We are all equal. The pigs were just a little equaler." That goes back so far in the evolutionary ladder it's embedded deep deep deep in our genetic structure. I do not believe it's possible to have a functioning group dynamic without some kind of hierarchy, whatever it is. 
By definition, power cannot be abused by the powerless. We can ascribe angelic, idealistic qualities to the powerless. "The meek shall inherit the Earth." The inevitable revolution of the proletariat. Black people are not capable of the abuse of power because they've been the victims of it for so long. I'm not actually judging these messages. Each one is extremely powerful in their own way, and even helpful within certain contexts. But they're not true. 
There can be no abuse of power without agency. But there has never been a group that's been in power that didn't abuse it in some way. In some ways, from the perspective of the powerless, it's inevitable it will be abused simply through the process of exercising it.
But in the narrative that the end racism movement has used for at least the last 40 years that I've been aware of it, the message is there's something special about white people and their use of power (I'd even make it more specific in many contexts, to say white men). Something inherently evil that can only be exorcised by a full admission of sins and prostrating themselves at the altar of the people they've historically wronged. I understand the appeal. I don't even know that it's incorrect. But I've always been 100% convicted at its ultimate failure, and I've said so in a lot of environments where it didn't exactly fall on sympathetic ears. 
We like to talk about the Atlantic slave trade and how evil that was. Which, c'mon. It was. Anyone who reads the details of that and isn't affected by the lack of humanity the perpetrators exhibited has lost their soul. But the truth is no race has been more responsible for the ending of the slave trade than white people, either. Does that mean white people should get an attaboy? Certainly not. But there should at least be an acknowledgement to balance out the accusations for creating it in the first place, and there's not. All white people should identify with slave traders, not with the white people who helped end it, because that's the dynamic that feels the best for the people running the current dialogue from the minority perspective. 
My big issue is when the focus is casting blame on a tribe for all the evils they've done, there seems to be this assumption that of course that tribe is going to own up to it and admit their faults, and in many cases hand over power to some extent to the tribe they've historically wronged. But that's not actually what occurs. What happens instead is that some segment starts resenting the accusations, pushes back on them, and starts circling the wagons to justify their existence, and to feel pride at their belonging within the tribe. In other words, this approach doesn't lessen racism. It stratifies it. 
Of course, I also don't believe we can actually end racism. The most effective way to end racism in my mind is to create more of a homogenous community through interracial marriage/breeding. It's harder to be racist when your grandchild is another race. Not impossible. But harder. But what we can do is consciously choose to draw our tribal affiliations along lines other than race. But that has its own unintended consequences. For example, we always talk about anti Semitism, but the source of anti Semitism is a group of people who isolate themselves from the wider community in very important ways - one of them being not marrying outside the tribe. As long as they don't hold power or influence, they can be seen as harmless, although likely discardable. But as soon as Jews grew to have power and influence on some level, they immediately became targets of suspicion and violence. As someone who considers myself a rabid philosemitist, the last thing I want is for Jews to give up their identity, intermarry with non Jews to the point where they're assimilated into the wider culture, until there's no such thing as Jewish culture and identity remaining. However, without that they will always encounter some level of racism, because they set themselves apart in ways that when they hold power it's going to naturally create resentment, envy, and a sense that we're not all on a level playing field, regardless of merit. 
In any case, there's a demonization going on of anything seen as the values, traditions, and power sources for the white patriarchy. And then we seem shocked on some level when a counter movement springs up with a number of sympathizers that says these things have a certain level of importance, and we don't appreciate them being completely vilified. That's how human nature works. 
So if we all choose to double down with this attitude, it's not going to isolate and diminish the movement going on in support of what I'd call the white tribe. That movement is going to grow and become even more intransigent and capable of worse things. With the concomitant reactions that produces in the other side. Which then leads to horrible things like purges and mass killings in their final form. 
What we need is to find a path towards some commonality that doesn't involve race. Some shared goal, ideal, or best of all, a common enemy. Something we all aspire to in a sense of community. But my feeling is we're going to head to a lot of darkness before we ever reach that. The biggest hope I have is that this country has seemed to produce the leader it needed most at the time of its greatest need. Perhaps at some point someone comes along - another Abraham Lincoln, for example - to create a powerful shift in a new direction. I don't see anyone even remotely resembling that on the horizon, but heck, Lincoln wasn't seen that way by a lot of folks when he was elected, either.  

That’s a long way to say “if black prior had been the dominant power structure here instead of white people, they would have behaved shittily too.” Probably correct, but irrelevant. White people were, and retain, the power structure.
And they’ve never, ever, come even close to acknowledging that completely. There can be no reconciliation without responsibility. That is true for every single relationship.
So, how is the white power structure responding to that truth? By LITERALLY banning discussion of the things that actually happened (you know, like the actual reasons for secession, as stated by the people who did it, or even mentioning the fact that one of the “accomplishments” of white society last century was to lynch 30k to 40k black people, etc).
For literally hundreds of years, white society has enslaved black people, murdered them, subjected them to Jim Crow status, and more. And now, after a few decades of laws that only STOPPED the worst of that negative behavior, and done little to rectify the centuries of systemic advantages/disadvantages that system created.
So, “the negroes aren’t conciliatory enough” strikes me as some arrogant bullshit. Because it’s not even meant sincerely. It’s just an excuse to keep on keeping on without taking any responsibility or ownership of the society we’ve inherited. But keep on blaming black people for still wrestling with (and being resentful about) the effects of 300+ years of systematic cruelty and oppression. That seems…super smart and fair.

[SL Xpress 7505]

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

That’s a long way to say “if black prior had been the dominant power structure here instead of white people, they would have behaved shittily too.” Probably correct, but irrelevant. White people were, and retain, the power structure.
And they’ve never, ever, come even close to acknowledging that completely. There can be no reconciliation without responsibility. That is true for every single relationship.
So, how is the white power structure responding to that truth? By LITERALLY banning discussion of the things that actually happened (you know, like the actual reasons for secession, as stated by the people who did it, or even mentioning the fact that one of the “accomplishments” of white society last century was to lynch 30k to 40k black people, etc).
For literally hundreds of years, white society has enslaved black people, murdered them, subjected them to Jim Crow status, and more. And now, after a few decades of laws that only STOPPED the worst of that negative behavior, and done little to rectify the centuries of systemic advantages/disadvantages that system created.
So, “the negroes aren’t conciliatory enough” strikes me as some arrogant bullshit. Because it’s not even meant sincerely. It’s just an excuse to keep on keeping on without taking any responsibility or ownership of the society we’ve inherited. But keep on blaming black people for still wrestling with (and being resentful about) the effects of 300+ years of systematic cruelty and oppression. That seems…super smart and fair.

I'm not talking about what is fair. I'm talking about what is going to be effective in terms of bringing about a functioning society. 

Look, it's not like the dynamics are going to change because I posted my thoughts. I've been in plenty of rooms where I was the only white person working with people in terms of the impacts of racism, and not once has everyone looked at me, nodding their heads, going, "No, no. I see your point." So we'll continue to go down this path.

What I am saying is that demanding that white people take responsibility for the actions people of their race performed historically is not the path to the end of racism. It's the path towards stronger racial identities, more resentment, more hate, and more consequences from that. 

At the same time, the level of ignorance white people have - and I include myself here even if I've spent a significant portion of my life trying to educate myself - regarding the pervasiveness of racism is inestimable. I remember in the 80s and 90s going through Diversity in Action multi week seminars - and even teaching them at one point - where we were bombarded with imagery that existed on a daily basis that I'd never identified as racist, but absolutely was. It's just that my white self could never see it because I wasn't affected by it. I remember growing up in the 70s in a white suburban neighborhood created explicitly through white flight after busing became enforced - which I was completely ignorant of. I used to say it was so WASP-y we all thought Catholicism was a cult group. Which was true. We'd go to the local country club - every new white flight suburban neighborhood with a golf course had one - and lo and behold, every single employee in there was black. Every one of them. And this was true nationwide. What atmosphere was this trying to emulate? Does Gone With the Wind ring a bell? And when I bring it up to friends I grew up with, it's consistently a revelation to them, even if they're steeped in trying to work through how they fit in the current racial narrative, and what can they do to contribute to its healing. If you're not a minority, you just can't even begin to pretend you understand what it's like to go through that, and especially the white/black history in this country created through the institution of slavery and then perpetrated by Jim Crow laws.

But I will still say that the more we emphasize the inherent evil of being white, or being white male, and how people of that tribe have a responsibility to make restitution for the evils performed by their alleged ancestors, the farther we get from actually reducing racism in this country. But maybe that's not the goal. Maybe a sense of justice, or fairness, or righting a wrongness, takes priority. I just think there will always be a certain amount of moving the goal posts that imparts. We're never going to get to a place where the people who feel historically wronged look up and go, "Okay, we're good now." 

[Brisketexan 104636]

32 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

But I will still say that the more we emphasize the inherent evil of being white, or being white male, and how people of that tribe have a responsibility to make restitution for the evils performed by their alleged ancestors,

Wrong, and straw man.

The point of opening our eyes, and truly understanding and realizing the world that 300+ years of systemic racism created, is not to tell white people they are inherently evil, or that you in particular owe some monetary restitution to black Americans.

The point is to take ownership of the society we have all created, which includes its warts.  The point is to acknowledge those warts, the pain they have caused, and to express genuine empathy towards those upon whom that pain was inflicted.  The point is for us to to the work of reconciliation, and to work -- collectively -- to help remedy the systematic disadvantages that created.

Look, all-in-all, white Americans were born on second base (no, not all -- but collectively).  And black Americans were born still at home plate, up to bat (but even then, that's really just post-the Civil Rights Act -- we banned them from even getting to bat until then).  Our job, as a society is to say "Man...I see that 1) I am standing on second base.  That's really a nice advantage.  And 2) I see that you are still at the plate, and you've barely even had the bat in your hands.  So, 3) how about I come over there, help you work on your stance, give you some education and advice on what pitches are coming, and hell, maybe let's take some practice swings together to help you get in the groove."

That's 90% of the battle.  Acknowledge your good deal.  Acknowledge their raw deal.  Make some effort to try to get them to a point where they can meaningfully catch up.  That's all.  It's not about you needing to feel guilty, or evil, for being born on second.  You were.  That's life.  What it DOES mean is that you have an obligation to help those who weren't, PARTICULARLY those who weren't so lucky, in large part because of the very advantages your ancestors had over them that helped you be born on second base.

If my grandfather spent his whole goddamn life hitting my opponent in a race in the kneecaps (and even worse, as a result of that kneecapping, he made more money and had more prosperity that helped me be born into a house of plenty, with good nutrition, training, etc.), and then I line up to race against that guy, with the busted fucking knees and the horrible limp, and said "hey, we're both standing at the same starting line, fair is fair and quit your bitching," I'd be a fucking asshole.  White America should stop being assholes.  That would be a GREAT start.

[Catdaddyhorn 3444]

45 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

I'm not talking about what is fair. I'm talking about what is going to be effective in terms of bringing about a functioning society. 

Look, it's not like the dynamics are going to change because I posted my thoughts. I've been in plenty of rooms where I was the only white person working with people in terms of the impacts of racism, and not once has everyone looked at me, nodding their heads, going, "No, no. I see your point." So we'll continue to go down this path.

What I am saying is that demanding that white people take responsibility for the actions people of their race performed historically is not the path to the end of racism. It's the path towards stronger racial identities, more resentment, more hate, and more consequences from that. 

At the same time, the level of ignorance white people have - and I include myself here even if I've spent a significant portion of my life trying to educate myself - regarding the pervasiveness of racism is inestimable. I remember in the 80s and 90s going through Diversity in Action multi week seminars - and even teaching them at one point - where we were bombarded with imagery that existed on a daily basis that I'd never identified as racist, but absolutely was. It's just that my white self could never see it because I wasn't affected by it. I remember growing up in the 70s in a white suburban neighborhood created explicitly through white flight after busing became enforced - which I was completely ignorant of. I used to say it was so WASP-y we all thought Catholicism was a cult group. Which was true. We'd go to the local country club - every new white flight suburban neighborhood with a golf course had one - and lo and behold, every single employee in there was black. Every one of them. And this was true nationwide. What atmosphere was this trying to emulate? Does Gone With the Wind ring a bell? And when I bring it up to friends I grew up with, it's consistently a revelation to them, even if they're steeped in trying to work through how they fit in the current racial narrative, and what can they do to contribute to its healing. If you're not a minority, you just can't even begin to pretend you understand what it's like to go through that, and especially the white/black history in this country created through the institution of slavery and then perpetrated by Jim Crow laws.

But I will still say that the more we emphasize the inherent evil of being white, or being white male, and how people of that tribe have a responsibility to make restitution for the evils performed by their alleged ancestors, the farther we get from actually reducing racism in this country. But maybe that's not the goal. Maybe a sense of justice, or fairness, or righting a wrongness, takes priority. I just think there will always be a certain amount of moving the goal posts that imparts. We're never going to get to a place where the people who feel historically wronged look up and go, "Okay, we're good now." 

I'm of two minds with @SL Xpress 's comments above. On one hand, I recognize the dichotomy between say, the MLK approach and the Malcolm X approach, and the apparent effectiveness of the "kids gloves approach" of the former compared to the latter.  But then on the other hand I wonder if anything less than a full throated catharsis in approaching these issues will ever resolve the matter fully.  For most of my life I've sided with some of the reasoning SLX appeals to above, but to what end? How effective is it really other than just cloaking the ugliness beneath? I don't know, maybe reaching my mid 40s and the past 15 years of American political life has just made me more reluctant to continue soft shooing these issues, but I'm tired of pretending that everything is cool with how things are.

And I disagree with the notion that our genetic makeup resulted in the racial dichotomy that we have here today. Any surface level reading of history, be it the era of reconstruction, or even the remedial study of poverty stricken, multiracial neighborhoods of 1960s Chicago will show that there were numerous instances throughout American history where people were able to overcome their "genetic predisposition" for racial conflict and work together for the greater good. The powerful used race as a wedge issue back then just as readily as they use it today. Had they used some other issue to wedge up disagreement among the masses we'd be divided using different categories today rather than race. 

Edited February 25, 2023 by Catdaddyhorn

[SL Xpress 7505]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Wrong, and straw man.

The point of opening our eyes, and truly understanding and realizing the world that 300+ years of systemic racism created, is not to tell white people they are inherently evil, or that you in particular owe some monetary restitution to black Americans.

The point is to take ownership of the society we have all created, which includes its warts.  The point is to acknowledge those warts, the pain they have caused, and to express genuine empathy towards those upon whom that pain was inflicted.  The point is for us to to the work of reconciliation, and to work -- collectively -- to help remedy the systematic disadvantages that created.

Look, all-in-all, white Americans were born on second base (no, not all -- but collectively).  And black Americans were born still at home plate, up to bat (but even then, that's really just post-the Civil Rights Act -- we banned them from even getting to bat until then).  Our job, as a society is to say "Man...I see that 1) I am standing on second base.  That's really a nice advantage.  And 2) I see that you are still at the plate, and you've barely even had the bat in your hands.  So, 3) how about I come over there, help you work on your stance, give you some education and advice on what pitches are coming, and hell, maybe let's take some practice swings together to help you get in the groove."

That's 90% of the battle.  Acknowledge your good deal.  Acknowledge their raw deal.  Make some effort to try to get them to a point where they can meaningfully catch up.  That's all.  It's not about you needing to feel guilty, or evil, for being born on second.  You were.  That's life.  What it DOES mean is that you have an obligation to help those who weren't, PARTICULARLY those who weren't so lucky, in large part because of the very advantages your ancestors had over them that helped you be born on second base.

If my grandfather spent his whole goddamn life hitting my opponent in a race in the kneecaps (and even worse, as a result of that kneecapping, he made more money and had more prosperity that helped me be born into a house of plenty, with good nutrition, training, etc.), and then I line up to race against that guy, with the busted fucking knees and the horrible limp, and said "hey, we're both standing at the same starting line, fair is fair and quit your bitching," I'd be a fucking asshole.  White America should stop being assholes.  That would be a GREAT start.

But that is not what happens. If you do not understand there is a narrative out there that white people - and white men specifically - are inherently evil, you haven't been paying attention. I've been hearing about it for 40 years, and that narrative has only become stronger.

One thing that became abundantly clear in being part of so many discussions and activities around race, is how drawn we are to identify ourselves as victims. It's not limited to race, but that's where the realization was forced on me. The more that narrative is forced, the more bonding that occurs among aggrieved whites/white males, who see themselves as facing something akin to an existential threat, and responding according to those perceptions. 

There is also never going to be a society where we're all standing at home plate. Even just the first few years after birth are so critical to the formation of our brain and our ability to reach our maximum potential. To create that environment would require us to take every child from their parents at birth and put them in government housing with as close to the same upbringing as possible. Which is obviously a horrific solution and should never be implemented.

But without that it's parents' genetically driven desire to give their progeny every advantage over their competitors. The fact that the difference can mean such a stark outcome merely in the first three years of our existence means that gap is never going to be closed. It doesn't mean we can't try, but when we try to make it about equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity, we're automatically going to anger the population that feels like the metrics aren't about meritocracy. But if we emphasize measurements that are color blind, we automatically favor the groups that possess inherent advantages in the first place. So there will always be a push/pull there. 

I'm not saying it can't be navigated, but the best result would be some kind of pendulum, where it swings back and forth depending on which tribes hold the greater power, but that there's a constant shifting of power back and forth between competing tribes. Which, idealistically, is the benefit of having some kind of representative government, as long as it doesn't fall prey to the tyranny of the majority as representative governments so often do. 

The worst result is the path Republicans have been on for the last 30 years - but in their defense this was after being out of power in the legislative branch for 60 years. But the decision to become combative and belligerent rather than partners in government. The move to pull in ideological purists as significant portions of their voting bloc. The massive move towards gerrymandering enabled by finally winning multiple state legislatures for the first time since reconstruction, and employing new invented computing power and database software, and most recently the efforts towards voter suppression - is about creating a status of being in power permanently. 

I am against any party being in power into perpetuity. I think that is the worst outcome of all. There needs to be a shifting sense of priorities, and a constant reappraisal of what we find important as a society. That is only constructively done when there is a consistent shift in who wields power. 

[Satchel 6908]

I have come to understand racism as a phenomenon that defies explanation, because it seems to infect all aspects of the psyche Its most pernicious results can be seen in the intra racial racism and self hatred found in a number of black people all over the globe.

 

[Brisketexan 104636]

6 minutes ago, Satchel said:

I have come to understand racism as a phenomenon that defies explanation, because it seems to infect all aspects of the psyche Its most pernicious results can be seen in the intra racial racism and self hatred found in a number of black people all over the globe.

 

Racism is just tribalism made easy.

Tribalism has a distinct biological and evolutionary advantage....until it doesn't.  Once we shrank the globe/created pluralist societies, a way of doing things that was once advantageous is now destructive.  Lots of things are like that.  Would be nice if we weren't too stupid to figure it out.  But, sadly, we are.

[SL Xpress 7505]

23 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

I'm of two minds with @SL Xpress 's comments above. On one hand, I recognize the dichotomy between say, the MLK approach and the Malcolm X approach, and the apparent effectiveness of the "kids gloves approach" of the former compared to the latter.  But then on the other hand I wonder if anything less than a full throated catharsis in approaching these issues will ever resolve the matter fully.  For most of my life I've sided with some of the reasoning SLX appeals to above, but to what end? How effective is it really other than just cloaking the ugliness beneath? I don't know, maybe reaching my mid 40s and the past 15 years of American political life has just made me more reluctant to continue soft shooing these issues, but I'm tired of pretending that everything is cool with how things are.

And I disagree with the notion that our genetic makeup resulted in the racial dichotomy that we have here today. Any surface level reading of history, be it the era of reconstruction, or even the remedial study poverty stricken multiracial neighborhoods of 1960s Chicago will show that were numerous instances throughout American history where people were able to overcome their "genetic predisposition" for racial conflict and work together for the greater good. The powerful used race as a wedge issue back then just as easily as they use today. Had they used some other issue to wedge up disagreement among the masses we'd be divided using different categories today other than race. 

I don't know that I'd say there is a genetic disposition towards racial conflict as much as I'd say there is a genetic disposition towards tribal formations. It just so happens that one of the easiest is to identify based on appearance, for obvious reasons. 

But if you go back and look at human history and pre history through the fossil record, there is absolutely evidence of tribal conflict which ended in extermination. Certainly species conflict, such as with Homo Erectus and Neanderthals, to name two of the most prominent. 

Name one society that has successfully navigated multiple tribes making up their composition over their entire history. At some point they all break down into some form of tribal conflict. And those are only the ones that actually manage to incorporate multiple tribes in the first place. The vast preponderance of successful societies have been mostly homogenous, or with a clear and permanent delineation between those in power, and those who are not. With often violent results when that power dynamic one day dramatically shifts.  

The United States is by far the country that has historically navigated multiple tribes the most successfully. And yet we concentrate on how terrible we've been. For good reason. We have aspirations to do better than we have. That's not a bad thing. That's a good thing. But it doesn't belie the fact that history has not looked favorably in trying to incorporate multiple tribes into a functioning society in more a less a collaborative process. It's extremely difficult and challenging, to the point of saying it hasn't really been done all that well. Ever. 

My point is not that we can't overcome racism. My point is that there is a natural disposition for tribal identity, and that one of those significant tribes is our racial history. So there has to be an extreme conscious effort by everyone involved to overcome that natural disposition. And what we have instead, based on my observations, is a growing reluctance to overcome that, and a big part of that growing reluctance is the narrative being put forth by people who are ostensibly trying to fight racism. 

 

[mchookem 16230]

this discussion is good. 

but i'm reminded of the wise, deep words of Kimberly Jones...

"...they are lucky that what black people are looking for is equality and not revenge."

 

 

 

[SL Xpress 7505]

15 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Racism is just tribalism made easy.

Tribalism has a distinct biological and evolutionary advantage....until it doesn't.  Once we shrank the globe/created pluralist societies, a way of doing things that was once advantageous is now destructive.  Lots of things are like that.  Would be nice if we weren't too stupid to figure it out.  But, sadly, we are.

I mean, that's the evolution of life in a nutshell in many ways. A species evolves so successfully it wipes out its food source or otherwise faces a challenge it can't overcome, then the next batch comes along. Or the next batch comes along and wipes out the very successful species that preceded it. 

Let's face it. Our chances of making life untenable for this many human beings to exist on this planet at one time are pretty fucking good one way or another. On a long enough timeline I'd put it at 100%. 

[safe sex 11685]

33 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

But that is not what happens. If you do not understand there is a narrative out there that white people - and white men specifically - are inherently evil, you haven't been paying attention. I've been hearing about it for 40 years, and that narrative has only become stronger.

I've appreciated a lot in your recent posts, but cannot eyeroll enough at this. This is not a real thing. Holy shit.

[SL Xpress 7505]

9 minutes ago, mchookem said:

this discussion is good. 

but i'm reminded of the wise, deep words of Kimberly Jones...

"...they are lucky that what black people are looking for is equality and not revenge."

 

 

 

So that was an extremely powerful and compelling speech. 

But if the whole country shared that attitude, how does that help move us away from racism? I'm not denying the right to hold that attitude, or even to act upon it. But I will point out that if acted upon a large part of the response isn't going to be, "You know what? You're right. You do have the right to burn down these stores and take whatever you want. I don't blame you for being so angry about it. Have at it. Here. We'll throw the first molotov for you in an act of solidarity."

It's going to be, "we're under violent attack. We either surrender or we fight back." Some are going to choose surrender. And some won't. And that's what we're seeing play out, IMO. 

But I still liked the speech. She's very gifted.